Who are the 9 sides?

[keybounce]

I find it intersting that TDO, Loki, Rat and Tiamat are enough to apply the quadruple quiddity on Snarl. Maybe they are conspiring to destroy one of the good-aligned planes before sealing Snarl again. That would explain why Loki is so intent on saving the world with Gates.


Book spoilers (though actually depicted in 1143): Rat, Tiamat, and Loki basically helped the Dark One from getting ganked by the other gods.

Then, the Dark One's High Priest, a.k.a. Redcloak, destroys Azure City, the largest Southern population center. Rat is pissed the same way Tiamat was pissed when the IFCC allowed Vaarsuvius to kill 1/4 of all black dragons in the world. Rat and Tiamat lost a huge chunk of their divine power (mortal worship) because of these incidents.

So, while it's possible that TeamEvilGods could do something, they hate each other. Loki is the only one that can do any communication, and it actually looks like he is trying.

So what are the actual nine sides now? By this point, we should (you'd think?) know all the players and what's actually going on (... planet inside the snarl? ...). Can we identify the 9 sides of this battle?

[The Pilgrim]

Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, Lawful Evil, Neutral God, True Neutral, Neutral Evil, Chaotic Good, Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Evil.

[Ruck]

The Order of the Stick / its allies
Redcloak / The Dark One
Xykon
Hel
Gods who want to save the world
Gods who want to destroy the world
The IFCC
The Vector Legion
The Linear Guild (RIP)

[Crisis21]

Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, Lawful Evil, Neutral God, True Neutral, Neutral Evil, Chaotic Good, Chaotic Neutral, Chaotic Evil.
Except we've always known about the various alignments and when
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html was posted, we explicitly didn't know about some of the sides in the Gate conflict.

[The Pilgrim]

Except we've always known about the various alignments and when
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html was posted, we explicitly didn't know about some of the sides in the Gate conflict.

Of course we did not. But note that the Demon Roach counted at least nine. Not "nine". And we have been recently shown eight more sides (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html).

[Riftwolf]

A more interesting question (for me) when seeing this threads name;
Is there a nine sided shape with equal faces?
A quick Google search says there are no regular nonahedrons.
I have thus answered my own question. I hope we all enjoyed learning together.

[multilis]

Of course we did not. But note that the Demon Roach counted at least nine. Not "nine". And we have been recently shown eight more sides (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html).

Snarl
Does the Holey Brotherhood count as a different side or part of Snarl's side?
GIGGLES (Growing Orc following to become rival of Dark One)

[Rollin]

The Order of the Stick / its allies
Redcloak / The Dark One
Xykon
Hel
Gods who want to save the world
Gods who want to destroy the world
The IFCC
The Vector Legion
The Linear Guild (RIP)

I’ll go with this, modulo Banjo. :smallbiggrin:

[D.One]

A more interesting question (for me) when seeing this threads name;
Is there a nine sided shape with equal faces?
A quick Google search says there are no regular nonahedrons.
I have thus answered my own question. I hope we all enjoyed learning together.

Of course! Knowing is half the battle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0145.html)!

[Sir_Norbert]

Of course we did not. But note that the Demon Roach counted at least nine. Not "nine". And we have been recently shown eight more sides (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html).
We're now in book 6. The commentary to book 4 said that we would be introduced to one of the "sides" in the next book. That makes perfect sense if the "sides" are factions (Tarquin's team would be the new faction introduced) but makes no sense with the "alignments" interpretation.

But yes, the original line said "at least nine". By this stage, with Tarquin's team and the different factions among the gods included in the picture, it's not difficult to count up at least nine, so we don't have to worry any more about that line as a hint or prediction.

[D.One]

Water
Earth
Fire
Air
The Avatar
Metal
Lava
Lightning
Blood

:biggrin::tongue:

[RaveDave92084]

A more interesting question (for me) when seeing this threads name;
Is there a nine sided shape with equal faces?
A quick Google search says there are no regular nonahedrons.
I have thus answered my own question. I hope we all enjoyed learning together.

Some links of curiosity related to 9-sided dice and their discussion:
https://my.solidworks.com/reader/forumthreads/218502/how-to-model-a-9-sided-dice
http://forum.make-the-cut.com/discussion/44428/needed-a-pattern-for-9-sided-dice (shows versions of 9-sided dice)

None of the above has a link to purchase the 9-sided die, that I could see on a quick glance.

Googled "enneahedron dice" for the above links plus others.

Enneahedron is another way of saying nonahedron.

Now, I had better stop looking, or I will spend the rest of my day researching that die.

[DavidSh]

Is there a nine sided shape with equal faces?

There is in eight-dimensional space, just like there is an equilateral triangle in two-dimensional space, and a regular tetrahedron in three-dimensional space.

[Ruck]

Of course we did not. But note that the Demon Roach counted at least nine. Not "nine". And we have been recently shown eight more sides (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html).

Those aren't alignments, they're planes. Are you talking about alignments or planes, because your initial post was a list of alignments.

[D.One]

Could also be:

North side
Northeast side
East side
Southeast side
South side
Southwest side
West side
Northwest side
Inside
Outside

[The Pilgrim]

Those aren't alignments, they're planes. Are you talking about alignments or planes, because your initial post was a list of alignments.

My initial post was a running gag that has been posted by someone almost every single time a thread with this topic has been opened since the last ten years or so.

[Crisis21]

My initial post was a running gag that has been posted by someone almost every single time a thread with this topic has been opened since the last ten years or so.

Thank you for admitting that before this went any farther.

[The Pilgrim]

You are welcome. :smallsmile:

[Ruck]

My initial post was a running gag that has been posted by someone almost every single time a thread with this topic has been opened since the last ten years or so.

Ah, I didn't know that, as it seems to have been a sincere answer put forth by other people.

I stand by my answer.

[RabidEel]

Before we start guessing on the nine+ sides, I think we need to know whether the roaches were talking about the sides at the time of 548, or whether our fourth-wall-eating bugs were talking about nine+ sides total by the end of OOTS, or even 9+ sides present at the climax. I mean, the Linear Guild was definitely a side for most of the comic, but in BRitF they got temporarily folded into the Vector Legion and then got killed off.

[Rynael]

I think the "nine sides" are similar to the "four words." The exact number's probably sort of a red herring for the more important, "there are a lot of sides, and multiple sides we hadn't seen yet," point. I'm sure the Giant counted them, but I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of the distinctions were a touch cheap or inconsistent, kind of like the fourth word being the result of a stutter.

[martianmister]

The Order of the Stick and their allies
Xykon and his minions
The Dark One/Redcloak and goblinoids
The Linear Guild and their accomplices
The Vector Legion and their men
Hel/HPoH and their servants
The gods and their worshippers
Loki, Rat, Tiamat and their agents
The Snarl and its puppets

[Ruck]

I think the "nine sides" are similar to the "four words." The exact number's probably sort of a red herring for the more important, "there are a lot of sides, and multiple sides we hadn't seen yet," point. I'm sure the Giant counted them, but I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of the distinctions were a touch cheap or inconsistent, kind of like the fourth word being the result of a stutter.

I tend to agree with this, especially in that there's not anything significant to the number nine or anything special we're going to figure out if we figure out what they are. I just started naming groups with a demonstrated interest in the Gates, and stopped when I got to nine.

[D.One]

I tend to agree with this, especially in that there's not anything significant to the number nine or anything special we're going to figure out if we figure out what they are. I just started naming groups with a demonstrated interest in the Gates, and stopped when I got to nine.

And since they talk about "at least nine", nine is just the bare minimum...

[Takver]

The Order of the Stick and their allies
Xykon and his minions
The Dark One/Redcloak and goblinoids
The Linear Guild and their accomplices
The Vector Legion and their men
Hel/HPoH and their servants
The gods and their worshippers
Loki, Rat, Tiamat and their agents
The Snarl and its puppets

This is the closest, and I'd add Hinjo and the Azurites.

[Elanasaurus]

I'd add Hinjo and the Azurites.What? Why?

[Takver]

Because they have different goals from the Order of the Stick (in the same way that Redcloak has different goals from Xykon, even though they work together.) Hinjo is primarily concerned with the safety of his people. O-Chul and Lien are helping out the Order, but if Hinjo commanded them to come back because they were needed with the refugees, probably they would do so. When the party was split up, Elan attached himself to Hinjo as his bodyguard, and it was a problem, because Hinjo was never going to bring the necessary urgency to reuniting the party. It's just not his priority.

[SlashDash]

What? Why?

I was about to say the same. You can't put "Roy" and "Hinjo" as the same faction anymore than you can put the "Roy" and "Shojo" in the same faction - they might be on the same side now, but their goals might be conflicting at some point.

Heck, the Saphire Guard first sent Miko after them, remember?

Not all good aligned people can be grouped together anymore than all bad aligned people can be grouped together.


For example, the comics clearly tells us that they are going to need to make a deal with Redcloak (or the next high priest of the dark one). Is it possible that Hinjo might object (or his replacement if something happens to him by then)? That would force the party to talk him into things as another obstacle in their path.

Heck, imagine if V hadn't killed the Draketooth clan. You'd see a rumble between Draketooth and Saphire guard despite both being on team good side.

A "side" is anyone who might have his own agenda or reason as to what to do with or about the gates (hence why Julio or the Mechane crew are not counted).

The OOTS
Saphire Guard
Goblinoids (Dark One, Redcloak)
Xykon
IFCC
Hel
Linear Guild (RIP)
Vector Legion

The last spot might be a wild card we'll see in the last book. A bit of weaker but possible options:

The scribbles - Serini might show up and possibly the soul prisoners might be free

The Snarl - or people \ gods or something trapped inside it

Euguene (He isn't exactly 100% aligned with Roy)

The Oracle (He might actually have an agenda in the end)

[deworde]

The Gods are now obviously a side, possibly two (The "Kill 'Em All" caucus vs the "4 Colour Divine Magic" team)

[Takver]

Not all good aligned people can be grouped together anymore than all bad aligned people can be grouped together.


Right...that's why I'd add Hinjo and the Azurites as another side, separate from all the other sides.

[Emanick]

Because they have different goals from the Order of the Stick (in the same way that Redcloak has different goals from Xykon, even though they work together.) Hinjo is primarily concerned with the safety of his people. O-Chul and Lien are helping out the Order, but if Hinjo commanded them to come back because they were needed with the refugees, probably they would do so. When the party was split up, Elan attached himself to Hinjo as his bodyguard, and it was a problem, because Hinjo was never going to bring the necessary urgency to reuniting the party. It's just not his priority.

I'm sorry, I just don't see it. There is zero daylight between the Order and the Azurites in terms of how to deal with the Gates. They might care about some non-Gate related issues more or less, but there is no tension and no disagreement on how to handle the Gates themselves. It doesn't make sense to treat them as different "sides," because there are no issues they are opposed on. The silly squabble about Elan being Hinjo's bodyguard, and the disagreement about how many resources they should commit to looking for Haley and Belkar, are either jokes or tactical disagreements, no more significant than Durkon's arguments with V over the same period. There's no actual opposition.

Now, if something comes up that pits Hinjo, O-Chul, Lien et. al against the Order, then yeah, that will be an argument in favor of treating them as different "sides." But until then, there's no reason to put them on separate teams.

[Takver]

Sure, that's a fair way to look at it. There's a fine line between "different sides" and "different factions in a side." I still kind of see it my way, as two different sides with a strong alliance, but I definitely see your argument.

To clarify, what I meant by Elan as Hinjo's bodyguard - the problem wasn't that Hinjo was annoyed by Elan's obnoxiousness. The problem was that Elan was wasting his time looking after Hinjo and getting embroiled in Azurite intrigue. I see the disagreement about how much time and resources to allocate to reuniting the Order as more than just tactical. It was about team goals.

[Ruck]

This is the closest, and I'd add Hinjo and the Azurites.

-It leaves out the IFCC.
-Not all the gods are on the same side.
-Not clear that the Snarl counts as a "side" given its intelligence and level of sentience is unclear.


Because they have different goals from the Order of the Stick (in the same way that Redcloak has different goals from Xykon, even though they work together.)
With regard to the Gates, they do not.

[mjasghar]

There’s no evidence of the draketooth clan being Good - CN more likely

[Crisis21]

-It leaves out the IFCC.


How? There are 'at least nine' sides, not 'exactly nine'.

[Ruck]

How? There are 'at least nine' sides, not 'exactly nine'.

A list that leaves out a side that has already declared interests in the Gates for its own scheme, while including sides that it's not clear are actually sides (Loki, Rat, and Tiamat) is categorically not "the closest."

[Takver]

Gosh, I wasn't thinking that hard about it. I just scrolled through the thread and quoted the list I liked the best.

[Ruck]

Gosh, I wasn't thinking that hard about it. I just scrolled through the thread and quoted the list I liked the best.

I am probably thinking too much about it, considering that I wrote a list and, while not comprehensive, is I believe a more accurate list.

[Crisis21]

A list that leaves out a side that has already declared interests in the Gates for its own scheme, while including sides that it's not clear are actually sides (Loki, Rat, and Tiamat) is categorically not "the closest."

Sorry, I misinterpreted your post as meaning that including an additional side on the list meant that another had to be removed.

[Takver]

I am probably thinking too much about it, considering that I wrote a list and, while not comprehensive, is I believe a more accurate list.

Your list is good too!

[Mordaedil]

The way I see it, people are on the money with regards to OOTS and the Azurites being separate factions. Fighting for the same cause, maybe, but they are split apart for a reason.

OOTS
Azurites

I think people are also on point with regards to that Xykon and Redcloak being technically two separate factions at this point, but people are neglecting that MitD has been affected by O'Chul to rebel. The roaches " at least 9 sides" might be ignorant of this however, so I think it can only work tentatively.

Xykon (for himself only)
Redcloak (includes goblins and hobgoblins)
MitD (tentative)

And we can't forget about our friends working in the shadows as well as various lesser meaningful teams, now more or less dead.

IFCC +imp (alive and well)
Sabine (alive, possibly angry with IFCC for allowing Nale to die)
Linear Guild (mostly deceased)
Vector Legion (beaten, but alive)
Thieves' Guild (resolved or dead, no remaining threads that matter)

And then we have the various gods. I think we can consider the Southern part of the Azurites and the Eastern more or less irrelevant. Northern ones I think we can split in two.

Southern Gods (part of Azurite faction)
Eastern Gods (consider part of elven faction)
Northern Gods, who voted Yes. (Loki, Thor)
Northern Gods, who voted No. (Hel, Thrym)
The Dark One (part of Redcloak faction)

We don't even really have to consider Snarl its own faction, really.

Snarl (uncaring, unassociated)

So quite honestly, we have plenty of sides to draw upon, but we can truncate quite a bit.

The Good guys (OOTS, Azurites, Elves)
The Good Gods (Southern Gods, Eastern Gods, Northern Gods who voted Yes)
The Evil Gods (Like Hel and others)
The Dark One faction (Redcloak, Goblins)
Xykon (Includes Redcloak and the MitD as a firm alliance)
IFCC (includes imp and Sabine)
Linear Guild (includes Hilgya and Sabine)
The Vector Legion
The party of Scribbles (Deus Plot, removed cause it is not their story anymore)

Did I miss anything here?

[Aquillion]

I don't think the Thieves' guild and a few other factions people have mentioned cound - they're not playing the "big game" (they're entirely unaware of the gates), and not every group is a side.

I would say... ones we know are definitely sides (with the caveat that there's still some room for overlap or conflict within a side), since they're all playing the 'big game' to one extent or another and are or were central to its resolution:

1. The Dark One, including Redcloak and the Goblins.

2. Xykon

3. OOTS

4. Thor and the gods aligned with him.

5. Hel.

6. IFCC

7. Linear Guild (even if they're defunct now, they were a side at that point.) Possibly debatable if you consider them pawns of the IFCC, but aside from Sabine their goals were different.

8. The Snarl. Possibly debatable depending on how sentient you think it is.

I find it hard to avoid categorizing those eight as sides, though, so that leaves only one more. Some of the ones that have been mentioned and my thoughts on them, in descending order of likeliness...

Sapphire Guard / Azurites: The Sapphire Guard was least defending a gate, I suppose, but they were down and out by the time that comic happened. The remaining Azurites seem so distantly involved that it seems hard to call them a major player. O'Chul still being active points towards the fact that they might actually count, but the lack of a clearly-defined independent goal really hurts them. Yes, I get what people say about not all Good people automatically being on the same side, but there's no actual reason to think their goals will diverge - you could use the same logic to say that Elan or V are a separate faction from the rest of the OOTS.

Tiamat et. all: Possibly? They could have their own agenda to an extent, but we don't know enough to call them a faction, and there's no real indicator yet that they're pushing a concrete agenda in the present day. Given the oracle, Tiamat could very easily be revealed as a faction very quickly, though - if the last faction hasn't been "officially" revealed, this would be my bet, since they've been established enough that it wouldn't come out of nowhere.

The Vector Legion: These seem like a good option at first glance, but they weren't involved in the big game at that point in time, and it doesn't seem like they'll be involved going forwards. Didn't know anything about the gates, and Tarquin dismissed the idea of doing anything with them. Laurin vaguely looked into a gate but knew nothing about it and has no serious plans outside of going for the resources on the other side. I just have trouble seeing them counting as a faction - like the Thieves' Guild, they were a one-off plot for one of the OOTS members rather than a major player driving long-term events. That was part of the point of Tarquin being dismissed at the end by Elan - he was never as big a deal as he thought he was.

Gods who want to destroy the world (as a separate faction from the individual ones named above): They were basically just pawns of Hel. While they might react to events, they're not really players. Noticeably, there isn't a single important character among them.

MitD: Seems unlikely. Wasn't really a faction at that point. I'm reluctant to call one person a faction unless they're very obviously manipulating stuff, like Hel or Xykon.

Thieves' Guild: Absolutely not. They have no connection with the main plot at all - they're a subplot for Haley and that's it. Nobody affiliated with them has ever been remotely aware of the gates. If you include them, you might as well include Julio Scoundrél, Leeky Windstaff, or the gnomes of Tinkertown.

Sabine (as an independent faction): No. This hadn't even happened yet. She'd be the last remnant of the Linear Guild if we count her as no longer being onboard with the IFCC, but given that her current focus is Tarquin I'd count her as "fallen out of the main plot" - again, counting her as an individual at this point is like talking about a faction of Leeky Windstaff.


We're now in book 6. The commentary to book 4 said that we would be introduced to one of the "sides" in the next book. That makes perfect sense if the "sides" are factions (Tarquin's team would be the new faction introduced) but makes no sense with the "alignments" interpretation.I would read the obvious applicability of that to Tarquin's team as misdirection (much like the "new member of the OOTS" in the Azure City chapter was a misdirection wrt. Miko and was actually about Mr. Scruffy.) To me it seems clear that the side introduced in Book 5 was Hel, via the HPOH. Yes, she'd been mentioned, but Book 5 was what made her relevant to the main plot.

[monomer]

I don't think the Thieves' guild and a few other factions people have mentioned cound - they're not playing the "big game" (they're entirely unaware of the gates), and not every group is a side.

I would say... ones we know are definitely sides (with the caveat that there's still some room for overlap or conflict within a side), since they're all playing the 'big game' to one extent or another and are or were central to its resolution:

1. The Dark One, including Redcloak and the Goblins.
2. Xykon
3. OOTS
4. Thor and the gods aligned with him.
5. Hel.
6. IFCC
7. Linear Guild (even if they're defunct now, they were a side at that point.) Possibly debatable if you consider them pawns of the IFCC, but aside from Sabine their goals were different.
8. The Snarl. Possibly debatable depending on how sentient you think it is.


I would include the The Draketooth Clan, which was still around when the roaches mentioned there were at least 9 sides.

A case could kinda be made for The Order of the Scribble since, as I understand it, Lirian and Dorukan aren't technically dead yet.
And as multilis mentioned, there's also the possibility that The Holey Brotherhood (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)is still trying to protect the right for holes to exist.

[KorvinStarmast]

A more interesting question (for me) when seeing this threads name;
Is there a nine sided shape with equal faces?
A quick Google search says there are no regular nonahedrons.
I have thus answered my own question. I hope we all enjoyed learning together. How to roll a nine sided die. (1d9)

1. Take a green and a red d6
2. Assign values of 1 to 1-2, 2 to 3-4, and 3 to 5-6 on each die.
3. Red assigns group(1-3, 4-6, 7-9) green assigns value (1, 2, or 3)
4. Roll the dice.
Example 1: red 3 green 4 = 5
Example 2: Red 4 green 5 = 6.

[Emanick]

How to roll a nine sided die. (1d9)

1. Take a green and a red d6
2. Assign values of 1 to 1-2, 2 to 3-4, and 3 to 5-6 on each die.
3. Red assigns group(1-3, 4-6, 7-9) green assigns value (1, 2, or 3)
4. Roll the dice.
Example 1: red 3 green 4 = 5
Example 2: Red 4 green 5 = 6.

It seems simpler to just roll a d10 and reroll when a 0 comes up.

[unbeliever536]

In order to assign a faction to one or another "side" in the conflict, we need to consider both the overall goals of the faction and what insturmental goals are implied by them.

First, we have the successors to the Order of the Scribble: the Order of the Stick, the Saphire Guard, and anyone else falling into that category. They seek to maintain the status quo with respect to the Snarl, by preserving the integrity of the existing gates and restoring those that have been destroyed. The end if book 2 and the start of book 3 were focused on the shift in the Order's goals from stopping Xykon as an end in itself to stopping Xykon as a necessary part of this larger goal. This side may have supporters among the gods, such as Sigrun Sif and Freya, but these gods don't themselves constitute a side.

The second side, obviously, is Xykon himself, who wants to control (but not destroy) the gates so that he can use their power to rule the world.

Next, the Dark One and his servants. They seek to increase TDO's power by either exploiting the threat of the Snarl or giving the Dark One a role in the creation of the next world. They would prefer to control the gates, but are satisfied with destroying them.

Now the Linear Guild and the Vector Legion. These were opportunistic exploiters who sought to control the gates but had no real plan for what they would do with them. By the end of book 5, they had ceased to exist as a coherent side. Nale died, and Tarquin aligned himself with the Order before attempting a coup. With the dissolution of the Linear Guild, Sabine moved fully into the IFCC's camp. Laurin, the last remaining person still attempting this sort of opportunistic exploitation, failed in her attempt to make use of the rift and was thereby knocked out of the conflict.

The pantheonic sides come next; I see three or four. First, there are those like Tyr and Sunna who favor destroying the world preemptively in fear of the Snarl, or to keep the secret from getting out. Next, there are those like Hel and Thrym who wish to destroy the world in order to alter the balance of power within the existing pantheon structure. Then we have those like Njord and Fenrir who are simply inclined to favor destroying the world. These arguably fall into the first group, but can also be counted independently. Finally, we have Thor, Loki, probably Odin, and presumably some other gods who seek to recruit the Dark One in order to repair the rifts.

That leaves the IFCC, who clearly are not aligned with either the Order or Xykon but still have some sort of plan. They primarily act to sow chaos among the other factions, but their reasons are unclear. They may fit into Hel's faction, seeking to empower the Evil gods generally, or they may wish to cause Good gods to be destroyed by the Snarl, or they may just want to prevent the resolution of the problem. They do have some sort of plan to gain power, or at least relative power, but how is unclear.

Finally we have the Snarl itself. The jury is out on whether the Snarl is actually sentient, but for our purposes it counts as a "side" since a number of factions are primarily focused on fighting it rather than anyone else involved, and those with the most knowledge about it generally view the Snarl as a malevolent entity rather than a natural disaster.*

That gives nine or ten sides in existence at the time of the roach comment, including one (Hel's) introduced in book 5. One side has since been eliminated, and we appear to be heading towards a consolidation of the Scribble successors and Thor's faction by the end of this book.

* At one point I advanced a theory that the Snarl was actually a weapon or hazard of some kind, rather than a being in its own right. I still think that theory is interesting, and don't see it as completely ruled out, but given the ongoing revelations about the nature of the problem I think it's pretty unlikely that the Snarl is anything of that sort.

[Sniffnoy]

The Order of the Stick / its allies
Redcloak / The Dark One
Xykon
Hel
Gods who want to save the world
Gods who want to destroy the world
The IFCC
The Vector Legion
The Linear Guild (RIP)

I'm not sure it makes sense to separate out "Hel" from "gods who want to destroy the world" here.

OTOH, other divisions within the gods may make sense. We could probably separate out "gods who want to save the world" into those who are and aren't willing to negotiate with The Dark One.

[unbeliever536]

I'm not sure it makes sense to separate out "Hel" from "gods who want to destroy the world" here.


She can pretty clearly be separated from some of them, since she expects that after he hears her vote Tyr's preferred result would change. I'd separate her from most of the other "yes" votes, especially Tyr, Heimdall, Sunna, Skadi, and maybe Vafthrudnir and/or Sigrun, all of whom explicitly base their votes on Snarl-related concerns, rather than a genuine desire to destroy the world. Njord, Hodor, Fenrir, and Surtur all vote "yes" but don't appear to have much of an opinion on the consequences of the world being destroyed, so arguably they're also distinct.

[KorvinStarmast]

It seems simpler to just roll a d10 and reroll when a 0 comes up.
Nope. Pick up 2d6, we always had lots of them, of many different colors, and roll them. Just know how the above works. No rerolls are ever needed. Myy system is simpler, because just by looking at the dice results with your eyes, you know the answer.

The problem with typing it out is to explain in text what it took less than 5 seconds to learn when we were messing about with this in the late 70's.

[Ruck]

I'm not sure it makes sense to separate out "Hel" from "gods who want to destroy the world" here.
She's got a pretty specific agenda that differs from theirs, one which, once discovered, she seems to credibly believe would change at least one god's vote from a "yes" to a "no."

[rbetieh]

Im starting to suspect that Zeus' pantheon is a side in this....I could elaborate I suppose, but I will wait for a few more clues

Also, I think it was "at least" 9 sides...

[Potatopeelerkin]

Im starting to suspect that Zeus' pantheon is a side in this....I could elaborate I suppose, but I will wait for a few more clues

Also, I think it was "at least" 9 sides...

Aren't they all dead? In the "no longer exists, even in the afterlife" form of a Snarl kill?

[rbetieh]

Aren't they all dead? In the "no longer exists, even in the afterlife" form of a Snarl kill?
As far as the gods know... or at least as far as the gods are willing to tell mortals... do the gods know there is another world inside the Snarl prison?

[martianmister]

I think there has to be some kind of clash of interest between them for them to be counted as different sides. OotS, SG and Thor want the same thing.

[unbeliever536]

I think there has to be some kind of clash of interest between them for them to be counted as different sides. OotS, SG and Thor want the same thing.

The sides are dynamic. Some cease to exist or merge with other sides as they gain information (changing their goals and thus who they're willing to work with) or lose members.

At the time of the demon roach statement, OotS and SG were working towards the same set of goals (preserve the world by by defending and/or repairing the gates, including by halting the Dark One's plan). Thor had and has a slightly different goal (get the Dark One to help repair the world in a permanent fashion), but OotS and company didn't have the information they needed to even consider that idea, much less work with Thor to achieve it. Presumably Thor and the Order will be on the same side by the end of this book, with the Guard soon to follow, but at least up until Thor explained to Durkon what it is he wants Durkon to do, they could not properly be called the same side.

Note also that Roy articulates no exceptions to his statement (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1023.html) that the gods "do not have [mortals', perhaps OotS's] best interests at heart".

[Sir_Norbert]

How to roll a nine sided die. (1d9)

1. Take a green and a red d6
2. Assign values of 1 to 1-2, 2 to 3-4, and 3 to 5-6 on each die.
3. Red assigns group(1-3, 4-6, 7-9) green assigns value (1, 2, or 3)
4. Roll the dice.
Example 1: red 3 green 4 = 5
Example 2: Red 4 green 5 = 6.

I guess you could, as you say, memorise this well enough that you can read the results as easily as you read the results of a regular 2d6 roll. I think that until you get to that point, it would be liable to confusion and having to take time to mentally look up what the results mean.

A method I would find easier:

- Roll a green and a red d6
- Calculate (6 x green) + red
- Add the digits of the answer.

[D.One]

I guess you could, as you say, memorise this well enough that you can read the results as easily as you read the results of a regular 2d6 roll. I think that until you get to that point, it would be liable to confusion and having to take time to mentally look up what the results mean.

A method I would find easier:

- Roll a green and a red d6
- Calculate (6 x green) + red
- Add the digits of the answer.

Why don't just roll a d10 and consider only the 1 to 9 results as valid?

[Tarthalion]

Why don't just roll a d10 and consider only the 1 to 9 results as valid?
Because that doesn't require a rigorous mathematical proof that all values from one to nine are equally probable, dumbo!

[D.One]

Because that doesn't require a rigorous mathematical proof that all values from one to nine are equally probable, dumbo!

Uh... ok, My mistake to try to keep it simple... :smallbiggrin: