Speculation of the IFCC's Goal (Unmarked SoD Spoilers)

[Kilo24]

The IFCC is a proof of concept that evil forces can work together (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html) so that the Dark One can be convinced to join them. If the Dark One joins Tiamat, Rat and Loki, they have the four quiddity colors they need to combat the Snarl and then can let the rest of the gods be killed off by the Snarl.

"In fact, it was Loki who first realized what the existence of a purple god could mean. He did his best to keep up a good relationship with the Dark One, with the intent of someday letting him in on the secret of the Snarl." - OOTS #1143 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html)

"Some of the gods wanted to destroy this newly-formed deity on the spot, rather than share power with him, but several of the older evil gods broke ranks to defend him." - Start of Darkness

I suggest those three gods because they're the ones who have been shown to be on speaking terms at some point with The Dark One, and indeed have their "private chat group" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html) acknowledged. Start of Darkness (pg 42) labels Tiamat and Rat "his few allies among the elder gods". Loki in OOTS #1143 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html) and Start of Darkness (pg 40) is shown defending the Dark One, and also took the forefront in negotiating with the Dark One. Loki also voted to keep the world intact in the Godsmoot, which would give him more time to get the Dark One onboard and may be part of the scheme.

"I managed to convince [Tiamat] that [V's Familicide] was an unfortunate necessity of a secret scheme to bring down the gods of Good." - OOTS #668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)

"Tiamat is the only one who's ever met [the Dark One] in person, and they think she's lying to further some scheme." - OOTS #1143 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html)

Now, Tiamat in particular has already been explicitly connected with the IFCC, which quite likely involves the same scheme that most of the Western gods suspect her of (OOTS #1143 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html)). They get a call from her right after the Familicide event ( OOTS #667 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html)) and are able to defend themselves by referencing "a secret scheme to bring down the gods of Good." Their desire as stated to Qarr is for "Destructive unnecessary conflict" ( OOTS #668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)) and their incapacitation of V as she tried to prevent Girard's Gate from being destroyed brings them closer to the Snarl getting loose.

"[Sabine] has been keeping me abreast of some new opportunities in the world of mortals." - OOTS #637 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html)

To the IFCC, the "opportunity" that V represents is a high-level arcane caster that they can manipulate while she does the ritual to seal up the Snarl. By incapacitating V right when she needs to do her part, the ritual would be botched. The result may very well be that the Snarl is freed in a way that is less controlled than a voluntary destruction of the world, but the four-quiddity coalition alone are able to defend themselves and be left as the reigning gods. This would achieve the slaughter of good dragons that they promised to Tiamat, as well as the slaughter of the Upper Planes that they told V was the eventual end goal of the IFCC.

There are some potential holes in this theory. Loki and Rat are tied to this scheme by virtue of their quiddity colors and support of the Dark One, but not as I'm aware by anything more substantiated. The slaughter of the Upper Planes that the IFCC promises implies that it will be done by fiends, not by the Snarl or goblinoids. We also don't know how Rat and Tiamat voted in the Godsmoot. Any further evidence one way or the other on these matters would be appreciated.

[Emanick]

This is an amazingly plausible theory, as far as I can tell. It's the only one I've read about the IFCC that actually makes sense. Kudos!

[Bacon Elemental]

I thought V was incapable of actually doing the Gate ritual because it uses sections of magic from their barred schools (not that the Oots know what the contents of the ritual are)? I definitely recall someone bringing that up in a recent discussion thread

[Kilo24]

I thought V was incapable of actually doing the Gate ritual because it uses sections of magic from their barred schools (not that the Oots know what the contents of the ritual are)? I definitely recall someone bringing that up in a recent discussion thread

EDIT: I had a post arguing that having Conjuration banned from normal spellcasting didn't necessarily mean that it applied to ritual spellcasting. But, after thinking through this I realized that we are conflating two different rituals: the one by Redcloak to move the Snarl, and the one that the Order of the Scribble used to make the gates. The former uses Conjuration, the latter is probably Abjuration. Therefore, I don't think the banned school is pertinent.

[denthor]

Kilo24.

You have answered for me on how the IFCC could be valuable.

Take a little lower down on this page to find a thread with.

"It came to me... dun dun dun."

To see what I am talking about.

As some point out in that thread. You may find additional hole but I doubt it.

[Fyraltari]

Two things:

1) Lee convinced Tiamat that Familicide was "part of a secret scheme..." not "the" or even the ambiguous "our", "a" that implies that Tiamat does not know the scheme. And indeed if shewas in cahoot with them on plan to destroy the world the "destroy five good dragons..." bit would not have been new information. Furthermore, her phoning the IFFC is not really indication of her working with them. She knows they exist and they have some relations (the ennemy of my ennemy and all that). Hell, it might be that she originally called one of Lee's superiors who just passed the bucket.

2) Hilgya was sent by Loki to join the Linear Guild and eventually betray them and run off with Dorukan's talisman of outadated monster control. Sabine was sent with the IFFC to join the Linear Guild and maniplate them to serve as her masters' pawns. Looks like these two are working at cross-purposes.

[Kilo24]

Kilo24.
...Take a little lower down on this page to find a thread with.

"It came to me... dun dun dun."...

In that thread, you postulate that the IFCC could be the agents to converse with the Dark One. The thing is, they definitely are not the emissaries that Thor is hoping for in the latest strip. They are explicitly scheming against the gods of good, and are therefore not serving the cause of all the gods as a whole.

The Order of the Stick could be the emissaries, but if the IFCC are trying to get the Dark One on their side they will be competing against Thor's interests.

[Kilo24]

Two things:

1) Lee convinced Tiamat that Familicide was "part of a secret scheme..." not "the" or even the ambiguous "our", "a" that implies that Tiamat does not know the scheme. And indeed if shewas in cahoot with them on plan to destroy the world the "destroy five good dragons..." bit would not have been new information. Furthermore, her phoning the IFFC is not really indication of her working with them. She knows they exist and they have some relations (the ennemy of my ennemy and all that). Hell, it might be that she originally called one of Lee's superiors who just passed the bucket.

1) Tiamat may already know about the scheme, but there may be multiple schemes to bring down the gods of good that Tiamat is aware of. That's a pretty common thing among evil gods, after all. That would mean that the nonspecific wording is called for.

Additionally, the relationship between Tiamat and the IFCC may be something that they're reluctant to inform Qarr (a new employee) about just yet. Using "the" or "our" indicates a stronger connection between Tiamat and the IFCC than they may be comfortable revealing. The fact that they label the scheme "secret" indicates that they're already leery of revealing too much information about it.

From a more fourth-wall sense, the wording helps keep the connection between Tiamat and the IFCC ambiguous. We already have the Giant justifying Malack's description of curing vampirism "destroying the person he is now" being ambiguous to keep Durkon's suppression a surprise; that wording may very well be something similar.

As to "destroy five good dragons", that was part of a promise Tiamat extracted from the IFCC. It may have not been new information that they were planning to kill the good dragons, but making it an explicit promise would be.

You're right that the phone call is not a guarantee that she's working with them, but it's interesting that it occurs right after the soul splice is wrapped up. If the distance between the IFCC and Tiamat is narratively important - if it's significant that the call was filtered through Lee's superiors - I'd expect there to be a bit more time between it and finishing V's immediate consequences of the splice.



2) Hilgya was sent by Loki to join the Linear Guild and eventually betray them and run off with Dorukan's talisman of outadated monster control. Sabine was sent with the IFFC to join the Linear Guild and maniplate them to serve as her masters' pawns. Looks like these two are working at cross-purposes.

2) Sabine plane-shifted away in Azure City to inform the IFCC about what was happening with the gates. Hilgya had already left the Linear Guild by that point. Before then, the IFCC were not necessarily using them as pawns for the gates.

Even if they were, Loki may not have been in on the whole reasoning thread through Nale, the IFCC, and Hilgya that connected her to the gates plot; he could have inadvertently screwed up the whole thing. Or he could have done so as part of the manipulation that the IFCC was already doing to the Linear Guild. Or he may very well be working at cross-purposes with the IFCC while still conspiring with them; it's really not out-of-character for him to be juggling a bunch of different schemes.

[Mike Havran]

To the IFCC, the "opportunity" that V represents is a high-level arcane caster that they can manipulate while she does the ritual to seal up the Snarl. By incapacitating V right when she needs to do her part, the ritual would be botched. The result may very well be that the Snarl is freed in a way that is less controlled than a voluntary destruction of the world, but the four-quiddity coalition alone are able to defend themselves and be left as the reigning gods. This would achieve the slaughter of good dragons that they promised to Tiamat, as well as the slaughter of the Upper Planes that they told V was the eventual end goal of the IFCC.
If that was their goal, they would have little reason to sacrifice their moment of surprise – use of one of the alloted time slots for V's soul – just to make Roy destroy Girard's gate. In fact, destroying the gate would be contraproductive since it increases the chance of Gods remaking the world in usual way.

[Kilo24]

If that was their goal, they would have little reason to sacrifice their moment of surprise – use of one of the alloted time slots for V's soul – just to make Roy destroy Girard's gate. In fact, destroying the gate would be contraproductive since it increases the chance of Gods remaking the world in usual way.

All the gates would need to be destroyed to release the Snarl. It's why the Godsmoot was called after one gate remains, not before then. Far from being counterproductive, the destruction of Girard's gate is a necessary part of their plan. The gates getting destroyed is the desired result of the "Destructive unnecessary conflict" they want.

[Mike Havran]

All the gates would need to be destroyed to release the Snarl. It's why the Godsmoot was called after one gate remains, not before then. Far from being counterproductive, the destruction of Girard's gate is a necessary part of their plan. The gates getting destroyed is the desired result of the "Destructive unnecessary conflict" they want. If all the gates need to be destroyed to release the Snarl, how can the plan work? Either:
A) The fifth Gate is destroyed
Then the gods will pull the plug immediately, way before Vaarsuvius has any kind of chance to learn the rift sealing magic ritual (not to mention V has no way of learning Scribble ritual we know about anyway).
B) The fifth Gate remains standing
Then Vaarsuvius has no reason to cast any spells on it, and their option of taking V to hells will accomplish nothing.

The plan would make some sense for a scenario where The Order saves the last gate and starts looking for a way to seal remaining rifts. Then the bungled ritual can wreak havoc. But for this scenario, one open rift is enough, and destruction of other gates only brings about unnecessary risk of the usual apocalypse.

[Kilo24]

The last gate may involve a controlled demolition with V on hand to cast the ritual, or perhaps the very sealing ritual itself requires the gate to be destroyed. It is evident that the IFCC expects V to do something time-critical involving the gates; if whatever it was could be done at any time then their minutes of incapacitation wouldn't matter. If the last gate is destroyed with the expectation that V can seal it before the Snarl can escape, that would fit the bill.

The gods can't pull the plug immediately after the Snarl gets released. If they could, they wouldn't need to bother with setting up and voting in the Godsmoot. They could have just destroyed the world right after the last gate broke. The last gate being destroyed will expose them to significantly more risk than voluntarily destroying the world before that happens, presumably because it will take time that the Snarl could use to run rampant.

In regards to there not being a way for V to learn the ritual that we know about, you're correct. However, right now the Order of the Stick has no better idea what to do with gates than just sitting on and protecting them. I sincerely doubt that they will get to the gate just to sit on it for an eternity; they will need to figure out something to do to protect it indefinitely so that they can go home. I'd put pretty good odds on that being some ritual resealing the rift (garnered perhaps from Thor), made with the very same blend of arcane and divine magic that the gates were constructed with originally.

[Mike Havran]

The last gate may involve a controlled demolition with V on hand to cast the ritual, or perhaps the very sealing ritual itself requires the gate to be destroyed. It is evident that the IFCC expects V to do something time-critical involving the gates; if whatever it was could be done at any time then their minutes of incapacitation wouldn't matter. If the last gate is destroyed with the expectation that V can seal it before the Snarl can escape, that would fit the bill.
I cannot imagine the Order/Roy attempting to destroy the last functional gate at all. I even believe that had he known about the godsmoot taking place, he would have not destroyed even the Girard's Gate. The risk is too high. And Roy already knows what the IFCC can do, so even in the unbelievable case they would tinker with the gate he would plan contingencies. And the IFCC know he knows.

The gods can't pull the plug immediately after the Snarl gets released. If they could, they wouldn't need to bother with setting up and voting in the Godsmoot. They could have just destroyed the world right after the last gate broke. The last gate being destroyed will expose them to significantly more risk than voluntarily destroying the world before that happens, presumably because it will take time that the Snarl could use to run rampant.
Loki explicitly says they can, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html). The godsmoot was not done because they wouldn't be able to tear the world immediately after the gates are down, but because some of the gods simply do not want to wait that long.

In regards to there not being a way for V to learn the ritual that we know about, you're correct. However, right now the Order of the Stick has no better idea what to do with gates than just sitting on and protecting them. I sincerely doubt that they will get to the gate just to sit on it for an eternity; they will need to figure out something to do to protect it indefinitely so that they can go home. I'd put pretty good odds on that being some ritual resealing the rift (garnered perhaps from Thor), made with the very same blend of arcane and divine magic that the gates were constructed with originally.Yes, but they won't try that something they've figured out on the last gate; they will safeguard the open rifts, since these are much more dangerous that the already sealed one. .

[Joerg]

Yes, if one gate still holds, it makes much more sense to first seal another rift than to first demolish that last gate.

Still, it is plausible that the IFCC wants all gates destroyed, and it's an interesting idea that the evil gods may secretly plan to control the Snarl and use it as a weapon against the good gods. I don't know if there's so much conflict between the gods, though. And I don't believe the IFCC's plan is based on taking V out while they perform a sealing ritual in any case.

[Rrmcklin]

The IFCC's goal is specifically about uniting the three fiendish races together, not all of evil. They explicitly spit on the idea of evil being "one big happy family".

They have to deal with Tiamat because they also mention they have a non-interference agreement with the evil gods, and they took out a lot of her followers, but the way they talk about it makes it clear she's not actually aware of/involved with their real plans.

Most of this is mentioned in the very strips linked to support the theory...

Also, maybe this is just me, but I'd need an actual reason besides "they're evil" to believe that Rat, Loki, and Tiamat would want to kill all the other gods, which we do not have.

[Kilo24]

I cannot imagine the Order/Roy attempting to destroy the last functional gate at all. I even believe that had he known about the godsmoot taking place, he would have not destroyed even the Girard's Gate. The risk is too high. And Roy already knows what the IFCC can do, so even in the unbelievable case they would tinker with the gate he would plan contingencies. And the IFCC know he knows.

I can imagine the Order/Roy attempting to destroy the last functional gate if it's part of a ritual to reseal it so that Redcloak can't manipulate it, or so that the four-quiddity seal can be established to make for safer gates. They certainly wouldn't be eager to do so, but if their nemeses are about to take control of the gate they might.

It's not established that the IFCC knows that Roy knows what they can do. Indeed, it was a big character growth moment for Vaarsuvius to admit that she failed; the IFCC may be counting on V being too proud to admit failure as that was a key trait that they exploited to seal the soul splice deal in the first place. V confessing to Roy might very well be end up being the the reason that the IFCC's plan fails.



Loki explicitly says they can, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html). The godsmoot was not done because they wouldn't be able to tear the world immediately after the gates are down, but because some of the gods simply do not want to wait that long.

Loki says that they will still have 10 to 15 minutes before the Snarl escapes once the rift is open. That's enough time to cast a spell or finish a ritual, and is well within the 43 minutes of incapacitation (minus however long it took for them to release V after Girard's gate) V still owes the IFCC. Personally, the vibe that I was getting from the Godsmoot vote was that the gods' survival would be at risk if that last gate was destroted, not that they just wanted to hurry up the destruction of the world. And that it would be a gamble to rely on the 10 to 15 minutes that Loki mentioned. In any case, they never do say that they would be able to tear apart the world immediately, but just imply that they can do at least enough of it to tie up the Snarl in those 10 to 15 minutes.


Yes, but they won't try that something they've figured out on the last gate; they will safeguard the open rifts, since these are much more dangerous that the already sealed one. .

The still-sealed gate is more dangerous than the open rifts if Redcloak can do his ritual on it. And the Order of the Stick obviously considers the sealed gate more dangerous than the open rifts, because they're chasing after it instead of all the open ones. I think it would be unlikely for the Order to leave the sealed gate alone when any antagonist can still get their hands on it; casting some ritual designed to safeguard the sealed gate would do that. The IFCC expects that V will do something that they can interrupt as part of their plan - given that V isn't interested in the destruction of the world, it's almost certainly going to be interrupting something critical that protects the world; a ritual that requires the Snarl to be freed to work but is finishable before the 10-15 minutes it'll take the Snarl to cause significant destruction fits the bill.

Keep in mind that Dorukan's gate was fitted with a self-destruction rune. They clearly expected that voluntarily destroying at least one gate could be a good idea. It might be that, if it was necessary to destroy all the gates to cast a ritual, the other gates could be destroyed without needing to coordinate their timing, and the Order of the Scribble could gather around Dorukan's gate to willingly destroy the last gate and cast the ritual right after. (Quite possibly as a last resort, since they separated from eachother acrimoniously.)

[Rrmcklin]

Also, I have to say:


Now, Tiamat in particular has already been explicitly connected with the IFCC, which quite likely involves the same scheme that most of the Western gods suspect her of (OOTS #1143). They get a call from her right after the Familicide event ( OOTS #667) and are able to defend themselves by referencing "a secret scheme to bring down the gods of Good."

You completely missed the context of both of these points. The point of Thor's comment is that Tiamat isn't lying, but that most members of the Western Pantheon are too paranoid to believe her.

And the way the IFCC talk about it make it obvious that Tiamat doesn't know what the "secret scheme" they have actually is, and that they aren't actually being straight with her.


Lee: I managed to convince her that it was an unfortunate necessity of a secret scheme to bring down the gods of Good.

Cedrik: Technically true, I suppose.

Nero: Good work.

A lot of points in your theory ignore the actual context/point of what's being said, which doesn't say much for it's plausibility.

[Kilo24]

The IFCC's goal is specifically about uniting the three fiendish races together, not all of evil. They explicitly spit on the idea of evil being "one big happy family".

They have to deal with Tiamat because they also mention they have a non-interference agreement with the evil gods, and they took out a lot of her followers, but the way they talk about it makes it clear she's not actually aware of/involved with their real plans.

Most of this is mentioned in the very strips linked to support the theory...

Also, maybe this is just me, but I'd need an actual reason besides "they're evil" to believe that Rat, Loki, and Tiamat would want to kill all the other gods, which we do not have.

The IFCC's goal, as stated to V, is indeed to demonstrate that the three fiendish races can work together. There is obviously more to it, as Qarr deduces, and IIRC the Giant's commentary indicates that Qarr is there to let them talk to someone that they're not manipulating as heavily. I'm suggesting that the more to it is "If all three fiends can work together, why can't goblinoids work with us too?" They're not unifying all of evil, just enough of gods who share an alignment axis to get the four quiddities.

The IFCC has a non-compete clause with the evil gods, not a non-interference agreement. A non-compete clause does not mean that they can't be working for some of the gods; indeed the existence of a contract between them indicates that they are interacting with the evil gods in some capacity.

Rat, Loki and Tiamat may want to kill all the other gods, or they may not. But I would expect that they'd all be happy having the power to be able to kill all the other gods. Whatever exact plans they have for a four-quiddity alliance, they would likely be able to use the Snarl as a bargaining chip in much the same way that the Dark One's plan gives him leverage over the other gods.

[Rrmcklin]

The IFCC's goal, as stated to V, is indeed to demonstrate that the three fiendish races can work together. There is obviously more to it, as Qarr deduces, and IIRC the Giant's commentary indicates that Qarr is there to let them talk to someone that they're not manipulating as heavily. I'm suggesting that the more to it is "If all three fiends can work together, why can't goblinoids work with us too?" They're not unifying all of evil, just enough of gods who share an alignment axis to get the four quiddities.

The IFCC has a non-compete clause with the evil gods, not a non-interference agreement. A non-compete clause does not mean that they can't be working for some of the gods; indeed the existence of a contract between them indicates that they are interacting with the evil gods in some capacity.

Rat, Loki and Tiamat may want to kill all the other gods, or they may not. But I would expect that they'd all be happy having the power to be able to kill all the other gods. Whatever exact plans they have for a four-quiddity alliance, they would likely be able to use the Snarl as a bargaining chip in much the same way that the Dark One's plan gives him leverage over the other gods.

You're making more of a distinction between "non-compete" and "non-interference" than I think most people would. But, fine, non-compete. Which doesn't necessarily mean they can't work with evil gods, but also doesn't mean they are just because an evil god contacted them.

Your theory falls a part when you say that Tiamat is already a part of the grand designs when she clearly isn't. If Tiamat and the IFCC were on the same page, Lee wouldn't be technically telling her the truth - he'd just be telling her the truth.

And she also wouldn't demand that they kill five good dragons for every evil one killed by V in their scheme if the ultimate goal of the plan, that she is already a part of in your theory, is to destroy this world and create a new one.

Edit: Actually, I just realized another flaw in your theory, you talk of them having a four quiddity alliance to "combat" the Snarl, when, based off of the information we have, no such thing has been implied.

Unless you mean they could release the Snarl in the Outer Planes, it kills all the other gods, and then this alliance builds a world around the Snarl in the Outer Planes. But that raises the question of why the gods didn't simply build a world in the Outer Planes if it was possible? They wouldn't have to worry about the Snarl destroying them or their creations, and it would have saved them the trouble of this cycle they've been on for millions or billions of years.

Edit Edit: You're also ignoring that the elder gods, such as Loki, Tiamat, and Rat very much do not consider the Snarl to be something to be toyed with. Looking at SOD, Tiamat is the one who tells the Dark One to stay away from the thing in the first place.

[Kilo24]

You completely missed the context of both of these points. The point of Thor's comment is that Tiamat isn't lying, but that most members of the Western Pantheon are too paranoid to believe her.
She isn't lying. However, the suspicions foreshadow that Tiamat may very well be scheming something. I don't know of anything else that she'd be scheming besides with the IFCC, and as far as I can recall the only things that Tiamat specifically has been involved with over the course of the strip is the Oracle, the Dark One's defense, and her phone call to the IFCC.



And the way the IFCC talk about it make it obvious that Tiamat doesn't know what the "secret scheme" they have actually is, and that they aren't actually being straight with her.
I disagree. I mentioned multiple reasons why they would speak to a complicit Tiamat in that way in a response to an earlier post. To summarize, there may be multiple secret schemes against the gods of good that Tiamat is concerned with, they may be reluctant to acknowledge their connection to Tiamat with Qarr present, and/or the Giant may have felt that specifying "the secret plot" instead of "a secret plot" gives away too much of a future plot twist.

I think it's significant that Tiamat calls them right after the soul splice is done. That implies that she has some knowledge of what's going on and didn't require much time to figure out what happened. Moreover, the fact that they're able to mollify her indicates that she places some weight in the scheme. I don't think Lee would have gotten off so easily if Tiamat had lost so many of her worshippers for a random scheme that Tiamat knew nothing about.

The death of the black dragons is only "technically" part of the scheme because it's an indirect consequence of giving V that much power. It's never indicated to be a central part of the scheme; what they're concerned with is getting Xykon off his ass and getting V indebted to them.

About using four quiddities to combat the Snarl, you're right that that has not been implied. I was using a vague word deliberately, and probably could have figured out a better one. They might not be able to fight it, but they might be able to erect a four-quiddity blockade somewhere else instead of sealing the gates, or do something else that requires a stronger quiddity collection that the gods can currently manage. We still don't know much about what four quiddities are capable of (we've learned about them only recently), but I think it's a reasonable assumption that they would be useful for manipulating the Snarl in ways beyond sealing the rifts.



Edit Edit: You're also ignoring that the elder gods, such as Loki, Tiamat, and Rat very much do not consider the Snarl to be something to be toyed with. Looking at SOD, Tiamat is the one who tells the Dark One to stay away from the thing in the first place.
They're afraid of the Snarl. That doesn't mean that they're not willing to use it. If they hide away behind a four-quiddity barrier while the rest of the gods die, they're still protected from it and don't need to toy with it themselves. Regardless, they are willing to risk interaction to some degree: Loki is willing to gamble on the 10-15 minutes after the last gate is destroyed that the Snarl is escaping during, and Rat's the one in SoD who relents on not telling TDO about the Snarl.

Saying "Don't mess with this" can mean "Don't play with this sword, it'll poke your eye out" just as well as "Lock this in a box and throw away the key".

[Rrmcklin]

She isn't lying. However, the suspicions foreshadow that Tiamat may very well be scheming something. I don't know of anything else that she'd be scheming besides with the IFCC, and as far as I can recall the only things that Tiamat specifically has been involved with over the course of the strip is the Oracle, the Dark One's defense, and her phone call to the IFCC.


I disagree. I mentioned multiple reasons why they would speak to a complicit Tiamat in that way in a response to an earlier post. To summarize, there may be multiple secret schemes against the gods of good that Tiamat is concerned with, they may be reluctant to acknowledge their connection to Tiamat with Qarr present, and/or the Giant may have felt that specifying "the secret plot" instead of "a secret plot" gives away too much of a future plot twist.

I think it's significant that Tiamat calls them right after the soul splice is done. That implies that she has some knowledge of what's going on and didn't require much time to figure out what happened. Moreover, the fact that they're able to mollify her indicates that she places some weight in the scheme. I don't think Lee would have gotten off so easily if Tiamat had lost so many of her worshippers for a random scheme that Tiamat knew nothing about.

The death of the black dragons is only "technically" part of the scheme because it's an indirect consequence of giving V that much power. It's never indicated to be a central part of the scheme; what they're concerned with is getting Xykon off his ass and getting V indebted to them.

About using four quiddities to combat the Snarl, you're right that that has not been implied. I was using a vague word deliberately, and probably could have figured out a better one. They might not be able to fight it, but they might be able to erect a four-quiddity blockade somewhere else instead of sealing the gates, or do something else that requires a stronger quiddity collection that the gods can currently manage. We still don't know much about what four quiddities are capable of (we've learned about them only recently), but I think it's a reasonable assumption that they would be useful for manipulating the Snarl in ways beyond sealing the rifts.

Honestly, what it sounds like to me is that you like the theory and so you're interpreting things in a way they obviously aren't meant to be interpreted to fix the glaring holes. In which event, I really don't have more to say.

[Kilo24]

Honestly, what it sounds like to me is that you like the theory and so you're interpreting things in a way they obviously aren't meant to be interpreted to fix the glaring holes. In which event, I really don't have more to say.

And it sounds to me like you ran out of counterarguments. I'm not entirely convinced by the theory myself, and do point out some of its flaws. But I disagree that they "obviously aren't meant to be interpreted" the way I'm arguing.

[martianmister]

Loki explicitly says they can, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html).

"Some of those worlds, we saved--by which I mean, we killed everyone but cashed out their souls before the end. Others, we didn't." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html)

[Mike Havran]

I can imagine the Order/Roy attempting to destroy the last functional gate if it's part of a ritual to reseal it so that Redcloak can't manipulate it, or so that the four-quiddity seal can be established to make for safer gates. They certainly wouldn't be eager to do so, but if their nemeses are about to take control of the gate they might.You seem to assume the Order will be doing something to the gates to prevent their nemeses to use it. My take on this is that the direct and primary goal of the Order is to confront the antagonists directly and defeat them permanently; this is their highest priority and they won't deal with the gates at all until this is done. The Order only race to the gates because they know bad guys will be there. At Girard's Gate, they were special circumstances that made Roy make his decision to actually do anything with the Gate:
1. He didn't know what Vaarsuvius saw
2. He didn't know the consequences of Godsmoot.
3. They were critically weakened: without Durkon, without V, with crippled Belkar and almost no healing.
None of these circumstances are correct anymore and won't be at Kraagor's gate.


It's not established that the IFCC knows that Roy knows what they can do. Indeed, it was a big character growth moment for Vaarsuvius to admit that she failed; the IFCC may be counting on V being too proud to admit failure as that was a key trait that they exploited to seal the soul splice deal in the first place. V confessing to Roy might very well be end up being the the reason that the IFCC's plan fails. However, it is well-established they can scry on mortals and are good at putting their plans together. And how can their plan even work if they don't monitor Vaarsuvius 24/7?


Loki says that they will still have 10 to 15 minutes before the Snarl escapes once the rift is open. That's enough time to cast a spell or finish a ritual, and is well within the 43 minutes of incapacitation (minus however long it took for them to release V after Girard's gate) V still owes the IFCC. Personally, the vibe that I was getting from the Godsmoot vote was that the gods' survival would be at risk if that last gate was destroted, not that they just wanted to hurry up the destruction of the world. And that it would be a gamble to rely on the 10 to 15 minutes that Loki mentioned. In any case, they never do say that they would be able to tear apart the world immediately, but just imply that they can do at least enough of it to tie up the Snarl in those 10 to 15 minutes.Well, I certainly got a different vibe. Pulling the strings out of the world was something they did a billion times and this is no different. You said yourself: they can do enough of it so their survival is not at risk. Whether you interpret Loki's quote as tearing the world or tying up Snarl does not matter.


The still-sealed gate is more dangerous than the open rifts if Redcloak can do his ritual on it. And the Order of the Stick obviously considers the sealed gate more dangerous than the open rifts, because they're chasing after it instead of all the open ones. I think it would be unlikely for the Order to leave the sealed gate alone when any antagonist can still get their hands on it; casting some ritual designed to safeguard the sealed gate would do that.No, defeating the only known/relevant antagonists who are after gates will do that. Much safer than thinkering around the last buttress of the world with a ritual magic they don't even know at this point.


The IFCC expects that V will do something that they can interrupt as part of their plan - given that V isn't interested in the destruction of the world, it's almost certainly going to be interrupting something critical that protects the world; a ritual that requires the Snarl to be freed to work but is finishable before the 10-15 minutes it'll take the Snarl to cause significant destruction fits the bill. Well, guarding the last gate for all of their lives seems much less risky in comparison with voluntarily destroying the final gates in order to complete a ritual that requires releasing a god-devouring abomination. And I see no reason why the rift-sealing ritual couldn't be cast on a free rift while another rift hundred miles away is covered by a Gate, other than that your speculation wouldn't work otherwise.


Keep in mind that Dorukan's gate was fitted with a self-destruction rune. They clearly expected that voluntarily destroying at least one gate could be a good idea. It might be that, if it was necessary to destroy all the gates to cast a ritual, the other gates could be destroyed without needing to coordinate their timing, and the Order of the Scribble could gather around Dorukan's gate to willingly destroy the last gate and cast the ritual right after. (Quite possibly as a last resort, since they separated from eachother acrimoniously.) The self-destruct button was only made by Dorukan; there is no reason to believe other Scribblers agreed with him (at least Soon certainly didn't)


"Some of those worlds, we saved--by which I mean, we killed everyone but cashed out their souls before the end. Others, we didn't." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html)
So what? They can do it. They were careless before and failed, that was bound to happen a few times.

[Kilo24]

You seem to assume the Order will be doing something to the gates to prevent their nemeses to use it. My take on this is that the direct and primary goal of the Order is to confront the antagonists directly and defeat them permanently; this is their highest priority and they won't deal with the gates at all until this is done. The Order only race to the gates because they know bad guys will be there. At Girard's Gate, they were special circumstances that made Roy make his decision to actually do anything with the Gate:
1. He didn't know what Vaarsuvius saw
2. He didn't know the consequences of Godsmoot.
3. They were critically weakened: without Durkon, without V, with crippled Belkar and almost no healing.
None of these circumstances are correct anymore and won't be at Kraagor's gate.

Will the Order of the Stick permanently deal with Xykon and Redcloak? Likely.

Are they going to permanently deal with Hel? Are they going to permanently deal with Tarquin? Are they going to permanently deal with the IFCC? Are they going to leave the gates in their current state while the open rifts grow and the same situation that led the gods to vote on destroying the world persists? Are they going to split up and guard the gates separately like the Order of the Scribble did, a situation that led to the current crisis? I very much doubt they'll do all of these things.

And if they don't do any one of them, they'll need a more lasting solution to the Snarl problem. Sealing the rifts with the four quiddities is likely to be part of that solution.



However, it is well-established they can scry on mortals and are good at putting their plans together. And how can their plan even work if they don't monitor Vaarsuvius 24/7?
It certainly is plausible that they know about the discussion with Roy. But I think it's a stretch to presume that they are watching V 24/7. It's shown that they have other responsibilities to worry about than obsessively tracking V (like talking with gods. managing fiends like Sabine and Qarr, and dealing with the souls from Tarquin's dead army). Nor have they delegated the task to someone else who can watch V 24/7. Thus I think it's also plausible that they don't know about the discussion with Roy.



Well, I certainly got a different vibe. Pulling the strings out of the world was something they did a billion times and this is no different. You said yourself: they can do enough of it so their survival is not at risk. Whether you interpret Loki's quote as tearing the world or tying up Snarl does not matter.
Heimdall's speech supporting the destruction of the world in OOTS #998 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html): "My fellow deities, we must protect ourselves from the danger of which we dare not speak. ...It is the only safe and reasonable option. Thank you."

I'm not sure how you can read that and assume that the deities aren't putting themselves at risk by the last gate's destruction.



No, defeating the only known/relevant antagonists who are after gates will do that. Much safer than thinkering around the last buttress of the world with a ritual magic they don't even know at this point.
It's a stretch to believe that they will defeat all the antagonists who are aware of the gates while simultaneously defending the last gate instead of doing something with the last gate itself.

They don't know a ritual right now, but the only safe interaction that we've seen with the Snarl has been via rituals. And we know enough details about the rituals dealing with the Snarl that another solution would involve much less foreshadowing.


Well, guarding the last gate for all of their lives seems much less risky in comparison with voluntarily destroying the final gates in order to complete a ritual that requires releasing a god-devouring abomination. And I see no reason why the rift-sealing ritual couldn't be cast on a free rift while another rift hundred miles away is covered by a Gate, other than that your speculation wouldn't work otherwise.
Because leaving the remaining gate while they work on the open rifts would leave it vulnerable. And because the rift-sealing ritual now involves four quiddities, not three. I think it's a reasonable possibility that applying a new type of seal requires removing the old one first; we have already been handed the information that the Snarl escaping once the last gate is destroyed takes 10 to 15 minutes.


The self-destruct button was only made by Dorukan; there is no reason to believe other Scribblers agreed with him (at least Soon certainly didn't)

It required coordination to capture the rifts and create the gates. You'd expect an adventuring party to be more likely to agree with eachother than a group of unrelated people; it's overstating your point to say that there is "no reason to believe other Scribblers agreed with him".

Now, the fact that they fought enough to require the agreement to separate is an an issue, as is the lack of a self-destruct button in every other gate shown thus far. But Dorukan's liaison with Lirian did show that at least some rapport between the Scribblers did persist through their disagreement.

Regardless, the self destruct button is not strong evidence of this theory and, unless we get evidence of more buttons or more information about the Scribblers' disagreement, won't be. At this point, it is simply some food for thought.

[martianmister]

So what? They can do it. They were careless before and failed, that was bound to happen a few times.

"We saved some" doesn't say to me that only few of them lost to the snarl.

[Mike Havran]

Will the Order of the Stick permanently deal with Xykon and Redcloak? Likely.

Are they going to permanently deal with Hel? Are they going to permanently deal with Tarquin? Are they going to permanently deal with the IFCC? Are they going to leave the gates in their current state while the open rifts grow and the same situation that led the gods to vote on destroying the world persists? Are they going to split up and guard the gates separately like the Order of the Scribble did, a situation that led to the current crisis? I very much doubt they'll do all of these things.

And if they don't do any one of them, they'll need a more lasting solution to the Snarl problem. Sealing the rifts with the four quiddities is likely to be part of that solution.Let's start with the first sentence (emphasis mine). We don't know yet how much collateral damage Kraagor's tomb will take during the final confrontation. As it is, the tomb is robust and extremely difficult to conquer, and the monsters are either drawn to it or multiplicate inside, as Oona mentioned. So if the Order defeats Xykon and Redcloak, they can simply clean the doors and the protection of monsters will be quite enough to defy Tarquin or whichever priest will remain in Hel's services. The IFCC can influence the world primarily via Vaarsuvius, so to defy them, not using Vaarsuvius to tinker with the gate will be enough.



Heimdall's speech supporting the destruction of the world in OOTS #998 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html): "My fellow deities, we must protect ourselves from the danger of which we dare not speak. ...It is the only safe and reasonable option. Thank you."

I'm not sure how you can read that and assume that the deities aren't putting themselves at risk by the last gate's destruction.If there is any risk, it is no greater than in any other of the billion or so worlds. Heimdall is the deity of Watch and careful approach, so it is obvious that he will propose way which minimizes the risk. Most of the other gods voiced other reasons.

Remember, the gods were once willing to give the Scribblers plenty of time to develop ritual, locate the rifts ad seal them, even though the rifts were already there and Snarl was devouring nearby creatures from it. That doesn't seem like they were afraid back then.

There is other, huge risk in case the Gate is destroyed: to the mortal world, that the Snarl will devour it before Gods will be able to unmake it. Roy is certainly reasonable enough to explore every other possibility to avoid blasting the gate and endanger mortals, including trying whichever sealing ritual on another rift.



Because leaving the remaining gate while they work on the open rifts would leave it vulnerable. And because the rift-sealing ritual now involves four quiddities, not three. I think it's a reasonable possibility that applying a new type of seal requires removing the old one first; we have already been handed the information that the Snarl escaping once the last gate is destroyed takes 10 to 15 minutes. Again, leaving it hidden in the tomb and guarded by maze that contains monsters is far from vulnerable. And they have four remaining rifts, where the old seal is already removed and waiting for a new one.

[The Pilgrim]

Let's start with the first sentence (emphasis mine). We don't know yet how much collateral damage Kraagor's tomb will take during the final confrontation.

10 gold says it will go "CCCCRRACKKKAAAKKOOOOOOOOM!!!!"