Swords Bard Ruling

[ThatDuckGrant]

I’m considering playing a College of Swords Bard and I’m curious if I’m reading the blade flourish feature correctly. The text in question is:

“...and if a weapon attack that you make as part of this action hits a creature, you can use one of the following Blade Flourish options of your choice. You can use only one Blade Flourish option per turn.”

There are 3 choices for blade flourishes, and my interpretation based on the above is that you can only use one per turn, but you can use it as many times as you hit creatures with weapon attacks. Is that correct? Or can I only use a single blade flourish on one hit creature once per turn? I think the cleric’s divine strike feature is worded in that way, which is notably different from the wording in the blade flourishes:

“Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal an extra 1d8 damage”

Thoughts? As stated, I’m thinking that the bard ought to be able to use the same blade flourish option on each of its hits, due to needing to spend a bardic inspiration dice to do so. However, that means that at level 14, a dual-wielding character could add 3d6 to its AC every single round (for an average of a 10.5 boost to AC with no resources expended).

[Snowbluff]

I don't think it's what intended. RAW, it seems a little ambiguous, but I'd play it safe. If this is true my Paladin2/BardX will love hitting Bard 14. >:3

I wouldn't want to use it most of the time anyway. You only get Cha inspiration per rest, so before 14 you'd eat through your dice really fast. At 14 you're a really strong caster, so I think of lot of your rounds you'd be casting.

Also, I am a little sad that the cleave one is so weak. It'd be cool if it added weapon damage, but I feel like the AC is worth way more.

[Man_Over_Game]

I think the key component that's being missed is the word "used" rather than "choose" when it says "You can use only one Blade Flourish option per turn.”


It says that explicitly so that Sword Bards don't benefit from going Two Weapon Fighter or abusing bonus actions or reaction attacks. The Cleric bonus explicitly says what it says so that you CAN benefit from your bonus action attacks (like with War Cleric).

Rather, it's saying:
When you make a normal attack action, you can buff one of those attacks with a special move.


I think it'd be cool to use one of these abilities multiple times, but I don't think that's the intent.
As for the cleave, I realize they're a lot better once I realized that it's risk-free damage. The damage is a bit low, but crowds are generally more difficult than singular bosses that risk being out-actioned.

[ThatDuckGrant]

Man Over Game, you bring up a couple good points, and have definitely changed my interpretation in one form, which I think makes the whole thing more balanced.

First, I agree that the word “choose” would have been more clear than is the word “use,” but I disagree that the word “use” is decisive of not being able to use the ability more than once. I think the main difference between the two are the phrases “once on each of your turns” for the cleric and “use one option” per turn for the bard.

Secondly however, your interpretation is decisive. A bonus action attack is definitely not eligible for a blade flourish. A reaction is questionable, but I would probably rule against it.

In my opinion, allowing flourishes on both of your two weapon weapon attacks during your action ought to be allowed. Twice per turn, and only if you hit on those two doesn’t seem OP to me.

[Keravath]

I'm don't think I would agree with your interpretation.

As you mention it says:

"You can use only one Blade Flourish option per turn."

However, when you read the defensive flourish:

"You also add the number rolled to your AC until the start of your
next turn."

If this was allowed to be used twice in a turn you would be adding 2 dice rolls to your AC. Personally, I think this is an unlikely interpretation.

Your interpretation is based on the idea that an option is selected and may then be applied to every possible hit in the turn if you take the Attack action and happen to hit a target.

It says you can take any of the flourish options of your choice. Each option costs an inspiration die. However, no where does it indicate that this can be applied to more than the one hit that triggered the usage. You get to choose one option. Choosing that option expends an inpiration die and has certain side effects. If you hit again, you don't have the option to receive the benefits a second time since you can only choose one option and choosing the option expends the inspiration die to achieve the effects. If you hit again, you can't get a second defensive flourish for example since you already picked that option and received the benefits.

[ThatDuckGrant]

So this is the answer I thought I was going to get. I agree that it seems unlikely that you could add 2 dice to your AC, but I disagree that it’s written in a way that ought to be interpreted that way.

There seem to be 4 conditions to be able to use a blade flourish:
1. You must use the attack action (this eliminates SCAG cantrips or bonus action attacks)
2. You must hit an enemy with one of the attacks included in the attack action. Again, bonus action and reaction attacks are out.
3. You must expend a bardic inspiration die (or a d6 after level 14).
4. You can use only one option.

The first three seem pretty clear. The condition up for debate is the meaning of using only one option. I understand that I seem to be outnumbered here, and it might be a tough sell, but I think there’s a fair argument to be made that after selecting one option to use, it may be used multiple times so long as the other conditions are met.

[ThatDuckGrant]

Additionally, I think the phrasing “You can use only one Blade Flourish option per turn.” Would have been crystal clear if they had removed the word “option” from the sentence.

“You can use only one Blade Flourish per turn.” Obviously states you can only do it once a turn. The addition of the word “option” ought to mean there’s a different meaning to the phrase.

[Callak_Remier]

Potentially you could get 2 blade flourishes per Round

On your turn
As part of a regular attack add a flourish

On an enemies turn
With an opportunity attack add a flourish

[Callak_Remier]

[QUOTE=Keravath;23428747]I'm don't think I would agree with your interpretation.

As you mention it says:

"You can use only one Blade Flourish option per turn."

However, when you read the defensive flourish:

"You also add the number rolled to your AC until the start of your
next turn."

Effects that add armour class from the same feature do not stack.

[AHF]

Effects that add armour class from the same feature do not stack.

Was going to say the same thing. If you interpret the rule to allow multiple uses of this, they would not stack. You would simply get the better of the two.

[Cerefel]

Secondly however, your interpretation is decisive. A bonus action attack is definitely not eligible for a blade flourish. A reaction is questionable, but I would probably rule against it.

Why wouldn't a bonus action attack work? It's an attack you make on your turn and the ability makes no mention of the attack action :smallconfused:

[Man_Over_Game]

Why wouldn't a bonus action attack work? It's an attack you make on your turn and the ability makes no mention of the attack action :smallconfused:

Potentially you could get 2 blade flourishes per Round

On your turn
As part of a regular attack add a flourish

On an enemies turn
With an opportunity attack add a flourish


Man Over Game, you bring up a couple good points, and have definitely changed my interpretation in one form, which I think makes the whole thing more balanced.

First, I agree that the word “choose” would have been more clear than is the word “use,” but I disagree that the word “use” is decisive of not being able to use the ability more than once. I think the main difference between the two are the phrases “once on each of your turns” for the cleric and “use one option” per turn for the bard.

Secondly however, your interpretation is decisive. A bonus action attack is definitely not eligible for a blade flourish. A reaction is questionable, but I would probably rule against it.





PLEASE READ THIS PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT:

"At 3rd level, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn, your walking speed increases by 10 feet until the end of the turn, and if a weapon attack that you make as part of this action hits a creature, you can use one of the following Blade Flourish options of your choice. You can use only one Blade Flourish option per turn."

Meaning, this only works with attacks provided from expending your main action for the Attack action. This does not benefit from attacks provided by any other source, including bonus actions or reactions.

[ThatDuckGrant]

Was going to say the same thing. If you interpret the rule to allow multiple uses of this, they would not stack. You would simply get the better of the two.

I also think that’s a plenty fair ruling. I’m actually more concerned with the ability to push multiple times in a round, as I was hoping to build this character into a spirit guardians machine at level 10 and get 2 levels in warlock for Grasp of Hadar so I could push or pull opponents into range for spirits.

I guess it really doesn’t matter all that much, but it bugs me when things are written ambiguously like that. Like I said, if they wanted you to only be able to use it once, they could’ve just left out the word “option” and there would’ve been no argument.

[Dudewithknives]

PLEASE READ THIS PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT:

"At 3rd level, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn, your walking speed increases by 10 feet until the end of the turn, and if a weapon attack that you make as part of this action hits a creature, you can use one of the following Blade Flourish options of your choice. You can use only one Blade Flourish option per turn."

Meaning, this only works with attacks provided from expending your main action for the Attack action. This does not benefit from attacks provided by any other source, including bonus actions or reactions.

The more reidculous thing is that it never mentions melee weapon, I played a swords bard with a hand crossbow.

[Man_Over_Game]

Very true! I saw the same thing, but:


The fighting styles only benefit melee weapons
One flourish increases AC, a bit irrelevant to a ranged character
One requires you to be adjacent to an enemy, not ideal for ranged characters
One requires you to move adjacent to your target, very much not ideal for ranged characters


Funnily enough, you can use the Slashing Flourish to shoot an enemy that's far away, and then hit an enemy that's adjacent to you with the same damage. I'm not sure how that works with a Crossbow (I shoot THROUGH the guy!), but it's completely valid.

[Dudewithknives]

Very true! I saw the same thing, but:


The fighting styles only benefit melee weapons
One flourish increases AC, a bit irrelevant to a ranged character
One requires you to be adjacent to an enemy, not ideal for ranged characters
One requires you to move adjacent to your target, very much not ideal for ranged characters


Funnily enough, you can use the Slashing Flourish to shoot an enemy that's far away, and then hit an enemy that's adjacent to you with the same damage. I'm not sure how that works with a Crossbow (I shoot THROUGH the guy!), but it's completely valid.

With the range of a hand crossbow I was in melee range plenty. It with crossbow expert it was not so bad. Spend a bardic music for some bonus damage and an average of 3 ac or so is good business, did not last long enough to make it to the free d6 a round.

[Theodoxus]

I'm not sure why it wasn't written as You can use only one Blade Flourish option per turn round.

You can't use it more than once a round regardless - but noting it as turn brings up these questions from lack of reading comprehension.

[Tanarii]

I'm not sure why it wasn't written as You can use only one Blade Flourish option per turn round.

You can't use it more than once a round regardless - but noting it as turn brings up these questions from lack of reading comprehension.
Because rounds don't really exist in 5e. Nothing really uses them.

[ThatDuckGrant]

Because rounds don't really exist in 5e. Nothing really uses them.

That’s silly. You only get one reaction per round, legendary actions are by round, and the whispers bard’s psychic blades specifically mention once per round.

Plenty of things mention rounds. Whoever wrote the college of swords script was obviously having a tough day...

[Tanarii]

That’s silly. You only get one reaction per round, legendary actions are by round, and the whispers bard’s psychic blades specifically mention once per round.

When you take a reaction, you can’t take another one until the start of your next turn.
PHB 190

Only one legendary action option can be used at
a time and only at the end of another creature's turn. A legendary creature regains spent legendary actions at the start of its turn.
MM 11

You're right on Pschic Blades. They're one of the few things that mentions rounds. But they're an exception from an expansion that proves the rule. 5e goes out of its way to avoid using "rounds" to define limitations on use.

[Kadesh]

Chilling Grasp?

[Theodoxus]

Because rounds don't really exist in 5e. Nothing really uses them.

Tradition is a horrible reason to justify something.

Rounds are defined, they exist in game. Lots of spells use a Round as their duration when they could have simply put "until the start of your next turn" - and in this one instance WotC decides on brevity? (I'm looking at you, index.)

My point still stands though - it's not like Sneak Attack, where defining it as once per round ruins OAs and other 'off turn' shenanigans. Even Action Surge wouldn't work with how Blade Flourish is currently worded - so changing it to Round would again alleviate any possible misreading of the ability.

[Tanarii]

Tradition is a horrible reason to justify something.5e not using rounds, and instead almost always referencing turns, is an innovation. Not a tradition. Tradition is using rounds to define duration. And thinking in terms of rounds is an older edition mentality and common error for players of those editions.


Rounds are defined, they exist in game. Lots of spells use a Round as their duration when they could have simply put "until the start of your next turn"Name them.

[Snowbluff]

Because rounds don't really exist in 5e. Nothing really uses them.

Well, they are part of the rules, and I know mods use them to track events in combat.

A typical combat encounter is a clash between two sides, a flurry of weapon swings, feints, parries, footwork, and Spellcasting. The game organizes the chaos of combat into a cycle of rounds and turns. A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world. During a round, each participant in a battle takes a turn. The order of turns is determined at the beginning of a combat encounter, when everyone rolls initiative. Once everyone has taken a turn, the fight continues to the next round if neither side has defeated the other.


In combat and other fast-paced situations, the game relies on rounds, a 6-second span of time described in chapter 9.

Which means a round is 6 seconds, spells listed in minutes are 10 rounds.

[Theodoxus]

5e not using rounds, and instead almost always referencing turns, is an innovation. Not a tradition. Tradition is using rounds to define duration. And thinking in terms of rounds is an older edition mentality and common error for players of those editions.

Name them.

Wow, ok, I meant you using the lack of the use of Round as a definition to support the lack of using Round as a definition. But ok, deflection noted.

As for spells? Sure, I'll do you work for you

Absorb Elements
Blade Ward
Booming Blade
Chill Touch
Color Spray
Command
Guiding Bolt
Message
Sending
Shield
Teleportation Circle
Transport Via Plants
True Strike

[PeteNutButter]

I believe the intent is that you only get to use Blade Flourish once per turn. Like with so many other things in 5e, it seems to be a bit poorly written.

Assuming you could use more than one per turn there are some exploits you could do:

A Fighter 11+/Bard 5+ can attack 6 times with action surge, 7 with haste (all are the attack action). If he had a way to boost cha up enough (24) to get 7 flourishes he could flourish for 7d8 adding all that to his AC (once per short rest). If a teammate casts a Hold Person/Monster on the target first, it doubles to 14d8 damage and AC. That's a silly high average of 63 bonus AC.

Conversely a Swords Bard 15+/Fighter 2 could make 5 attacks with haste and use his d12 inspiration die for 5d12 or 10d12 on crits. That's an average 65. A level 15 Swords Bard would add an average of 7 AC each round without spending resources, or 10.5 if he is hasted as he should be. Even that busts the hell out of bounded accuracy.

All of this seems to me to reinforce that these are once a turn sort of thing, as you could easily reach triple digit AC, or almost 3 times the soft AC cap of 39 where the Terrasque can only land a 20 to hit you.

Yes, these stack. It's not like 3.5e where bonuses have names that don't stack. Only spells have limitations of not stacking.

When making a ruling, it's best to start by asking "does it break the game?" This seems to check that box. IMO do it once per turn and be happy you aren't playing a valor bard.

[Tanarii]

(Self-scrubbed; I've taken this thread too far off topic.)

[Snowbluff]

Yes. They exist as a rule. But as Theo just showed with his incredibly short list, my original point stands. Nothing really uses them. So they don't really exist, for all intents and purposes.

Literally any spell that uses a real time duration. :p