Vampire Help

[Gerdra]

I have been Dming a game for roughly a year now and my party has recently come to find out that the assassin that was hired to kill a fellow party member (long story) was part of a guild called the Undying. Basically, the assassins would take the jobs and kill their targets, then use magic to preserve the corpse in an endless time-loop so that their deaths could be revisited months after. Originally this was so that the contractor could view the kill themselves and see that the target was dead. But eventually a Vampire became the leader of the assassins and has been using them as a way to feed in the main capital without attracting suspicion.

So one of the barbarians was killed by these assassins and later raised as a new Vampire and was given the test of battling their old friends to test their strength. It was this amazing moment when the party realized that they were being chased by one of their own and not some random new villain.

However, at the end of the night, the original owner of the barbarian asked if she would ever be able to play as her again. We went over the Vampire block in the Monster Manual and she brought up a point. Since it states that "At any given time a Vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed Vampires and Vampire Spawn", she is arguing that if her character levels up beyond the ability of the natural Vampire to control, then she should become free-willed and be allowed to take over again. Has anyone come across a similar situation?

[frogglesmash]

I wouldn't think so. The way the ability reads you only check HD totals when making a new vampire, and if the new vampire exceeds your HD limit, the new vamp is free willed.

[Kayblis]

The concept of "leveling up" is extraneous to any HD-based control pool. They are meant to be used with monsters and creations which don't actually gain XP and level up in the usual manner. It's like the Undead control pool for necromancers, you don't even have rules for "adding" HD to controlled undead.

This means, there are no rules for it explicitly laid out. You could treat it in a couple ways, say:
Situation - When a controlled being gets one HD too many for you to control, what should happen?
1 - The controlled being is still under control, nothing changes.
2 - The master can choose to release controlled beings to keep it under his cap. It's his choice who to release.
3 - The last being to become controlled is released, which isn't necessarily the Barbarian here. No choice.
4 - The being which gained the HD is released. No choice.

All of them are "maybe" solutions. The 1st one is kinda broken from a balancing perspective, and there are some rules with undead caps that support the argument for either 2 or 3. The 4th one is the one you want, and it's the one with the least support rules-wise. You could probably get a roleplay reason for the Vampire to release you in the 2nd solution though, with roleplay implications like being subservient to him even though there's no mind control active, just like a common affiliation. That's best from my perspective because it doesn't necessarily implies you level up, so it doesn't break any rules.

[Darrin]

It sounds like you're looking for a "Rules Solution" to a "Story Problem". While there may be a rules solution for what you are looking for, it is not particularly contingent on the problem.

A former PC turned NPC antagonist, who may be struggling to break free from the BBEG controlling her? That's pretty darned epic already.

If your PCs are particularly crafty with the meta-rules, they could hire a bard to Inspire Greatness on her to temporarily increase her HD, perhaps long enough for the party to convince her to pull a Heel-Face Turn (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelFaceTurn).

However, I don't think you really need the rules here. I think you should tell the Barb to go for it, and just see where the story goes.

[Remuko]

It sounds like you're looking for a "Rules Solution" to a "Story Problem". While there may be a rules solution for what you are looking for, it is not particularly contingent on the problem.

A former PC turned NPC antagonist, who may be struggling to break free from the BBEG controlling her? That's pretty darned epic already.

If your PCs are particularly crafty with the meta-rules, they could hire a bard to Inspire Greatness on her to temporarily increase her HD, perhaps long enough for the party to convince her to pull a Heel-Face Turn (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelFaceTurn).

However, I don't think you really need the rules here. I think you should tell the Barb to go for it, and just see where the story goes.

i dont know if thats possible. arent undead such as vampires immune to effects like that? or is that only mindless undead?

[Darrin]

i dont know if thats possible. arent undead such as vampires immune to effects like that? or is that only mindless undead?

Normally, yes. But there's a feat in Libris Mortis called Requiem that allows Bardic Music to affect undead.

[Vaern]

i dont know if thats possible. arent undead such as vampires immune to effects like that? or is that only mindless undead?
Under the ruling for foregoing saving throws, it says that even a character with special resistances to magic can suppress that quality to willingly accept an effect, citing an elf's racial immunity to magic sleep effects as an example.
Mindless undead lack the consciousness to make this decision, but an intelligent undead could accept such an effect. Depending on how powerful you declare the vampire's control over the barbarian to be, though, it may be the vampire's decision to allow its thrall to accept an effect.

[Gerdra]

It sounds like you're looking for a "Rules Solution" to a "Story Problem".

Kinda. My plan is to have the party face off against her barbarian before taking on the Master Vampire in order to cleanse the town. If they kill her so be it, and if she kills them or they retreat so be it. But she brought up an impressive argument as to why she should be able to break free from their control if they continue leveling up.

I like the idea of trying to turn her to their side, especially since our rogue just multiclassed as a bard and I had planned to allow them to level up a few more times before reaching this point.

[Gerdra]

This means, there are no rules for it explicitly laid out. You could treat it in a couple ways, say:
Situation - When a controlled being gets one HD too many for you to control, what should happen?
1 - The controlled being is still under control, nothing changes.
2 - The master can choose to release controlled beings to keep it under his cap. It's his choice who to release.
3 - The last being to become controlled is released, which isn't necessarily the Barbarian here. No choice.
4 - The being which gained the HD is released. No choice.

All of them are "maybe" solutions. The 1st one is kinda broken from a balancing perspective, and there are some rules with undead caps that support the argument for either 2 or 3. The 4th one is the one you want, and it's the one with the least support rules-wise. You could probably get a roleplay reason for the Vampire to release you in the 2nd solution though, with roleplay implications like being subservient to him even though there's no mind control active, just like a common affiliation.

I was actually arguing for point 1, seeing as it only states about when the Vampire makes a new spawn. The 2nd and 3rd are interesting because like I said the Vampire feeds pretty regularly, so they could use that to try and force him relinquish some of his control on the others.