The reason for the bet

[RatElemental]

I was thinking of the bet Loki engineered between Hel and Thor, and I think I might have stumbled onto a potential motive.

Loki teaches his followers to hate the undead. (Including clerics) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1107.html)

Mortals produce something that the gods need to survive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html)

Hel has been unable to participate in any godsmoots until now. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html)

Loki was the first to recognize a chance at making this world last indefinitely. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html)

To sum it up, Loki set up a system where Hel has no followers, intentionally produces followers who will go kill any she does get, and she has no say in the matter (or any others) anymore. She does get a trickle of souls thanks to the wager, but if the world goes on long enough like this, dwarves may very well cease to exist via that natural selection thing Thor keeps hearing about. And even if they don't then in the long run Hel will be outpaced by Thor and will have to pay up when the world finally does end, with whatever meager soul power she can muster.

Was Loki trying to kill Hel by starving her to death?

[thereaper]

Now that we know that there have been countless worlds before this, the most likely explanation is that Loki was trying to teach his daughter a valuable lesson about the importance of clerics that would hurt her momentarily, but in the long run have almost no effect. The seemingly harsh terms of the bet could even be interpreted in hindsight as a hint that there had been more than two worlds.

[hroþila]

Now that we know that there have been countless worlds before this, the most likely explanation is that Loki was trying to teach his daughter a valuable lesson about the importance of clerics that would hurt her momentarily, but in the long run have almost no effect. The seemingly harsh terms of the bet could even be interpreted in hindsight as a hint that there had been more than two worlds.
The problem with this is that, if Loki expected this world to end, the bet would be a great way to make Hel more powerful, not less. She would hurt for a while and then reap huge rewards at the world's end. In my opinion, there's got to be more to it. Perhaps Loki was gambling on a new quiddity emerging for some reason, and thus never expected Hel to win the bet.

On the other hand, I guess it's probably in character for Loki to set a scheme in motion without really thinking it through.

[RatElemental]

It's also possible that Loki thought the world would last long enough even without a new quiddity for Thor to have gained enough power even with the end of the world bump to win.

[Zenzis]

The connection between Loki's followers killing undead and the bet is a cool one and makes me think Loki did those things specifically to make sure Hel didn't get a vote in some key issue he knew she would oppose him on. It could have been the world ending issue and it backfired, but could be something yet to be decided or something in the past.

It feels very trickster to me, because it seems like the main trick was the backfiring with the honor system, but the true intent was entirely different. Then again maybe Loki is just kind of a chaotic annoying tricky guy with no big plans.

[rbetieh]

im pretty sure that Loki was trying to remove her from the godsmoot. That is to say, to not let her get a chance to make/unmake reality. Maybe she doesnt play well with others?

[The Pilgrim]

The problem with this is that, if Loki expected this world to end, the bet would be a great way to make Hel more powerful, not less. She would hurt for a while and then reap huge rewards at the world's end. In my opinion, there's got to be more to it. Perhaps Loki was gambling on a new quiddity emerging for some reason, and thus never expected Hel to win the bet.

On the other hand, I guess it's probably in character for Loki to set a scheme in motion without really thinking it through.

Or maybe Loki counted on the world getting undone by the Snarl, so no souls to reap for Hel. Guess why he voted "no" at the Godsmoot, even before Hel announced her gambit.

[Bacon Elemental]

Maybe Loki just didnt make the connection when thinking up the bet/object lesson/trick that dismantling the world would mean a dishonourable death for every dwarf?

[mjasghar]

Currently the system helps Thor most obviously as death in battle is an easy honourable death - which raises the issue why there isn’t a northern god of mining who would have said the miners died honourably
But it also means that Loki is the only real option for anyone who is slightly out of step with society - in the past Loki night only have got the CE types, now he get all the Chaotic dwarves who don’t want to go to Hel and maybe a few Neutrals
Btw what happens to the elemental earth dwarves? Do their souls go to the inner planes?

[hamishspence]

Btw what happens to the elemental earth dwarves? Do their souls go to the inner planes?

Going by the description



Non-theistic clerics get their spells from a wide distributed network of beings with similar philosophies who can act as catalysts for the cleric—but because these are not centralized, none of them can exercise "veto power" over the cleric, nor is the cleric required to acknowledge their dominance (or even their existence). In Gontor's case, it may be that a powerful Earth Elemental is granting him his spells, but it could be a different one each day, or even some spells from one and some from another. If any of those elementals decide they don't like what he's doing with his magic, he just gets his spells from someone else that day. He may even be entirely oblivious to which elemental provides his spells at any point, and therefore is under no obligation to any of them. Unfortunately, that also means that no single elemental is going to be invested enough in Gontor to care what happens to him.

Analogy time! Regular clerics have an employer-employee relationship, where the employer (god) consumes the work (prayer) that the employee (cleric) generates and in return provides them with compensation (spells), where that compensation is actually generated by the work being done by the entire company (church). A non-theistic cleric is more like a freelance writer; they perform the work (believe in a philosophy) that they feel is right for them, and then sell that work to whatever client (quasi-deific elemental beings) is willing to pay (provide spells) for it. The freelancer has more flexibility than the employee to do as they wish, but they also do not have many benefits of steady employment.

it would appear that the Creed of Stone is effectively "deityless" - it's not a case of worshipping a full deity that resides on the Plane of Earth and has its own domain.

As such - they'd probably get treated the same way as Roy, if deemed honorable - and go to the Outer Plane that corresponds to their alignment, rather than an Inner Plane such as the Plane of Earth.

[Aveline]

I have a question about the bet.

Do we know anything at all about it, other than what Hel sums up to Lord Thyrm in #1083 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html)?

In Hel's illusory display:

Loki says "see who gets the most power"
Hel "trades [her] ability to make clerics among the living"
She gets dead dwarves' souls by default unless they "die with honor"

Furthermore, when her plan is completed, she will "collect millions of souls at once--and (her) winnings from the bet".

She also says in #1000 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html) that the bet "expires with this world".

But have there even been any hints as to what the winnings actually are?

[thereaper]

The problem with this is that, if Loki expected this world to end, the bet would be a great way to make Hel more powerful, not less. She would hurt for a while and then reap huge rewards at the world's end. In my opinion, there's got to be more to it. Perhaps Loki was gambling on a new quiddity emerging for some reason, and thus never expected Hel to win the bet.

On the other hand, I guess it's probably in character for Loki to set a scheme in motion without really thinking it through.

If the snarl destroys the world, then there are no souls for Hel to take.

You're also assuming that Loki wanted the bet to actually go that long. It is entirely possible that at the time he was planning to have the two of them call off the bet once Hel had learned her lesson. The appearance of The Dark One may have changed things.

[dtilque]

Perhaps Loki was gambling on a new quiddity emerging for some reason, and thus never expected Hel to win the bet.

Very, very unlikely. The bet was made before (or during) the creation of this world. They'd gone through billions of them previously without a new quiddity arising. No one would have expected it to happen in this world.


On the other hand, I guess it's probably in character for Loki to set a scheme in motion without really thinking it through.

That's the most likely case.

[hroþila]

If the snarl destroys the world, then there are no souls for Hel to take.

You're also assuming that Loki wanted the bet to actually go that long. It is entirely possible that at the time he was planning to have the two of them call off the bet once Hel had learned her lesson. The appearance of The Dark One may have changed things.
But Loki can't count on the Snarl destroying the world, because he could easily have lost the vote at the Godsmoot and then the world would have been safely demolished. If that's indeed what happened, then it's just "Loki didn't think this through" again.

Perhaps he was simply trying to weaken Thor and have some fun at the expense of Hel without really hurting her in the long run (quite the opposite: his scheme would likely have resulted in his daughter rising in the hierarchy, possibly to the very top), but the emergence of the Dark One's purple quiddity changed everything?

Very, very unlikely. The bet was made before (or during) the creation of this world. They'd gone through billions of them previously without a new quiddity arising. No one would have expected it to happen in this world.
Yes, I agree it is unlikely. The underlying reasoning behind that hypothesis however was that maybe something the gods did differently in this world allowed Loki to theorize that a new quiddity might arise.

[Mike Havran]

I think it is well in character for Loki to:
1. First outcheat Hel of her souls and followers (by both preventing her from having living priests and by ordering his followers to destroy undead, which were the only available options for Hel's clerics)
2. Then stall the coordinated unmaking of the world until Snarl breaks loose and devours Hel's due souls.

However, I cannot grasp why Thor took part in the bet. He must have known that the world will either be destroyed and souls would die dishonorably, or Snarl consumes them. So, he:
A) did not think it through
B) did not care if dwarven souls go to Hel
C) counted with Loki on the Snarl devouring them
D) did not believe Hel's plan will work the way Hel thinks it will.

None of these reflect on him well.

[Elanasaurus]

Or Thor was drunk. That doesn't really reflect well on him either.

[mjasghar]

The creation of a cannon fodder race with high fertility rates even in wastelands - likely that would end up with some exceptional individuals through survival of the fittest

[RatElemental]

This latest comic has some interesting implications for this hypothesis.

Loki basically tricked Hel into a diet of cake and ice cream for some reason. If it was to show her why we eat broccoli and carrots more often, then the fact that he pointed out the new quiddity calls that into question.

Of course, it's also possible he just sees condemning his daughter to a near eternity of unhealthy living that might have long lasting effects on her godly nature is worth it to finally be rid of the snarl for good.

[CJG]

Does anyone suspect that Loki might have been trying to teach Thor a lesson/screw Thor over, or even help his daughter? It seems that the main reason Hel is losing this bet is because Thor told the dwarves what was up. Maybe everyone thought he’d be too drunk to remember and lose a good chunk of souls?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Of course, it's also possible he just sees condemning his daughter to a near eternity of unhealthy living that might have long lasting effects on her godly nature is worth it to finally be rid of the snarl for good.

... I wouldn't put that past Loki, but it doesn't need to be that way, anymore than goblins need to remain XP bags for low-level clerics.

For example, if for whatever reason Hel was allowed to keep the Exexarch as her (now) High Priest of her Frontarchy, with promises from all other gods that she is allowed to have 1 such High priest (plus an apprentice, because Star Wars), and that they will be allowed to form a church and have a congregation and lead prayer in Hel's direction. She could then start having some nice broccoli with her diet of chips. Lets say that in exchange, she acknowledges she lost the bet, pays Thor the 100 souls or whatever they bet, and from then on she waves through every soul that goes into the gauntlet.

I'm not saying this will happen, I'm saying there is no reason why it couldn't happen (yes, it would be hard for it to happen, but not outright impossible). My point is that Hel's lot is not permanent even for this world. She learns her lesson, the dwarves get an easier transition to the afterlife, and overall happiness is slightly increased for an indeterminate duration. This is similar to how the goblins' lot is also not permanent: no matter what the intention was at creation, things can change.

Grey Wolf

[dtilque]

Yes, I agree it is unlikely. The underlying reasoning behind that hypothesis however was that maybe something the gods did differently in this world allowed Loki to theorize that a new quiddity might arise.

But the gods did something differently for every world and yet in billions of them, no new quiddity had arisen. Probably most of the gods would have thought that a new quiddity was impossible. So making the bet based on the utterly remote possibility of a new one occuring in the upcoming universe does not make any kind of sense at all.

[thereaper]

But Loki can't count on the Snarl destroying the world, because he could easily have lost the vote at the Godsmoot and then the world would have been safely demolished. If that's indeed what happened, then it's just "Loki didn't think this through" again.

Perhaps he was simply trying to weaken Thor and have some fun at the expense of Hel without really hurting her in the long run (quite the opposite: his scheme would likely have resulted in his daughter rising in the hierarchy, possibly to the very top), but the emergence of the Dark One's purple quiddity changed everything?

Yes, I agree it is unlikely. The underlying reasoning behind that hypothesis however was that maybe something the gods did differently in this world allowed Loki to theorize that a new quiddity might arise.

If Hel could predict with near perfect accuracy (excepting the Demigods) how the Gods would vote in the Godsmoot, then it seems reasonable that Loki could, as well (given that these sort of plots are literally in his portfolio). Keep in mind, we know for a fact some worlds have been destroyed by the Snarl, just as some haven't (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html).

[hroþila]

I don't think that's comparable at all. Hel had a pretty good idea of how the vote would go, but she didn't need any supernatural foresight for that: she only needed to know how the previous Godsmoot had gone and the personality of the other gods to make an educated guess, and she actually spoke to the demigods about this, so maybe she spoke to the gods too. By contrast, Loki came up with the bet at the beginning of creation and he was in a much worse position to guess. Therefore, if Hel cashing in all those souls was not something he wanted or at least was not fundamentally against, this must be a case of Loki not thinking things through, because the risk of that happening was considerable. The other possibility, as I said, is that he was OK with Hel becoming much more powerful, at least originally, and that the ascension of the Dark One changed his priorities.

I believe all these possibilities would be in-character for Loki. I'm just looking at the implications of each of them — it doesn't mean I personally favour one over the others.

[Bacon Elemental]

This latest comic has some interesting implications for this hypothesis.

Loki basically tricked Hel into a diet of cake and ice cream for some reason. If it was to show her why we eat broccoli and carrots more often, then the fact that he pointed out the new quiddity calls that into question.

Of course, it's also possible he just sees condemning his daughter to a near eternity of unhealthy living that might have long lasting effects on her godly nature is worth it to finally be rid of the snarl for good.

Its entirely possible that the icecream cake diet was just to teach her about broccoli and carrots, but that his priorities changed from "Teach daughter an amusing lesson through trickery" to "holy **** we might have a chance to end the whole damn cycle" as soon as he saw that angry, angry, purple goblin.

[Draconi Redfir]

my bet is that Loki / thor just didn't think about it at the time. they didn't realize the world's destruction would be dishonorable.

it's not some scheme or plot or conspiracy, it's just a case of "Hey lets have some fun" followed swiftly by "Oh shoot i didn't think of that..."

[Riftwolf]

Headcanon: at the beginning of this worlds creation, Odin told Loki of a vision he'd had of the fate of this world being threatened by a Lich in the North, and should this world last long enough, the cycle would end altogether.

Loki put the bet together out of incomplete information to stop future Xykon.

[martianmister]

Headcanon:

Loki was trying to rig the voting process of the future godsmoots, by eliminating Hel's vote.

[RatElemental]

Its entirely possible that the icecream cake diet was just to teach her about broccoli and carrots, but that his priorities changed from "Teach daughter an amusing lesson through trickery" to "holy **** we might have a chance to end the whole damn cycle" as soon as he saw that angry, angry, purple goblin.

I'm a bit confused why you reiterated the third line of my post there.

[Bacon Elemental]

I'm a bit confused why you reiterated the third line of my post there.

Really? Your post seemed to me to imply that Loki planned the whole thing out in advance, as opposed to suddenly changing tack being all like "sorry kid"

[Jasdoif]

Hel had a pretty good idea of how the vote would go, but she didn't need any supernatural foresight for that: she only needed to know how the previous Godsmoot had gone and the personality of the other gods to make an educated guess....Yes indeed.



As was pointed out in #998, the gods have held this exact vote before, during the Order of the Scribble's day. Between that and knowledge of their personalities and priorities, it is not unreasonable that a hyper-intelligent being would be able to count votes ahead of time. Maybe there were one or two that were uncertain, but that's why she had Durkon wait until it was over.

Of course, that much could apply easily to anyone else in the Northern Pantheon as well.

[Riftwolf]

Yes indeed.




Of course, that much could apply easily to anyone else in the Northern Pantheon as well.

Makes even more sense if they've voted BILLIONS of times. You can start work with statistics at that scale.

[Goblin_Priest]

I think Odin and Loki were more aware of the stakes at hand than first impressions may suggest.

I don't think either the bet Loki made nor the prophecy Odin gave were innocent products of chance.

[Draconi Redfir]

Headcanon: at the beginning of this worlds creation, Odin told Loki of a vision he'd had of the fate of this world being threatened by a Lich in the North, and should this world last long enough, the cycle would end altogether.

Loki put the bet together out of incomplete information to stop future Xykon.


I think Odin and Loki were more aware of the stakes at hand than first impressions may suggest.

I don't think either the bet Loki made nor the prophecy Odin gave were innocent products of chance.


Headcanon:

Loki was trying to rig the voting process of the future godsmoots, by eliminating Hel's vote.


No offence, but i think you're all vastly overthinking everything.

think about it, you've already gone through a bazillion different worlds, you've done this song and dance time and time again, and as Thor pointed out, they're already scraping the bottom of the barrel. You ALSO happen to be a god of mischeif, and repetition tends to get boring.

So you decide to spice things up with this one. You trick a bet between your fool of a brother, and your brat of a daughter, all just to see how it changes the world over the others and to watch the two of them squirm as they tried to deal with this new bet that they've never had to account for before. Heck, maybe you've done this before between other gods.

Problems is you didn't think it through, and Hel found a loophole you didn't consider. oops.

Quite simply: Loki, being the god of mischief, was just looking to spice up a monotonous cycle and a boring world with some catch between two of his biggest rivals, just to watch them squirm. He didn't think things through though, and now he's paying for the consequences.

Occam's Razor my friends, the simplest solution is usually the best bet. The more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely it is to be true.

He even outright states that keeping her out of the godsmoot was NOT his intention (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html) (Page 2, pannel 1.)

[JennTora]

Occam's Razor my friends, the simplest solution is usually the best bet. The more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely it is to be true.

He even outright states that keeping her out of the godsmoot was NOT his intention (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html) (Page 2, pannel 1.)

I find Occam's Razor doesn't always work so well with stories, particularly not for plot points.

[Draconi Redfir]

I find Occam's Razor doesn't always work so well with stories, particularly not for plot points.

And imagining random ideas based on nonexistent plot points and with no evidence to support them work so much better?

[Rrmcklin]

I think Odin and Loki were more aware of the stakes at hand than first impressions may suggest.

I don't think either the bet Loki made nor the prophecy Odin gave were innocent products of chance.

I mean, prophecies by definition aren't products of chance, but connecting the bet to Violet Quiddity (or something like that) is making a connection we have no reason to by.

Being a trickster god, and being omniscient are not the same thing.

[RatElemental]

And imagining random ideas based on nonexistent plot points and with no evidence to support them work so much better?

Eliminating Hel's vote is actually a pretty reasonable theory that doesn't make many assumptions, but it was one that you shot down. We know Loki arranged the bet, we know the bet precludes Hel from having living clerics, we know Loki teaches his followers that undead are bad (and thus gives them impetus to go kill them), and we know that the gods need a cleric to cast votes in godsmoots. The only things you could call an assumption here would be that Loki knows the rules used in godsmoots, and that undead clerics will be included in the whole "undead are icky, get rid of them" thing.

The only counterpoint is Loki claiming this was not his motive, to Hel, the victim if it indeed was his motive.

[Aveline]

To be clear, we have no idea what the bet's prize is, right? According to Hel in #1083 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html), there is a prize. Has it never been stated or hinted? (I feel like it probably would have come up in the course of this thread, but still, I have to ask.)

My gut says Loki's motivations are multifaceted--he wants the consequences of the contest in its own right (maybe including Hel's disenfranchisement), and he wants the consequences of the payout in its own right. And since I'm pretty sure we know nothing about the payout yet, we can't know all of what he wants out of the bet, much less why he wants those things.

[Riftwolf]

No offence, but i think you're all vastly overthinking everything.

think about it, you've already gone through a bazillion different worlds, you've done this song and dance time and time again, and as Thor pointed out, they're already scraping the bottom of the barrel. You ALSO happen to be a god of mischeif, and repetition tends to get boring.

So you decide to spice things up with this one. You trick a bet between your fool of a brother, and your brat of a daughter, all just to see how it changes the world over the others and to watch the two of them squirm as they tried to deal with this new bet that they've never had to account for before. Heck, maybe you've done this before between other gods.

Problems is you didn't think it through, and Hel found a loophole you didn't consider. oops.

Quite simply: Loki, being the god of mischief, was just looking to spice up a monotonous cycle and a boring world with some catch between two of his biggest rivals, just to watch them squirm. He didn't think things through though, and now he's paying for the consequences.

Occam's Razor my friends, the simplest solution is usually the best bet. The more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely it is to be true.

He even outright states that keeping her out of the godsmoot was NOT his intention (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html) (Page 2, pannel 1.)

Secondary headcanon: the Chaotic-Chaotic Evil plane is the Plane of Lulz. It makes sense that's Lokis domain, and his only motivation.
I just liked my idea better, even if it's more unlikely. Yknow, like Banjo threads.

[hamishspence]

Secondary headcanon: the Chaotic-Chaotic Evil plane is the Plane of Lulz. It makes sense that's Lokis domain, and his only motivation.

Hilyga, at least, seems to believe that there's "a cool lounge upstairs" in Valhalla (CN/CG plane) which she, as an "honorable cleric of Loki" will go to when she dies:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1113.html

so (if she's right), even if he has a place somewhere in Pandemonium, that isn't where his followers go, or, by implication, where he lives most of the time.

[Larre Gannd]

Secondary headcanon: the Chaotic-Chaotic Evil plane is the Plane of Lulz. It makes sense that's Lokis domain, and his only motivation.
I just liked my idea better, even if it's more unlikely. Yknow, like Banjo threads.

The Giant did say that the gods in OOTS are his own take on them. I always thought that this Loki is True Neutral. He hasn’t done anything to break rules, really, and the worst thing he has done is the bet. But hating Thor is not evil, necessarily.

[Draconi Redfir]

where was it stated again that loki's people go on undead-killing sprees?

i mean i figured the reason why hel couldn't get an undead cleric is because most are too mindless, most undead clerics are too low-level, and non-cleric undead couldn't take cleric levels for whatever reason.

[RatElemental]

where was it stated again that loki's people go on undead-killing sprees?

i mean i figured the reason why hel couldn't get an undead cleric is because most are too mindless, most undead clerics are too low-level, and non-cleric undead couldn't take cleric levels for whatever reason.

Loki hates the undead. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1107.html) Generally when a god teaches their followers to hate something, the more powerful of those followers tend to go off and start killing said thing.

Not strictly Loki related, but the stated reason Hel hasn't had a cleric yet is that whenever she gifts a particularly bright undead creature with clerical powers they immediately get killed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html).

[Draconi Redfir]

Loki hates the undead. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1107.html) Generally when a god teaches their followers to hate something, the more powerful of those followers tend to go off and start killing said thing.

Not strictly Loki related, but the stated reason Hel hasn't had a cleric yet is that whenever she gifts a particularly bright undead creature with clerical powers they immediately get killed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0962.html).

well to be fair, normal people would probably want an undead cleric dead for not-god related things. Undead clerics can be SUPER dangerous!