The Case Against Shojo- [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

ArmorArmadillo

2007-09-17, 12:12 PM

Okay, Shojo seems to have been enshrined as a spectacular leader; brilliant and machiavellian enough to be charming.
I, however, see him, as he's presented, to be a truly terrible leader-

The primary justification for his deceptive and manipulative rulership has been charged with keeping the Sapphire Gate, and with it the universe, in safety, and must therefore lie and cheat to get things done. (As opposed to the stuck-up paladins, who are too moralistic to be effective)
Furthermore, because he is assailed by ambitious nobles, he must feign senility to protect himself.

However, how could Shojo, knowing his own life was in danger, have no safeguards in place to protect the city after he was dead? Or how could have not trusted Hinjo to carry on his work?
If it is claimed that he had to keep the secret, why did he share it so freely with the Order of the Stick? Strangers can be trusted, but not his closest vassals?

Furthermore, although the whole universe was at stake, Shojo refused to be resurrected because he was enjoying the afterlife too much? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html) Essence of selfishness.

As for Miko, she, being a character meant to display the worst of the Paladin class, has taken most of the blame for messing things up. Yes, it was unequivocally wrong for her to kill Shojo, but he incited her to the actual act.
From the beginning he was given evidence of her extreme nature and propensity for excessive violence. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) He still chose to use her as a tool, lying to her about his true motives while confiding completely in those who, until necessary, he had told her were enemies that must be captured and brought to justice.

Furthermore, he made the deliberate choice to get the OOtS's attention through their capture and the use of a show trial; he could have sent them a simple message, but Shojo's methods were forceful and deceptive.

Of course, one could try to justify all of this by saying that "he did what he had to do to make everything work."
However, he failed. He set up a city that couldn't possibly survive outside of him, a tragic flaw of many leaders. And he built that city, and the order of paladins protecting it, out of lies and misinformation, and the backlash of that deception resulted in his death.

Is Shojo a bad person? I think so, but it is debatable. Is he a vile person? Probably not. Whatever the case, I think people should get away from the idea of him as the machiavellian mastermind who did a perfect job with SC and only failed because of Miko going nuts. He was a dictator, and only successful in the extremely short term.

slayerx

2007-09-17, 02:37 PM

However, how could Shojo, knowing his own life was in danger, have no safeguards in place to protect the city after he was dead? Or how could have not trusted Hinjo to carry on his work?
If it is claimed that he had to keep the secret, why did he share it so freely with the Order of the Stick? Strangers can be trusted, but not his closest vassals?
He could not tell trust Hinjo because hinjo is a lawful good paladin of the saphire guard, he would not stand for such actions. All of his closest vassels are those who either do not know about the gate and as such should not be told about it, or those who do know about the gate, but are sworn to oaths and rules that would fire back at Shojo should he eveal to them the truth. The OotS was his best bet as they were powerful, already knew about the gate, and would be more understanding to his methods.

He set up a city that couldn't possibly survive outside of him, a tragic flaw of many leaders.
Now this is rather unfair, as Azure city was attacked by a massive army the day after he died; an army that no one could have stopped not even himself, the city was doomed with or without Shojo. Who is to say that if he had died during less turbullant times, that the city would not have continued on? We have no idea how Hinjo would have ran things or how he would have dealt with assination plots; in the end, for all we know, things could have worked out.

Furthermore, although the whole universe was at stake, Shojo refused to be resurrected because he was enjoying the afterlife too much? Essence of selfishness.
That was Belkar's interpretation. in truth, what is more likely is that nothing good can really come of Shojo returning. Hinjo was already dead set of having him imprisioned to someday appear before a court to pay for his misdeeds; there was no way Hinjo was going to allow Shojo to lead Azure city in the upcoming battle... Shojo knew this and relized that there was no good he could do and thus stayed dead

From the beginning he was given evidence of her extreme nature and propensity for excessive violence. He still chose to use her as a tool, lying to her about his true motives while confiding completely in those who, until necessary, he had told her were enemies that must be captured and brought to justice.
He had little other choice... Miko was his most powerful paladin and as such as the only one suited for the job of bringing in the order of the stick... i mean, she was the only one who had a chance of strong arming them into coming. Hinjo or O-chul would have been the next best choices, but then it comes to question if they could pull off bringing in the order of the stick should they refuse to go... hell the two of them could have ended up dead.

Furthermore, he made the deliberate choice to get the OOtS's attention through their capture and the use of a show trial; he could have sent them a simple message, but Shojo's methods were forceful and deceptive.
I do believe Shojo pointed out that their was no one he could trust to deliever such a message. to deliver a message far away he would need someone high level who could survive the journey should they be attacked by monster, and that limits him to pretty much the paladins, whome of which he could not trust.

Did shojo make a few bad calls and handle some things carelessly... yeah... But considering how he was able to rule for decades with peace and prosperity, i'd have a hard time saying that he was a bad leader

chibibar

2007-09-17, 03:04 PM

The problem is that you just point out a lot of kingdom in real life. The King (or ruler) usually have a small loyal supporters and outside of that you have "loyal" vassals.

But these Vassals (in AC) are power hungry lord.....and very wealthy. Shojo needs these people to help keep order. As long everyone working together, then everyone is happy (the general populous) They (the lords) want to control the city and not ruin it. So all of them are fighting for power.

The Sapphire guards are Paladins. SG are also Lawful Good. Lying and cheating is not a way of the Paladin. Shojo has been at this WAY before Hinjo was born. It is kinda hard to change things. Shojo is able to manipulate the lords to "work against each other" politically but together for the greater good of the city as a whole.

This works out like many old monarchy style. It is very rare unless a "super" rulers like Alexander the great or Ceaser but afterward what happen? people are loyal to their General and the fall of the great leader, the generals fight each other for power.

Capfalcon

2007-09-17, 03:09 PM

Okay, Shojo seems to have been enshrined as a spectacular leader; brilliant and machiavellian enough to be charming.
I, however, see him, as he's presented, to be a truly terrible leader-

Ok, Fair enough. I think he was doing the best he could with no levels in PC Bad Ass.

The primary justification for his deceptive and manipulative rulership has been charged with keeping the Sapphire Gate, and with it the universe, in safety, and must therefore lie and cheat to get things done. (As opposed to the stuck-up paladins, who are too moralistic to be effective)
Furthermore, because he is assailed by ambitious nobles, he must feign senility to protect himself.

Well... The paladin DOES have divided loyalties... No one can argue that really... They can't ever do evil, AND they are charged with upholding the law.
Shojo only had to worry about doing good for the city and protecting the universe. Er... Saying "only" there does sound kind of silly, though.

However, how could Shojo, knowing his own life was in danger, have no safeguards in place to protect the city after he was dead? Or how could have not trusted Hinjo to carry on his work?

Uh. He did. The whole Sapphire guard didn't just quit when he got assassinated...

If it is claimed that he had to keep the secret, why did he share it so freely with the Order of the Stick? Strangers can be trusted, but not his closest vassals?

Because no reasonable person would ever reveal the secret that kept them out of jail because that secret let the trial be fixed, while if his "closest vassals" would send some ninjas to deliver a dagger to a vital organ?

Furthermore, although the whole universe was at stake, Shojo refused to be resurrected because he was enjoying the afterlife too much? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html) Essence of selfishness.

Granted, that would be slightly selfish, but if you note that it is actually :belkar: who says that’s why he won't come back. We really don't know why he won't come back, although the fact that he is going to be imprisoned and tried sure don't help I bet.

As for Miko, she, being a character meant to display the worst of the Paladin class, has taken most of the blame for messing things up. Yes, it was unequivocally wrong for her to kill Shojo, but he incited her to the actual act.
From the beginning he was given evidence of her extreme nature and propensity for excessive violence. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) He still chose to use her as a tool, lying to her about his true motives while confiding completely in those who, until necessary, he had told her were enemies that must be captured and brought to justice.

Um. I think that Miko has a pretty good track record before meeting the OOTS. And Miko is pursing what she beleives to be dangerous criminals out to destroy the universe. I don't think a Smite-On-Sight is out of line, to be honest. Miko does get deluded much, MUCH later.

Furthermore, he made the deliberate choice to get the OOtS's attention through their capture and the use of a show trial; he could have sent them a simple message, but Shojo's methods were forceful and deceptive.

Well, considering that they already told Miko to stuff it when they were being taken back to go to a legal trial, I can see just how well a letter saying

"Dear Roy,
Please come to a far away city where you know no one so we can tell you what you need to do to stop Xykon.
Thank you,
Shojo (King of Somewhere Else)
P.S. Your Father is here to say 'Hi', too."
would turn out. Yep, I bet Roy and the Order would set a new record for travel time.

Of course, one could try to justify all of this by saying that "he did what he had to do to make everything work."
However, he failed. He set up a city that couldn't possibly survive outside of him, a tragic flaw of many leaders. And he built that city, and the order of paladins protecting it, out of lies and misinformation, and the backlash of that deception resulted in his death.

Ok... So he was a bad leader because... he didn't foresee get assassinated by Miko. Because, you know, everyone saw that coming three comics before. And it fell solely because he was assassinated. Right. That giant
(They had so many troops that it was TACTICLY SOUND to have them killed and turn them into a ramp!) army of hobgoblins and undead had nothing to do with it.

Is Shojo a bad person? I think so, but it is debatable. Is he a vile person? Probably not. Whatever the case, I think people should get away from the idea of him as the machiavellian mastermind who did a perfect job with SC and only failed because of Miko going nuts. He was a dictator, and only successful in the extremely short term.

Well, he did keep the universe from falling apart, not get assassinated by the nobles who wanted to assassinate him over "Meat Loaf Day," had the paladins doing good, and figuring out how to serve Good without destroying his power base. I think he did pretty good, for someone with only levels in a non-badass class.

Edit: Well, I got simu-ed, and he took all my good points...

Surfing HalfOrc

2007-09-17, 03:13 PM

And there is also the question of:

Are all the lords working with Kubota? Or is this just a power play by one man and his forces?

If ALL the nobles have gotten together, Hinjo is in DEEP trouble. But once the non-Kubota aligned nobles get wind of Kubota's plan, they may well be willing to keep Hinjo IN power to keep Kubota OUT of power.

Yoritomo Himeko

2007-09-17, 06:03 PM

David Argall

2007-09-17, 06:39 PM

Okay, Shojo seems to have been enshrined as a spectacular leader; brilliant and machiavellian enough to be charming.
I, however, see him, as he's presented, to be a truly terrible leader-
Given the city endured, and apparently prospered, 47 years of his rule, this seems unlikely. We can say that this was despite him, but then we have problems blaming him for anything.

However, how could Shojo, knowing his own life was in danger, have no safeguards in place to protect the city after he was dead? Or how could have not trusted Hinjo to carry on his work?
He did trust Hinjo, just not in matters that would upset paladins.

Now there does seem to be a lack of training of Hinjo to take over in general. Despite being apparently the heir for the last decade, he takes orders from Miko and in general doesn't have much of a leadership role. But this may be a flaw of Hinjo's rather than Shojo. He may well find being #2 a lot more fun than being #1, who has to make all the hard decisions.

If it is claimed that he had to keep the secret, why did he share it so freely with the Order of the Stick? Strangers can be trusted, but not his closest vassals?
His closest supporters were absolutely opposed to what he was doing, as a violation of their oaths. As soon as they found out, they tossed him off the throne. Essentially his choice was don't tell them or don't do it.
The OOTS had to be told the secret in order to function as his lackies.

Furthermore, although the whole universe was at stake, Shojo refused to be resurrected because he was enjoying the afterlife too much? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0410.html) Essence of selfishness.
While we don't know Shojo's actual reason[s], there is no serious reason for him to come back. As noted, he was just going to be tossed in jail, tried, and at best imprisoned for the rest of his life. Assuming the afterlife was ok, why come back? Jail cell or heaven, either way, he was not going to be able to help anybody.

Furthermore, he made the deliberate choice to get the OOtS's attention through their capture and the use of a show trial; he could have sent them a simple message, but Shojo's methods were forceful and deceptive.
It is surprising that Shojo had no secret agents of his own. But he was old and faking senility. That may well have resulted in the paladins controlling who saw him, and of course cutting off unreliable CG types. So Shojo may have found himself without any agents who would not report to the paladins.
If so, he could not send them any simple message. The paladins would either refuse to deliver it, or simply depose Shojo. He had to use a fake story that would meet paladin approval.

He set up a city that couldn't possibly survive outside of him,
By no means shown. He ruled [not built. The city was far older than Shojo] a city that had trouble defending itself against a large invasion. That might mean he should have spent more on defense, but not that the city was going to fall apart with his death.

people should get away from the idea of him as the machiavellian mastermind who did a perfect job with SC and only failed because of Miko going nuts.
Miko going nuts killed him. He failed directly, because he assumed he was not going to be overheard, which was presumably the case, except that Miko was overriding all the normal delays that kept people away in her rush to warn of the approaching army.
More indirectly, he failed from assuming that his Gate was not the next target [or perhaps that his was adequately defended] and thus he should work to defend the other gates.

He was a dictator, and only successful in the extremely short term.
Since he ruled for 47 years, that is a rather long "extremely short term". As to dictator, well, that can be a general term that any non-elected ruler might qualify for. On any more specific definition, he seems not to qualify. He describes his rule as where most everybody assumes he is easily manipulated. And the deception here requires that there be a lot of truth to the statement.

Are all the lords working with Kubota? Or is this just a power play by one man and his forces?
Properly, they should be divided, with Kubota merely the leading noble. How much this will be shown in the story is open to question. But we are told of a generation of Shojo playing off noble vs noble, so the idea they are united has to be mistaken.

Charles Phipps

2007-09-17, 07:34 PM

The problem with Shojo is that being a Machiavellian schemer with plots within counterplots is always justified if it works. The problem is that the Machiavellian worldview assumes that your populous is fundamentally self-interested above all other things.

Shojo's city lost its leader because he basically was unable to come up with a sufficient lie or justification when the MOST DANGEROUS PEOPLE TO HIS PERSONAGE were to find out.

That's a significant lack of foresight.

Shojo had several main flaws....

1. He brainwashed Miko and other children with a false view of him.

2. He blanketly underestimated the intelligence of the Paladins.

3. He got off on humiliating his underlings.

....

2007-09-17, 07:52 PM

I doubt he realized Miko was so utterly unhinged that she'd slice him in two.

I mean, come on.

ArmorArmadillo

2007-09-17, 08:59 PM

Alright, points to address:

1. Shojo lied because Paladins would have been upset by his deceptions:
Those deceptions were only occuring because he was lying to the paladins; he made a choice to do so, he could have led the city in a straightforward and entirely legitimate way, and let the paladins know the truth of the gates and the situations.

2. Shojo had to lie, he had no choice; he has to lie to Hinjo to not upset him, he has to lie to the OOTS to get them there, he had to lie to Miko so she would do things right, he had to lie to the nobles to control them; notice a pattern?
He could have tried to deal with the problem of corrupt nobility with meaningful control and leadership, which doomed the city once the fighting started and they lost about half of their army.
He could have let the paladins share the secret and trust them to keep the secret; I'm sorry, but "they're lawful" doesn't stop them from loyally following their leader and keeping confidences. The deception wouldn't even have extended past keeping a secret from the nobles, who are corrupt. Paladins being LG means that they are going to choose protecting their legitimate leader over corrupt noble upstarts any day of the week.

4. If, after all that, the Paladins still can't be trusted with the truth, then he shouldn't be using them as weapons. You can't have your cake and eat it too, (That's a stupid expression, whatever)

Charles Phipps summed up the flaws of Machiavellian logic very well; Again, Shojo wasn't evil, but he was someone who infantilized those around him because he wasn't willing to trust or empower those he expected to use.

Charles Phipps

2007-09-17, 09:24 PM

I doubt he realized Miko was so utterly unhinged that she'd slice him in two.

I mean, come on.

True, on the other hand he was the one who recruited her and basically told her she was his chosen little girl....

...all the while mocking her for being stupid.

Miko was the product of inbreeding I'm sure and 10 pounds of mean in a 1 pound bag but Shojo bears some blame for harnessing it. Shojo is a bit of a Metal Gear Solid villain to be honest. The kind of politician who discards soldiers and warriors like tissue paper while mocking them for their stupid loyalty.

Shojo kept himself from being assassinated all this time, it's true. However, the man's skills as a leader need to be taken into the context that he consolidated everything around himself. Hinjo was left a complete dupe and thus unable to secure adequate control over the armies or the situation around him. A leader's chief responsibility after maintainance is making sure that things will be handled well when he's gone. Even if Hinjo had risen to power after Shojo died of old age, the city would still be screwed because he's a lovable dimwit while the Nobility were complete asshats.

All Shojo did was keep himself in power, not a small accomplishment, but hardly anything to write home about since it all fell apart when he died. Basically, his natural allies in protecting the Gates became his bitter enemies because he surrounded himself with people who couldn't be trusted (paradoxially because they're forthright and honest people)

Axl_Rose

2007-09-17, 09:32 PM

who are too moralistic to be effective)
Sorry to pick on little details but you mean they are too "moralistic" to be practical.

Secondly you already provided the answer to this

Strangers can be trusted, but not his closest vassals?
early on. You already said that his "closest" servants are by nature not effective. Furthermore, it seems that everyone knows the Oots are PCs. Or perhaps it would be more accurate if I said I haven't really recalled characters that don't know that they are PCs whereas I recall, on several occasions, instances where the Oots are recognized as PCs.

Charles Phipps

2007-09-17, 09:35 PM

early on. You already said that his "closest" servants are by nature not effective. Furthermore, it seems that everyone knows the Oots are PCs. Or perhaps it would be more accurate if I said I haven't really recalled characters that don't know that they are PCs whereas I recall, on several occasions, instances where the Oots are recognized as PCs.

Actually, they're only ineffective with Shojo's style of rule. Specifically, whatever Shojo says they can't be trusted with doing. Apparently, this is underhanded and dirty politics of some kind but it's never specified.

As its been amply demonstrated, the Paladins largely seem to be intelligent and practical people. It's just Miko is the stereotype that people like Shojo and Belkar think of when they think paladins.

Certainly, you have to wonder if Shojo REALLY was doing that much good pretending to be an insane old codger.

Yoritomo Himeko

2007-09-17, 11:13 PM

True, on the other hand he was the one who recruited her and basically told her she was his chosen little girl....

...all the while mocking her for being stupid.
And look where it ultimately got him. :smallfrown:

Miko was the product of inbreeding I'm sure and 10 pounds of mean in a 1 pound bag but Shojo bears some blame for harnessing it. Shojo is a bit of a Metal Gear Solid villain to be honest. The kind of politician who discards soldiers and warriors like tissue paper while mocking them for their stupid loyalty.

Shojo kept himself from being assassinated all this time, it's true. However, the man's skills as a leader need to be taken into the context that he consolidated everything around himself. Hinjo was left a complete dupe and thus unable to secure adequate control over the armies or the situation around him. A leader's chief responsibility after maintainance is making sure that things will be handled well when he's gone. Even if Hinjo had risen to power after Shojo died of old age, the city would still be screwed because he's a lovable dimwit while the Nobility were complete asshats.

All Shojo did was keep himself in power, not a small accomplishment, but hardly anything to write home about since it all fell apart when he died. Basically, his natural allies in protecting the Gates became his bitter enemies because he surrounded himself with people who couldn't be trusted (paradoxially because they're forthright and honest people)

But, why couldn't the Sapphire Guard realize that Xykon and Redcloak are the reasons why the gates should be kept secret. Didn't they think someone could come along and try to control/release the Snarl for their own gain? Like the Linear Guild?

The more I think about it, the more Shojo seems almost like a villain. Azure City doesn't seem like a "bastion of good" anymore.

David Argall

2007-09-18, 01:57 AM

Let's keep the facts in order.

Shojo ruled for 47 years. That is 10 US presidents, 1 of which got chased out of office, 3 rejected for re-election, and several others who deserved to be. He was surrounded by murderous nobles, most of whom thought they would make better lords, and by a bunch of paladins who insisted they had higher loyalties than to him. Simple survival tells us Shojo had something going for him.

We are only aware of one issue that happens during the last year of his time. That gives us a very biased picture. It is an important issue, but it is still just one issue.

Did Shojo mock his underlings? Where does he do so? As near as I can tell, this seems to be merely a charge made by Miko in the heat of her anger.

Did Shojo make Hinjo unfit for office? Again, where is the evidence? Having a crazy nut as the ruler, as long as he doesn't go around killing people, is a pretty good way to ease the replacement into the office. A hard hitting Hinjo would have simply started making the decisions his uncle was no longer "able" to make. Instead, Hinjo seems to just have always been the type who follows "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", and is hard to convince anything is broken.

Did his deceptions cause his fall? Yes, but notice how freakish that fall was. He had every reason to assume he was speaking in full privacy, and no way to know Miko was forcing her way into his presence with vital news that would not wait. Change the timing just a tiny bit and his deceptions are never discovered, and he gets a bonus for the city in the form of the PCs to help defend the city.
Given the odds, he was more at risk from random assassination, or simple old age. Unfortunately snake-eyes do happen, and did this time.

Could Shojo have convinced the paladins to follow his plans? They had taken, one and all, a solumn oath not to interfere with the other gates, which could be in perfect condition for all Shojo knew. He had only a tentative case to counter a clear violation of their ethics. His choices were not doing anything or not letting the paladins know what he was doing.

Shojo was just unlucky.

Iranon

2007-09-18, 05:49 AM

Shojo obfuscated himself into a corner quite early on: He's have to keep the senile act up indefinitely or be in more danger of assassination than he ever was before, and the paladins would have had a few choice words to say to his deception as well.

He didn't want to risk trusting people of his choice (keeping a select few in the know, perhaps creating a covert branch of the Sapphire Guard) and predictably ended up having to take considerably larger risks:

He had to rely on complete strangers in a matter he should have been prepared for.
He was forced to give imprecise orders (often to people unsuitable for the job anyway), drastically lowering the chance things will be done the way he wants them to.
He had no contingency plans for the point where his masquerade was finally revealed.
He neglected personal responsibilities (definitely to Hinjo, apparently to Miko) to keep the deception up.

Shojo was no fool, and I believe he was aware of the glaring flaws in his ruling style. The combination of a CG alignment (Belkar's estimate, I'm not entirely convinced but I'll run with it) with extreme paranoia hints at a moral dilemma:
It might be acceptable for him to fool his subjects because he knows he's trustworthy. On the other hand, an organised shadow government that is under nobody's control, unchecked because nobody knows it even exists? That could easily lead to oppression (something that's likely to follow if paranoia is coupled with the power to act on it decisively).

Maybe he even thought an almost powerless ruler forced to rule with an extremely light touch to be preferable. From what we've seen, Azure City was a reasonably happy and prosperous place despite the squabbling nobles... why fix something that works?

I would say his decisions were fundamentally flawed, that he was a very irresponsible ruler and that it was only a matter of time before he got himself killed and left the city in a mess.
On the other hand, his deception worked for years, possibly decades and the circumstances that led to his unmasking and summary execution were quite extraordinary. Also, he made considerable personal sacrifices for what he thought was the right thing and for a long time the results didn't look bad.

T.Titan

2007-09-18, 06:43 AM

Some one doesn't like to read history books it seems. Shojo was a very good leader, maybe even a great one, depending on what happened politically, socially and militarily during his rule, which he don't know.

Alfryd

2007-09-18, 07:43 AM

Y'know, I was going to fisk this whole thread to provide a point-by-point rebuttal, but... I can't really muster the enthusiasm.

(We don't know what Shojo's style of rule was during the decades prior to his near-assassination, so I don't consider them pertinent to the argument.)

The first argument in Shojo's favour is that he had no significant choice in his actions between one thing and another. Of course, a large part of why Shojo did what he did was because he had become too entangled in his own web of deception to ever escape it intact. All of which stems from his decision to fake senility.
It's possible- albeit uproven, and unprovable- that this decision was the only course available to Shojo in order to prevent dynastic war, through the assassination of either himself or his heirs and followers. To which I would counter; he was only delaying the inevitable.

Shojo was surely aware that he wasn't going to live forever, and without the foundation of a political system that allowed a ruler to decree in relative safety, his successor was doomed regardless. Hinjo would have neither the luxury nor inclination to indulge in coercion, fraud and blackmail to maintain his grip on power.

I don't know whether Shojo could have taken a different approach on the night of his near-death. But what did he have to lose from trying? In the worst case scenario, he, Hinjo, and most of the sapphire guard would be dead as Kubota or some other ambitious noble rose to power and ruled with an iron fist (one presumes.)
But that was going to happen anyway, unless drastic changes for the better were made.

The second argument made in Shojo's favour is that he was constrained by the demands of his position as head of the sapphire guard, and that to violate the tenets of his oath of office would, at minimum, alienate his supporters within this organisation. At worst, it could result in his imprisonment or execution.
To which I counter; his position as ruler of the city and as head of the sapphire guard are- in his own words- 'seperate and unrelated'. This means he can step down as one and retain his power as the other- if not, the distinction is meaningless.
Had Shojo so desired, he could appoint someone else as either the city's ruler, or head honcho of the boys (et gals) in blue, and orchestrate needed changes free from the constraints placed upon the paladin order. A natural choice would be to appoint Hinjo as head of the sapphire guard, then do whatever dirty business had to be done as ruler in order to check out the Gates and deal with the squabbling nobles. Family connections would most likely serve to ensure mutual loyalties.

Which brings me to the third argument:

Shojo was just unlucky.
Shojo was not unlucky. Luck is a random thing you can't predict. Shojo knew exactly what he was getting into from the outset and it was only a matter of time before the odds caught up with him. Shojo was lucky to get away with his charade for as long as he did.

You can argue that it was bad luck that his unmasking occured in such a way as to leave his emotionally fractured lead paladin under the wayward impression that he was somehow involved in the city's invasion, thus resulting in a grisly impromptu execution, but, apparently, Shojo feels he got the better end of the bargain there.

The fact of the matter is that, benevolent or otherwise, Shojo elected himself a dictator. Getting your way through deception is just as as much a denial of others' dignity as getting your way through force. It's just subtler. In neither case is a ruler subject to the willing consent of the ruled. And some fairly lofty justifications are needed to make this a lesser evil.

chibibar

2007-09-18, 09:19 AM

The problem is that Shojo is trying to save the world with the resources that he has on hand....

The lords - These people could care less of the world and just want to rule Azure City (assumption) Assassination attempt on food type? yea.... mostly the city.

The Paladins - These were set up by Soon to protect the gate at ALL cost and NEVER interfere with the other gates. That is a directive that a Paladin can never break (oath) even Miko follow this directive to the letter. Granted her "overall" view is a little obscure but all in all she still follow the directive to the end.

Shojo is trying to save the world once he notice that TWO of the gates has been destroy. This is not a good pattern. Shojo knew about the gate's origin and history behind it. The danger of the gates. The destruction it could have cause of the snarl was let loose from it. Shojo tries to investigate the situation BUT is not allow by the Paladins (his best and most trusted allies) because their oath prevents them :(

The lords? hah.... if they ever found out that the throne is actually a prison of one of the most powerful being in the universe that can kill a GOD...... then the powerplay would have involve controlling such an item (granted maybe they don't know how to use it but it is a symbol) of course at the same time while the lords are fighting over it, the "secret" would be advertise all over the world of its location (last I check it is a secret) This would keep the Paladins busy fighting the lords protecting it.

Charles Phipps

2007-09-18, 10:06 AM

Did Shojo mock his underlings? Where does he do so? As near as I can tell, this seems to be merely a charge made by Miko in the heat of her anger.

"Mister Scruffy needs his Cat Litter changed"

Did Shojo make Hinjo unfit for office? Again, where is the evidence? Having a crazy nut as the ruler, as long as he doesn't go around killing people, is a pretty good way to ease the replacement into the office. A hard hitting Hinjo would have simply started making the decisions his uncle was no longer "able" to make. Instead, Hinjo seems to just have always been the type who follows "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", and is hard to convince anything is broken.

Hinjo is a very viable candidate but in strict terms, a LN Hinjo who just had Kubata killed would have been better for Azure City in the long run. That's even going with the fact that the situation, as it was when Hijo inherited, was all Shojo's fault.

Of course, if Shojo survived one assassination attempt then he could PROVE Kubata was responsible and then there's no problem with taking him out even by the most freakish paladin.

Did his deceptions cause his fall? Yes, but notice how freakish that fall was.

Actually, his fall was positively assured. Seriously, he has to keep up the act of being insane 24-7 with no one being noticed.

Some one doesn't like to read history books it seems. Shojo was a very good leader, maybe even a great one, depending on what happened politically, socially and militarily during his rule, which he don't know.

Actually, from a strict historical perspective, the fact that he wasn't able to guarantee a smoothe transition and his nation was pillaged by foreign attack with insufficient resources to repel it almost immediately after his death automatically prevents Shojo from being labeled a great ruler.

Remember, Azure City had the resources to defend the city, they just didn't have them because no one followed his heir.

The Paladins - These were set up by Soon to protect the gate at ALL cost and NEVER interfere with the other gates. That is a directive that a Paladin can never break (oath) even Miko follow this directive to the letter. Granted her "overall" view is a little obscure but all in all she still follow the directive to the end.

This only means that Miko and the Paladins can't gey involved. Shojo isn't a paladin, there's no reason he should pretend to be one.

chibibar

2007-09-18, 10:36 AM

This only means that Miko and the Paladins can't get involved. Shojo isn't a paladin, there's no reason he should pretend to be one.

True, not sure why, I guess because the Paladin might not follow Shojo otherwise? I don't know the specific laws on that one.

Right, but then who can get involve? Certainly not the lords, and not hire thugs. The only people he could trust he couldn't hire them outright (without blowing his cover) are the OoTS............ Shojo definitely painted himself between a rock and a hard place. Of course something of this scale can't be predicted in advance.

Elfanatic

2007-09-18, 01:56 PM

Three arguments in Shojo's favour.

1: He is/was a lvl 14 aristocrat, is un-Lawfull and probably Chaotic Good. I never expected from him to crush a giant hobgoblin/undead army, led by an evil high priest and a lich who destroyed several highlevel PC's with ease. Least of all while still dealing with corrupt nobles and stuckup paladins.

It is easy to type with the benefit of hindsight. We now know that the American goverment had received warnings of the Twin Towers-attack before 11th september 2001. When we read that now, we can scarcely comprehend their stupidity. Before 11-7, it was just another wild theory who had thousands of little demented siblings.

Shojo simply could not have foreseen this happening. The Sapphire Guard thought that they had destroyed all threats to the Gates. And in the end, he did make the descision to hire some reliable and competent people: the Order of the Stick.

2: According to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html), the senelity-scheme only begun a few years ago. Which means that Shojo ruled Azure City for +- 40 years without/with less manipulation and lies than now. I don't think the nobles (and other enemies of the state) just woke up one morning and decided: "Hé, we hate Meat Loaf Day! Lets plot to overthrow Shojo!". They must have been at it since before Soon. And surviving for that long, while ruling the state effectievely, makes him competent in my book.

3: What if he is helping his people?

Eugene Greenhilt could freely walk (fly, float, whatever) the material world while dead. He couldn't do nothing while the Greenhilt ancestral sword was broken, but he could still watch and listen.

What if Shojo figured out who's pulling Kubato's strings? He could do more good being uncorpereal (spelling?) and finding out more about these fiends than in prison. He might even be now plotting in the Chaotic Good plane to help Hinjo and the denizens of Azure City.

....

2007-09-18, 04:28 PM

True, on the other hand he was the one who recruited her and basically told her she was his chosen little girl....

...all the while mocking her for being stupid.

Miko was the product of inbreeding I'm sure and 10 pounds of mean in a 1 pound bag but Shojo bears some blame for harnessing it. Shojo is a bit of a Metal Gear Solid villain to be honest. The kind of politician who discards soldiers and warriors like tissue paper while mocking them for their stupid loyalty.

Shojo kept himself from being assassinated all this time, it's true. However, the man's skills as a leader need to be taken into the context that he consolidated everything around himself. Hinjo was left a complete dupe and thus unable to secure adequate control over the armies or the situation around him. A leader's chief responsibility after maintainance is making sure that things will be handled well when he's gone. Even if Hinjo had risen to power after Shojo died of old age, the city would still be screwed because he's a lovable dimwit while the Nobility were complete asshats.

All Shojo did was keep himself in power, not a small accomplishment, but hardly anything to write home about since it all fell apart when he died. Basically, his natural allies in protecting the Gates became his bitter enemies because he surrounded himself with people who couldn't be trusted (paradoxially because they're forthright and honest people)

Soon was a paladin, he was the one who swore the Guard to protect the Gate. Shojo was doing the best he could with what he had. None of the paladins had the stones to lead that city and keep its nobles bickering over killing one another.

And as for Miko, if she couldn't deal with reality, well, thats her problem, not Shojo's (well, it kinda was, since he slice him open). She had plenty of chances to calm down and deal with reality, but he was nuts. Deranged. Insane. Shojo never expected to die like that, or he would have gotten someone to take care of things.

Charles Phipps

2007-09-18, 04:32 PM

And as for Miko, if she couldn't deal with reality, well, thats her problem, not Shojo's (well, it kinda was, since he slice him open). She had plenty of chances to calm down and deal with reality, but he was nuts. Deranged. Insane. Shojo never expected to die like that, or he would have gotten someone to take care of things.

No offense but Shojo's death was his own damn fault. Seriously, the guy...

A. picked the girl.
B. Trained her.
C. brainwashed her.
D. Taunted her

He orchestrated his own death the same way Saruman did Wormtongue.

....

2007-09-18, 04:36 PM

No offense but Shojo's death was his own damn fault. Seriously, the guy...

A. picked the girl.
B. Trained her.
C. brainwashed her.
D. Taunted her

He orchestrated his own death the same way Saruman did Wormtongue.

I'm not seeing this brainwashing thing you're seeing.

And he never taunted her either, he just didn't bow and scrape before her almighty insanity.

Shojo simply stood up to her and told her what he'd done. When she called him a traitor and a despot he got angry and defended himself. He's human, he didn't deal with the situation perfectly, but he did a damn sight better than the psycho samurai girl.

Charles Phipps

2007-09-18, 04:41 PM

I'm not seeing this brainwashing thing you're seeing.

Dude, when you pick a little girl from a monastary and educate her to believe she's THE CHOSEN ONE OF THE GODS and otherwise "Special" while all the while laughing behind her back, that's brainwashing to me.

And he never taunted her either, he just didn't bow and scrape before her almighty insanity.

???

Where the **** is this whole "Shojo never made fun of the paladins" stuff coming from? He held them in contempt and BLISTERING contempt as well.

Shojo simply stood up to her and told her what he'd done. When she called him a traitor and a despot he got angry and defended himself. He's human, he didn't deal with the situation perfectly, but he did a damn sight better than the psycho samurai girl.

Who cares about how the man died, he would have had his head chopped off soon enough anyway. I think the previous 20+ years of screwing with his followers is a bit more relevant.

David Argall

2007-09-18, 04:44 PM

Now the idea that Shojo was playing "after me, the deluge" is misreading th situation. There was simply a combination of events that would have stressed any system.

Assume a more normal situation: Shojo dies in his sleep or is caught in his lies and deposed by the paladins in favor of Hinjo. What evidence do we have that there would be more than the usual government mess? There of course would be plots and assassination attempts, but that had been the case since before Shojo was born. Where is the evidence of any terrible collapse?
Assume Miko rushes into the throne room a moment before or after the incriminating conversation and Shojo is not removed from office. Do we really see much difference in the result? Redcloak likely still overruns the city. The nobles still have full motive for leaving in advance... We again hardly have to change anything.

We routinely assume the PCs are the center of the action, but in this last book, they were really more like the helpless witnesses to history, not the makers of it.

Originally Posted by David Argall
Did Shojo mock his underlings? Where does he do so?

"Mister Scruffy needs his Cat Litter changed"
This is not mocking. Misuse, maybe, but mockery is expressing scorn or ridicule, not giving them distasteful tasks.

a LN Hinjo who just had Kubata killed would have been better for Azure City in the long run.
A LN Hinjo would still be stuck with a lack of proof. At most Hinjo has the word of a dead ninja who didn't talk to Kubota. If he has useful magic to prove the case, then Kubota has useful magic to counter that proof. Since our LN Hinjo faces the burden of proving the crime, knowing that Kubota did it is just not enough.

Azure City had the resources to defend the city, they just didn't have them because no one followed his heir.
Not at all. The desertion of the nobles was no good thing, but the odds were bad for the city with or without the nobles. We have Kubota on record on the point.

3: What if he is helping his people?

Eugene Greenhilt could freely walk (fly, float, whatever) the material world while dead. He couldn't do nothing while the Greenhilt ancestral sword was broken, but he could still watch and listen.

What if Shojo figured out who's pulling Kubato's strings? He could do more good being uncorpereal (spelling?) and finding out more about these fiends than in prison. He might even be now plotting in the Chaotic Good plane to help Hinjo and the denizens of Azure City.
Now one of several problems here is that Eugene can't free walk the matrial world. He is confined to some very limited conditions, mostly limited to the family sword. He played fast and loose with the rules to get to the city and now that he is back upstairs, the assumption is he is under severe restraint and may not be able to leave at all. So it is doubtful Shojo can come back.

Nor is it likely he ever knew there was somebody guiding Kubota's activities. As far as we know, Kubota was simply the leading noble, and the one most likely to replace Hinjo if he were to die in some sudden "incident". We might posit that he has shown a surprising rise from just another noble to being The noble, but we still don't have serious reason to suspect some hidden mastermind. There had always been such a up and coming noble.

....

2007-09-18, 04:45 PM

Dude, when you pick a little girl from a monastary and educate her to believe she's THE CHOSEN ONE OF THE GODS and otherwise "Special" while all the while laughing behind her back, that's brainwashing to me.

???

Where the **** is this whole "Shojo never made fun of the paladins" stuff coming from? He held them in contempt and BLISTERING contempt as well.

Who cares about how the man died, he would have had his head chopped off soon enough anyway. I think the previous 20+ years of screwing with his followers is a bit more relevant.

He told her that when she was a kid because, well, she was chosen by the Gods. SHE COULD HEAL PEOPLE BY LAYING HER HANDS UPON THEM!

He did make fun of paladins, but Miko never, ever heard him make fun of them. All she heard was him telling the truth, which is that paladins couldn't do the things he did to protect his people.

And he didn't screw with his followers, he screwed with the Sapphire Guard.

Why? Because all they cared about was protecting the gate. Shojo cared about protecting his city and the people inside of it. It wasn't his fault that Soon Kim was stupid enough to build a city filled with innocent people around a door to the prison of a god-eating monster.

Charles Phipps

2007-09-18, 04:48 PM

This is not mocking. Misuse, maybe, but mockery is expressing scorn or ridicule, not giving them distasteful tasks.

Except, it's done deliberately to humiliate and degrade him as opposed to the cat litter really needing to be changed.

A LN Hinjo would still be stuck with a lack of proof. At most Hinjo has the word of a dead ninja who didn't talk to Kubota. If he has useful magic to prove the case, then Kubota has useful magic to counter that proof. Since our LN Hinjo faces the burden of proving the crime, knowing that Kubota did it is just not enough.

Then whatever alignment allows him to kill him and move on to helping the city.

Not at all. The desertion of the nobles was no good thing, but the odds were bad for the city with or without the nobles. We have Kubota on record on the point.

Despite all their troubles, they managed to wipe out 1/3rd of the Hobgoblins. Depending on the size of Kubota's forces then this could have meant the difference between life and death.

I think Shojo was a very capable politician but he's not some ideal one because the man was motivated by his flaws just as much as everyone else. In Shojo's case, his flaws are that he really doesn't accord ANY respect to his underlings and frankly enjoys humiliating them. That's not necessarily a DAMNING flaw.

However, when you're leading a religious order for all intents and purposes, then you're a fool if you think people won't take it personally.

Shojo couldn't even manage a Jim Bakker "The Devil Tempted me!" defense.

Yoritomo Himeko

2007-09-18, 05:43 PM

"Mister Scruffy needs his Cat Litter changed"

Hinjo is a very viable candidate but in strict terms, a LN Hinjo who just had Kubata killed would have been better for Azure City in the long run. That's even going with the fact that the situation, as it was when Hinjo inherited, was all Shojo's fault.

Of course, if Shojo survived one assassination attempt then he could PROVE Kubata was responsible and then there's no problem with taking him out even by the most freakish paladin.

But Hinjo would still need proof in order to deal with Kubota. Otherwise, it would be unlawful to have him executed, maybe even evil. As I said a couple of weeks ago, Hinjo can't just have people killed just because he thinks they might be against him.

Hinjo is only a viable candidate because of his relation to Shojo, otherwise no one would think he should rule Azure City.

Fawkes

2007-09-18, 05:50 PM

It always appeared to me that Shojo really did care about Miko. When Roy calls her a bitch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html), Shojo excuses her and basically says, okay, she's a bit overzealous, sorry. When she accuses him of treason, he remains calm until she accuses him of trying to destroy the city. Even then, he doesn't yell at her, mock her, insult her, or raise his voice. He makes one crack about how she couldn't detect his sarcasm, but that was out of exasperation, not malice. He worries about her stability, but does not ever call her insane or stupid. Even when she is about to kill him, he doesn't appear to be angry at her.

David Argall

2007-09-18, 10:43 PM

Except, it's done deliberately to humiliate and degrade him as opposed to the cat litter really needing to be changed.
But that is not why it is done. The idea is to get him to do what Shojo wants, which is not to record the new prisoners.

Despite all their troubles, they managed to wipe out 1/3rd of the Hobgoblins. Depending on the size of Kubota's forces then this could have meant the difference between life and death.
It could have, but the hobs lost half or more of their losses just getting past the wall, while the defenders were losing far smaller numbers. Thereafter, the hobs pretty much ran over the defenders, slaughtering almost at will. When the castle blew, it probably killed a great many more hobs than defenders.
Given these base facts, the troops of the nobles could have easily simply been additional dead with almost no effect on the final hob figures. Now, I have gone on at length on how an extra thousand troops at the breech might have turned the battle around, but Hinjo had that thousand anyway, and didn't send them. So it's kinda unlikely they would be somewhere useful.

In Shojo's case, his flaws are that he really doesn't accord ANY respect to his underlings and frankly enjoys humiliating them.
Again, where is the evidence of this?

DeadmanXI

2007-09-19, 10:02 AM

"Mister Scruffy needs his Cat Litter changed"

Oh, c'mon. I've cleaned cat boxes, it's unpleasant, but hardly the humiliation you're making out. If the Paladins were that upset by it (Note: They weren't, particularly) they needed a lesson in humility anyhow. If I recall correctly, his actual reason for ordering it was also to get himself alone with the OoTS, which is hardly a petty reason.

Hinjo is a very viable candidate but in strict terms, a LN Hinjo who just had Kubata killed would have been better for Azure City in the long run. That's even going with the fact that the situation, as it was when Hijo inherited, was all Shojo's fault.

Of course, if Shojo survived one assassination attempt then he could PROVE Kubata was responsible and then there's no problem with taking him out even by the most freakish paladin.

As others have mentioned, LN is not the Alignment you're thinking of here. More like a ruthless NG, or even a less restricted LG (like Roy). You also make the assumption that an unsuccessful assassination attempt could be traced back to it's originator. This assumption is unfounded and deeply incorrect, particularly since we're talking about ninja assassins here, y'know, the kind that commit suicide rather than talk?

Actually, his fall was positively assured. Seriously, he has to keep up the act of being insane 24-7 with no one being noticed.

He was faking senility, not madness. Y'know one thing senile people are noted for? Occasional (or even frequent) moments of lucidity. The only way it would be revealed by a single specific slip is if someone directly overheard him mention the ruse. Very small chance of that.

Actually, from a strict historical perspective, the fact that he wasn't able to guarantee a smoothe transition and his nation was pillaged by foreign attack with insufficient resources to repel it almost immediately after his death automatically prevents Shojo from being labeled a great ruler.

Remember, Azure City had the resources to defend the city, they just didn't have them because no one followed his heir.

True to an extent. Shojo clearly needed to put more effort into ensuring the succession, of course he probably thought he had more time.

This only means that Miko and the Paladins can't gey involved. Shojo isn't a paladin, there's no reason he should pretend to be one.

I suspect their oath includes preventing citizens of Azure City from such interference, it's not explicitly stated, but it's not a huge logical leap either.

Dude, when you pick a little girl from a monastary and educate her to believe she's THE CHOSEN ONE OF THE GODS and otherwise "Special" while all the while laughing behind her back, that's brainwashing to me.

Well, because she was. Also, no evidence he picked her. He clearly met knew Paladin candidates and spoke with them, but there's no evidence he decided on them.

???

Where the **** is this whole "Shojo never made fun of the paladins" stuff coming from? He held them in contempt and BLISTERING contempt as well.

VERY debatable. He spoke scathingly of them to the OoTS, but was likely quite frustrated with them at the time. Evidence suggests he actually rather liked them as individuals, it was just their rigidity he found annoying. You'll note he generally speaks well of them as individuals, it's just the institution he has problems with.

Who cares about how the man died, he would have had his head chopped off soon enough anyway. I think the previous 20+ years of screwing with his followers is a bit more relevant.

I'll repeat what others have said: More like 5 or 6 years. And where's the evidence his maneuvering did any harm?

Despite all their troubles, they managed to wipe out 1/3rd of the Hobgoblins. Depending on the size of Kubota's forces then this could have meant the difference between life and death.

I think Shojo was a very capable politician but he's not some ideal one because the man was motivated by his flaws just as much as everyone else. In Shojo's case, his flaws are that he really doesn't accord ANY respect to his underlings and frankly enjoys humiliating them. That's not necessarily a DAMNING flaw.

However, when you're leading a religious order for all intents and purposes, then you're a fool if you think people won't take it personally.

Shojo couldn't even manage a Jim Bakker "The Devil Tempted me!" defense.

Um, who does he humiliate? Ever? He's kinda sarcastic to the OoTS, but sarcasm is hardly a damning flaw in a leader. With the paladins he was universally either fairly polite and respectful or feigning senility, the sole exception being his snark at Miko's crazy theory, which is, I repeat, hardly grounds for being declared an unfit leader.

Charles Phipps

2007-09-19, 11:13 AM

Well, because she was. Also, no evidence he picked her. He clearly met knew Paladin candidates and spoke with them, but there's no evidence he decided on them.

Miko explicitly says he picked HER.

Um, who does he humiliate? Ever? He's kinda sarcastic to the OoTS, but sarcasm is hardly a damning flaw in a leader. With the paladins he was universally either fairly polite and respectful or feigning senility, the sole exception being his snark at Miko's crazy theory, which is, I repeat, hardly grounds for being declared an unfit leader.

Except, when he's feigning senile, he's NOT senile.

Geez, people, even BELKAR compliments Shojo on the fact he's screwing over the Paladins. One would think the fact that he considers them beneath his dignity enough to pretend to be out of his mind so he can carry on with business is enough disrespect to qualify.

Elfanatic

2007-09-19, 11:36 AM

Now one of several problems here is that Eugene can't free walk the matrial world. He is confined to some very limited conditions, mostly limited to the family sword. He played fast and loose with the rules to get to the city and now that he is back upstairs, the assumption is he is under severe restraint and may not be able to leave at all. So it is doubtful Shojo can come back.

Nor is it likely he ever knew there was somebody guiding Kubota's activities. As far as we know, Kubota was simply the leading noble, and the one most likely to replace Hinjo if he were to die in some sudden "incident". We might posit that he has shown a surprising rise from just another noble to being The noble, but we still don't have serious reason to suspect some hidden mastermind. There had always been such a up and coming noble.

Hmmm, good point. If Shojo did had a object or place he could 'visit', by way of an oath or somesuch, it would be the throne (destroyed), the palace (also destroyed) or Mr. Scruffy (missing in action).

....

2007-09-19, 12:45 PM

Miko explicitly says he picked HER.

I highly suspect that Shojo did his best to meet all the new paladins he could and sort of give them a pat on the head and tell them they were going to be great warriors, heros, ect...

Sort of like the President telling new recruits to the Army how awesome they'll be and how their country thanks them.

All the other paladins could deal with it. Since Miko was insane, she took it to mean that Shojo thought she was the greatest thing since sliced bread and therefore she was the chosen of everything and the only person in the universe who could understand what the gods were planning.

Miko was overzealous way before she met the OotS. Shinjo's biggest mistake was not realizing how insane she was.

Capfalcon

2007-09-19, 01:01 PM

Miko explicitly says he picked HER.

Right... We should take every word that comes out of Miss Crazy's mouth as being completely unbiased, and we should not think that she thought that she was special by going in front of the leader of the Guard.

And then, even if he did (which is still stretching it), he could have simply rubberstamped the references the monks made.

As other people have said, she was CHOSEN BY THE GODS! She can see evil! She can't get sick. Ever. She is inhumanly fearless. Etc. And it all comes in a neat little package with a return adress of "The Southern Gods." It's not their fault that it went to her head and she thought that she was their sole avatar who could do no wrong.

Geez, people, even BELKAR compliments Shojo on the fact he's screwing over the Paladins. One would think the fact that he considers them beneath his dignity enough to pretend to be out of his mind so he can carry on with business is enough disrespect to qualify.

So Belkar thinks that making the paladin clean the litterbox is funny, and Shojo says in the next line, "Hmmmm, That's not exactly reassuring."

It means that Belkar doesn't like paladins, and Shojo thinks of something to get O'Chull out of the room quickly so he can finish talking to the OotS. He even echos my favorite Roy quote, "Your approval fills me with shame.

And he was lying to the paladins because he was lying to the nobles. The loyal ones. You know, the ones who tried to kill him over Meat Loaf day, and who cut and ran when the city was under attack.

I don't think Shojo owes them too much honesty.

Charles Phipps

2007-09-19, 01:29 PM

Right... We should take every word that comes out of Miss Crazy's mouth as being completely unbiased, and we should not think that she thought that she was special by going in front of the leader of the Guard.

Just because Miko is a loon doesn't mean everything she says is wrong.

And Shojo seems to have explicitly visited the monastary she was at and presumably picked her.

Fawkes

2007-09-19, 01:58 PM

Shojo seems to have explicitly visited the monastary she was at and presumably picked her.

I have no doubt that Shojo did that. I think he did personally invite Miko into paladinhood. I also believe that he genuinely cared for Miko despite her faults, and expected big things from her. I suppose he got his wish.

T.Titan

2007-09-19, 02:09 PM

Actually, his fall was positively assured. Seriously, he has to keep up the act of being insane 24-7 with no one being noticed.

It's prob not that hard without the FBI tracking your every move... i remember a mafia don faking insanity for years until the feds managed to prove he wasn't on teh level... and those guys where looking for it too.

Actually, from a strict historical perspective, the fact that he wasn't able to guarantee a smoothe transition and his nation was pillaged by foreign attack with insufficient resources to repel it almost immediately after his death automatically prevents Shojo from being labeled a great ruler.

Alexander the Great... and he's only the first to come to mind. I'm sure i can find one that's been killed by some crazy underling too.
Bayezid I died a rather unheroic death but prior to being beaten by Timur Lenk he was undefeated (except that one time where both sides declared victory apparently), and he's considered a great ruler even if a greater one kicked his arse.

And aren't paladins supposed not to lie or something?! If he told them he was faking to fool the nobles none of them could have mentioned how thir lord wasn't all that right in the head ever.

"Mister Scruffy needs his Cat Litter changed"

That awful awful Shojo... next thing you'll know he'll have them "wax on, wax off".

David Argall

2007-09-19, 03:06 PM

I have no doubt that Shojo did that. I think he did personally invite Miko into paladinhood.
Open to some qualification. 267 tells us that they make 1st level paladins by batches, which sharply limits the amount of time Shojo could spend with each. While 406 tells us there was some contact, Miko is speaking from her view, not that of the system.
A likely system would be that various people, both in and out of the Order were on the lookout for promising candidates. Once vetted as something like zero-level paladins, they would be taken for training and testing. To give them an idea of how important this role was considered, Shojo came along when the harvesting was done and had a moment or two with the candidate. Since Shojo had a city to run, he didn't spend much time with each one, but of course that tiny block of time looked important to the candidate, just as the handshake of a president is.
So when Shojo first saw Miko, she was just another candidate paladin, and he likely told her, and every other candidate, how he saw great potential in her despite knowing her only by a report from some underling.
Miko recounts Shojo comforting her once, but this is hardly inconsistent with Shojo's character. He was devious, not unkind, and there is no problem in assuming he spent a moment or two bucking up the new kid without having any real knowledge of who she was, or was to be.

Iranon

2007-09-19, 04:04 PM

In 406, Miko states outright that her contacts with Shojo were a lot more personal than a quick handshake to a new recruit... telling her that he saw power in her, that the gods needed her.

Since Miko was of noble birth and had several Monk levels at the age of 13 (!), it makes sense that Shojo would take a personal interest.

Jayabalard

2007-09-19, 04:36 PM

Miko explicitly says he picked HER.She also explicitly says that the 12 gods picked her...

NikkTheTrick

2007-09-19, 09:15 PM

telling her that he saw power in her, that the gods needed her.
I'd assume everyone was told that. Just go to the nearest recruiting station and they will tell you that they see power in you and that the Country needs you:smallwink:

Since Miko was of noble birth and had several Monk levels at the age of 13 (!), it makes sense that Shojo would take a personal interest.
Although with that one I agree.

Alfryd

2007-09-20, 05:10 AM

Dude, when you pick a little girl from a monastary and educate her to believe she's THE CHOSEN ONE OF THE GODS and otherwise "Special" while all the while laughing behind her back, that's brainwashing to me.
That seems slightly unfair. To our knowledge, the most Shojo did to mold Miko's belief system was to point out that "here, we do the Gods' work"- a fairly basic fact of the matter where paladin organisations are concerned. There's no evidence he overtly nurtured her belligerent messiah complex or laughed behind her back. As regarrds her training, there is no firm evidence that Miko had no opt-out if she so desired (even if she wasn't especially happy with the options available, or felt 'duty-bound' to serve.)

I would agree that Shojo's handling of Miko was a tad short-sighted and manipulative. Sending her out on long-range solo missions to avoid irritating other paladins springs to mind (as it certainly served to inflame her existing neuroses.) A high-ranking paladin should, in theory, have at least nominal 'managerial skills' if they're going to function effectively within a command hierarchy, and working alone doesn't help there. Having no source of backup also (it seems likely,) encouraged a more ruthless, survivalist approach to her missions, which doesn't really mix easily with the constraints of a paladin's code. Lastly, one may theorise, the psychological stress of emotional isolation and persistant death-defiance (however self-induced) led her to cling to a 'chosen one' complex simply to sustain herself.
Shojo's own sequence of deceptions and need for interference in distant lands made Miko the ideal soldier for his purposes- obedient, unquestioning, efficient and relentless, but while he recognised her great potential, it seems he did not adequately provision for her flaws.

That said, as far as we can tell on a personal level, Shojo has always graced Miko with as much tact and sympathy as his station permitted. I don't think it's fair to say he was genuinely indifferent to Miko's welfare, he just found himself trapped in an existing dynamic, as much as with Hinjo. It's possible his own feelings for Miko blinded him to the pitfalls of the relationship, and- ironically- proved his undoing.

I highly suspect that Shojo did his best to meet all the new paladins he could and sort of give them a pat on the head and tell them they were going to be great warriors, heros, ect... All the other paladins could deal with it. Since Miko was insane...
Hang on a second. Again, there is no evidence Shojo specifically planted the notion of a unique and lofty destiny in store for Ms. Miyazaki. Secondly, while an "unshakable belief the Gods have great things in store for you" probably qualifies as a mental dysfunction of some kind, there is ZERO evidence that Miko was mentally unwell in the first place. Or, for that matter, such delusions of grandeur would date back to her training or formative years.

Since Miko was of noble birth and had several Monk levels at the age of 13 (!), it makes sense that Shojo would take a personal interest.
Also because she was crying in her room. That doesn't really fall under the heading of a few perfunctory words of congratulation.
I think the balance of evidence indicates that Shojo probably took a personal interest in Miko from an early age. (It also indicates that Miko was highly driven and disciplined from the outset.)