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Creyzi4j
2018-10-10, 02:38 AM
Here’s an additional effect for the ranger beastmaster I thought of to give it better stats.

= The ranger may choose to abandon his/her beast companion, if the ranger does this the beast companion loses all of its bonus and runs off to the wilderness. The ranger can only abandon one companion per long rest

Optional rule = When choosing a beast companion the ranger must roll 2 d20s (a nature check and an animal handling check), and add the results.
If the result is a 20 or below = the ranger gets a 1/4 or lower cr beast companion
If the result is 21-25 = the ranger gets a 1/2 or lower cr beast companion/depending on random roll
If the results is 26-30 = the ranger gets a 1 or lower cr beast companion/depending on random roll


If the ranger reaches level 12, the ranger may acquire a cr 2 beast companion if the ranger rolls a 31 or above sum.

Optional rule to the optional rule: Here are the random companions above 1/4. If the DM wants to be randomy
For 1/2 beasts, roll a d8 and get a companion depending on roll.
1 - get a 1/4 beast companion
2 - black bear
3 - crocodile
4 - giant goat
5 - giant seahorse (reroll)
6 - giant wasp
7 - warhorse
8 - ape

For cr 1 beasts roll a d12 and get companion based on results
1 - get a 1/2
2 - brown bear
3 - giant eagle
4 - dire wolf
5 - reef shark (reroll)
6 - giant hyena
7 - giant octopus (reroll)
8 - giant spider
9 - tiger
10 - lion
11 - giant toad
12 - giant vulture

For cr 2 companions roll a d8 and get one based on roll
1 - get a cr 1 companion
2 - giant constrictor snake
3 - giant elk
4 - hunter shark (reroll)
5 - saber tooth tiger
6 - plesiosaurus
7 - polar bear
8 - rhinoceros

Desteplo
2018-10-11, 01:08 AM
I feel that’s too random.

Also!! There’s nothing wrong with the phb beastmaster. It’s all hype because lvl3 and 4 you have to use your action to order the companion. (That’s the entire flavor of the subclass. You are training this wild beast)

If you did want to provide additional options (and even large beasts) they did a similar system in different editions

Basically what you can do:
For every CR threshold above 1/4 or size catagory above medium , decrease the proficiency bonus granted to your companion by 1

Then after that you can restrict it to a minimum of +2.
-So not until lvl5 can you train a large or 1/2 beast.
-And not until lvl9 when you can train a large 1/2 beast.
-or lvl13 for a CR2 beast (with +2 bonus)

NaughtyTiger
2018-10-11, 09:03 AM
Also!! There’s nothing wrong with the phb beastmaster. It’s all hype because lvl3 and 4 you have to use your action to order the companion. (That’s the entire flavor of the subclass. You are training this wild beast)


I love phb beastmaster, but there are major problems with it. with a strict reading of the rules:

beast dies, and your are out of your archetype abilities until you capture a new pet within 1/4 CR (availability is dm dependent, party has to stop while you do it) + 8 hours of bonding.
only 1 way in the entire game that provides your beast with magical attacks (so beast is useless against 40% of monsters until level 7).
can't use most bonus action attacks and pet in same turn. so you are short 1 attack for many iconic builds (TWF, polearm, crossbow, tavern brawler, ...)
beast support spells are short range, encourage melee over ranged.

if you consider other classes: warlock, pally, sorc, any other ranger (conjure CR2 pet), druid (staff of wood=free awaken, bind a Fey), wiz (bind an elemental), and anyone with find familiar.
all of whom have access to similar capability without burning an entire archetype on it. "entire flavor of the subclass" should be clearly stronger than other options that don't require the same commitment.


that said

I feel that’s too random.
if you are changing the archetype, then work with PC to find a pet that is balanced and fun.

Maxilian
2018-10-11, 09:18 AM
Optional rule = When choosing a beast companion the ranger must roll 2 d20s (a nature check and an animal handling check), and add the results.
If the result is a 20 or below = the ranger gets a 1/4 or lower cr beast companion
If the result is 21-25 = the ranger gets a 1/2 or lower cr beast companion/depending on random roll
If the results is 26-30 = the ranger gets a 1 or lower cr beast companion/depending on random roll


As someone who loves playing classes with companion, i hate this.

Have in mind, that with this, you´re pushing the player to go full power gamer, to abandon its pets in every long rest till it gets a CR 1 beast.

GlenSmash!
2018-10-11, 02:58 PM
I find most players who want to play a Beast Master want to have the same animal companion over the course of the whole game. Not have it dies because it was too weak, but also not swap it out in an ever growing chain of abandoned animals.

Neither the PHB or the options presented here encourage responsible pet ownership.

Sigreid
2018-10-11, 03:02 PM
I think the subclass would be fine if at level 6 or 7 your companion's attacks counted as magical.

Man_Over_Game
2018-10-11, 03:26 PM
Relevant post on RPG Stack Exchange on the modification of Beast Masters to put them in line with other options: If Beast Master Rangers could use bonus actions to attack with their companion, what problems would occur? (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/128701/if-beast-master-rangers-could-use-bonus-actions-to-attack-with-their-companion)

Someone actually responded after trying this exact fix at their table. Their response: "This is not overpowered and works fine" (more details within the link).

Creyzi4j
2018-10-11, 08:37 PM
Relevant post on RPG Stack Exchange on the modification of Beast Masters to put them in line with other options: If Beast Master Rangers could use bonus actions to attack with their companion, what problems would occur? (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/128701/if-beast-master-rangers-could-use-bonus-actions-to-attack-with-their-companion)

Someone actually responded after trying this exact fix at their table. Their response: "This is not overpowered and works fine" (more details within the link).

But there’s a feat that lets the ranger do this.

Namely the Animal Handler feat, in which the ranger cna use a bonus action to make the companion do an action.

You master the techniques needed to train and handle animals. You gain the following benefits:

Increase your Wisdom score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You gain proficiency in the Animal Handling skill. If you are already proficient in the skill, you add double your proficiency bonus to checks you make with it.
You can use a bonus action on your turn to command one friendly beast within 60 feet of you that can hear you and that isn't currently following the command of someone else. You decide now what action the beast will take and where it will move during its next turn, or you issue a general command that lasts for 1 minute, such as to guard a particular area.

Edenbeast
2018-10-12, 07:27 AM
I love phb beastmaster, but there are major problems with it. with a strict reading of the rules:

beast dies, and your are out of your archetype abilities until you capture a new pet within 1/4 CR (availability is dm dependent, party has to stop while you do it) + 8 hours of bonding.
only 1 way in the entire game that provides your beast with magical attacks (so beast is useless against 40% of monsters until level 7).
can't use most bonus action attacks and pet in same turn. so you are short 1 attack for many iconic builds (TWF, polearm, crossbow, tavern brawler, ...)
beast support spells are short range, encourage melee over ranged.

if you consider other classes: warlock, pally, sorc, any other ranger (conjure CR2 pet), druid (staff of wood=free awaken, bind a Fey), wiz (bind an elemental), and anyone with find familiar.
all of whom have access to similar capability without burning an entire archetype on it. "entire flavor of the subclass" should be clearly stronger than other options that don't require the same commitment.

Have you also tried to play one? Or is it based on reading the rules? It seems a lot of theory crafters look down on the beast master, while I don't think it's that bad in practice.
You're a rather mean DM to go out of your way to kill that doggy first before paying attention to that dangerous looking dual wielding ranger... Smarter enemies will probably first try to destroy that component pouch of the wizard, or maybe the cleric's holy symbol.

You mention Find Familiar, yes it's useful for spell casters, it acts on it's own turn, but what does it do effectively in combat? It cannot attack, but it can deliver touch attacks that the caster casts on his own turn. The caster loses one action as well. When the ranger gets Extra Attack at level 5, he can split his attack action between him and his companion. From 11 onwards, the companion makes two attacks. Yes, you trade one attack of your own in for two attacks by your companion. That's in total one attack more than the Hunter archetype.

Conjure Animals, or anything else, seems better as they also get their own turn, but, it requires concentration. Hurt wizard, break concentration, and poof gone are the creatures. There's a trade off. A good DM is not a mean DM, but also not stupid.

Some animals have pack tactics, or pounce, which can help. A fast animal can run and take down enemy archer or spellcaster. It can use the help action to give your party tank advantage on his next attack or allow the rogue to sneak attack. Mind you, from level 7 every companion action but attack is is a bonus action, so let it help so you can do all your attacks (with advantage on your first).

I don't think beast master needs any adjustments, but if any, the one thing I would suggest is to allow flanking in this particular case, even if you don't use flanking rules in general. Make sure the ranger understands flanking and let him/her figure out the tactical game of positioning and form a flanking duo with his animal companion.

Besides there's this cute animal that the entire party falls in love with, and gets angry about when it's being hurt (in game).

Maelynn
2018-10-12, 08:04 AM
A fellow party member is using the Revised Ranger that WotC published in UA - specifically Beast Conclave. It really makes her and her companion a fighting duo, without making them feel really OP. (although we do love to hate how such a small Gnome gets so many killsteals, and now her effing bird has even started doing the same...)

http://dnd5e.wikia.com/wiki/Ranger_(Revised)

https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_RevisedRanger.pdf

NaughtyTiger
2018-10-12, 08:17 AM
Have you also tried to play one?
played 3. level 5, level 7, and currently a level 3 BM ranger/level 3 cleric.
+3 AC, +3 ToHit, +3 damage bonus is powerful. mook level HP is not. (hence the cleric levels)


but what does it do effectively in combat?
Help action. every round. something the pet requires a full action for [bonus action for at level 7].
deliver spells as reaction, while it dodges or disengages as its action.


That's in total one attack more than the Hunter archetype and when BM commands his pet to attack he doesn't use the attack action, he can't use any bonus action attack (strict reading, but rarely enforced). Hunter still can.
more importantly, the hunter has volley, horde breaker, ... up to 4 additional attacks.


Hurt wizard, break concentration, and poof gone are the creatures. as I noted, you can bind them using planar binding (at level 9). no poof, high CR.


It seems a lot of theory crafters look down on the beast master
I didn't say I looked down on it, or that it stunk. I said there are major problems with the class. especially if the DM does a strict read.
Have you played BM in tier 2? cuz magic immunity and a fixed DC13 to pet bonuses would highlight those limitations.

NaughtyTiger
2018-10-12, 08:25 AM
You're a rather mean DM to go out of your way to kill that doggy first before paying attention to that dangerous looking dual wielding ranger... Smarter enemies will probably first try to destroy that component pouch of the wizard, or maybe the cleric's holy symbol.

about tactics and rules:
1) you went through a whole list of reasons why the pet is a weapon to be feared, then suggest it isn't scary enough to target. you can't have it both ways.
just like a caster: very powerful, but low HP. means you target them first. (unless you are immune to nonmagic damage)

2) how do you destroy component pouch or focus? most spell effects specifically exclude items being worn or held.

Naanomi
2018-10-12, 08:26 AM
I’ve played one 1-20; and I never felt bad about my combat options when the pet was alive... but boy did it suck when it was dead for several game sessions in a row. Ranger is already a class that can lose a lot of class abilities due to situational stuff (adventuring inside? Fighting opponents other than your racial enemy? Goodbye basic class abilities!); losing more on top of it is just painful. The pets’ survivavility is just not stupendous in the face of Area spells, traps, environmental hazards.... and mine was (usually) a giant crab grappling people which often made it the only target for many monsters as well (at least when it was doing its job)

Edenbeast
2018-10-12, 09:00 AM
about tactics and rules:
1) you went through a whole list of reasons why the pet is a weapon to be feared, then suggest it isn't scary enough to target. you can't have it both ways.
just like a caster: very powerful, but low HP. means you target them first. (unless you are immune to nonmagic damage)

2) how do you destroy component pouch or focus? most spell effects specifically exclude items being worn or held.

1. Would depend on the order of combat. But, let's say it's you there, and there's a dog, a guy with a gun, and a guy with an axe coming at you. Who do you go after?

2. DMG 271: disarm. Ok, it's not destroying.

Edenbeast
2018-10-12, 09:29 AM
and when BM commands his pet to attack he doesn't use the attack action, he can't use any bonus action attack (strict reading, but rarely enforced). Hunter still can.
more importantly, the hunter has volley, horde breaker, ... up to 4 additional attacks.

Fair enough, but that's before extra attack is available. I mentioned level 11, when the BM companion makes two attacks, the BM can still take the extra attack. If he wields two weapons he still gets a bonus action to attack with offhand. That's 4 total.

Daghoulish
2018-10-12, 09:35 AM
Fair enough, but that's before extra attack is available. I mentioned level 11, when the BM companion makes two attacks, the BM can still take the extra attack. If he wields two weapons he still gets a bonus action to attack with offhand. That's 4 total.

See, I had this conversation a month ago and turns out you can't with PHB by raw.


Making an Attack and using the Attack Action are different things. Several actions let you make an attack but are not the Attack Action. Like, you make an Attack as part of Green Flame Blade but not taking the Attack Action so Extra Attack and TWF doesn't apply.

Also, your rules quote on the command is not the actual text (as I have it):

You can use your action to verbally command it to take the Attack, Dash, Disengage, Dodge, or Help action. Once you have the Extra Attack feature,you can make one weapon attack yourself when you command the beast to take the Attack action.

Which makes it more clear you're not actually taking the Attack Action. You're doing the verbal command thing but you also get to make an attack.

Man_Over_Game
2018-10-12, 10:48 AM
But there’s a feat that lets the ranger do this.

Namely the Animal Handler feat, in which the ranger cna use a bonus action to make the companion do an action.

You master the techniques needed to train and handle animals. You gain the following benefits:

Increase your Wisdom score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You gain proficiency in the Animal Handling skill. If you are already proficient in the skill, you add double your proficiency bonus to checks you make with it.
You can use a bonus action on your turn to command one friendly beast within 60 feet of you that can hear you and that isn't currently following the command of someone else. You decide now what action the beast will take and where it will move during its next turn, or you issue a general command that lasts for 1 minute, such as to guard a particular area.

I do want to mention that that's not a real feat. That's Unearthed Arcana, and, from what I understand, all of the skill UA feats were dumped to be refined to Prodigy in Xanathar's, so they're likely not going to make that a real thing. The other issue is, it's a feat. Other classes don't need to spend a feat to be relevant.

To address other concerns as to whether the Beastmaster needs it or not, here's some info for some references:

Let's say you're a level 11 character;
If you spend an action as any Rogue, you get an attack + 6d6 Sneak Attack.
If you spend an action as any Barbarian, you get +3 to your damage and two attacks.
If you spend an action as any Paladin, you get 2 attacks with + 1d8 each.
If you spend an action as any Fighter, you get 3 attacks.
If you spend an action as BM Ranger, you get 3 attacks.


Do you see the issue? The Beastmaster ranger can only break even with what you get with the base of every other class. Once you start throwing in the bonuses from subclasses, the Beastmaster falls behind VERY quickly. A feat should not be required to keep up.

This is not including the inherent weakness of losing your companion. Losing your companion is a fair threat, just as fair as readying an action to hit those damn Advantage Owl familiars and killing them in one it. One fix I'd recommend is maybe having a permanent Warding Bond on your companion, treated as if cast by you, that doesn't require concentration. That way, damage is split between you and it makes your pet tankier. Although I'm not sure how well that'd work or how balanced It'd be.

NaughtyTiger
2018-10-12, 11:50 AM
thank you.



If you spend an action as any Paladin, you get 2 attacks with + 1d8 each.
If you spend an action as BM Ranger, you get 3 attacks.


Paladin can also get +x attack with uncontrolled mount (ug, i hate that)
Hunter ranger with breaker can get 4 attacks at level 5. (6 if you get OoA)

NaughtyTiger
2018-10-12, 11:55 AM
1. Would depend on the order of combat. But, let's say it's you there, and there's a dog, a guy with a gun, and a guy with an axe coming at you. Who do you go after?

2. DMG 271: disarm. Ok, it's not destroying.

1) who is the easiest to kill?
2) without coordination, that doesn't stop a caster for 1 round. he can pick it back up at the start of his turn. vs kill the dog/caster.

Chaosmancer
2018-10-12, 09:04 PM
To the OP: Wouldn't use this at my table. Players want the same companion who they bonded to inn their backstory (I tend to start at level 3) not "well, I rolled poorly today. This wolf is useless, I'll either get him killed or loose him at the end of the day and try again"

Seriously, I've seen so many defenses of BM's or "fixes" which look like dog fighting rings. Players who choose to have an animal as part of their character concept generally want a "member of the family" type pet, not cannon fodder.


As for BM's needing some work. Yeah, they need it bad. Until 5th one or the other does nothing in a fight. Until 7th (bonus action training) they can only really attack if the ranger wants to be effective. And CR 1/4 creatures aren't effective melee combatants at those levels. Anything outside of combat can be done better by a familiar, and the most useful strategy at level 7 of bonus action help action is done by familiars as a non-action on the point of the ritual caster.

When your entire subclass can be outshone by a 1st level spell, you've got issues.

Edenbeast
2018-10-15, 11:07 AM
See, I had this conversation a month ago and turns out you can't with PHB by raw.

That sounds quite reasonable. I can't say anything against that.


Help action. every round. something the pet requires a full action for [bonus action for at level 7].
deliver spells as reaction, while it dodges or disengages as its action.


When your entire subclass can be outshone by a 1st level spell, you've got issues.

What also needs to be mentioned is that familiars have only 1 hp. One shot will take them out, not to mention any fireball or other AoE spell dealing damage.


as I noted, you can bind them using planar binding (at level 9). no poof, high CR.

I think one issue in general is oversimplification on DM's part that leads to balance issues. The above is maybe a good example.

The component pouch is described as to hold all material components required except for those with a specific cost, keeping track of these components is rather impossible and I would not advice anyone to do so otherwise. We'll just assume the spell caster has the required components at hand. However, when it comes to listed components with value, the spell caster is supposed to have these specific components.

With planar binding you can extend the duration of a summoned to 24 hours. At level 9 that would cost you your only 5th level slot. You would have to cast conjure minor elemental followed by planar binding. The latter requiring a jewel of at least 1000 gp. The next day you would have to cast planar binding again to keep the elemental for another day, again costing you your 5th level spell slot, and another jewel worth 1000 gp. You would need a lot of these jewels in order to have, similar to a Beastmaster, a companion that follows you around day in day out. Good luck going from jeweller to jeweller and searching the dragon's hoard.

The second issue, also often conveniently ignored by some DM's is the verbal command. The summoned creatures obey any verbal command. "Any" is not a problem here, they will just do whatever you tell them to do, what is, is that the command has to be in a language they understand. I think this why conjure animals does not actually conjure animals (they have no language), but fey spirits taking the form of animals. Fey only speak Sylvan. The sage background and the Linguist feat are quite useful for a full-time summoner.

Also, with conjure elemental, when the spell ends after 1 hour, the elemental will turn hostile. Planar binding has a casting time of one hour. It's almost certain that you have bounded a hostile elemental, which is fine, it will still try to do whatever you want, but it has intelligence 6, so that can be interesting. You can also use an inverted magic circle to contain it, so it won't attack you before you finish planar binding. I think on paper a single wizard could do it, but it's better to have two spell casters who work together.

I agree the beast master is on paper not the best subclass, but I find that the rules offer enough to make the game fairer. I think 5e does a lot in balancing the game, and simplifying the rules so people can focus more on role-play. The beast master is a fun class to play and the way I see the action that you spend is in order to encourage the animal to attack, instead of telepathically controlling (familiars) or just ordering around a summoned/bound creature. They all have strengths and weaknesses, but if the DM is too lazy to enforce all the weaknesses, then that is where imbalance creeps in.


1) who is the easiest to kill?
2) without coordination, that doesn't stop a caster for 1 round. he can pick it back up at the start of his turn. vs kill the dog/caster.

1) Fair enough. I admit, a not so intelligent creature might go for what he perceives as the easiest target, so it is a valid strategy. In my opinion, a DM should role-play the creatures he controls, smarter enemies take different actions, maybe you disagree, but I think it's more fun for the players when they don't encounter a robot that scans for the lowest number. I also try not to metagame, even though I have seen the character sheets.

2)That is true, but it doesn't need coordination, the attacker also has a free interaction to pick up that pouch.

NaughtyTiger
2018-10-15, 11:11 AM
What also needs to be mentioned is that familiars have only 1 hp. One shot will take them out, not to mention any fireball or other AoE spell dealing damage.

a wiser man than me said:


You're a rather mean DM to go out of your way to kill that doggy first before paying attention to that dangerous looking dual wielding ranger..

NaughtyTiger
2018-10-15, 11:29 AM
With planar binding you can extend the duration of a summoned to 24 hours...
agreed. 1000gp is expensive for a daily spell. but, it also isn't unreasonable that you can have way more than that over the course of 9 levels (aka, Adventurers League went through a major overhaul because gold was too cheap). By level 11 a fire elemental can be bound for 10 days.


The second issue, also often conveniently ignored by some DM's is the verbal command. The summoned creatures obey any verbal command. "Any" is not a problem here, they will just do whatever you tell them to do, what is, is that the command has to be in a language they understand. I think this why conjure animals does not actually conjure animals (they have no language), but fey spirits taking the form of animals. Fey only speak Sylvan. The sage background and the Linguist feat are quite useful for a full-time summoner.
Language issue is not ignored. it is often interpreted that it doesn't have to be in primordial (or sylvan). Spells that require the language to be understood explicitly state that (for example command). It is perfectly reasonable that a DM encourage the language restriction. It is also reasonable that someone focused on conjuring picks up that language as oen of their optional languages.


the attacker also has a free interaction to pick up that pouch.
that does require reaching into an enemy's controlled space. that is very different than drawing a sword from your scabbard. many DMs would be rightly wary of that.



The beast master is a fun class to play.

I love phb beastmaster literally my first words on this topic.

Edenbeast
2018-10-16, 05:39 AM
a wiser man than me said:

Ah yes, you caught me there. Not so consistent of me :smallbiggrin: But following your reasoning:

1) who is the easiest to kill?
You would end up killing a lot of familiars too :)


agreed. 1000gp is expensive for a daily spell. but, it also isn't unreasonable that you can have way more than that over the course of 9 levels (aka, Adventurers League went through a major overhaul because gold was too cheap). By level 11 a fire elemental can be bound for 10 days.
My point was not the amount wealth the PC's gather. What I meant is the specific material component with a cost in gp, such as the gem worth 1000 gp or more for planar binding. I'll refer to DMG page 136 to 139 with the tables for generating random treasure: 1000+ gp gems first appear in challenge 11-16 treasures. At level 9 the players have not come across such challenges. Maybe once. Considering that these gems are rare, players won't find these in just about any hamlet they happen to pass through.


that does require reaching into an enemy's controlled space. that is very different than drawing a sword from your scabbard. many DMs would be rightly wary of that.



literally my first words on this topic.

Good point! Cheers :smallsmile:

NaughtyTiger
2018-10-16, 10:09 AM
You would end up killing a lot of familiars too :)
every chance i get. i hate them critters. i make the players regret spending 15gp for advantage. their familiar hates it, too.

so to your earlier point, yeah, i am a pretty mean DM :)
ciao.

Chaosmancer
2018-10-16, 01:14 PM
What also needs to be mentioned is that familiars have only 1 hp. One shot will take them out, not to mention any fireball or other AoE spell dealing damage.

True.

But Animal companions aren't much better in that regard. With an average of 28 damage on a failed save a fireball will kill any companion below level 7. And even when you are level 10 it will knock more than half the hp off a companion.

And with easier restoration, far more utility, and the fact it isn't an entire subclass... I still think familiar's edge them out even with 1 hp.

Desteplo
2018-10-17, 03:10 AM
True.

But Animal companions aren't much better in that regard. With an average of 28 damage on a failed save a fireball will kill any companion below level 7. And even when you are level 10 it will knock more than half the hp off a companion.

And with easier restoration, far more utility, and the fact it isn't an entire subclass... I still think familiar's edge them out even with 1 hp.

Companions don’t die at 0. One goodberry or cure wounds and they bounce back up.
-familiars are gone at 0

Chaosmancer
2018-10-18, 10:46 AM
Companions don’t die at 0. One goodberry or cure wounds and they bounce back up.
-familiars are gone at 0

A fair point, but costing spells hurts party resources. 1 hp from bounce healing is going to be gone very quickly and mean dropping again most likely. Then, there is the fact that they don't have enough HD to short rest heal in an effective manner.

So, a companion that drops and is brought back could cost the party 2 or 3 spells to get back to full effectiveness.

A familiar costs 10 gold and an hour for the ritual.

And again, one of these is the entire focus of a subclass who losses many "special abilities" if they are gone.

NaughtyTiger
2018-10-18, 02:38 PM
Companions don’t die at 0. One goodberry or cure wounds and they bounce back up.

this is an optional rule...

Monsters and Death
Most GMs have a monster die the instant it drops to 0 Hit Points, rather than having it fall Unconscious and make Death Saving Throws.

Mighty villains and Special Nonplayer Characters are Common exceptions; the GM might have them fall Unconscious and follow the same rules as player characters.



if a DM allows death saving throws, then the DM can still attack it while it's down, crit. 2 failed death saves.
if you are going to do something dumb like send a weak character to the frontline more than once, they deserve death.

Naanomi
2018-10-18, 05:36 PM
And death saves rarely help when your beast dies to environmental hazards... hard to climb out of the spike pit it blundered into with no hands to hold the rope, he probably isn’t priority #1 to pull him out of the lava pit or away from the insect swarm... and just try convincing the party to spend the 1000g to rez it!

Kadesh
2018-10-19, 01:19 AM
But there’s a feat that lets the ranger do this.

Namely the Animal Handler feat, in which the ranger cna use a bonus action to make the companion do an action.

You master the techniques needed to train and handle animals. You gain the following benefits:

Increase your Wisdom score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You gain proficiency in the Animal Handling skill. If you are already proficient in the skill, you add double your proficiency bonus to checks you make with it.
You can use a bonus action on your turn to command one friendly beast within 60 feet of you that can hear you and that isn't currently following the command of someone else. You decide now what action the beast will take and where it will move during its next turn, or you issue a general command that lasts for 1 minute, such as to guard a particular area.

For the record, this feat doesn't exist any more other than as Legacy playtesting UA over a year old, and subsumed within the Prodigy feat available to Humans and Half-humans. For all intents and purposes, it is dead content in the eyes of wotc.

Edenbeast
2018-10-19, 03:23 AM
And death saves rarely help when your beast dies to environmental hazards... hard to climb out of the spike pit it blundered into with no hands to hold the rope, he probably isn’t priority #1 to pull him out of the lava pit or away from the insect swarm... and just try convincing the party to spend the 1000g to rez it!

A spiked pit is a trap, not an environmental hazard, technically. That aside, I guess it would depend on the situation and the alignment of the party. It would be bad roleplaying on the party's part: "whoops, oh crap, your animal fell into a trap and now we can't get it out, sorry ranger dude, gotta move on..." I'd give bonus xp for mercy killing if no other solution exists and the animal is still alive but dying. I'd also give bonus xp for trying to resurrect it. Mind you, in our current time there are people who clone their beloved pet when it dies and they have the cash!

On to more practical and topic related points:

Here’s an additional effect for the ranger beastmaster I thought of to give it better stats.

= The ranger may choose to abandon his/her beast companion, if the ranger does this the beast companion loses all of its bonus and runs off to the wilderness. The ranger can only abandon one companion per long rest

I already allow adding the ranger's proficiency bonus to all of the beast's saving throws (giving it better chances to survive a fireball, for example). I always found it strange that not a single beast is proficient with a saving throw and still the text mentions saving throws. It's more than fair as the rules do let you add your proficiency bonus to the beast's AC.

When it comes to hit points, 4 times ranger level, 4 is about the average of 1d8, which happens to be hit dice for quite some beasts. We usually just go with the 4 anyway, but you could opt for rolling the beast's hit dice times your level, and add it's constitution bonus (if any). Or even say take the result from the roll, or the 4 if it's better.

Now comes the more speculative, what I haven't used yet, but I recently came up with and thinking of implementing. The rules say you spend 8 hours magically bonding with the animal. One issue is that, especially at later levels, the animal's natural weapons are not considered magical. But what if, since the bond is magical, it's natural weapons are actually magical? I'm not asking whether this is RAI, but whether you would find this reasonable.

Another thing that crossed my mind, Speak with Animals is on the ranger's spell list. This spell allows you to verbally communicate with beasts for 10 minutes. This would allow the ranger to not use an action or bonus action, just as with any of the Conjure something spells: any verbal commands don't require an action. It's a creative use of Speak with Animals spell, but the description basically says at the DM's discretion (concerning small favours, but I'd be willing to go beyond this), although I wonder if this makes this spell too powerful... On the other hand, with the investment of 1 spell slot per encounter, it makes the beast master feel more powerful, or maybe too powerful? Then again, Find Familiar is a level 1 spell, and some people here claim it's better than the entire beast master archetype...

NaughtyTiger
2018-10-19, 08:02 AM
I already allow adding the ranger's proficiency bonus to all of the beast's saving throws (giving it better chances to survive a fireball, for example). I always found it strange that not a single beast is proficient with a saving throw and still the text mentions saving throws. It's more than fair as the rules do let you add your proficiency bonus to the beast's AC.

When it comes to hit points, 4 times ranger level, 4 is about the average of 1d8, which happens to be hit dice for quite some beasts. We usually just go with the 4 anyway, but you could opt for rolling the beast's hit dice times your level, and add it's constitution bonus (if any). Or even say take the result from the roll, or the 4 if it's better.

Now comes the more speculative, what I haven't used yet, but I recently came up with and thinking of implementing. The rules say you spend 8 hours magically bonding with the animal. One issue is that, especially at later levels, the animal's natural weapons are not considered magical. But what if, since the bond is magical, it's natural weapons are actually magical? I'm not asking whether this is RAI, but whether you would find this reasonable.

Another thing that crossed my mind, Speak with Animals is on the ranger's spell list. This spell allows you to verbally communicate with beasts for 10 minutes. This would allow the ranger to not use an action or bonus action, just as with any of the Conjure something spells: any verbal commands don't require an action. It's a creative use of Speak with Animals spell, but the description basically says at the DM's discretion (concerning small favours, but I'd be willing to go beyond this), although I wonder if this makes this spell too powerful... On the other hand, with the investment of 1 spell slot per encounter, it makes the beast master feel more powerful, or maybe too powerful? Then again, Find Familiar is a level 1 spell, and some people here claim it's better than the entire beast master archetype...

The UA revised beastmaster does add proficiency to all saving throws, giving the beast a high level monk ability.
It is more reasonable to me that it is proficient in the SAME saving throws as the Ranger

Making the beast attacks magical at level 7 is a reasonable change.

The UA revised beastmaster removes Extra Attack and sort of gives it to the beast.
This restores offhand attack and keeps the number of attacks on par with other martials (if the beast is alive)
One more note about offhand attack on PHB ranger. RAW says it goes away. I have never had a DM penalize me for using bonus action attack (shield master and polearm master) with a beast attack

No one said FF was better than the entire beast archetype. Just equal to without the cost. Wait, I guess that is better. :)
That said, my tabaxi and goat are still going strong.

Monster Manuel
2018-10-19, 09:41 AM
Then, there is the fact that they don't have enough HD to short rest heal in an effective manner.


This is a question I've had for a while about the Animal companion, actually. How many HD do they HAVE? And what Die? Is it based on the HD of the original animal? The Companion gets extra HP based on the ranger level, but it never says anything about hit dice. Does that mean that at Level 15, your Wolf companion (with 60 HP) only gets the original 2d8 hit dice healing on a short rest that a regular wolf has?

Chaosmancer
2018-10-19, 01:13 PM
This is a question I've had for a while about the Animal companion, actually. How many HD do they HAVE? And what Die? Is it based on the HD of the original animal? The Companion gets extra HP based on the ranger level, but it never says anything about hit dice. Does that mean that at Level 15, your Wolf companion (with 60 HP) only gets the original 2d8 hit dice healing on a short rest that a regular wolf has?

Got it in one. Their hp increases but their HD never do. You simply use the MM stats.

Also (because I saw this earlier) 4 is not the average of 1d8 for pc class characters. That's 5, 4 corresponds to the 1d6

CircuitEngie
2018-10-19, 01:52 PM
Got it in one. Their hp increases but their HD never do. You simply use the MM stats.

Also (because I saw this earlier) 4 is not the average of 1d8 for pc class characters. That's 5, 4 corresponds to the 1d6

Yup, the animal companion is basically a 10 CON Wizard looking to engage in melee combat.

It's actually worse though, because the 10 CON Wizard at least gets 6 HP at level 1.

Edenbeast
2018-10-20, 05:33 AM
Also (because I saw this earlier) 4 is not the average of 1d8 for pc class characters. That's 5, 4 corresponds to the 1d6

The averages for 1d6 and 1d8 are 3.5 and 4.5, respectively. There are several types of rounding you can use. Most commonly to 4 and 5, for example, but you could use banker's rounding where you round to the closest even number, which in this case is 4 for both. Most (for the ranger interesting) beasts have 1d6 or 1d8.

Chaosmancer
2018-10-20, 09:43 AM
The averages for 1d6 and 1d8 are 3.5 and 4.5, respectively. There are several types of rounding you can use. Most commonly to 4 and 5, for example, but you could use banker's rounding where you round to the closest even number, which in this case is 4 for both. Most (for the ranger interesting) beasts have 1d6 or 1d8.

Which is why I said "PC class" characters. I wasn't certain but assumed monsters rounded down while players rounded up.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume a beast companion should use player numbers, it helps with perspective to realize you are running a melee creature with the same health pool as a Wizard with 10 constitution