"My name's Tommy, and I'm a TOUGH guy!"

[Afgncaap5]

*10 year old with a newsie cap emphatically points thumb at self to punctuate the declarative statement*

So. What's the Toughest Tommy can get?

The *easy* answer is to take the Toughness feat at every opportunity. The *slightly better* answer is to make one of those feats Improved Toughness. However, it's worth noting that Toughness (as a concept, not a feat) isn't necessarily about having the most hit points. It's about being *tough*.

I'd ideally like Tommy the Tough Guy (who is, again, a 10 year old in a newsie cap, never forget this) truly embody toughness in all ways, though. Clearly, super high ranks in Intimidate are called for. Theoretically, Endurance and Diehard fit this mold, but then I'd lose out on a few feat slots to take Toughness with, and that's a tricky thing to justify. Barbarians arguably get tougher when they get angry, but Tommy's *always* a little angry, and you don't see him getting fatigued by it, though maybe an occasional barbarian rage is called for?

And for the sake of simplicity, let's keep Tommy with no more than two base classes and no more than one prestige class. He doesn't have time for all of this multiclassing nonsense, not when there's tough things to do.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Commoner 1. Polymorph any object him into a riverine statue. Now he can't be harmed without a disintegration effect.

[Afgncaap5]

That sounds like book smarts! Get outta here with yer 8th level spells at level 1 and yer not-always-setting-permitted force/water materials, fella, can'tcha see we're tryin' to be tough here?

On the other hand, Commoner 1 might be a good way to get easy entry into the Survivor class. Thanks! Probably a decent starting point.

[Nifft]

Tommy has some green in 'im, thanks to the Troll Blooded feat which gives him Regeneration 1. The prerequisite is Toughness, and Tommy is already known to be tough, so he doesn't even complain about having to take that feat.

Regeneration makes Tommy much tougher in actual combat -- unless someone tries to set him on fire, but then most 10-year-olds react poorly to being set on fire [citation needed].


EDIT: Wait, we can do better... instead of Toughness, let's have him take Azure Toughness [Incarnum], which gets him one point of Essentia. Now with a 3rd feat (from a Flaw or at 3rd level or from being a Human Paragon), Tommy can take Shape Soulmeld (Astral Vambraces (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a)) for DR 4/magic, which makes him quite tough indeed (relative to the types of attacks faced by a typical 10-year-old).

[Afgncaap5]

Now we're talkin'! Tommy's leery about eatin' 'is greens, but combine it with blue from incarnum and it looks enough like candy for Popeye's pep talks about spinache to make it work for him.

If I go the Survivor route, he'll already be gettin' DR 5/- by level 6, do you think that makes DR 4/magic superfluous? I was never good at remembering which DRs trump what, but I know there's sense in having more than one kind sometimes. Theoretically, Azure Toughness means that if he can keep up with Incarnum use, he can just keep gettin' tougher an' tougher through pure soul energy, which he's got in spades lemme tell you.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

As soon as he can afford it, pay for a casting of the spell enlarge person followed by curse of lycanthropy to become a were-T-rex. Since he qualified for T-rex while enlarged, he should retain the racial traits even if he's not allowed to transform.

[the_david]

I'm really having problems seeing a ten year old as anything but a first level commoner.

Is Tommy a Dwarf? The bonus on Constitution might help a little, as would the bonus on his saves. The Dwarven paragon class might help a bit, though it's probably not the best choice. Alternatively, you can just add the Dragonborn template/race to Dwarf for a +4 on Constitution. Monks have good saves and they get evasion early in the game. Not so good with the hit points though.

[Nifft]

Now we're talkin'! Tommy's leery about eatin' 'is greens, but combine it with blue from incarnum and it looks enough like candy for Popeye's pep talks about spinache to make it work for him.

If I go the Survivor route, he'll already be gettin' DR 5/- by level 6, do you think that makes DR 4/magic superfluous?

Yes, they'd overlap (not stack) and DR 5/-- is better than DR 4/magic.

But he doesn't get DR 5/-- until level 6, and he has to actually survive his first 5 levels -- for which DR 4/magic might help significantly.

I'd suggest retraining for a different Soulmeld when he gets DR 5/--; perhaps a Soulmeld which prevents Fire damage.

Also, to be brutally honest, the Survivor class kind of sucks when you compare it to being a straight-up Rogue -- and Rogue seems like a much better fit for a streetwise kid than Commoner. On a mechanical level, Rogue gets most of the same benefits as Survivor (Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge) over 8 levels, with only Improved Evasion and DR 5/-- as advantages to the Survivor. But in compensation for those two features, the Survivor has terrible BAB, no offensive features, and awful skills.

Rogue on the other side has good skills (including tough-guy skills like Intimidate / Bluff / Sense Motive), decent offense (Sneak Attack), and some worthwhile escape features if Tommy finds his toughness insufficient (Tumble / Hide / Use Magic Device).

If you're fixated on Survivor, I'd suggest putting it on a non-humanoid.

[Afgncaap5]

As soon as he can afford it, pay for a casting of the spell enlarge person followed by curse of lycanthropy to become a were-T-rex. Since he qualified for T-rex while enlarged, he should retain the racial traits even if he's not allowed to transform.

Now yer on the trolley! Though, sadly, I don't think I can use that sorta thing. I have a general "Once the duration of the initial spell that allowed it to happen wears off, the secondary effect is adjusted accordingly" rule in my settings, and I try to extend that house rule to the games of other GMs I play in since I don't care for, say, double baleful polymorphs being permanent. Havin' said that, if he can get a pal to make 'im a big guy in addition t'bein' a tough guy, and also follow him around or T-rex curses, then that might be a fun fast one t'pull on anyone who thinks he'll be a pushover!


I'm really having problems seeing a ten year old as anything but a first level commoner.

Is Tommy a Dwarf? The bonus on Constitution might help a little, as would the bonus on his saves. The Dwarven paragon class might help a bit, though it's probably not the best choice. Alternatively, you can just add the Dragonborn template/race to Dwarf for a +4 on Constitution. Monks have good saves and they get evasion early in the game. Not so good with the hit points though.

Realistically? Yeah, he's probably not going to be much more than a level 1 commoner, level 1 expert, or, at best, a level 0.9 rogue in this economy. Even if I bump him up to 12 he wouldn't do much better, and any older than that and he starts to risk losing his Goonies-esque, Kid-From-****-Tracy spunk.

I'm not *opposed* to him bein' a dwarf, or any of the player's handbook races really. Heck, I'd let him be a kobold or goblin if the DM made a setting inspired by Gadgetzan's mean streets, since I think Tommy'd fit in pretty well on Grimestreet. I think the "core" of the class is human-ish, but dwarf and dragon-born options are certainly "on the table", as it were.


Also, to be brutally honest, the Survivor class kind of sucks when you compare it to being a straight-up Rogue -- and Rogue seems like a much better fit for a streetwise kid than Commoner.

Oh, totally, I'm in agreement there. Unfortunately, Tommy's not that good at bein' an adventurer, what with him being too concerned about bein' a tough guy. Havin' said that, I'm not opposed to some levels of Rogue, even if Fighter and Ranger feel like better fits. Monk was brought up, but that feels a little too, uh... well, when I think Monk the word "rambunctious" doesn't really apply, but I'd definitely apply that to Tommy.

[Nifft]

Oh, totally, I'm in agreement there. Unfortunately, Tommy's not that good at bein' an adventurer, what with him being too concerned about bein' a tough guy. Havin' said that, I'm not opposed to some levels of Rogue, even if Fighter and Ranger feel like better fits. Monk was brought up, but that feels a little too, uh... well, when I think Monk the word "rambunctious" doesn't really apply, but I'd definitely apply that to Tommy. Hmm.

TOUGH GUY might be a Barbarian who trades away Rage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#barbarian) for Ranger features... but that's not an urban newsie type kid anymore, that's a hunter who can out-run a chuul and out-snipe a manticore.

[Afgncaap5]

Hmm.

TOUGH GUY might be a Barbarian who trades away Rage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#barbarian) for Ranger features... but that's not an urban newsie type kid anymore, that's a hunter who can out-run a chuul and out-snipe a manticore.

Yeah... don't get me wrong, he'd totally tangle with a chuul on his turf if it came to it, but I dunno about hunting 'em...

Since Incarnum's on the table, how about Incarnate or Soulborn as a base class? The Soulmeld trait of improving melds so that they're "good enough" for a given job feels appropriate, but it also seems a bit fiddly for a pretty cut-and-dry fellow like Tommy.

Unrelated, but I just thought a bit about the Survivor class; it seems to me that as the class progresses, it technically loses out on the requirements to join the class! Am I reading that right? I mean, clearly RAI you're that shouldn't matter, but I think by RAW the class would eventually knock itself out of meeting its own requirements thanks to its generous save bonuses.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

He's actually a demon lord. He's just shapechanged into a street urchin...

[Afgncaap5]

He's actually a demon lord. He's just shapechanged into a street urchin...

Ha! Fun thought, but who's got time to be a demon lord in this economy? Gotta sell these papers and make ends meet, pal.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Toughest level 1 just based on his class would be crusader. Infinite in-combat healing and steely resolve 5 and a large HD and good armor proficiencies means he's not going down to hp damage vs anything near his level.

With two flaws, you could make him a dragonborn warforged with Azure Toughness, Troll Blooded, and the Adamantine Body feat for +4 Con, +8 AC, regeneration 1, and lots of construct immunities (including fatigue, thereby negating the problems with Troll Blooded). Just remember, he's a magical cyborg or android type. Maybe his soul was transferred into an artificial body, which is set to grow "naturally" until he's the size, shape, and age of an adult human, after which he's mechanically identical to a dragonborn warforged.

He could be Lt Cmdr Data's long lost Soong son.

[edit] Technically, I believe you gain bonus hp as a construct, depending on your size.

[Afgncaap5]

Toughest level 1 just based on his class would be crusader. Infinite in-combat healing and steely resolve 5 and a large HD and good armor proficiencies means he's not going down to hp damage vs anything near his level.

With two flaws, you could make him a dragonborn warforged with Azure Toughness, Troll Blooded, and the Adamantine Body feat for +4 Con, +8 AC, regeneration 1, and lots of construct immunities (including fatigue, thereby negating the problems with Troll Blooded). Just remember, he's a magical cyborg or android type. Maybe his soul was transferred into an artificial body, which is set to grow "naturally" until he's the size, shape, and age of an adult human, after which he's mechanically identical to a dragonborn warforged.

He could be Lt Cmdr Data's long lost Soong son.

[edit] Technically, I believe you gain bonus hp as a construct, depending on your size.

That's fun, but seems a bit fancy for Tommy's whole deal. I could definitely see Tommy having to tangle with someone like that, usin' their fancy half-warforged, half-troll on their dragon-grandma's side upbringing to muscle in on his paper turf, but Tommy himself likely won't go in for a lotta that. Maybe one or two of 'em, but there's a reason Tommy's only got two base classes and one or two prestige classes, even if we've not exactly figured out what they are. Crusader, though, that's a real nice start to be sure, assumin' he can afford the armor (which, by class starting gold values, shouldn't be a problem.)

[Goaty14]

[edit] Technically, I believe you gain bonus hp as a construct, depending on your size.

Yes, but as a dragonborn, you're no longer a construct.

[Deophaun]

Commoner 1. Polymorph any object him into a riverine statue. Now he can't be harmed without a disintegration effect.
Or forceward.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That's fun, but seems a bit fancy for Tommy's whole deal. I could definitely see Tommy having to tangle with someone like that, usin' their fancy half-warforged, half-troll on their dragon-grandma's side upbringing to muscle in on his paper turf, but Tommy himself likely won't go in for a lotta that. Maybe one or two of 'em, but there's a reason Tommy's only got two base classes and one or two prestige classes, even if we've not exactly figured out what they are. Crusader, though, that's a real nice start to be sure, assumin' he can afford the armor (which, by class starting gold values, shouldn't be a problem.)Then give him proficiency in crescent blade. If you're in the healing stance, that heals you twice as much per hit, since you hit twice with each attack. That'd either require Exotic Weapon Proficiency or a skillful weapon. Maybe an aptitude weapon with a racial Weapon Proficiency (if you're an elf or kobold, say), or maybe a skillful/morphing weapon for more options when you don't need to double the healing.


Yes, but as a dragonborn, you're no longer a construct.It doesn't change your type, however. It's just that the devs apparently didn't think that any player would EVER want to play anything but a human, possibly with pointy ears or green skin.


Or forceward.Or forceward. Ouch.

[Afgncaap5]

Then give him proficiency in crescent blade. If you're in the healing stance, that heals you twice as much per hit, since you hit twice with each attack. That'd either require Exotic Weapon Proficiency or a skillful weapon. Maybe an aptitude weapon with a racial Weapon Proficiency (if you're an elf or kobold, say), or maybe a skillful/morphing weapon for more options when you don't need to double the healing.



This all sounds pretty fancy for Tommy. Don't get me wrong, Tommy knows the value of healing, and hittin' twice is better than hittin' once. But the word "Exotic" in there seems off. Also, when I search for it, I can't find any Crescent Blade? Where's this comin' from? Is it Pathfinder? There's somethin' in Pathfinder, but that ain't gonna fly for this 3.5 concept, otherwise the Toughness feat just gets all sensible and practical all of a sudden, and we can't have that.

[Blue Jay]

The Streetfighter PrC is for TOUGH guys. It even has "Stand Tough," which lets him turn damage into nonlethal damage. That's not useful on a Troll-Blooded Tommy, and it maxes out at 2/day; but it's definitely for TOUGH guys.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

This all sounds pretty fancy for Tommy. Don't get me wrong, Tommy knows the value of healing, and hittin' twice is better than hittin' once. But the word "Exotic" in there seems off. Also, when I search for it, I can't find any Crescent Blade? Where's this comin' from? Is it Pathfinder? There's somethin' in Pathfinder, but that ain't gonna fly for this 3.5 concept, otherwise the Toughness feat just gets all sensible and practical all of a sudden, and we can't have that.Dragon #275. It's basically a brass knuckles, but it has a crescent moon-shaped blade where the knuckles would be, pointy ends extending out from each side of the fist. You punch someone, and the pointy ends stab 'em. Twice! Basically, it's the threeway love-child of brass knuckles and a couple of shivs.

It's mainly "exotic" because everything that isn't a dagger, quarterstaff, sword, or polearm is apparently "exotic."


Since Incarnum's on the table, how about...Soulborn as a base class?That "joke" isn't funny. At all. *Shudder*

[Nifft]

Yeah, I think Crusader is probably the toughest class for a humanoid. That's a good idea.

But it's complicated, and the implied martial discipline might not fit the flavor of the streetwise punk kid with an attitude.

For a streetwise punk kid with attitude, I do think the Barbarian which trades out Rage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#barbarian) and picks up some urban skills (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) would be a good fit. Trade out all 4 skills (to gain Gather Information, Kn(local), Sense Motive, and Tumble).

[Raimun]

He should be a Cleric and Divine Metamagic himself for 24h with that spell that keeps you alive, even if you are at -500 hp or -50,000 hp. And cast Heal at himself whenever the going gets... tough.

And maybe get Toughness and Improved Toughness too for good measure...?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yeah, I think Crusader is probably the toughest class for a humanoid. That's a good idea.

But it's complicated, and the implied martial discipline might not fit the flavor of the streetwise punk kid with an attitude.It's fluff. And the ToB fluff is widely considered crap. Tommy's a scrapper that can do all sorts of dirty tricks, and he's really good at endurance fighting. It takes forever to put him down. He also knows how to hit you where it hurts.

There. Crusader's a fine fit for Tommy.


For a streetwise punk kid with attitude, I do think the Barbarian which trades out Rage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#barbarian) and picks up some urban skills (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) would be a good fit. Trade out all 4 skills (to gain Gather Information, Kn(local), Sense Motive, and Tumble).A barbarian dip is always a good idea for any melee'er. Tommy's small and extremely fast, with quick hands. He can run in and jab half a dozen times before you even know he's there. Whirling frenzy and spirit lion totem for lots of attacks (along with his personalized brass knuckles with nails driven through them -- ie, crescent blades) make sure he gets his paper money on his deliveries.

[AvatarVecna]

If you're willing to accept mixing PF and 3.5 mechanics/rulesets, go Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo-barbarian-archetypes/invulnerable-rager/)). The build really comes online around lvl 12, though, which might be a bit high for Tommy's tastes. The basic gist is here:

Templates: Young Advanced
Human Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) 12, favored class barbarian

HP: 12d12+96 (avg ~180, max 240), +36
BAB: +12
Base Fort: +8
Base Ref: +4
Base Will: +4
Dies at -23 HP, or -29 if raging; can stay awake below 0 HP

Attributes (lvl 1): 15/18/20/14/12/12
Attributes (lvl 12): 15/18/23/14/12/12

Feats:
HD 1: PF Toughness (equivalent to 3.5 Improved Toughness)
Human: Troll-blooded
Flaw (Slow, cuz Tommy's got short legs): Endurance
Flaw (Pathetic Wisdom, cuz following common sense don't make cents): Diehard
HD 3: Combat Expertise
HD 5: Stalwart
HD 7: Fast Healer
HD 9: Roll With It
HD 11: Improved Stalwart


Feats after lvl 11 should just be more Roll With It, for MOAR DAMAGE REDUCTION. Alternatively, you could pick up Raging Vitality (PF) and Reckless Rage (3.5) for more Con while raging (among other useful benefits).

If you don't like the idea of Tommy's toughness being so tied up with the boots, exchange Fast Healer for Raging Vitality instead of taking it later - another +2 Con while raging means more HP and dying at -31 HP, and continuing to rage while unconscious means Tommy won't accidentally die from the rage ending.

Rage Powers:
B2: Energy Resistance (Fire)
B4: Energy Resistance (Acid)
B6: ?
B8: Improved Damage Reduction
B10: Improved Damage Reduction
B12: Improved Damage Reduction


The lvl 6, and the lvl 14+, powers are up to you. I recommend either Guarded Stance/Rolling Dodge for the lvl 6/14 ones, get a nice sizable dodge bonus to AC vs melee/ranged attacks.

Cold Resistance 4
Acid/Fire Resistance 5 (while raging)

Regen 1 (fire/acid)
Move: Fast Healing 7 and +4 vs being moved until Tommy is moved

DR (No Rage/No CE): DR 8/- vs lethal, DR 14 vs nonlethal
DR (No Rage/CE): DR 16/- vs lethal, DR 22 vs nonlethal
DR (Rage/No CE): DR 11/- vs lethal, DR 17 vs nonlethal
DR (Rage/CE): DR 19/- vs lethal, DR 25 vs nonlethal



The templates make Tommy a kid who's really awesome for how old he is. Together they don't make him directly tougher, but by making it so he has to spent a lot fewer points on Dex/Int/Wis/Cha, it gives him more points for spending on Con.

The end result is that even at lvl 1, Tommy is ridiculously tough, with 15/18/20 physical attributes, AC 14 in his street clothes, HP 19, and Regen 1...and even if he goes below 0 HP, he's still got regen, he's still awake and fighting, and he dies at -20 HP. Oh, and he can rage for another 2 HP/HD. Every HD is 1d12+7 atm, btw.

At lvl 2, he gains DR 1/- (or DR 2/- if it's nonlethal...and because of regen, basically all damage Tommy takes is nonlethal, so he's gonna be reducing it a lot).

At lv 5, he's got DR 4/- nonlethal, has picked up fire/acid resistance 5 while raging, and can use Combat Expertise to take -2 attack/+2 DR, which stacks with the others.

At lvl 7, DR 6/nonlethal. He picks up Fast Healer and (hopefully) his boots (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/boots-of-the-earth), which will let Tommy spend a move action to give himself Fast Healing 1 6 as long as he's not moved...and unlike the regeneration, this isn't stopped by fire/acid.

At lvl 9, Tommy's Con has increased to 22, boosting a bunch of stuff. Tommy's DR increases by 2 all the time, by an additional 1 point when using Combat Expertise, and by an additional 1 point when raging. This means that if he's using Combat Expertise/Stalwart while raging, he has DR 10/- vs lethal, or DR 14/- vs nonlethal.

At lvl 12, Tommy has picked up his third and final point of extra DR while raging, has DR 6/- or DR 12/- for lethal/nonlethal, has gained another point of CE tradeoff, and now gains 2 DR for every point of CE AC bonus he would've gotten. He's also gained Greater Rage, so now he gains 3 HP/HD when raging.

So if this lvl 12 Tommy gets into a fight, and every blow that doesn't deal fire or acid damage has to deal more than 25 damage just to deal Tommy any nonlethal; every round, Tommy gains 1 HP back. So Tommy finally wins the fight at -28 HP, he has to pop a squat and sit there for a couple minutes before he's at full HP again.

[Afgncaap5]

Niiiice. Real nice stuff there. Sometimes even the tough gotta get going to break time after a workout. Pathfinder's still kinda iffy, but really worth considerin'.

I'm gettin' a lot of fun build ideas that *could* make Tommy a tough guy... Incarnate, Crusader, Barbarian w/urban skills insteada rage, straight up Rogue or Urban Ranger with Fighter sprinkled in, Invulnerable Rager, regular Commoner with Survivor and Human Paragon... maybe at higher levels in one of the aforementioned things adding in Street Fighter...

I might have to make a few sample things and figure out which *feels* the most like Tommy.

[Seerow]

Tommy is a Psychic Warrior. He blows a feat to pick up a psycrystal, and at the start of each day manifests Vigor and Share pain, both shared with the Psicrystal.

Share Pain with the Psicrystal is effectively +50% max HP. Feel free to stack Con and boost HP through whatever other means you care to use. Manifesting Vigor gets you effectively 10hp/lvl in Temporary HP that can be restored at any time as a standard action.

[Jack_Simth]

Tommy has some green in 'im, thanks to the Troll Blooded feat which gives him Regeneration 1. The prerequisite is Toughness, and Tommy is already known to be tough, so he doesn't even complain about having to take that feat.

Regeneration makes Tommy much tougher in actual combat -- unless someone tries to set him on fire, but then most 10-year-olds react poorly to being set on fire [citation needed].Also:
Diehard. Goes very well with regeneration. Not only does he get back up after getting riddled with bullets, he doesn't actually go down in the first place. Getting him some Fire and Acid resistance (rings will do in a pinch) is also a good idea.

[Goaty14]

It doesn't change your type, however. It's just that the devs apparently didn't think that any player would EVER want to play anything but a human, possibly with pointy ears or green skin.

No, it does.


DRAGONBORN RACIAL TRAITS
(...)

Humanoid (Dragonblood)


(Source (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b))

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No, it does.

(Source (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b))Maybe it does, but might you still count as a construct for bonus hp? After all:


For all effects related to race, a dragonborn is considered a dragon and a member of her original race.

Obviously you keep the [Living Construct] subtype and all that implies. It's weird that you could start out as, I dunno, a beholder, but you'd still be a humanoid, even though you're a scaly orb/sphere/thing with lots of eyes.

[Nifft]

Maybe it does, but might you still count as a construct for that? After all:

Obviously you keep the [Living Construct] subtype and all that implies. It's weird that you could start out as, I dunno, a beholder, but you'd still be a humanoid, even though you're a scaly orb/sphere/thing with lots of eyes.

The not-template retains your type, and also the not-template specifies that the end result is of type Humanoid.

There is a way to satisfy both conditions.

It's quite simple.

[Goaty14]

There is a way to satisfy both conditions.

Which is? It's heresy to have more than one type.


Maybe it does, but might you still count as a construct for bonus hp? After all:

No, it does not. The bonus HP is not a result of the living construct subtype. The bonus HP is also not a benefit that specifically pertains to being a warforged, unlike say, the Adamantine Body feat.

[Nifft]

Which is? It's heresy to have more than one type.
- The result MUST be of type Humanoid.
- The process must NOT change the input's type.

To validate both constraints, the input to the process MUST be of type Humanoid.

Done.

[Menzath]

You know what would make Tommy really tough? If he was a gheden(template from Dr mag 313)
It's a super tough template that can be added to any giant, humanoid(monsterous or otherwise). And though it does come with a level adjust of +1, it makes him really tough by giving him three feats, endurance, diehard, and toughness. But that's not all, he also gets a +4 racial bonus on intimidate. And wait, there's more. He also becomes immune to stunning, non-lethal damage, and death from massive damage.
And because he is so tough, he also is immune to fear, confusion and enegry drain, as well as getting 50% fortification (half chance to ignore sneak attack and crits).

Overall this makes him a tough guy, and with the addition of troll blooded it makes him super tough.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You know what would make Tommy really tough? If he was a gheden(template from Dr mag 313)
It's a super tough template that can be added to any giant, humanoid(monsterous or otherwise). And though it does come with a level adjust of +1, it makes him really tough by giving him three feats, endurance, diehard, and toughness. But that's not all, he also gets a +4 racial bonus on intimidate. And wait, there's more. He also becomes immune to stunning, non-lethal damage, and death from massive damage.
And because he is so tough, he also is immune to fear, confusion and enegry drain, as well as getting 50% fortification (half chance to ignore sneak attack and crits).

Overall this makes him a tough guy, and with the addition of troll blooded it makes him super tough.Aren't gheden, like, half-undead?

[Nifft]

You know what would make Tommy really tough? If he was a gheden(template from Dr mag 313)
It's a super tough template that can be added to any giant, humanoid(monsterous or otherwise). And though it does come with a level adjust of +1, it makes him really tough by giving him three feats, endurance, diehard, and toughness. But that's not all, he also gets a +4 racial bonus on intimidate. And wait, there's more. He also becomes immune to stunning, non-lethal damage, and death from massive damage.
And because he is so tough, he also is immune to fear, confusion and enegry drain, as well as getting 50% fortification (half chance to ignore sneak attack and crits).

Overall this makes him a tough guy, and with the addition of troll blooded it makes him super tough. Damn that's good synergy. He could be a Mongrelfolk Gheden (for a total of -8 Cha) and yet also take Troll-blooded at 1st level, with no need for a Flaw.


Aren't gheden, like, half-undead? He's just too tough to die all the way?

[liquidformat]

How about Tommy being a barbarian/primeval you can become a dire lion or megaraptor, what 10 year old boy doesn't want to be a big bad predator! Still take azure toughness and troll blooded but also endurance, self-sufficient and Steadfast Determination because Tommy is a kid who doesn't need anyone else's help and is tough in body and spirit! Did I mention he could be a dinosaur?!

[Afgncaap5]

I'm gonna say no to level adjustments, and a smaller, whispered no to bein' undead. It's off the table, but I'm glancin' at it, noddin', seein' that it's got some good stuff. Just seems a bit off brand for Tommy, ya know?

<EDIT>
Also, -8 to Cha? Geeze, guys, you want an okay Charisma for bein' a tough guy! Remember my note about the Intimidation score? Sure, take a hit to charisma here an' there but -8? Nuh-uh, not ol' Tommy.
</EDIT>


How about Tommy being a barbarian/primeval you can become a dire lion or megaraptor, what 10 year old boy doesn't want to be a big bad predator! Still take azure toughness and troll blooded but also endurance, self-sufficient and Steadfast Determination because Tommy is a kid who doesn't need anyone else's help and is tough in body and spirit! Did I mention he could be a dinosaur?!

All fine notes, but if Tommy's gonna be a dinosaur it's gonna be after he's already tough, and probably limited to once a season for big dramatic showdowns. Can't be a dino all the time, not when there's news ta sell.

[Menzath]

That level adjustemnt is harsh.
But the nice part is, you aren't undead. Your creature type doesn't change. Just one of your parents(somehow) was a mindless undead.

Maybe we can find other ways for Tommy to be tough, the search goes on.

[ATHATH]

Don't Dragonborn Mongrelfolk get a really high bonus to CON or something?

Can we use templates with LA?

[Afgncaap5]

The fewer the templates, the better. If this character has to start level 1 as someone who doesn't exist in the story yet because he's too tough, then the story itself will have collapsed under Tommy's toughness. Gotta be careful here!

[Segev]

Tommy is clearly a Werebear. The extra Animal HD add to his hp, obviously, and even a 10-year-old bear is going to be Large-sized, so he can meet the prerequisites, now, for War Hulk.

Sure, turning into a bear doesn't help you sell newspapers, but that's what Tommy's human form is for. Just don't try to stiff him. As a Werebear, he's LG and above intimidating you into leaving a tip you don't think he deserves, but don't think that makes him a pushover.

If you're using the Schroedinger's War Hulk rules, when he's human, he's on the small end of Medium and thus loses both the Str boosts and the inability to use int-based skills. IF you're not, then he never gets to use int-based skills, but hey, he's not trying to understand the stories in the papers, just sell 'em. And he's a lot tougher/stronger than he looks in human form.

[Rater202]

Uh, about the Gheddon...

Um, isn't there a rule somewhere that says that if you ever become immune to Nonlethal damage, regen stops working?

[Segev]

Uh, about the Gheddon...

Um, isn't there a rule somewhere that says that if you ever become immune to Nonlethal damage, regen stops working?

The only rule I know of that sounds similar is one that requires you to have a Con score to have Regen. (That's why undead have fast healing, instead, if they have anything of the sort.)

[Afgncaap5]

Werebear, eh? Might be tricky at level one, but the rest of it sounds pretty sweet. Definitely somethin' ta keep in mind!

[Jowgen]

I agree that Tommy definitely has Endurance. He ain't no wimp that can't even hike up to uncle Jim's lodge without taking a break, and he definitely can hold his breath longer than any other 10 year olds with assorted headwear.

Speaking of headwear, I in fact think Tommy is so tough he wears a headband along his newsie cap. A Headband of Ferocity (S&F p 77) to be exact. Not only makes him so tough that he can take 10 more nonlethal damage than any other (trollblooded) kid, but basically gives a better version of Diehard.

That frees up that feat slot up for Steadfast Determination, which lets his physical toughness beat back mental attacks and makes him too tough to ever fail saves against certain low-level Fort save things.

I also think that Tommy was playing... I mean, being tough... down by the docks once, cut his hand in the water and now he's got a bad ass Dukar Hand Coral (CoV) under his skin, meaning he can a) hold his breath even longer, b) recovers from his skateboarding bruises faster, and c) if other wanna be tough guys knock out his teeth they grow back (in case trollblooded doesn't already give regen, or atop it for even more healing factor).

Lastly and most importantly, Tommy is so tough he isn't afraid to eat or drink anything the other kids dare him to, so now he's got a Gutworm symbiont (FF p. 220). That gives +2 Con, no-fatigue rage at will, and 1/day negates a poison. Downside is he's got to eat twice as much as normal every day (tough guys are known to eat a lot of stuff anyway) and it directly off-sets Endurance. But it makes him so much tougher.

[Rater202]

Anyway, if Tommy's a Wearbear, he might want to look into a few levels of Warshaper as soon as he's able.

A one level dip makes him immune to stunning and critical hits, which in turn makes him immune to sneak attack and similar sourses of extra damage(I'm too touugh fer stabbin' me'n the back through da heart to hurt dat much) as well as let him both make his prexisting natural weapons(the bite and claws he has a bear) one size bigger as well as shapeshift as many additional natural weapons as he wants/the GM will let him get away with.

Now, that second ability doesn't necessarily make him tougher by default, but it does give him more effective and numerous ways to prove his toughness in a scrap and, going outside strict RAW, I'd certainly give a Wearbear with jaws and claws a size too big, horns like a bull's, a pair of dragon wings, two extra crushing arms, a maosito's needle-mouth, a wasp's stinger, an eagle's talons, a crushing Tail, and a dozen horrid tentacles coming out of it in unnatural places looking for all the world like it's gonna kick some ass a bonus on an intimiidation check.

A second level would give him +4 STR and +4 Con for free. Not as a bonus but as direct enhancements to the abillities--IT's basically just free bigness and toughness.

A third level's not much for toughness, unless you think being able to punch/natural weapon people from an extra five feat away is tough, but if he takes it to four he gets fast/healing 2 which could be useful if somebody sets him on fire or he finds that regen 1's just not enough to get back on his feat after a scrap. It also makes him harder to knock than he already was, and a six second breather and a bit of the ole thinkering can gtet him an extra ten HP.

Level fives a bit of a let down though--he'd just be able to bear or hybrid as a movement instead of a standard action, so the last level can be skipped if he's not interested.

It's also should be noted that there's nothing saying that Tommy has to be a stadard Werebear. The Lycanthrope template just says to use the stats of an animal.

There are three kinds of Bear in the Monster Manual: The black bear has thre HD by default but can be advanced to 5, the Brown starts at 5 but can go to ten, ad the mighty Polar Bear starts at 8 and can be advanced up to 12. Tommy could easily be a fully advanced WerePolar Bear inwhich case he'd also be entitled to two extra feats over the normal Polar Bear--one at 9 HD and one at 12--from his bear side.

There are also a couple of templates, Magebred being the one that most comes to mind, that can be applied to an animal which doensn't change their type.

If Tommy's Werebear part is a Fully Advanced Magebred Polar BEar, not only would her get Polar BEar Traits, four extra hit dice and two extra feats not counted in the base Polar Bear Stats, he ocould get +4 natural armor, an additional +4 Con, +2 STR, +2 Dex and his choice of Alertness, Athletic, Endurance, Improved Natural Attack, or Multiattack as a bonus feat.

The Horrd Animal Template similarly buffs an animal without changing it's type, but can only be applied to dire animals so Tommy's therianthorpy would have to be reworked a degree to take advantage of that. If it cuold be done(Dire Wolf is what comes to mind, as it is large size and can be advnanced up to 18 HD, though that would make him Chaotic Evil,) that would be giving him a free imroved natural weapon on every natural weapon he has(which if he taks Warshaper levels, is a lot), immunity to acid, +5 nat armor, +4 con, and any primary natural weapon he has or makes would deal up to +5d6 acid damage, depending on his final HD total.

Are there any other templates that can be applied to an animal without changing it's type that can be used to buff the animal whose stats we'd be using for Tommy's wereform?

Of ourcse, those template stat boosts would only apply in animal/hybrid form, but I figure that's when he's doing most of his tough-being anyway.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Don't forget that if the template is applied via the curse of lycanthropy spell, it shouldn't grant LA or otherwise raise his ECL, unless you think casting permanency on someone, a bard's inspire greatness, or using a (greater) collar of umbral metamorphosis would.

[Rater202]

Don't forget that if the template is applied via the curse of lycanthropy spell, it shouldn't grant LA or otherwise raise his ECL, unless you think casting permanency on someone, a bard's inspire greatness, or using a (greater) collar of umbral metamorphosis would.

This is true, however, that implicitly gives Tommy the aflicted version of the Template, which is 5 points of DR less and... Honestly, were is Tommy gonna find a Fully Advanced Horrid Magebred Dire Warwolf with the exact combination of MAgebred abillity and feat choices that he wants to get the blood for the spell from? It'd be rude to make the cleric get it and Tommy's not gonna have much time to look for one wit all them papers he's gotta sell.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

This is true, however, that implicitly gives Tommy the aflicted version of the Template, which is 5 points of DR less and... Honestly, were is Tommy gonna find a Fully Advanced Horrid Magebred Dire Warwolf with the exact combination of MAgebred abillity and feat choices that he wants to get the blood for the spell from? It'd be rude to make the cleric get it and Tommy's not gonna have much time to look for one wit all them papers he's gotta sell.Why do you think I originally suggested T-rex?

Seriously, how many animals are cooler and tougher than T-rexes?

[Nifft]

Don't forget that if the template is applied via the curse of lycanthropy spell, it shouldn't grant LA or otherwise raise his ECL, unless you think casting permanency on someone, a bard's inspire greatness, or using a (greater) collar of umbral metamorphosis would.

Inspire Greatness should totally impose an LA, just so low-op players can more easily recognize how worthless it is.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Inspire Greatness should totally impose an LA, just so low-op players can more easily recognize how worthless it is.Even if it gives you feats two levels early? Including epic feats? Remember the benefits that gaining HD grants for any non-mindless creature. And anyone with Practiced Spellcaster or Practiced Manifester gains extra CLs or MLs. With proper use of things like psychic reformation manifested at the right time, you could totally qualify for PrCs early and whatnot.

[Jack_Simth]

Uh, about the Gheddon...

Um, isn't there a rule somewhere that says that if you ever become immune to Nonlethal damage, regen stops working?

Not exactly. It was a ruling... like a Rules of the Game article or a FAQ entry. Was never really official 3.5.

[Nifft]

Even if it gives you feats two levels early? Including epic feats? Remember the benefits that gaining HD grants for any non-mindless creature. And anyone with Practiced Spellcaster or Practiced Manifester gains extra CLs or MLs. With proper use of things like psychic reformation manifested at the right time, you could totally qualify for PrCs early and whatnot.

Has a DM let you get away with that?

What feat was worth using in this manner? (Not the various Item Creation feats, those seem to need to be available for ~8 consecutive hours at least.)

[Rater202]

Why do you think I originally suggested T-rex?

Seriously, how many animals are cooler and tougher than T-rexes?

A Gaint, spiky, armor-plated wolf with super strength and toughness that's immune to acid and has an acid bite?

Hell, if we wanna go crazy, Beast Of Xvim leaves type alone and can be applied to animals. Throwing that in with the Magebred, Horrid, and Warbeast means that the Full Advanced Dire Wolf we're using for Tommy's "Base Animal" means that it has one more hit dice for Tommy to inherit, all of its nat weapons are up one die type, frightful presence, the ability to permanently gain a hit die by eating something it killed(so Tommy's got a fast way to make himself even tougher,) the ability to make his attacks extra tough against Goody Goodies(Smite Good once a day,) fear immunity, poison immunity, damage reduction 10 against magic(technically against +3 weapons but it would go down to magic in general in the conversion to 3.5), and sixty feet of darkvision.

However, this would raise the Wolf's intelligence to three, which might automatically change its type to 3. I don't remember if that's a general rule or a specific thing in some cases--it doesn't say that an animal becomes a magical beast in the template, but...

[JNAProductions]

Arctic Dragonborn Mongrelfolk rocks a +8 to Con. No LA.

[Jack_Simth]

What feat was worth using in this manner? (Not the various Item Creation feats, those seem to need to be available for ~8 consecutive hours at least.)
Warforged Bard cohort with Words of Creation? 4 bonus hit dice means you'd always get at least one feat, which means any item creation feat during downtime. And Warforged are tireless.

Extend Spell during your buff routine?

What does happen if you have a metamagic feat while preparing spells, but don't have the feat later, as a prepared spellcaster?

I've never explored this with a DM, mind, but there's a few ideas.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Yeah, I think Crusader is probably the toughest class for a humanoid. That's a good idea.

But it's complicated, and the implied martial discipline might not fit the flavor of the streetwise punk kid with an attitude.

I disagree on the grounds that Crusader is explicitly the least disciplined ToB class. If you ignore the flavor text and look at mechanics, they’re tough-as-nails Cha based scrappers who get their maneuvers at random in battle as the idea comes to them. Tommy could definitely do worse than being so tough his injuries wait their turn to bother him and his sheer grit and chutzpah get added to all his saving throws

[Nifft]

Warforged Bard cohort with Words of Creation? 4 bonus hit dice means you'd always get at least one feat, which means any item creation feat during downtime. And Warforged are tireless. "I shall call him Autotune."


What does happen if you have a metamagic feat while preparing spells, but don't have the feat later, as a prepared spellcaster? When you cast a Metamagic spell, the Metamagic feat applies to the spell.

If you don't have the feat, you presumably can't cast the spell.

Items containing spells with Metamagic feats have a special note that you don't need to have the Metamagic feat to use the item -- all other uses of Metamagic feats presumably do require that you have the feat to benefit from the feat.

[Rater202]

Arctic Dragonborn Mongrelfolk rocks a +8 to Con. No LA.

Is there way to make them large sized or larger permanently as an inherent part of their being?

If Tommy's permanently Large Sized as a natural part of who he is, then we can apply some of th advancement and template Cheese to a Dire Bear, which has a maximum of 36 Hit dice but becomes huge sized at 17. Then it'd be a Spikey, Armor plated, Acid immune, acid spewing super strong and tough bear the size of a T-Rex. And with as many hit dice as a T-Rex can get at it's average size. T-Rex's can get more HD when fully advanced, but at 37 HD it hits Gargantuan size and thus Tommy would need to be at least Huge to qualify.

[JNAProductions]

Is there way to make them large sized or larger permanently as an inherent part of their being?

If Tommy's permanently Large Sized as a natural part of who he is, then we can apply some of th advancement and template Cheese to a Dire Bear, which has a maximum of 36 Hit dice but becomes huge sized at 17. Then it'd be a Spikey, Armor plated, Acid immune, acid spewing super strong and tough bear the size of a T-Rex. And with as many hit dice as a T-Rex can get at it's average size. T-Rex's can get more HD when fully advanced, but at 37 HD it hits Gargantuan size and thus Tommy would need to be at least Huge to qualify.

Not that I know of off-hand.

I just know my Con-boosting LA 0 races due to my love of DFA.

[Jack_Simth]

"I shall call him Autotune."
Well, if we really want to get TO with him, we can level up in isolation during down time. We just need to get a Wight under our thumb.

Step 1: Have Warforged Bard inspire greatness on us.
Step 2: Have Wight give us exactly one negative level.
Step 3: Wait the 24 hours.
Step 4: Voluntarily fail the save, so the negative level results in real level loss.
Step 5: Have Warforged Bard shut up (he's been performing for over 24 hours at this point; any tune will get annoying by that time)

What happens? Well, you've got two bonus hit dice. The wight gives you a Negative Level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) . When that turns into Level Loss (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#levelLoss), you look at the clause: "The victim’s experience point total is immediately set to the midpoint of the previous level." Here's the thing... you had two bonus levels. X + 2 - 1 = X+1. When the bard finally stops performing, you've had your XP total set to the midpoint of a level you didn't have. Which is higher than your original level.

Words of Creation doesn't help much with this - there's a little-known rule that prevents someone from leveling twice at once. You'd end up exactly 1 xp short of two levels up.

[Rater202]

Remind me? Are there rules for or against applying the same template to a single character multible times?

I mean, I know that someone who was half-fiend twice over would, at best, only be getting double stat mods so it's not worth it, but is that a thing that's against the rules?

Becuase I just thought of something mean we could do with this build.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Has a DM let you get away with that?I see. So inspire greatness sucks by RAW because your DM(s) nerfed it.

Wait, why does it suck for everyone but you, again?

[Goaty14]

You'd end up exactly 1 xp short of two levels up.

So then you go shiv a kobold or something and level up?


Remind me? Are there rules for or against applying the same template to a single character multible times?

I mean, you could be a half-half-fiend, but the bonuses would all be from the same source and not stack.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I mean, you could be a half-half-fiend, but the bonuses would all be from the same source and not stack.Note that stacking rules only apply to bonuses and penalties, so this may not be apropos, depending on the abilities. Like, adding multiple lycanthropy templates from different animals would still apply the HD, since they aren't bonuses.

[liquidformat]

Words of Creation doesn't help much with this - there's a little-known rule that prevents someone from leveling twice at once. You'd end up exactly 1 xp short of two levels up.

Step 6: prepare the sacrificial chicken so it may give its chicken life for you to level up once more shortly after the original ill gotten gains of a level and most of a second!

[Heliomance]

Why do you think I originally suggested T-rex?

Seriously, how many animals are cooler and tougher than T-rexes?

Triceratops >>> T-Rex. Fight me.

[Rater202]

Note that stacking rules only apply to bonuses and penalties, so this may not be apropos, depending on the abilities. Like, adding multiple lycanthropy templates from different animals would still apply the HD, since they aren't bonuses.

So say, if we made Tommy a Werewolf using the stats of a fully advanced Horrid Magebred Dire Warwolf, used te fact that Tommy would be a humanoid who is large sized in two of his true forms to qualify for him to also be a werebea using the stats of a fully advanced Horrid Magebred Dire Warbear, then use the fact that he'd have a true form that's naturally Huge sized to make him a Wererex using the stats of a Fully Advanced Magebed WarTyranosaurus(can't apply the Horrid Template, as T-Rex's aren't dire animals.)

This would give Tommy the abillity to turn into a giant spikey, armor covered wolf with acid powers, a bear the size of a t-rex that's spikey and armor plated with acid powers, or an exceptionally large and hearty T-Rex, as well as same sized hybrids of those and human, gaining the stat bonuses of each individual form as he assumes them.

This means that his toughness is slightly variable, but it also means that he's got 54 HD from T-Rex, 36 from the Dire Bear, and 18 from the Dire Wolf for a total of 108 Animal Hit Dice.

Hell, why stop at three? Lets' add a fully advanced Dire Magebred Horrid Wolverine to th mix(Magebred and Warbeast go on everything to mamizime the stats of each form, Horrid goes on everything dire to ensure maximum access to it's benifets) for another 15 HD(113 total,) the same optomized Dire Weasel for it's stuff and 9 more HD(122 total,) a Perfectdire Tiger for another 48(170 total,) A Dire Shark for 54,(224 total,) Dire Rat for another 6(230 total,) another 24 from Dire Lion (254,) a, like everything else, horrid magebred warbeast dire boar for another dor another 21 animal hit dice(275,) Nine more hit dice from a fully empowered Dire Badger, the proportionatly toughest of all animals, for another 9 HD(263,) and another 15 from a Fully Advanced all three animal boosting templates Dire Ape for a total of 278 animal hit dice. Lets throw in a Magebed, War Beast Giant Crocodile for anothr 14 HD for 292, a Mage Bred, War Beast regular wolf for another 6 HD from full advancement for 298...

And I don't know an animal that, fully advanced, only has two HD. Can anyone think of a way to bring Tommy up to a solid 300d8 racial Hit Dice?

Regardless, Tommy's so tough that he can turn into the toughest possible version of the world's toughest animals.

[liquidformat]

Triceratops >>> T-Rex. Fight me.

That took me longer than I care to admit to figure out you were not trying to say T-rex eats Triceratops....

[Menzath]

Pssh 300hd, we can top that. Start adding the Titanic template from elh to animals and go nuts.

[Rater202]

Pssh 300hd, we can top that. Start adding the Titanic template from elh to animals and go nuts.

Ah ah ah, we need at least one Large Animal and at least one Huge form to give Tommy Gargantuan Were forms, and while Garantuan template would increase the Hit Dice of some of the naimals, the template very clearly says "increase hit dice to 25," and changes size to gargantuan. It can also only be applies to medium or smaller animals, so at most we'r eputting it on the Dire Rat and the regular Wolf, so that's 336 total hit dice.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That took me longer than I care to admit to figure out you were not trying to say T-rex eats Triceratops....Each of those >s is a nom.

Also, you could always use entomanthropy (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a) (the vermin version of lycanthropy) and a warbeast devastation beetle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/devastationVermin.htm).

[Nifft]

I see. So inspire greatness sucks by RAW because your DM(s) nerfed it.

Wait, why does it suck for everyone but you, again?

Huh, looks like I hit a sore point, since you apparently don't want to answer. I'll re-phrase, maybe that will help.

Have you actually played this game before, in real life, with other humans who aren't yourself?

When you did that, did the DM allow you to use any theory optimization tricks?

[Menzath]

Ah ah ah, we need at least one Large Animal and at least one Huge form to give Tommy Gargantuan Were forms, and while Garantuan template would increase the Hit Dice of some of the naimals, the template very clearly says "increase hit dice to 25," and changes size to gargantuan. It can also only be applies to medium or smaller animals, so at most we'r eputting it on the Dire Rat and the regular Wolf, so that's 336 total hit dice.

No love for the birds? We can put it on owls, Ravens, vultures, and Hawks. They all eat meat and are animals and fit the requisite size.

Also can't forget about the sea dwellers, octopi, squid, sharks, pirana, and all the odd aquatic animals(and Dino's) they added in stormwrack.

And we are also forgetting some of the legendary animals from mm2, unless you update those with the creature of legend template that makes them outsiders, blegh.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Huh, looks like I hit a sore point, since you apparently don't want to answer. I'll re-phrase, maybe that will help.

Have you actually played this game before, in real life, with other humans who aren't yourself?

When you did that, did the DM allow you to use any theory optimization tricks?*Rolleyes* What the hell are you on about? This isn't an argument, it's completely changing the subject. This isn't even TO, since gaining the benefits of gaining hit dice is perfectly reasonable when you, y'know, gain hit dice. Your DM(s) nerfed it, apparently. That doesn't mean everyone's does. And weren't you just complaining about inspire greatness being awful and useless? Not using the nerf you apparently use that makes it useless doesn't mean it's T.O. Just don't use it for early entry tricks. Voila.

And yes, I've actually played in actual games with actual people, though it's been a couple of years, since most people play 4e around here. Not that it has anything to do with this conversation at all.

[Nifft]

*Rolleyes* Ah, you're a roll-player.


What the hell are you on about? Well, I asked you a civil question -- "Has any real DM let you get away with this trick?" -- and you've been trying to bluster your way into not answering. So I'm trying to re-phrase and get an answer out of you. Instead, I get more hostility, since apparently that's your thing.


This isn't an argument, it's completely changing the subject. Being able to use things in real games is actually on-topic for those things. Being dumb in ways that get books thrown at you will actually be counter-productive to using a thing in a real game. If you talk about a thing as if it's expected to be permitted, but it is not in fact ever permitted, then you're being unhelpful.


This isn't even TO, since gaining the benefits of gaining hit dice is perfectly reasonable when you, y'know, gain hit dice. Your DM(s) nerfed it, apparently. That doesn't mean everyone's does. I don't think it's normal to give feats when the PCs get high on Inspire Greatness. I think that's unusual. I think most DMs give exactly what the rule says, and nothing more:

A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s), the commensurate number of temporary hit points (apply the target’s Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice), a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls, and a +1 competence bonus on Fortitude saves. The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependant.
I mean why are the hit dice hit points also temporary hit points? Real hit dice don't give temporary hit points. Why don't these hit dice have good / bad save(s)? They seem to come with a competence bonus to one save, not a base save improvement.

They don't act like real hit dice. There's no reason to think they give a feat, and the ability's text doesn't say they give a feat -- just that they count for the purpose of spells like Blasphemy which care about hit dice.


And yes, I've actually played in actual games with actual people, though it's been a couple of years, since most people play 4e around here. Not that it has anything to do with this conversation at all. Again, the question was whether a DM has allowed you to get away with the thing you're pretending is normal, but which seems pretty abnormal.

And I notice you're still failing to answer the original question: Has a DM let you get away with that?

Now I'm curious why you don't want to answer. Did your gaming group fall apart / kick you out because you kept trying to push these tricks? Is that why you're so invested in getting other people to use them?

[Rater202]

No love for the birds? We can put it on owls, Ravens, vultures, and Hawks. They all eat meat and are animals and fit the requisite size.

Also can't forget about the sea dwellers, octopi, squid, sharks, pirana, and all the odd aquatic animals(and Dino's) they added in stormwrack.

And we are also forgetting some of the legendary animals from mm2 unless you update those with the creature of legend template that makes them outsiders, blegh.

Oh, I was only including it on the ones already in the build I suggested that it would be cost effective on.

If we're just throwing every carnivorous or omnivorous animal on him for the hit dize then sure, toss it on all of the medium or smaller ones there are,but only if they don't already advance to higher than 25 HD--there comes a point where being able to turn into yet another gargantuan animal is worth less than having a couple of extra hit dice in terms of how tough Tommy is.

I was going for 300 becuase that's a nice, big, round number. Looks good...

Though if we're giving him ten levels of Warhulk and 4 levels of Warshaper then...

side note, those classes actually synergize pretty well, especially on a large-sized lycanthrope. Morphic Reach gives you an extra five feat of reach on all melee attacks and a Warhulk who maxes out hits every enemy in a space her threatens with every attack he makes. Morphic Weapon means he has as many natural weapons as he wants/can get away with and that the ones he has naturally count as one size bigger, so he can make lots of attacks, meaning he's hitting a lot of people a lot of times each round...

And if we're just going freaking crazy with Were templates, well there's this (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a). Lots of those monsterous vermin are aplicable for the Titanic Template, so the ones whose natural advancement doesn't bring them up past 25 HD can have that slammed on them, though note that Vermin can't qualifiy for the Magebred, Warbeast, or Horrid Templates.

[Menzath]

I have to say, I like the bard cohort idea. And if you are getting close to leveling, maybe Tommy hires some extra hands similar to his cohort to help inspire him to sell papers harder, since the bonus hd from greatness is an untyped bonus, multiple sources of it should stack, with 9 more similar bards with your cohort that would bump your hd to 20+ so you could qualify for epic feats.
The ones that give Dr 3/- and fast healing would be my picks, but they require con of 21 and 25 respectively.

But, let's say no template cheese gets into this, and Tommy really is just a normal, yet very tough, kid.

I think being an azurin human, with azure toughness and troll blooded would be a good start, with the class being a little up in the air,

I was leaning towards dragon shaman actually for the toughness aura(or which ever one) that gets you fast healing at half hp or less.

But, thats meh. Why mimic a dragon, your way to tough for that. And you are good at talking to people and getting them to buy more papers. So to me that says binder.
Your so tough you convince beings to either make you tougher, or to help sell more papers. That works well with your warforged bard cohort, he might be a little slow, but notices your toughness and often praises it, and he's great for carrying around more stacks of paper to sell, in fact he can do it all day since he never gets tired.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, I asked you a civil question -- "Has any real DM let you get away with this trick?" -- and you've been trying to bluster your way into not answering. So I'm trying to re-phrase and get an answer out of you. Instead, I get more hostility, since apparently that's your thing.You nerf the RAW of the item in question and then complain about how how said item is worthless. Then I point out why it's not (and why it's potentially abusable), after which you ignore it and change the subject. My ignoring your change in subject isn't unwarranted hostility. It's pointing out that you're changing the subject and are ignoring the fact that the rules say that you gain certain things when you gain a hit die.

Is there anything anywhere in any of the rules that say that temporary hit dice don't also grant feats while they're in effect? Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back up the idea that they don't, aside from the fact that inspire greatness doesn't mention one way or another? Because as far as I can tell, the specifics of inspire greatness aren't all-encompassing; they just give details on what you get for each hit die (like the HD size, the fact that the hp are temp hp, and that you gain bonuses to saves and BAB [which I assume are replacements for regular HD-based saving throw boosts and regular BAB, though that's not exactly a given]). It certainly doesn't say anything about not functioning like other HD function. One function of which is feats.


Being able to use things in real games is actually on-topic for those things. Being dumb in ways that get books thrown at you will actually be counter-productive to using a thing in a real game. If you talk about a thing as if it's expected to be permitted, but it is not in fact ever permitted, then you're being unhelpful.So are you. You ignored the point and went off on a tangent instead of dealing with the points I brought up.


I don't think it's normal to give feats when the PCs get high on Inspire Greatness. I think that's unusual. I think most DMs give exactly what the rule says, and nothing more: I mean why are the hit dice hit points also temporary hit points? Real hit dice don't give temporary hit points. Why don't these hit dice have good / bad save(s)? They seem to come with a competence bonus to one save, not a base save improvement.Just because a DM might (but not necessarily will) rule otherwise doesn't mean the rules don't function that way. Remember, The rules for HD grant certain things. Those things must be assumed to be in effect unless inspire greatness says otherwise, since that's pretty much how the game works. If Ability A says you gain Effect A and then lists the differences from the standard Effect A, then you have to assume you actually gain all of Effect A (sans differences), else the game would break down because nobody would know how anything works.


They don't act like real hit dice. There's no reason to think they give a feat, and the ability's text doesn't say they give a feat -- just that they count for the purpose of spells like Blasphemy which care about hit dice.But they ARE hit dice, and function as such except as noted. Else they wouldn't be hit dice, would they? There's no mention of blasphemy in there, so why are you assuming they would be effective against it?

It's because you assume you gain all the benefits of hit dice except as noted under the inspire greatness ability. Because that's how things work. So why would you assume that other benefits of hit dice, such as the 1/3 level feats, don't come into effect?


Again, the question was whether a DM has allowed you to get away with the thing you're pretending is normal, but which seems pretty abnormal.I've never played a bard, so this situation has never come up. However, I've played with DMs that allowed feats for psicrystals, which they very clearly gain via RAW, even though it's never explicitly called out. Rather like this, in fact.

Inspire greatness grants HD to a non-mindless creatures, which always gain feats when they gain hit dice at 1, 3, 6, 9, etc.

Psicrystals gain real construct hit dice and are non-mindless, so they also gain hit dice at 1, 3, 6, 9, etc.

So the situation is somewhat analogous; it's just that that particular situation has not arisen.


And I notice you're still failing to answer the original question: Has a DM let you get away with that?That wasn't the original question. The original question was "why do you think that inspire greatness sucks when it grants you extra HD with all that implies?"

You're the one changing the subject.


Now I'm curious why you don't want to answer. Did your gaming group fall apart / kick you out because you kept trying to push these tricks? Is that why you're so invested in getting other people to use them?I didn't want to get side-tracked because you're trying to draw attention away from the fact that you're making assumptions based on houserules.

[edit] This whole conversation is getting off-topic. Let's stop, for Tommy's sake.

[Afgncaap5]

Fellas, fellas, hey... some of these requests are good, but are veering more toward bein' Radical than bein' Tough. Now I ain't sayin' that these are mutually exclusive things, but Tough should be the emphasis, not the secondary benefit a' Radicalness.


Triceratops >>> T-Rex. Fight me.

See, Heliomance is on the trolley. T-rice out toughs T-Rex, even if T-Rex wins the radness test.

[noob]

Tommy can be a were Tommy because there is nothing tougher than Tommy.
Yes lycanthropy mentions animals but it does not specify that humans are excluded: humans do not have the animal type but would definitively be from the animal kingdom.
So Tommy is then a were Tommy and then since lycanthropy does not says you can not catch the same kind of lycanthropy multiple times then Tommy can be a were Tommy as many times as he can infect himself.(I do not know if it grants any extra bonus)

[Rater202]

Fellas, fellas, hey... some of these requests are good, but are veering more toward bein' Radical than bein' Tough. Now I ain't sayin' that these are mutually exclusive things, but Tough should be the emphasis, not the secondary benefit a' Radicalness.



See, Heliomance is on the trolley. T-rice out toughs T-Rex, even if T-Rex wins the radness test.

But you can't be a Were Triceratops, unless you've got some way to make it carnivourous while leaving it's type as animal.

And the radicalness of being a Were Everything is a secondary ffect of how tough having hundreds of hit dice makes you.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

But you can't be a Were Triceratops, unless you've got some way to make it carnivourous while leaving it's type as animal.

And the radicalness of being a Were Everything is a secondary ffect of how tough having hundreds of hit dice makes you.PAO the triceratops into a giant, then infect it with tyrannosaur lycanthropy?

[Rater202]

PAO the triceratops into a giant, then infect it with tyrannosaur lycanthropy?

Unless Tommy is a Triceratops, this completely fils to help us in our goal.

How much Green is in Tommy, anyway? We know he's Troll Blooded, but can he maybe even be Hal5 Troll? Fast Healing five, some stat boosts, his type is still dragon, and techncially he still qualfies for Troll Blooded.

[Nifft]

Fellas, fellas, hey... some of these requests are good, but are veering more toward bein' Radical than bein' Tough. Good point. The fact that Maxi is being deceptive about what Inspire Greatness actually does isn't congruent to Tommy the tough.


humans do not have the animal type but would definitively be from the animal kingdom. Tommy might be from an autonomous anarcho-syndicalist collective which eschews kings, and thus isn't from a kingdom at all.


It's too bad you can't be a Were-Warforged.

But you could go the other way, and be a Warforged Wildshape Ranger -> Master of Many Forms, and then Wild Shape into the form of a humanoid, and that's who Tommy is -- the 12-hour-duration wild shape of a cybernetic organism. Truly a robot in disguise, full of determination and grit (and probably motor oil) -- though this would require starting at much higher than level 1, so it's probably better for an NPC than for a PC you intend to play from level 1.

[noob]

Good point. The fact that Maxi is being deceptive about what Inspire Greatness actually does isn't congruent to Tommy the tough.

Tommy might be from an autonomous anarcho-syndicalist collective which eschews kings, and thus isn't from a kingdom at all.


It's too bad you can't be a Were-Warforged.

But you could go the other way, and be a Warforged Wildshape Ranger -> Master of Many Forms, and then Wild Shape into the form of a humanoid, and that's who Tommy is -- the 12-hour-duration wild shape of a cybernetic organism. Truly a robot in disguise, full of determination and grit (and probably motor oil) -- though this would require starting at much higher than level 1, so it's probably better for an NPC than for a PC you intend to play from level 1.

because being made of metal is both metal and tough?
sorry I used the wrong term I meant humans are from the animal reign in the categorization of polymorph any object

[Nifft]

because being made of metal is both metal and tough?
Yeah exactly! Having access to the Adamantine Body feat is very tough, and very metal, and yet also very Warforged-only.


sorry I used the wrong term I meant humans are from the animal reign in the categorization of polymorph any object
You were using words in a punny way, so I also used words in a punny way.

Obviously the lycanthrope rules don't mean animal in the way you used it, and obviously the PAO rules don't mean kingdom in the way I used it. I thought they were equivalently punny.

[Fizban]

So I've ctr+f'd through the thread and really? No one's mentioned the Masters of the Wild extra toughness feats? Dwarf's Toughness, Giant's Toughness, and Dragon's Toughness are all repeatable- you can literally spend every general feat you have on Toughness.

And no mention of Roll With It (from Savage Species), the feat which gives you DR/- and requires only Con and Toughness. Easy to hit 1st level if you're considering Mongrelfolk- who despite their artwork supposedly pass as completely normal humanoids and thus work great for a street gang's tough guy. And also repeatable.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ever feel like Kool-Aid Manning your way through your opponents' bodies? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863)

Note that you only really need a couple of levels of monk for that. And warforged makes the build MUCH tougher than it has any right to be. Also, note that the hardness is nowhere near as much as it could be, but it's still really, really high.

Does having hardness in the high double-digits (or more) and being able to solo elder evils as a monk count as toughness, as far as Tommy's concerned?

[Menzath]

So, a monk 1/duid 9 would be pretty ridiculous.

So it all starts with the spell sandform, which says you can still cast spells so long as you were holding the materials before hand.
As a monk our weapon(body) counts as a manufactured weapon for spells or effects that can enchance them.

So, for a spell that enchanes our body, we can count as an object.

Once sandformed, we use fuse sand, giving us hardness 3 and (additional?) 5hp per inch of thickness.

Now we are a block of sandstone. And as such qualify as being a free standing structure(pillar), and can be targeted by earth fast, a permanent spell that sets our hardness to 10, and doubles our hit points.


The next two spells only last 1hr/lvl, and not sure if they can be made permanent, but this is repeatable so no worries.

First is fortify metal or stone, which doubles our hardness, and total hp.
Next is augment object, which doubles our hardness and hp.

So going off a "hearty" child who most likely is 6" across at widest, that would give us 120 bonus hp(not including our own tripled hp) and hardness of 30.
(I'm doing doubling like they do for crit threat range, and making them additive)

That would indeed make us super tough.

And if we enlarge ourselves before this, our hp from thickness goes up immensly as well.
Also if you could have a high level arcane caster, cast hardening on you after earth fast, that would bump your hardness to truly tough levels.

Edit-messed up on one of the doublings.
2nd edit- too many doublings, can't keep them straight.

[Nifft]

So, a monk 1/duid 9 would be pretty ridiculous.

So it all starts with the spell sandform, which says you can still cast spells so long as you were holding the materials before hand.
As a monk our weapon(body) counts as a manufactured weapon for spells or effects that can enchance them.

So, for a spell that enchanes our body, we can count as an object.

Once sandformed, we use fuse sand, giving us hardness 3 and (additional?) 5hp per inch of thickness.

Now we are a block of sandstone. And as such qualify as being a free standing structure(pillar), and can be targeted by earth fast, a permanent spell that sets our hardness to 10, and doubles our hit points.


The next two spells only last 1hr/lvl, and no sure if they can be made permanent, but this is repeatable so no worries.

First is fortify metal or stone, which doubles our hardness, and total hp.
Next is augment object, which doubles our hardness and hp.

So going off a "hearty" child who most likely is 6" across at widest, that would give us 240 bonus hp(not including our own tripled hp) and hardness of 30.

That would indeed make us super tough.

And if we enlarge ourselves before this, our hp from thickness goes up immensly as well.
Also if you could have a high level arcane caster, cast hardening on you after earth fast, that would bump your hardness to truly tough levels.

This is Tommy's best friend, Sandy.

Sandy is (of course) a tomboy.

[Segev]

This is Tommy's best friend, Sandy.

Sandy is (of course) a tomboy.

Tommy doesn't realize this, or he'd never hang out with somebody so untough as a girl. Things will, of course, get complicated as they get older.

[Nifft]

Tommy doesn't realize this, or he'd never hang out with somebody so untough as a girl. Things will, of course, get complicated as they get older.

Tommy: "But they said she's a tomboy! That means she's double tough!"

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Tommy doesn't realize this, or he'd never hang out with somebody so untough as a girl.Taylor 'Queen of Escalation/Destroyer of Gods' Hebert: "Hello, Tommy."

Tommy: "Oh, ****."

[Segev]

Taylor 'Queen of Escalation/Destroyer of Gods' Hebert: "Hello, Tommy."

Tommy: "Oh, ****."

Ah, his first precocious crush.

I mean, not only is she a badass, but she controls BUGS. How cool is that?!