The caster who cannot cast

[weckar]

So I had a crazy character idea, I think. I want to play a caster, with a casting stat of 9 or below. Then at some point in my career I want to get a +6 ability score item and suddenly have access to 5th level spells.

Until that time, though, I should probably be able to wield a weapon... Is any class going to be less of a dead weight, when played this way? Non-casting abilities, etc?

[Goaty14]

Paladin, Ranger, and maybe even Duskblade are all casting classes, and they can hit stuff pretty well.

[weckar]

The first two of which never actually get 5th level spells, of course.
Still, valid.

[Goaty14]

The first two of which never actually get 5th level spells, of course.
Still, valid.

Mystic Ranger gets 5ths. Under a reasonable reading, it gets those spells off of the wizard list (via Sword of the Arcane Order).

[Darrin]

Until that time, though, I should probably be able to wield a weapon... Is any class going to be less of a dead weight, when played this way? Non-casting abilities, etc?

Druid comes with a tag-along meatbag and can wild shape into another meatbag.

If that's a not enough dead weight, a cleric can wear heavy armor and hit things.

[Zaq]

If you can swing a few flaws and/or bonus feats, you can load up on those “dragon lineage” feats from Dragon Magic (you can take more than one of those, right? Going from memory here) that let you channel spell slots into specific Su/SLAs (forget which they are). If you’re really invested in the concept, you might get away with going Stalwart Battle Sorcerer to start out. SBS usually loses far too much flexibility to ever be a good choice, but it might get you closer to the extremely specific goal you laid out.

[weckar]

SB Sorc is actually interesting, as is Cleric. I mean, a cleric still gets turning, doesn't he?

As for the dragon lineage feats - do I technically have spell slots if I cannot use them?

[Telok]

My thought too was something that could channel or burn spells/slots for combat effects. A low stat just prevents you from casting the spells, and maybe preparing them although I'm afb and would check that.

But the 'expend a spell to <something>' abilities should work fine.

[liquidformat]

SB Sorc is actually interesting, as is Cleric. I mean, a cleric still gets turning, doesn't he?

As for the dragon lineage feats - do I technically have spell slots if I cannot use them?

By RAW no since it says "To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level."

Another possibility if you are going evil might be going tainted scholar then you just need an item that gives you +4 to cha to enter the class then you can promptly get rid of it...

[Darrin]

SB Sorc is actually interesting, as is Cleric. I mean, a cleric still gets turning, doesn't he?


A cleric also gets domain powers, and can swap them for Devotion feats. Most of those have a limited number of uses per day, but you can take Extra Turning multiple times.



As for the dragon lineage feats - do I technically have spell slots if I cannot use them?

I think so...? The text in the PHB for spontaneous casters says:

"To learn or cast a spell, a {Class} must have a {Ability} score equal to at least 10 + the spell level [...]"

For prepared casters, the text says:

"To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the {class} must have an {Ability} score equal to at least 10 + the spell level [...]"

The text that gives them spell slots doesn't appear to have any ability score requirement:

"Like other spellcasters, a {Class} can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His/her base daily spell allotment is given on Table {Chapter-Ordinal}: The {Class}."

So I believe the slots are there, granted by your class levels, but they're empty if your casting stat isn't high enough.

[Silly Name]

The 9 Charisma Sorcerer would still have the spell slots available. They would just learn a bunch of spells at once when they buff their Cha, but they could still expend the slots before that.

[MommaGoose505]

Could you remove the +cha item, lose those spells learned, before resting, then replace it in the morning and choose a new spell loadout?

[Silly Name]

That's an even iffier situation. RAW, I can't find anything that says that a Sorcerer "forgets" spells if their Charisma score is lowered, so I would say that the answer to your question is no.

RAI, I don't think I have ever seen a DM make such a ruling (at most, the lowered score can prevent you from accessing spell slots), so that's a second no.

[gorfnab]

My thought too was something that could channel or burn spells/slots for combat effects. A low stat just prevents you from casting the spells, and maybe preparing them although I'm afb and would check that.

But the 'expend a spell to <something>' abilities should work fine.

If you can swing a few flaws and/or bonus feats, you can load up on those “dragon lineage” feats from Dragon Magic (you can take more than one of those, right? Going from memory here) that let you channel spell slots into specific Su/SLAs (forget which they are). If you’re really invested in the concept, you might get away with going Stalwart Battle Sorcerer to start out. SBS usually loses far too much flexibility to ever be a good choice, but it might get you closer to the extremely specific goal you laid out.

Here's a build that uses a number of the feats and abilities that both of you have listed listed. Originally posted here by MisterKaws (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-504447.html)

Karsite(ToM) Sorcerer 18

ACFs: Stalwart Sorcerer(CM), Battle Sorcerer(UA), Spell Shield(DgS), Dragonblood Sorcerer(RotD, lv4), Domain Access(CC), Dragonpacts (DM).

2 - LA, Medium Armor Proficiency, Martial Weapon proficiency, DR 5/Magic, SR 10+HD, Magic Drain(Sp, Cha-based), Spell Healing
3 - Stalwart, Battle Sorcerer, Spell Shield, Draconic Heritage, Draconic Breath
4 -
5 - Blue Dragon Lineage
6 - Dragonblood Sorcerer Sl-Ability(lv1, Nerveskitter), Dragonpact(lv2)
7 - Domain Access(CC)
8 - Obtain Familiar(CA), Sl-Ability(lv2, Wings of Cover), Dragonpact(lv3)
9 -
10- Sl-Ability(lv3, Wings of Cover), Dragonpact(lv4)
11- Improved Familiar(CW, Winter Wolf)
12- Sl-Ability(lv4, Celerity), Dragonpact(lv5)
13-
14- Arcane Strike, Sl-Ability(lv5, Arcane Fusion, CM), Dragonpact(lv6)
15-
16- Sl-Ability(lv6, Arcane Fusion), Dragonpact(lv7)
17- Spell-Linked Familiar
18- Sl-Ability(lv7, Arcane Fusion), Dragonpact(lv8)
19-
20- Martial Training(Shadow Stride)/Open, Sl-Ability(lv8, Greater Arcane Fusion), Dragonpact(lv9)

[Edenbeast]

So I had a crazy character idea, I think. I want to play a caster, with a casting stat of 9 or below. Then at some point in my career I want to get a +6 ability score item and suddenly have access to 5th level spells.

Until that time, though, I should probably be able to wield a weapon... Is any class going to be less of a dead weight, when played this way? Non-casting abilities, etc?

Not so original as you think :P There is a famous man named Rincewind who calls himself The Wizzard... But who can't cast a single spell. You can read about him in various Discworld novels by Terry Pratchett.

Aside from that, it's an awesome idea, although sorcerers and wizards need to have a casting stat of 10 + spell level in order to learn, prepare, and cast a spell. As a wizard you could still, at the moment you get the +6 intelligence item, start copying spells in your spell book of course. As a sorcerer I would expect that the moment you put the item on and after a long rest you learn all the spells you are entitled to at your level and have them available. Suddenly you see the light! However, you would have to discuss this with your DM whether he interprets the rules this way that you can suddenly learn all those spells. When you take off the item you of course lose access to all your spell slots. I think it's pretty hilarious...

An alternative would be a divine spellcaster such as cleric or druid. They only need 10 + spell level to cast spells, so the moment you have a high enough casting stat, the spell are available to you. It's safe and practical, with armour on you can still take the role as fighter or bowman. Then again, without having to worry about arcane spell failure, you can also opt to put armour on your wizard/sorcerer and to give him some survival chance. Role-play wise the arcane route will be more fun :)

Edit: as an elf you gain proficiency with the (composite) longbow, take the elf generalist wizard racial substitution levels from Races of the Wild (level 5 bonus feat point blank shot or precise shot if you qualify, or anything else related to bows/ranged combat). Stay in the back and shoot arrows and collect scrolls (and spellbooks if you find any), because you like the incomprehensible figures. The moment you get the +6 intelligence item, copy all the spells you collected to your spellbook, and have fun (if you hadn't already). I would suggest to pick up some ray or ranged touch spells so those point blank shot feats keep their use.

[Particle_Man]

Not so original as you think :P There is a famous man named Rincewind who calls himself The Wizzard... But who can't cast a single spell. You can read about him in various Discworld novels by Terry Pratchett.

Well technically he did cast *one* single spell. :smallsmile:

Oh, another option: Play a sorcerer with a maxed out bluff skill and a high charisma and lie about being unable to cast spells. Then you can reveal the truth at a moment when the BBEG thinks you are a helpless commoner.

[Goaty14]

The 9 Charisma Sorcerer would still have the spell slots available. They would just learn a bunch of spells at once when they buff their Cha, but they could still expend the slots before that.

No? Pretty sure you'd have your spells known, but you just wouldn't be able to cast them.

[mabriss lethe]

No? Pretty sure you'd have your spells known, but you just wouldn't be able to cast them.

No, sadly. In order to "Learn or cast a spell" a sorcerer needs to meet the prerequisite ability score. No ability score = No learning the spell.

EDIT TO ADD: It just hit me that Dread Necromancer is possibly the best fit for this concept. They have a host of abilities not tied to their spellcasting, Can still utilize reserve feats since they already know all of their spells and will have spell slots available. (though they are extremely limited in the reserves they can use due to their spell list) They can rebuke undead or power feats with rebuke uses.

[Particle_Man]

What about a Beguiler? They have a lot of skills, and once they get the stat boost they have the whole beguiler spell list to hand.

[weckar]

I like the IDEA of beguiler, but the problem mostly there is that they are spellcaster/skillmonkeys. And their casting stat is INT. So I'd be lacking the skill points for their secondary role.

[ben-zayb]

Divine Bard requires Wisdom for casting spells, but would definitely still contribute to your party.

If pseudocasting qualifies, how about Lurk (fake rogue), Divine Mind (fake marshal), or Psychic Warrior (fake fighter)?

[Lans]

I think stalwart battle sorcerer with arcane strike can work pretty well

[Hurnn]

I thought about doing it as a druid by level 2 you can probably afford a +2 wis item which would bring 1st and second level spells on line lvl then at 4th lvl +1 wis will see you through 3rd level spells.