Build Request, Water Ninja

[ViperX]

Hello,
my DM is starting a new campaign in 3.5e which I have little experience with. I know the class/build possibilities are insane. I was hoping to be able to create a sneaky ninja like character that is also able to minipulate water. I am sure it’s possible, but it’s a bit overwhelming going from the relative simplicity of 5e to 3.5e. I’m looking for a step by step guide from 1-20.

My wants are as such.

Race: High Elf
Weapon: Straight edge katana.
As many water spells as possible, with a decent ability to do Melee damage, and sneak around.

If anybody could help me that would be amazing. I have a few weeks before I need to build.

[Troacctid]

Well the obvious choice would be the Water Ninja class from Dragon #354.

[weckar]

So, "High Elf"... is that a thing in 3.5? I mean, it may be a variant somewhere?

Manipulating water is also a limited domain in 3.5, as it is a very uncommon spell descriptor...

I suppose one could go Water Shugenja with somesort of gish option tacked on... They don't have access to Divine Power, but an OA Samurai dip should suffice. Afterwards, Fist of Raziel would usually be okay but the alignment requirement doesn't mesh well with the ninja archetype.

[Celestia]

So, "High Elf"... is that a thing in 3.5? I mean, it may be a variant somewhere?
It's the standard PHB elf.

[liquidformat]

So, "High Elf"... is that a thing in 3.5? I mean, it may be a variant somewhere?

Manipulating water is also a limited domain in 3.5, as it is a very uncommon spell descriptor...

I suppose one could go Water Shugenja with somesort of gish option tacked on... They don't have access to Divine Power, but an OA Samurai dip should suffice. Afterwards, Fist of Raziel would usually be okay but the alignment requirement doesn't mesh well with the ninja archetype.

aren't high elfs just standard elfs in forgotten realms? Going Wu Jen gish would probably be a better way to go then Shugenja.

[weckar]

Hey, look at the ball go! #gotitrolling

[J-H]

What level are you building at?

There are not many water-specific spells, and the ones that do exist are mostly going to be arcane, as far as I can recall. You would want sorc, wizard, or Wu Jen (specialized eastern wizard) caster levels for those.

However, the main arcane caster classes do not advance melee fighting abilities (base attack bonus & thus attacks per round) much, with the exception of Cleric or Druid.

You would probably want to have a couple of levels of some sort of melee class, then a couple of levels of wu jen (or whatever), and then a class that advances both BAB and casting, like Eldritch Knight or Abjurant Champion. Ultimately, you're going to end up with a second-rate fighter and third-rate caster if you do that, since you'll lack higher level spells, higher DCs (due to stat spread), and will be behind on melee combat as well.

To actually function..
Do you want to be a guy with a sword who knows a bit of magic?
Or do you want to be a guy with magic who carries a sword around?

Magic at level 10: I hit everything in an area for 10d6 damage, or force a save to avoid being blind/held/slowed
Sword at level 10, without serious investment (STR boost, power attack, bonus damage, maneuvers, etc.): I maybe hit one guy for 1d10+1d6+9 damage

[DeTess]

Hello,
my DM is starting a new campaign in 3.5e which I have little experience with. I know the class/build possibilities are insane. I was hoping to be able to create a sneaky ninja like character that is also able to minipulate water. I am sure it’s possible, but it’s a bit overwhelming going from the relative simplicity of 5e to 3.5e. I’m looking for a step by step guide from 1-20.

My wants are as such.

Race: High Elf
Weapon: Straight edge katana.
As many water spells as possible, with a decent ability to do Melee damage, and sneak around.

If anybody could help me that would be amazing. I have a few weeks before I need to build.

How open is your DM to minor homebrew/alterations? You could play a Swordsage (from Tome of Battle) focusing on the desert wind maneuver, but change the fire effects into similar water effects (the way with the smallest changes from RAW would be for the DM to allow you to take and apply the energy substitution metamagic to your maneuvers).

[Telonius]

For standard 3.5, the "Wavekeeper" prestige class form Stormwrack is probably going to be the best general ability for water manipulation. It's designed with Druids in mind (9/10 casting), but would work for Ranger too. (You can probably use some tricks to get in as a Cleric or other divine caster as well, if you can manage to get an aquatic animal companion somehow). Ranger gives you proficiency in all martial weapons, and a bunch of sneaky skills, so you could probably get fairly close to what you're thinking of when you say, "ninja."

[ATHATH]

Normally, I'd recommend a (Trickster ACF) Spellthief for people who want to cast, sneak, and stab, but they get almost NO [Water] spells natively. It looks like a lot of the [Water] spells are on the Druid spell list, so I'm gonna whip up a Druid of some kind.

Do you want to actually cast water SPELLS, or would magical abilities that manipulate water suffice?

Do you want to keep Wild Shape or your Animal Companion?

[ViperX]

Normally, I'd recommend a (Trickster ACF) Spellthief for people who want to cast, sneak, and stab, but they get almost NO [Water] spells natively. It looks like a lot of the [Water] spells are on the Druid spell list, so I'm gonna whip up a Druid of some kind.

Do you want to actually cast water SPELLS, or would magical abilities that manipulate water suffice?

Do you want to keep Wild Shape or your Animal Companion?

I’m fine with water minipulation, and having an animal companion would be cool.

I primarily want to be a melee damage dealer, with water magic for flare. A one handed katana, and some flipping and stabbing, while blasting someone in the face with water.

Everything 3.5 is fair game. My DM suggested checking out the Warblade from ToB.

[ATHATH]

I’m fine with water minipulation, and having an animal companion would be cool.

I primarily want to be a melee damage dealer, with water magic for flare. A one handed katana, and some flipping and stabbing, while blasting someone in the face with water.

Everything 3.5 is fair game. My DM suggested checking out the Warblade from ToB.
Are you okay with using cold/ice like Sub-Zero and/or having your water attacks deal cold damage instead of bludgeoning damage? Alternatively/additionally, are you okay with spraying people with scalding hot water to deal fire damage?

A Psychic Warrior that takes some Expanded Knowledge feats for some Kineticist powers (or just a straight Kineticist or Ardent that takes some full BaB PrCs (and uses Expanded Knowledge to pick up Hustle for movement+Full Attacks) might work.

I'll need to check, but I THINK that Control Objects can control 100 lbs. of water from a larger mass of water. Energy Missile can easily be refluffed as bolts of water. Energy Cone can also easily be refluffed as a tidal wave.

Water Devotion can summon an elemental once per day, and the Elemental Steward power can summon some arctines for you.

[Thurbane]

Normally, I'd recommend a (Trickster ACF) Spellthief for people who want to cast, sneak, and stab, but they get almost NO [Water] spells natively.

Water Bloodline feat would add 1 spell/level of a watery nature.

[ATHATH]

Ooh, and we can throw in Ebon Saint, too. That'll help with the sneaking, although it'll bring drag BAB even further down into the gutter (relative to the BAB that you should have at your level).

[ATHATH]

What level are you starting at? War Mind might be an option, but it comes online a bit late.

EDIT: Wait, I forgot that War Mind is a bit terrible.

Uh, maybe something like Ardent 4/Hit-and-Run Tactics Dirty (Fighter) Fighter 1/(Illithid) Slayer 2/Ebon Saint 5/(Illithid) Slayer 8? Use the Subsitute Powers option/ACF to trick out the Water mantle with some cool powers. Drop the Hit-and-Run ACF if you want to use heavy armor and/or tower shields. Don't forget to take the Practiced Manifester feat to abuse its weird way of interacting with the Ardent's powers known progression!

I THINK you can apply one of the Fighter variants that changes your bonus feat list and your list of class skills, then trade out your bonus feats for Sneak Attack with Dirty Fighter, but don't quote me on that.

[ViperX]

Starting at level 1.

[ATHATH]

Starting at level 1.
I THINK my build will work from level 1, although it might take a bit for the "sneaking" stuff to kick in (and I think you'll need a good INT score (and a class skill-granting feat or two) to get the skill points needed to get into the required PrCs).

While you're here, do you want a primer on the major differences between 5e and 3.5e to keep in mind/some good things to know?

[mabriss lethe]

OK. I have a plan. It really only requires a single bit of refluffing. (3.5 is oddly lacking in water based options compared to nearly everything else)

Shapesand from Sandstorm.

Refluff it as a liquid instead of sand, and you're good to go. Mechanically, it will do pretty much everything you want out of a water manipulator. Make sure you have a decent wisdom score to make controlling it easier.

The Water Devotion feat from C. Div, is also a decent option.

There are also some elemental grafts in eberron that might suit your character.

[ViperX]

I THINK my build will work from level 1, although it might take a bit for the "sneaking" stuff to kick in (and I think you'll need a good INT score (and a class skill-granting feat or two) to get the skill points needed to get into the required PrCs).

While you're here, do you want a primer on the major differences between 5e and 3.5e to keep in mind/some good things to know?

A run down wouldn’t hurt

[ViperX]

OK. I have a plan. It really only requires a single bit of refluffing. (3.5 is oddly lacking in water based options compared to nearly everything else)

Shapesand from Sandstorm.

Refluff it as a liquid instead of sand, and you're good to go. Mechanically, it will do pretty much everything you want out of a water manipulator. Make sure you have a decent wisdom score to make controlling it easier.

The Water Devotion feat from C. Div, is also a decent option.

There are also some elemental grafts in eberron that might suit your character.

Sandstorm is a class?

[mabriss lethe]

No. I meant the alchemical item, shapesand, from the book, Sandstorm. If you were to refluff it as water instead of sand, it could handle the water manipulation aspect of the character pretty much independently from the build itself.

[Menzath]

Before I give my ideas/opinion, I would like know a few things.

What sources are allowed/available to you and your group.

Do you have an idea of the level of optimization that your group plays at.

And do you know what the current party makeup looks like?

[ViperX]

Before I give my ideas/opinion, I would like know a few things.

What sources are allowed/available to you and your group.

Do you have an idea of the level of optimization that your group plays at.

And do you know what the current party makeup looks like?

Anything currently published in 3.5e is acceptable. And no to the other two questions.

[Menzath]

Your best bet may be to go druid then, use the acf to trade your animal companion for a water elemental, and prestige to wave keeper when you get to lvl5-8. Although you could just go full druid and be fine.
Druids probably get the largest selection of water based and themed spells anyways.

Presonal fave is a low level spell kelpstrand, and higher level ones include tsuanmi and tidal surge. Your overall attack bonus will be lower than pure meele, but you can shore that up with a plethora of spells particularly the bite line from spell compendium. And the animal form can be fluffed as a type of transformation jutsu.

[ATHATH]

Your best bet may be to go druid then, use the acf to trade your animal companion for a water elemental, and prestige to wave keeper when you get to lvl5-8. Although you could just go full druid and be fine.
Druids probably get the largest selection of water based and themed spells anyways.

Presonal fave is a low level spell kelpstrand, and higher level ones include tsuanmi and tidal surge. Your overall attack bonus will be lower than pure meele, but you can shore that up with a plethora of spells particularly the bite line from spell compendium. And the animal form can be fluffed as a type of transformation jutsu.
Eh, I think that the psionic way is better- you can control water (not just make it rain or summon a water elemental) at level 1 with Control Objects.

The katana thing might be an issue (katanas are represented mechanically as masterwork bastard swords)- Ardents don't get martial weapon proficiency. Fortunately, you can get around this by making your first level Fighter and taking the Hidden Talent (Control Objects) feat (or just wait until 2nd level to bend water, but that might take a few sessions).

Make sure that your katana was passed down to you from a family member and that you have a Good alignment- that way, you can take the Ancestral Relic feat later so that you can more easily improve it as you level up (instead of ditching it for the first magic longsword that you find).

[ATHATH]

Forgot that Sanctified Psion exists; I might want to try to find a way to fit that into the build.

What level will the campaign END at?

The primer is coming, but the computer that I'm typing it on is low on battery.

[Menzath]

Eh, I think that the psionic way is better- you can control water (not just make it rain or summon a water elemental) at level 1 with Control Objects.

The katana thing might be an issue (katanas are represented mechanically as masterwork bastard swords)- Ardents don't get martial weapon proficiency. Fortunately, you can get around this by making your first level Fighter and taking the Hidden Talent (Control Objects) feat (or just wait until 2nd level to bend water, but that might take a few sessions).

Make sure that your katana was passed down to you from a family member and that you have a Good alignment- that way, you can take the Ancestral Relic feat later so that you can more easily improve it as you level up (instead of ditching it for the first magic longsword that you find).

I agree, psionics are amazing, I just tried to keep things a little simpler because I'm not sure how strong or even what classes the rest of his party will be. And druid covers just about every base, without stepping on anyone's toes.
If you knew someone else was going to have healing and such I would actually take a look at psionic rogue.

[ATHATH]

I agree, psionics are amazing, I just tried to keep things a little simpler because I'm not sure how strong or even what classes the rest of his party will be. And druid covers just about every base, without stepping on anyone's toes.
If you knew someone else was going to have healing and such I would actually take a look at psionic rogue.
Forgot that Psychic Rogue was a thing.

That makes things much easier- just go Psychic Rogue (with some PrCs, of course) and use Hidden Talent and Expanded Knowledge to pick up any cool, water-themed (or able to be made to be water-themed) powers that you don't already have access to, with no need for dipping or multiclassing.

Yeah, definitely start as a Psychic Rogue: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b

And have a handbook: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?234327-3-5-Thinking-on-your-Feet-The-Psychic-Rogue-Handbook

Fun fact: In 3.5e, Sneak Attack damage isn't limited to being only usable once per turn.

Don't forget to pick up the Craven feat to significantly boost your Sneak Attack damage.

[ATHATH]

Okay, 5e to 3.5 primer:
You get three actions per round: a move action, a standard action, and a swift action. You may combine your move and standard action into a full-round action on/for any given turn, if you so desire. If you don't move in a round, you can take a 5' step, which is basically 5 feet of movement that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. Making a SINGLE attack costs a standard action. Making any more attacks than a SINGLE attack requires a type of full-round action known as a full-attack (even if you're a level 20 Fighter) unless an ability explicitly tells you otherwise. This is why many melee builds look for a way to move AND full-attack in the same turn. Fortunately for you, the Hustle and Psionic Lion's Charge powers can give you that ability.

You get a certain thing called "BAB" (short for Base Attack Bonus) from your class and prestige class levels, as indicated for the advancement tables of those classes. Different classes stack to determine your BAB, and your BAB gives you a bonus on all attack rolls equal to its value (i.e. an 11th level fighter has a BAB of 11, and gets a +11 to all attack rolls from their BAB). Once your BAB hits certain milestones (+6, +11, and +16), you get an extra attack per full-attack that receives a penalty on its to-hit roll. It might sound confusing, but you'll probably understand it once you see it in action/look it up.

Most bonuses of the same type do not stack, with some exceptions. Thus, if something gives you a +3 competence bonus to Craft (Underwater Basketweaving) checks, but something else gives you a +5 competence bonus to that, you can't stack them together (but you could stack one of them with a +3 luck bonus to Craft (Underwater Basketweaving) checks).

I'm gonna leave it to someone else to explain skills (and skill points), because how skills work in 3.5 differs greatly to how they work in 5e.

Multiclassing is a bit different in this edition (no ability score prerequistes, for example), but you shouldn't have to worry about the multiclassing rules too much, since you'll only have one base class (Psychic Rogue).

Almost all spells in this edition don't require concentration, and those that do take up your standard action every turn. Fortunately, psionic classes have access to Solicit Psycrystal, which basically lets them make their psycrystal (sort of like the psionic equivalent of a familiar) concentrate on a power for them.

More things provoke opportunity attacks in 3.5 than in 5e. Spellcasting, for example, provokes AoOs in 3.5 unless the person casting the spell can succeed on a Concentration skill check.

Stealth is two separate skills in 3.5: Hide and Move Silently. You'll usually need both to sneak around effectively (unless you're a spellcaster, in which case you can just cast Silence and Invisibility on yourself).

The Darkstalker feat is near-mandatory for sneaky characters, as it lets them not get auto-detected by senses like Blindsight and Tremorsense.

Undead are immune to a boatload of effects in 3.5, including sneak attack damage (due to their immunity to crits), mind-affecting effects, paralysis, death effects, and poison. You can be one yourself by becoming a necropolitan.

Saving throws in 3.5 are split into three categories: Will, Fortitude, and Reflex. Will saves are dependent on WIS, Fort saves on CON, and Ref saves on DEX. Each class also gives bonuses to saves, as indicated in their progression tables.

XP is an expendable resource in 3.5, and is used in magic item crafting, the casting of certain spells, and other things.

Unlike in 5e, many effects in 3.5 don't let you re-save against them at the beginning or end of every turn. If you fail your save against a Confusion spell (and aren't immune to it), you're gonna be stuck like that until someone uses an ability or spell to break the effect on you or the spell's duration ends, and not a moment before.

Bounded accuracy does not have much of a presence in 3.5; bonuses can get really high, and you can easily have over +20 to to-hit rolls or to certain skill checks way before 20th level, and combat at high levels usually becomes rocket tag. Martial characters are, as a general rule of thumb, expected to have a weapon with an effective enhancement bonus of +(their level/4).

3.5 can and will let you screw yourself over with poor character building decisions, and the power levels of characters can vary wildly. This is why we asked what the optimization level of your group was- even at first level, you can play anything from a literal god (as in, a character with divine ranks that has the ability to give itself whatever powers it wants) to a mentally damaged commoner that must carry a pig (whose weight always matches or exceeds his carrying capacity) around at all times for fear of being flayed alive by Orcus, and the literal god and the commoner being in the same party would probably gonna make encounter balance (among other things) difficult for your DM.

Uh, those should be the basics, although other people can add on more stuff (including stuff about skills).

[ViperX]

My party will likely consist of a caster/melee type. Cleric of some sort, another rogue. A Druid, paladin, and a monk. At least those themes. As far as what level will the campaign end? The campaign is homebrew, and the group we have has been playing the same
Campaign for over a year now in 5e, following a chapter like system. We are starting the 4th chapter soon, and when we get to the 5th chapter the DM would like to try out 3.5e and see what fun builds we can come up with.

[ATHATH]

My party will likely consist of a caster/melee type. Cleric of some sort, another rogue. A Druid, paladin, and a monk. At least those themes. As far as what level will the campaign end? The campaign is homebrew, and the group we have has been playing the same
Campaign for over a year now in 5e, following a chapter like system. We are starting the 4th chapter soon, and when we get to the 5th chapter the DM would like to try out 3.5e and see what fun builds we can come up with.
Do you know any more specifics about them (is the Cleric going to be healing, buffing, hitting things with a stick, throwing around save or sucks, something else, some combination of the above, or what?)?

[ViperX]

Do you know any more specifics about them (is the Cleric going to be healing, buffing, hitting things with a stick, throwing around save or sucks, something else, some combination of the above, or what?)?

I do not know sadly. She usually tries to be a healer, with buffs. And then the other stuff.