Seeking experienced eyes on my sorcadin (sorry...)

[samcifer]

So here's what I've gone with:

Race: Fallen Assimar

Total Level: 9 (close to lv. 10)

Classes in order: Divine Soul Sorc 4 / Devotion Pal 5 (will go sorc 5 at lv. 10, then pal 6, then sorc from then on)

Stats: STR: 18 (17 + 1), DEX: 12, CON: 16, INT: 11, WIS: 12, CHA: 20 (18+2)

Speed: 30'

HP: 75

Background: Criminal (prof in Deception and Stealth)

Chosen skills: Intimidation and Persuasion

Starting Equipment: Half-Plate armor. Greatsword and Glaive (for when I need some reach), +3 Amulet of protection (taken from my previous Druid character who bought it with DM's okay).

ASIs: Sorc 4: GWM, Pal 4: (can't decide between a few options listed below)

Cantrips (5): Sacred Flame, Thaumaturgy, Booming Blade, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion

Spell slots: L1 - 4, L2 - 3, L3 - 3, L4 - 1

Metamagics: Quicken and Twinned

Fighting Style: Defense (+1 AC)

Spells: Cure Wounds (from Divine Soul feature), Shield, Hold Person, Mirror Image, Spiritual Weapon (might change), and Shatter

- At sorc 5, I'm planning on taking Fireball (replacing Shatter and taken for mobs and overwhelming odds) and Spirit Guardians for my new spell.

Prayers (pally spells): Bless, Command, Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Wrathful Smite, Aid, Find Steed -
- From Oath: Protection From Evil and Good, Sanctuary, Lesser Restoration, Zone of Truth

Character concept: Lusts for battle and controlling those who would help to spread the worship of Baphomet, replacing all other relgions alongside the other paladin in the group. Skilled in both melee and arcane combat, he will do whatever it takes to make the world Baphomet's to rule . This is an evil campaign, btw, and my alignment is Chaotic Evil.



So basically I find myself bouncing around on which ASI to take for my second one.

I like the idea of getting Alert for an initiative bonus of +6 as I hate going last.

Another idea is to take Toughness for more HP as 75 for a level 9 melee character seems as if it's low to me, but Aid can compensate for that.

Polearm Master would let me have a third attack per turn without wasting sorcery points to quicken BB. +2 Dex would up my AC by another point to 21 and make my initiative +2...

And just to drive me even crazier, there's Magic Initiate: Warlock for Eldritch Blast and Prestidigitation (there was a statue with... Let's call them stains...? Form a worshipper that I could've cleaned off during our last session so make the statue clean enough to take) and maybe Arms of Hadar or Charm Person (since I have divine Favor, no real need for Hex, right?)

Other members of the party are: Fallen Assimar Oathbreaker Pally, Human batlemaster/Inquisitive Rogue, Half-Orc Totem Barb / Champion fighter (for crit-fishing with GWM), Aakroia (bird people) Open Hand Monk. - My role within the group will be melee/arcane striker with some social utility.

So any spells that would be better to take?

More importantly, which ASI would be best? (seriously, we play this Friday and I can't decide in which second ASI to go for. I've never played this type of character before and am unsure on how often I expect to be hit. The DM plays fair and when he has his choice of targets for an npc, he rolls a d4 to help him decide which pc to attack.)

[samcifer]

Bumped in hopes of getting an answer to this...

[Galithar]

Eldritch Blast isn't worth a feat in my opinion. It's a great cantrip, but not worth burning a feat because most of it's power comes from Invocations.

Remember if you want to BB at reach you need to have Spellsniper or your DM handwaving it's range away. BB has a range of 5 feet so even if you can melee attack at 10 feet without spell sniper doubling the range you can't cast BB.

Didn't read everything, just skimmed and thought I'd point out the things that jumped out at me.

[samcifer]

Eldritch Blast isn't worth a feat in my opinion. It's a great cantrip, but not worth burning a feat because most of it's power comes from Invocations.

Remember if you want to BB at reach you need to have Spellsniper or your DM handwaving it's range away. BB has a range of 5 feet so even if you can melee attack at 10 feet without spell sniper doubling the range you can't cast BB.

Didn't read everything, just skimmed and thought I'd point out the things that jumped out at me.

I can just swap that out for something like Green Flame Blade or a different cantrip. My main issue is not being able to figure out which feat or ASI would be best to go with from here and as I need this build finalized by tomorrow night, I'm stressing out a bit over not being able to decide.

[Galithar]

GFB also has a range of 5 feet :P

I'll look more in depth when I have a chance and give you a full response later tonight, hopefully I'll be able to help.

[samcifer]

GFB also has a range of 5 feet :P

I'll look more in depth when I have a chance and give you a full response later tonight, hopefully I'll be able to help.

Cool and thanks for replying. I could just go with a social cantrip like Prestidigitation instead or maybe Toll the Dead for an alternate save to target.

My goal for the character is to be able to have high DPR as well as versatility in melee as well as a few blaster spells later on for ranged attacking as well as dealing with mobs. There's also a bit of non-combat utility thrown in to make him functional outside of combat. As this is my first ever melee character, I'm not sure if more HP or AC is more important than more cantrips or more attacks via Polearm Mastery. I'm honestly leaning towards PM because it would guarantee that I can attack three times each turn and with Oath of Devotion's Sacred Weapon feature fully countering the -5 accuracy cost of GWM's power attack, I can do a lot more damage each turn this way. Still, I worry that I might be ignoring something more important by going this route.

To summarize the build, I have 20 AC, +8 to attack (melee) or +9 to attack (spellcasting thru CHA), 75 hp, and proficiency in CON and CHA saves by starting off as a sorc. Stats, once again, are:

18 STR, 12 DEX, 16 CON, 11 INT, 12 WIS, 20 CHA.

[Galithar]

I definitely recommend Warcaster.

You'll almost never lose concentration, proficiency in CON saves + advantage makes that easy. Don't know how many concentration spells you use but Shield of Faith or spirit Guardians are amazing if you have access to them. I don't know Paladin spell lists :P

Then you also can cast BB or another spell as your attacks of opportunity when someone moves. Not the best, but when you pick up your third feat and grab PAM now you can booming blade them as they approach you (note this requires a super lenient DM or yet ANOTHER feat so I wouldn't build specifically for it)

Alternately grabbing PAM first is a strong play. The extra attack on bonus action will really help you save your sorcerery points in the small fights so that you still have them all for the big fights, but still feel like you were being efficient with using all your actions.

Edit: Forgot you mentioned grabbing Spirit Guardians. I definitely recommend Warcaster to prevent it from ever dropping and allowing those reaction casts. Depending on the DM a PAM BB reaction at 10 feet will immediately trigger the movement damage when they finish stepping towards you after the hit.


Initiative isn't a big deal. If there a real reason you need to be the first to act in turn one? If there isn't then having high initiative doesn't gain you anything. It's great to go first, but unless you have abilities that can trigger off if going first, it's not really important in my book.

Another good bonus action using spell is Spritual Weapon. Does decent damage and can be controlled with your BA. Obviously this would be a stopgap for you until you picked up PAM with your next ASI, at which point your drop it for something better.

[samcifer]

I definitely recommend Warcaster.

You'll almost never lose concentration, proficiency in CON saves + advantage makes that easy. Don't know how many concentration spells you use but Shield of Faith or spirit Guardians are amazing if you have access to them. I don't know Paladin spell lists :P

Then you also can cast BB or another spell as your attacks of opportunity when someone moves. Not the best, but when you pick up your third feat and grab PAM now you can booming blade them as they approach you (note this requires a super lenient DM or yet ANOTHER feat so I wouldn't build specifically for it)

Alternately grabbing PAM first is a strong play. The extra attack on bonus action will really help you save your sorcerery points in the small fights so that you still have them all for the big fights, but still feel like you were being efficient with using all your actions.

Edit: Forgot you mentioned grabbing Spirit Guardians. I definitely recommend Warcaster to prevent it from ever dropping and allowing those reaction casts. Depending on the DM a PAM BB reaction at 10 feet will immediately trigger the movement damage when they finish stepping towards you after the hit.


Initiative isn't a big deal. If there a real reason you need to be the first to act in turn one? If there isn't then having high initiative doesn't gain you anything. It's great to go first, but unless you have abilities that can trigger off if going first, it's not really important in my book.

Another good bonus action using spell is Spiritual Weapon. Does decent damage and can be controlled with your BA. Obviously this would be a stopgap for you until you picked up PAM with your next ASI, at which point your drop it for something better.

Okay, so concentration is really that important and comes up often enough to worry about? I have the shield spell that would grant me an AC of 25 for a round but that might still not be enough?

[Galithar]

Concentration comes up every time you take damage, or if environmental effects such as massive waves hitting a ship you are on are great enough your DM determines you make one. Failing that save ends your spell. Very bad thing.

I definitely think it's worth having Warcaster for that alone, but the addition of casting with attacks of opportunity is too good to pass up in my opinion.

[samcifer]

Concentration comes up every time you take damage, or if environmental effects such as massive waves hitting a ship you are on are great enough your DM determines you make one. Failing that save ends your spell. Very bad thing.

I definitely think it's worth having Warcaster for that alone, but the addition of casting with attacks of opportunity is too good to pass up in my opinion.

Well... I already have Hold Person, Bless, Divine Favor, Wrathful Smite, Branding Smite (I re-worked my spell list a bit),and Protection from Evil and Good. I'd say Hold Person and Wrathful Smite are worth working to maintain concentration on... Okay then. I guess I'll hold off on PM until level 14 though, assuming we go that high. :(

I also decided to go with Thaumaturgy over Booming Blade or GRB foro thematic reasons. (use with minor illusion to make an image of Baphomet with a booming voice to scare people.)

Thanks for the advice. :)

[samcifer]

One pair of questions on war caster tho... When you cast a spell for an OA, can it be a spell of any level or just a cantrip? For example, could I cast hold person as an oa? If so and I cast it as a lv 3 or 4 spell, could it still hit other enemies even if they didn't trigger an is but are within range?

[Galithar]

You can cast any spell, but it is restricted to only targeting the one that provoked. That means you can cast hold person, but if you do so with a higher level spell slot (presumably because you are out of level two slots) you still would be forced to only targeting that one creature.

[samcifer]

So I had my first session with my new character and since it's an evil campaign and he knew too much to let live, the other players killed my druid character, then the DM split his total xp 5 ways, putting everyone (including my yet-to-be-introduced new character at lv. 10, so I began him as a sorc 5 and pal 5, swapping out Shatter for Fireball and also taking Spirit Guardians via divine soul sorc.

Well, there was only one battle so far against 8 ogres involving my new guy. I was was low on initiative, so my first turn had me activate Sacred Weapon while in the hallway outside a room where they were, then quickened a Fireball through the doorway to soften them all up for everyone, placing it so no allies got hurt in the process. All players did well in the fight (even with out barbarian player unable to attend after a rough day that left him too tired to play and our rogue/fighter got a crit both attacks during his first turn with his bow) and I only got a second turn, but I hit on both attacks with my glaive from 10' with GWM and threw a lv. 2 smite on one of the attacks for extra damage. Didn't kill anyone myself, but felt I contributed fairly well to the group's damage like I prefer to.

Warcaster didn't come up in so brief a battle, so we'll see in future fights if it comes up. I'd hoped for a second fight with him, but we did so much rp stuff that it was fine without, including robbing the king's treasury and all but crippling the economy as we slowly take over the kingdom in the name of Bathomet. I've basically become the preacher for Baphomet and set up a temple to preach to the disgruntled masses, so I figure a +5 CHA mod and prof. in Deception, Intimidation and Persuasion should serve me well in my character's role in the campaign along with my contacts with the criminal underground (via Criminal background). :)

[Galithar]

Warcaster will really kick off when you get PAM so you get your attack of opportunity as they approach. Before then it's to prevent loss of concentration and the off chance you get to make an attack of opportunity, which a DM playing by the book isn't going to give you many unless you're only fighting mindless creatures that don't understand the risk of moving away from you.

[Hootman]

I don't know that Warcaster is worth it on this kind of character. I mean, you already have a +7 to Con Saves (+10 if that Amulet you mentioned applies). You're already very unlikely to drop a spell, and once you get to Paladin 6 and pick up another +5 to all of your saves...it'll seem a total waste. Remember, the DC is only 10 unless you get hit for more than 21 damage at a time. With a +15 save at level 11, enemies have to hit you for over 33 damage to even force you to roll.

If you want to be DPS, then PAM probably would be a better choice. Your AC will be unimpressive, but you're a Striker, not a Tank, so who cares? Diced up foes can't hurt you.

[samcifer]

I don't know that Warcaster is worth it on this kind of character. I mean, you already have a +7 to Con Saves (+10 if that Amulet you mentioned applies). You're already very unlikely to drop a spell, and once you get to Paladin 6 and pick up another +5 to all of your saves...it'll seem a total waste. Remember, the DC is only 10 unless you get hit for more than 21 damage at a time. With a +15 save at level 11, enemies have to hit you for over 33 damage to even force you to roll.

If you want to be DPS, then PAM probably would be a better choice. Your AC will be unimpressive, but you're a Striker, not a Tank, so who cares? Diced up foes can't hurt you.

AC is 20 thanks to the amulet (and no, it does not add to my CON saves) - but with the Shield spell it becomes 25 for a round (already did this once and it helped me avoid taking any damage at all that battle), 75 HP, con save +7 (+12 next level when I get to pal 6 with my +5 CHA mod). Honestly I feel more drawn more to Polearm Master for a guaranteed third attack.

[TheMoxiousOne]

I don't know that Warcaster is worth it on this kind of character. I mean, you already have a +7 to Con Saves (+10 if that Amulet you mentioned applies).

+10 with advantage seems a bit overkill, but the key in getting it so early is setting up/utilizing Opportunity Attacks being able to be spells to tank better. I use this on my pure Conquest pally to cast Hold Person or Fear, so their movement ends (Move speed gets reduced to 0 while frightened of me), which helps protect the character it's leaving you to go hit. Gets better with Pole Arm Master, as aforementioned.

[samcifer]

+10 with advantage seems a bit overkill, but the key in getting it so early is setting up/utilizing Opportunity Attacks being able to be spells to tank better. I use this on my pure Conquest pally to cast Hold Person or Fear, so their movement ends (Move speed gets reduced to 0 while frightened of me), which helps protect the character it's leaving you to go hit. Gets better with Pole Arm Master, as aforementioned.

But it'd be +7,at lv. 10 with 16 Con, not +10. Not certain where you're getting the extra +3 from as the amulet only adds +3 to AC and not to Con as well.

As for tanking, that's not really my character's function. He's a striker focusing on DPS above all else, but wants high enough defenses to maintain survivability.