Path of War/Lords of the Wild build help

[Calast]

I've been following the threads created by Elricaltovilla for Path of War and am excited to play a martial character. It seems that a martial character can keep up with a magic using character pretty well. I was wondering if a base class from the PoW or PoW expanded or other supplemental material would make a good candidate for a werewolf template listed in Lords of the Wild.

Would a Steelfist Commando Warlord archetype work with a werewolf?

Any creative build ideas?

[Andor13]

Would a Steelfist Commando Warlord archetype work with a werewolf?

I don't see why not. Your unarmed damage would outstrip your claw damage pretty quickly, but really, that's just a weird system artifact. Broken Blade will keep your damage up to snuff. You might want to swap around a discipline or two with traits. I might swap Steel Serpent back to Primal Fury, and/or pick up Chimera Soul if you want to play up the shapeshifting angle.

Sounds like a fun character to play.

The only other bare handed archetypes I can think of are the Aurora Soul mystic which has a heavy elemental magic focus, and the Sanguinist Medic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?483472-Dreamscarred-Press-Presents-The-MEDIC!) who basically punches the hit points out of people and then gives them to his friends. It might work as kind of a werewolf-shaman-healer?

[Calast]

Would the unarmed damage stack with the claws? I keep finding conflicting explanations.

[Calast]

Also, did Chimera soul officially become published or is it just in the play test

[Andor13]

Would the unarmed damage stack with the claws? I keep finding conflicting explanations.

As far as I know, they are separate things. It would be perfectly fair for you to ask your GM to allow the Steelfist bonuses to stack onto them in my opinion, but can always say no. Basically the key difference is that unarmed is just like any weapon attack, but without a weapon, so you get standard iterative attacks, and TWF rules if you want to punch someone with your off hand (or foot), whereas Natural attacks are their own thing so you can get claw/claw (or Claw/claw/bite/gore/rake/tentacle/tentacle/tentacle/tentacle/wingbuffet/tail in extreme cases) at full BAB for mains and -5 for secondaries but no iteratives. But I am not a PF rules guru so if someone else wants to chip in I'll yield.


Also, did Chimera soul officially become published or is it just in the play test

I ... have no idea. I don't have a GM who let's me play PoW so it hasn't mattered to me. :smalleek:

[Rainshine]

Would the unarmed damage stack with the claws? I keep finding conflicting explanations.

Depends what you mean by stack. Natural attacks are finnicky with how you use them; they are either graded as primary (Full BAB) or secondary (BAB-5)
If you do nothing but natural attacks, a full attack gets you all your natural attacks at whatever they are; say, bite/claw/claw all at full BAB. However, if you throw another attack in there -- say, a dagger strike -- all natural attacks take the -5 penalty. So if you attack with your unarmed attacks, you can still attack on a full attack with your claws, but they're at -5.

[Calast]

I'm looking for a synergistic class from the path of war to pair with the werewolf template and the greater werewolf PrC... To attack he is going to be using claws and bite attack. For maneuvers, I was thinking broken blade and fools errands and chimera soul (not sure if it came out of play test yet)

[upho]

Would the unarmed damage stack with the claws? I keep finding conflicting explanations.I think it's safest to ignore anything you find online written before August -15, as that is when the last errata to the highly relevant Feral Combat Training (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat/) feat was made. And keep in mind that PF's general rules for natural attacks are slightly different from those of D&D 3.5.


Also, did Chimera soul officially become published or is it just in the play testIt hasn't been published. But I wouldn't be surprised if it will be. Regardless, I believe you and your GM can safely use CS, as it's a rather modest discipline overall, and doesn't really change how a natural attack build risks becoming broken. So IMO, as long as you take the same care you normally would to not go overboard with a damage focus, there's no reason not to include CS (more below).


I'm looking for a synergistic class from the path of war to pair with the werewolf template and the greater werewolf PrC... To attack he is going to be using claws and bite attack. For maneuvers, I was thinking broken blade and fools errands and chimera soul (not sure if it came out of play test yet)You can make a very effective damage focused build using natural attacks using basically any PoW class or archetype/template, and basically any race if using the LotW werewolf template.

That said, the classes/archetypes/templates most well suited to make the most of the damage potentials should allow access to preferably at least Broken Blade, Primal Fury and CS, work well as Str based, and have features to increase their Str (alchemist mutagen, barbarian/bloodrager rage, Brutal Slayer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/stalker/stalker-archetypes/brutal-slayer/) stalker, Formless Master PrC etc). And an ideal race should normally of course come with a Str boost, and maybe also natural attacks which the werewolf template doesn't already grant, such as the Ragebred (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/standard-races-1-10-rp/skinwalkers-10-rp/#TOC-Wereboar-Kin-Ragebred) skinwalker (though beware this may easily make you OP during early levels).

Natural attack builds are generally also a bit weird and can be tricky to balance with weapon wielders, and they can potentially have a huge number of attacks at full bab and with at least the "two-handed" x 1.5 Str boost and x3 Power Attack boost to damage. The main problem is typically that they're very front-loaded, meaning a build can easily have enough primary attacks from race and class choices to make it very OP during the earlier levels, while the same build can have difficulties keeping up with weapon wielders in higher levels since there are a lot fewer ways in which to add natural attacks effectively later on. CS, certain psionic powers (most notably the metamorphosis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/m/metamorphosis/) line) and specific magic items may however also more than mitigate the later level issues, meaning natural attack builds are the far most potent damage dealers in the game (especially if also mounted), to the point of being able to do things like reliably bringing the tarrasque into negatives with a single charge as early as mid teen levels.

While this is true regardless of whether the game includes DSP material or is limited to Paizo options, with DSP you do have a notably greater number of related options, so I recommend you take a bit of extra care not to focus too much on damage. Unless you happen to play in a more high-op game, you don't want to end up with an insane monster-mower murder-machine; aside from potential balance issues in comparison to other PCs in your party, instant death (tons of hp damage/turn) probably does the least to help make combat fun and exciting. But on the other hand, the relatively effective damage boost options for natural attacks also means you'll typically have greater room for pure flavor options and for improving your versatility both in and out of combat, while remaining a very effective damage dealer not OP for your game.

Speaking of, the Greater Werewolf PrC is not exactly the most optimized option, but you can most likely do more than well in combat anyways. And it sure has a lot of flavor for a werewolf.

I'd be happy to help you out with a more detailed build outline if you can give me some more info on the power level and other limitations (if any) of your game, the other PCs, and especially your own wishes. For example: Would you like to dabble in combat stuff other than dealing hp damage? What would you like to be good at outside of combat? How easily can you expect it to be for your party to find/craft/buy specific magic items? What level do you start at, and what level do you expect to have attained when the campaign ends? What do the other PCs focus on (in and out of combat)?

[Calast]

I would love some help in that... We play with anything written for 3.5 and Pathfinder. In regards to the power level, I'm not worried about because last campaign words of power was allowed with a bard and that I feel was the most overpowered buff that I have seen so far.

My party players generally focus on damage output in battles and tend to be squishy. We can usually find (if we can afford it) any magic item that's in print (supplemental and books).

I'm married to the idea of werewolf humanoid character with martial disciplines but open to any approach. We are starting the campaign low at level 3 and we are going all the way up to max.

[Calast]

I would considered being a healer or tank to be honest just as long as I can hold my own by myself... My dm sometimes likes to separated PCs. I prefer more of a CC character than high damage however...I tend to get bored if my character just does high damage.

[Andor13]

Well, just my 2¢ on the werewolf vs the classes.

Stalker - Good disciplines, but it has a crit fishing focus that natural weapons are bad at, they also have a pretty poor recovery method. If you want to be sneaky it's a good match, but I'd pass personally.

Warder - It has a defensive focus that may not fit your flavor of werewolf, but if you want to be tanky, this is a good class. If you want to be a defender style werewolf looking out for his pack-mates, this is probably where I would go.

Warlord - This would be my default choice, particularly the Steelfist Commando archetype. Decent disciplines and a fun recovery system.

Mystic - This is a good class but the flavor seems really off to me unless you were really going for a werewolf shaman kind of vibe. It does have an unarmed focused archetype in the aurora soul. If you want to play a party buffing werewolf mystic covered in woad spirals, this is where to go.

Harbinger - One of the best recovery methods in the game, and one of the best skirmishers. This would be more of an exploration of the curse aspects of being a werewolf, as your howl drives fear and despair into your enemies. If you have mages in your party they will love you, as a harbinger can absolutely cripple enemy saves. Note that the classes dark claim class feature has a lot of feats that can feed it, but can therefore also suck up all your feats.

Zealot - This one would be weird. It's a very strong class, and an excellent party defender however. I would probably ask my GM to refluff the psionic collective as mystic werewolf pack bonds, if he's okay with that then it's a very solid defensive class.

Medic - Maybe going Sanguinist? It feels more vampire that werewolf, but whatever works for you.

Rajah - No. Great class but very much not a werewolf.

You can also look at the various initiator archetypes, but why would you? No wait, I take that back. The Aegis class has decent (if quirky) access to martial maneuvers, and has a lot of other good class features. If you want to be a werewolf in platemail that shifts right along with him, this is an easy way to do it. Frankly the idea of a werewolf in platemail is kind of terrifying, so I like it. Or you can try the aberrant archetype and have an absolutely obscene number of natural attacks.

[Calast]

Well, just my 2¢ on the werewolf vs the classes.

Stalker - Good disciplines, but it has a crit fishing focus that natural weapons are bad at, they also have a pretty poor recovery method. If you want to be sneaky it's a good match, but I'd pass personally.

Warder - It has a defensive focus that may not fit your flavor of werewolf, but if you want to be tanky, this is a good class. If you want to be a defender style werewolf looking out for his pack-mates, this is probably where I would go.

Warlord - This would be my default choice, particularly the Steelfist Commando archetype. Decent disciplines and a fun recovery system.

Mystic - This is a good class but the flavor seems really off to me unless you were really going for a werewolf shaman kind of vibe. It does have an unarmed focused archetype in the aurora soul. If you want to play a party buffing werewolf mystic covered in woad spirals, this is where to go.

Harbinger - One of the best recovery methods in the game, and one of the best skirmishers. This would be more of an exploration of the curse aspects of being a werewolf, as your howl drives fear and despair into your enemies. If you have mages in your party they will love you, as a harbinger can absolutely cripple enemy saves. Note that the classes dark claim class feature has a lot of feats that can feed it, but can therefore also suck up all your feats.

Zealot - This one would be weird. It's a very strong class, and an excellent party defender however. I would probably ask my GM to refluff the psionic collective as mystic werewolf pack bonds, if he's okay with that then it's a very solid defensive class.

Medic - Maybe going Sanguinist? It feels more vampire that werewolf, but whatever works for you.

Rajah - No. Great class but very much not a werewolf.

You can also look at the various initiator archetypes, but why would you? No wait, I take that back. The Aegis class has decent (if quirky) access to martial maneuvers, and has a lot of other good class features. If you want to be a werewolf in platemail that shifts right along with him, this is an easy way to do it. Frankly the idea of a werewolf in platemail is kind of terrifying, so I like it. Or you can try the aberrant archetype and have an absolutely obscene number of natural attacks.

The Warder, Harbinger, and Steelfist Commando archetype warlord did catch my eye. I love the recovery of maneuvers of the Harbinger. The warder I like the zone of nope. I really do like CC. The Steelfist Commando I initially thought of but then I thought there was too much waste due to the fact that everything it gets improves unarmed specifically and not natural if I read it correctly and I want to do natural attacks more. I keep trying to understand how to play the Aegis and get lost on that one.

I love the Rajah class however I definitely agree that I don't see it working with a werewolf build.

[Andor13]

For the steelfist commando the only ability you'ld really lose is Powerful Pugilist at 8th level. I'd run it by your GM and see if he'd let you apply it to your claws/natural attacks instead.

The Aegis is kind of whatever you want/need it to be. Mechanically the class is a synthesist summoner on a martial base instead of a spellcasting one. With the added support options from psionics expanded, path of war, and Akasha it's the most flexible non-casting class in the game. Pretty much the only thing they can't do well is to be a party face.

I think of them as psIron Man. You have a suit that acts as a swiss army power set. You can customize for damage, defense, senses, movement, utility, whatever you need. It's a pretty self contained class, in that it doesn't do much for the party besides carry his own weight, but you have access to psionic powers through the power stone line, you have access to all the martial maneuvers (including Golden Lion, Sliver Crane, and Radiant Dawn) for sharing the party love, and you can generate obscene UMD checks for whatever else you need from scrolls, etc.

Of course, to use all that efficiently you have to actually learn the class options and have some familiarity with all the sub-systems they can access. However, you won't have the points to actually use all of it, so you can specialize.

Since you can use the suit to turn into a huge 4 armed werewolf with powerful build and deep crystal claws, it's probably your biggest damage option.

Note that the class does peter out a bit at later levels so you'll need to use the advanced learning feat to get high level maneuvers (7 and up.)

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I think that Primal Fury (considered to be slightly overtuned, so in moderation) and Thrashing Dragon (TWF discipline, but plays well with natural weapons by design) would be your main disciplines. You can actually do that on a normal warlord. If you also use Golden Lion, you could a pretty effective pack leader.

The werewolf template is a great martial template, so you could really use it effectively on pretty much anything; if you want to capitalize on the wisdom bump, Stalker (optimally goes for crit builds, but not neccessary, stealthy and supernatural by default), Mystic (a very good support initiator, good for a shaman theme), Medic (mentioned before), or an Ordained Defender Warder (warder with Warpriest stuff, switches from Int to Wis).

[Calast]

Thank you everyone for their help...although it may not be complete optimization, I think a Sanguinist Greater werewolf character may be fun to play. The more I read about the sanguinist medic, the more I like it and I really do like the fluff of the greater werewolf.

[upho]

In regards to the power level, I'm not worried about because last campaign words of power was allowed with a bard and that I feel was the most overpowered buff that I have seen so far.Really? I've never played with words of power, but AFAICT they're typically not quite as powerful as normal spells, but can be preferable for especially spontaneous full casters. I can however see how some word combos could grant pretty powerful shorter duration combat buffs with a single casting which would require multiple normal spells. Which might allow for some quite hilarious boosts when combined with optimized bardic performance etc.


My party players generally focus on damage output in battles and tend to be squishy. We can usually find (if we can afford it) any magic item that's in print (supplemental and books).

I'm married to the idea of werewolf humanoid character with martial disciplines but open to any approach. We are starting the campaign low at level 3 and we are going all the way up to max.
I would considered being a healer or tank to be honest just as long as I can hold my own by myself... My dm sometimes likes to separated PCs. I prefer more of a CC character than high damage however...I tend to get bored if my character just does high damage.
The Warder, Harbinger, and Steelfist Commando archetype warlord did catch my eye. I love the recovery of maneuvers of the Harbinger. The warder I like the zone of nope. I really do like CC. /snip/ ...and I want to do natural attacks more.From an optimization perspective, natural attacks are great for damage, but unfortunately, especially their lack of reach makes them relatively poor for other possible melee combat roles. And judging by your wishes and that the other PCs in your party are likely to focus more on damage, I think you should at least consider relying more on a manufactured reach weapon and getting only the werewolf's bite, using it more as a utility weapon.

Note that you can of course also get decent or even good control with natural attacks, but it usually costs a bit more and doesn't really jam with their strength. If this sounds more interesting to you than a manufactured reach weapon with better potential for non-damage melee focuses, I think you'll be best off with an unconventional multiclass build, incorporating for example 4 levels of bloodrager (aberrant bloodline) and some of the weirder stuff found in LotW and Bloodforge (such as the Formless Master PrC, shifting feats and Mongrel PrC). Flavor-wise, this will turn you into more of a "freak monster werewolf", especially in combat, but it can be made really effective and give you quite a bit of utility also outside of combat.

And then of course there's the Fiendbound Marauder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/fiendbound-marauder/) warder archetype, which can be an absolute beast in combat via combat maneuvers, especially if complemented with Seize the Opportunity (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/seize-the-opportunity-combat/) and a focus on Eternal Guardian and combat demoralization (Intimidation). Notably, it comes with two unique fantastic "manifested" reach weapons with grab that are already largely treated as both manufactured and natural, which matches the werewolf flavor pretty perfectly if simply described as a pair of gigantic werewolf "claw-hands". The archetype is otherwise less of a "passive" defender than the vanilla warder, but a more aggressive active control type of defender. It can also be combined with the Ordained Defender (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/ordained-defender/) archetype and levels in a divine caster class for more healing.


I keep trying to understand how to play the Aegis and get lost on that one.I think you're far from the only one encountering this problem. The aegis has such a huge number of possible builds and focuses it's easy to be overwhelmed at first, especially since it can incorporate almost any subsystem in the game in some way or another.


Thank you everyone for their help...although it may not be complete optimization, I think a Sanguinist Greater werewolf character may be fun to play. The more I read about the sanguinist medic, the more I like it and I really do like the fluff of the greater werewolf.The Sanguinist is unfortunately primarily damage focused. Yes, it does offer a bit of healing, but it sacrifices quite a bit of the medic's healing capacity for boosting DPR, potentially very high in combination with a werewolf natural attacker.

For a more support/healing and defender focused build, I'd suggest mixing say a few Ordained Defender warder levels with a couple of Cleric or Pathwalker warpriest levels and then enter the Battle Templar PrC (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/battle-templar/), and primarily fighting with a manufactured reach weapon instead of natural attacks. And you can of course add in the above mentioned Fiendbound Marauder warder archetype for more natural attack flavor and less passive but potentially much stronger melee control/defender abilities.

So, what sounds more interesting:

more damage/healing focused natural attack Sanguinist
more control/debuff focused a) manufactured reach weapon wielder, b) Fiendbound Marauder or c) "freak monster werewolf"
more support/healing/defender focused a) manufactured reach weapon wielder or b) Fiendbound Marauder

Please let me know what you think or if you have any further questions.

[Calast]

...Note that you can of course also get decent or even good control with natural attacks, but it usually costs a bit more and doesn't really jam with their strength. If this sounds more interesting to you than a manufactured reach weapon with better potential for non-damage melee focuses, I think you'll be best off with an unconventional multiclass build, incorporating for example 4 levels of bloodrager (aberrant bloodline) and some of the weirder stuff found in LotW and Bloodforge (such as the Formless Master PrC, shifting feats and Mongrel PrC). Flavor-wise, this will turn you into more of a "freak monster werewolf", especially in combat, but it can be made really effective and give you quite a bit of utility also outside of combat.

[And then of course there's the Fiendbound warder archetype, which can be an absolute beast in combat via combat maneuvers, especially if complemented with Seize the Opportunity and a focus on Eternal Guardian and combat demoralization (Intimidation). Notably, it comes with two unique fantastic "manifested" reach weapons with grab that are already largely treated as both manufactured and natural, which matches the werewolf flavor pretty perfectly if simply described as a pair of gigantic werewolf "claw-hands". The archetype is otherwise less of a "passive" defender than the vanilla warder, but a more aggressive active control type of defender. It can also be combined with the Ordained Defender archetype and levels in a divine caster class for more healing.

My party that I usually go with thinks that all martial builds are exponentially weaker than spell casters at any job and I kind of want to prove them wrong.



The Sanguinist is unfortunately primarily damage focused. Yes, it does offer a bit of healing, but it sacrifices quite a bit of the medic's healing capacity for boosting DPR, potentially very high in combination with a werewolf natural attacker.

For a more support/healing and defender focused build, I'd suggest mixing say a few Ordained Defender warder levels with a couple of Cleric or Pathwalker warpriest levels and then enter the Battle Templar PrC, and primarily fighting with a manufactured reach weapon instead of natural attacks. And you can of course add in the above mentioned Fiendbound Marauder warder archetype for more natural attack flavor and less passive but potentially much stronger melee control/defender abilities.

If I chose a manufactured weapon, it would be a Greatsword hands down...I never really liked playing reach weapons in general in any type of game unless a whip. The types that are reach weapons (spears, lucernes, and lances) are not my style, unfortunately.



So, what sounds more interesting:

more damage/healing focused natural attack Sanguinist
more control/debuff focused a) manufactured reach weapon wielder, b) Fiendbound Marauder or c) "freak monster werewolf"
more support/healing/defender focused a) manufactured reach weapon wielder or b) Fiendbound Marauder

Please let me know what you think or if you have any further questions.

I would like to steer away from being primary damage just because we have quite enough of them. I kinda like the idea of a freak monster werewolf and the fiendbound marauder sounds interesting as well. I would like to stay away from spell casting as much as possible because when I told them I wanted to do a martial character, they basically told me that they don't expect much from it and that I should consider one of my powerhouse spell caster. I would probably choose the middle option out of the 3 and be more apt to choose the freakish werewolf over the two but both sound interesting.

[Elricaltovilla]

The Sanguinist medic is going to be just fine as a flexible combatant, thanks to the inherent customizability of initiator disciplines. You can swap in Fool's Errand and Radiant Dawn with no issue, that will give you solid combat potential and good healing via maneuvers. You can then trait or tradition into Eternal Guardian for strong tanking and zone control. Keep Golden Lion, as that will serve you well for buffing allies

Careful selection of expertises will help keep you on point with your triage ability. Invigorating Touch allows you to heal without having to tap into your blood pool, bolstering treatment and doctor's advice give you strong buffing potential via Aid Another. Recovering Touch and improved are both pretty necessary, but after that you're pretty free in what you can take.

If you want to go crazy you can use your trait or tradition to pick up something like Elemental Flux or Riven Hourglass. Those will give you insane flexibility and power on the battlefield and off. You'll have no trouble demonstrating just how powerful a martial character can be.

[Calast]

The Sanguinist medic is going to be just fine as a flexible combatant, thanks to the inherent customizability of initiator disciplines. You can swap in Fool's Errand and Radiant Dawn with no issue, that will give you solid combat potential and good healing via maneuvers. You can then trait or tradition into Eternal Guardian for strong tanking and zone control. Keep Golden Lion, as that will serve you well for buffing allies

Careful selection of expertises will help keep you on point with your triage ability. Invigorating Touch allows you to heal without having to tap into your blood pool, bolstering treatment and doctor's advice give you strong buffing potential via Aid Another. Recovering Touch and improved are both pretty necessary, but after that you're pretty free in what you can take.

If you want to go crazy you can use your trait or tradition to pick up something like Elemental Flux or Riven Hourglass. Those will give you insane flexibility and power on the battlefield and off. You'll have no trouble demonstrating just how powerful a martial character can be.

I was hoping this thread would get your attention. Thank you very much on your input. I do like how much the sanguinist and werewolf template and prestige class work together and take advantage of the wisdom bumps. With the 3.5 DnD feat: Intuitive Attack, it helps make it more SAD.

Would you recommend Chimera soul for this or do you think that it is too damage focused?

[Elricaltovilla]

I was hoping this thread would get your attention. Thank you very much on your input. I do like how much the sanguinist and werewolf template and prestige class work together and take advantage of the wisdom bumps. With the 3.5 DnD feat: Intuitive Attack, it helps make it more SAD.

Would you recommend Chimera soul for this or do you think that it is too damage focused?

I don't think Chimera Soul is necessary for this build. You could use it instead of Fool's Errand for your damage discipline, but you'd lose out on FE's ability to pull maneuvers from any discipline, and you'd have to spend a trait or tradition to pick it up instead of a free swap.

On the other hand, Chimera Soul + Elemental Flux + Radiant Dawn + Shattered Mirror basically makes you a martial wizard, and that has its own appeal. Of course, you won't be able to do that on anything except a Mystic, I think.

[Calast]

I don't think Chimera Soul is necessary for this build. You could use it instead of Fool's Errand for your damage discipline, but you'd lose out on FE's ability to pull maneuvers from any discipline, and you'd have to spend a trait or tradition to pick it up instead of a free swap.

On the other hand, Chimera Soul + Elemental Flux + Radiant Dawn + Shattered Mirror basically makes you a martial wizard, and that has its own appeal. Of course, you won't be able to do that on anything except a Mystic, I think.

Haha, I definitely like fool's errand and the mechanic of lock. Thanks again!