[3.5] No Humanoids Campaign

[Thurbane]

Just wondering: say you have a hypothetical campaign setting with no Humanoids: they are all extinct or otherwise missing.

All other creature types are present (Monstrous Humanoids, Fey, Giants, Aberrations etc.).

PLayers could only select from non-Humanoid type races for their characters, and no Humanoids are present in the game world.

This would rule out certain feats and PrCs, and would have a kick-on effect to certain other races (Ilithids needs humanoids to breed true etc.).

What would be the biggest changes in this type of game compared to a standard campaign?

Cheers - T

[Troacctid]

LA +0 player options would be pretty slim. Discounting savage progressions, I believe you'd have Elan, Neraph, Synad, Glimmerfolk, Killoren, Lupin, Tibbit, Duskling, Vhaerath Half-Drow, Warforged, Warforged Scout, and I think that's it? Nothing that gives a bonus to any stat other than Dex or Con.

[jdizzlean]

my current party is almost this already with the exception of a gnome (gnomes are like the boogeyman in our world though).

uhm, two anthropomorphics, a kobold, a warforged, some goat thing, a goliath, and the gnome.

makes for fun social situations

[Goaty14]

LA +0 player options would be pretty slim. Discounting savage progressions, I believe you'd have Elan, Neraph, Synad, Glimmerfolk, Killoren, Lupin, Tibbit, Duskling, Vhaerath Half-Drow, Warforged, Warforged Scout, and I think that's it? Nothing that gives a bonus to any stat other than Dex or Con.

Dragonwrought Kobolds (Dragon) and Goliaths (Monstrous Humanoid)

[Thurbane]

LA +0 player options would be pretty slim. Discounting savage progressions, I believe you'd have Elan, Neraph, Synad, Glimmerfolk, Killoren, Lupin, Tibbit, Duskling, Vhaerath Half-Drow, Warforged, Warforged Scout, and I think that's it? Nothing that gives a bonus to any stat other than Dex or Con.

Also Daelkyr Half-Blood, Faun, Jermlaine, Muckdweller, Anthro Bats, Lizards, Monkeys, Rats, Ravens, Toads & Weasels.


Dragonwrought Kobolds (Dragon) and Goliaths (Monstrous Humanoid)

Goliaths are LA +1.

Dragonwrought Kobolds would be difficult as they start as Humanoids, which don't exist...

[RoboEmperor]

I don't think there will be any significant change. Races are largely irrelevant and even LA+1 races can do fine, and most humanoids are suboptimal.

[Goaty14]

Dragonwrought Kobolds would be difficult as they start as Humanoids, which don't exist...

No, Dragonwrought Kobolds start as dragons. Heck, they literally start as their own race -- have their own egg type, scale color and everything! Albeit, they come from kobold eggs, but that begets how kobolds came to exist in the first place (if they're from mutated dragon eggs, then it wouldn't be unreasonable to rule that a smaller percentage of what would-be kobold eggs be dragonwrought kobold eggs instead).

[liquidformat]

poor lizardfolk not only do they suck but they get lumped in with humanoid for some strange reason... Even though shifter are currently humanoid I don't think it is unreasonable to make their base type fey or monstrous humanoid.

Since when is half-drow not humanoid?

[Mechalich]

A big issue of this sort of world is how do you handle hybrids. If you allow hybrids, on the grounds that there were once humanoids but aren't anymore, your world is full of various hybrids - mostly planetouched - and otherwise largely resembles a normal D&D world just people tend to glow or have horns or something. In fact, you probably get a world where the average city has a population more closely resembling a planar one than a typical prime one.

On the other hand, if you eliminate hybrids, well...it gets super limited.At LA +0 that knocks you down to just Killoren, Lupin, and Warforged. The +1 and +2 LA zones are highly limited too. At +1 you've got: Bladeling, Diopsid, Dromite, Goliath, Jaebrin, and Uldra. At +2 there's: Aarakora, and Dolgrim. Hybrids simply account for a huge portion of the races out there without any Racial HD.

This presents a huge problem as to who or what builds societies in this world. Killoren are weird nature fey, warforged are constructs. Bladelings are highly restricted outsiders, Diopsids are bizarre insects, Goaliaths are tribal nomads, Jaebrins are inherent outsiders, and Uldra are regional restricted fey. Aarakora are primitive bird people, and Dolgrim are monstrous. The only one you're left with at the end is the Dromites. So you get a world ruled by psionic eusocial insect people. Which, um, isn't going to provide a very traditional D&D experience.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I suggest starting at a middling ECL and using gestalt, with racial HD and (reduced) LA on one side. This vastly increases the options available, especially if you use savage progressions and start at level 8-10. It also ensures that everyone is customizable, what with having a class on one side. That way, nobody is stuck as a "plain vanilla" monster.

I once played in a campaign like that. I played as a Dragonwrought kobold totemist/factotum//shaper psion in a no-humanoids-allowed campaign (we were slaves fighting against our human masters), but I fluffed him as a tanuki (humanoid raccoon, essentially) with draconic ancestry. It was awesome, for all of the week it lasted. His name? Maximillian Du'Raritry.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Mechalich
This presents a huge problem as to who or what builds societies in this world. Killoren are weird nature fey, warforged are constructs. Bladelings are highly restricted outsiders, Diopsids are bizarre insects, Goaliaths are tribal nomads, Jaebrins are inherent outsiders, and Uldra are regional restricted fey. Aarakora are primitive bird people, and Dolgrim are monstrous. The only one you're left with at the end is the Dromites. So you get a world ruled by psionic eusocial insect people.

Or, depending on the reasons for the humanoids’ disappearance, it could be the warforged who have carried on with the job of sustaining civilization.

I could easily see a society of warforged trying earnestly to imitate humans, perhaps on the grounds that they were created to take over after the humans were gone.

[Maat Mons]

LA +0 player options would be pretty slim. Discounting savage progressions, I believe you'd have Elan, Neraph, Synad, Glimmerfolk, Killoren, Lupin, Tibbit, Duskling, Vhaerath Half-Drow, Warforged, Warforged Scout, and I think that's it? Nothing that gives a bonus to any stat other than Dex or Con.


Dragonwrought Kobolds (Dragon)


Also Daelkyr Half-Blood, Faun, Jermlaine, Muckdweller, Anthro Bats, Lizards, Monkeys, Rats, Ravens, Toads & Weasels.

Let's see. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=181)

I think gruwaar and t'kel are the only propper options that haven't been covered.

If LA's of questionable veracity are allowed, there's also beguiler, hairy spider, and unseelie fey.

Could there be a family line of people with the otherworldly feat still carrying on?

If the game starts at level 3, you could maybe be a necroplitain who's been around since before the extinction event.

I know you said nor racial/template classes, but aasimar, feytouched, and tiefling all have progressions you don't actually have to take levels in.

[Mechalich]

Or, depending on the reasons for the humanoids’ disappearance, it could be the warforged who have carried on with the job of sustaining civilization.

I could easily see a society of warforged trying earnestly to imitate humans, perhaps on the grounds that they were created to take over after the humans were gone.

Thing is, Warforged completely lack biological needs. They might build cities and make books for scholarship purposes, but they have no need to farm, or tend livestock, or produce medicines, or anything like that. A warforged society is going to look more like a monastery or university campus than anything else.

Ultimately, a more likely outcome is that the dominant race is some sort of powerful, spellcasting (because spellcasting is the route of ultimate power) monstrous race. Dragons are, of course, the traditional solution, but other options might make more sense. Intelligent, non-humanoid, non-outsider spellcasting monsters aren't especially common, but there are some out there. Nagas, for example, or Rakshasas. This world is also a good candidate to be dominated by Fey courts, who chose to ban humanoids on the order of some eccentric fey pseudo-deity.

Another option is the Yuan-ti conquest route. Yuan-ti purebloods qualify as monstrous humanoids, so you could run this world as one where the Yuan-ti have achieved victory and exterminated all the other humanoids leaving only races they don't care about around, in which case the PCs form members of an anti-Yuan-ti resistance. This, actually, seems to me like a fun campaign idea, since you'd have to try and forge an alliance between highly disparate factions in order to fight the serpent empire.

[ericgrau]

LA +0 player options would be pretty slim. Discounting savage progressions, I believe you'd have Elan, Neraph, Synad, Glimmerfolk, Killoren, Lupin, Tibbit, Duskling, Vhaerath Half-Drow, Warforged, Warforged Scout, and I think that's it? Nothing that gives a bonus to any stat other than Dex or Con.

Aren't many of those descendants of humanoids though? They sound as doomed as Illithids.

PC-wise I agree it won't make a huge difference. Casters might take the few LA 0 options available and so be strangely limited in race. Others can take LA+1 or so and it's not a big deal. The more interesting part seems to be how you build the campaign world. Who rules what, etc. And it's not necessarily LA+1 or LA+2 beings. Some major monsters might control large portions of the world and be much more populous than usual, something that doesn't happen with all those pesky humanoids in the way.

Let's see... fields of centuars, swamps full of hags, mountains full of harpies, oceans of sahuagin. Clans of giants in their respective lands. Ogres and trolls too. All the fantastical monsters you normally run into in secluded areas are now all over the place and running towns. And where do they draw their borders and where do they co-exist? How do they farm or hunt? What do they trade?

[Mechalich]

Aren't many of those descendants of humanoids though? They sound as doomed as Illithids.

PC-wise I agree it won't make a huge difference. Casters might take the few LA 0 options available and so be strangely limited in race. Others can take LA+1 or so and it's not a big deal. The more interesting part seems to be how you build the campaign world. Who rules what, etc. And it's not necessarily LA+1 or LA+2 beings. Some major monsters might control large portions of the world and be much more populous than usual, something that doesn't happen with all those pesky humanoids in the way.

Let's see... fields of centuars, swamps full of hags, mountains full of harpies, oceans of sahuagin. Clans of giants in their respective lands. Ogres and trolls too. All the fantastical monsters you normally run into in secluded areas are now all over the place and running towns. And where do they draw their borders and where do they co-exist? How do they farm or hunt? What do they trade?

These sorts of questions are why the Yuan-ti conquest scenario appeals to me. You'd still have cities and nations, they'd just now all look let Stygia from Conan and be filled with snakes. You'd also have ancient ruins from fallen civilizations the Yuan-ti leveled. Monsters still have their usual distributions - because the Yuan-ti have their own monster-hunters. This simplifies a lot of the no-humanoids problems by providing an alternative version of civilization that is kind of like a humanoid one, but not. The campaign would then play out as a group of characters from a tribal population fighting against the depredations of a cruel slaving society.

Alternatively, you could have the humanoid apocalypse be a very recent event. A world post-Ethergaunt extermination might end up in a situation like this, especially if you knock Goliaths off the list too. That would leave a world full of empty and devastated civilizations just now being resettled. That way you could keep monster distributions more or less as is, and everyone would be engaged in a massive competitive land-grab.

[ericgrau]

I'd love a Yuan-ti civilization, but I'd like to see competing civilizations too. Even if Yuan-ti is the dominant one, or other(s) instead because of <insert plot here>.

[unseenmage]

Which of the remaining races mate, age, and die at the same rate as the now extinct humanoids? And occupy similar biomes?

Because those are the ones who will immediately contend for the most-commonly-encountered-race crown.

And of those which race is most likely to share humanoid aggressions and conquest drives?

Because those are the races who now divvy up the world.


Biome dependent races (ice people, ocean folk, underdark dwellers, etc.) lack the biology to occupy the humanoid niche. While reclusive or long lived races lack the humanoid drive to conquer and consume their environs.


Dragons for example hide and hoard rather than raise armies and rule. Undead similarly have eternity to just wait out the mortals.

Would be interesting to see what races fit the bill by their written fluff.

[RoboEmperor]

Warforged will be most common. Warforged can be wizards and wizards are gonna setup mass production warforged forges because the nonhumanoids are mostly violent and threaten their existence which will end in a robot war like sci-fi.

Advances in magitech will result in higher level mass produced warforged.

[unseenmage]

Warforged will be most common. Warforged can be wizards and wizards are gonna setup mass production warforged forges because the nonhumanoids are mostly violent and threaten their existence which will end in a robot war like sci-fi.

Advances in magitech will result in higher level mass produced warforged.
As much as I adore Warforged, and I do, this is doubtful.
Why fight and risk anything when they can just leave and occupy biomes inhospitable to the living instead?

[TiaC]

Elans wound be interesting, as they would be unable to reproduce, but since they're immortal, it would take a very long time for them to go extinct.

Synads are pretty human-like and completely independent of humanoid races.

However, the number of Anthropomorphic whatevers (and Lupins, and Tibbits, and beguilers...) means that this world is likely to be one of furries.

[noob]

Thing is, Warforged completely lack biological needs. They might build cities and make books for scholarship purposes, but they have no need to farm, or tend livestock, or produce medicines, or anything like that. A warforged society is going to look more like a monastery or university campus than anything else.

Ultimately, a more likely outcome is that the dominant race is some sort of powerful, spellcasting (because spellcasting is the route of ultimate power) monstrous race. Dragons are, of course, the traditional solution, but other options might make more sense. Intelligent, non-humanoid, non-outsider spellcasting monsters aren't especially common, but there are some out there. Nagas, for example, or Rakshasas. This world is also a good candidate to be dominated by Fey courts, who chose to ban humanoids on the order of some eccentric fey pseudo-deity.

Another option is the Yuan-ti conquest route. Yuan-ti purebloods qualify as monstrous humanoids, so you could run this world as one where the Yuan-ti have achieved victory and exterminated all the other humanoids leaving only races they don't care about around, in which case the PCs form members of an anti-Yuan-ti resistance. This, actually, seems to me like a fun campaign idea, since you'd have to try and forge an alliance between highly disparate factions in order to fight the serpent empire.

Or a society of warforged casters that get strong by beating up tons of people and constantly duel each other could take the space of strongest civilization before spellcasting races gets to that since getting strong by beating up people is much faster than stuff like the speed at which non crafted creatures grow.
A warforged is created directly adult then can directly start beating up other warforged to progress in spellcasting
As you said a warforged would make towns just like monasteries and university campus which are the best places to mass produce T1 spellcasters especially since warforgeds are made for war so it is perfectly normal if they decide "we are going to program the new warforged we produce either for believing very intensely or for wanting to learn arcane magic so that they all become T1 spellcasters"

and if warforged starts all becoming spellcasters is is obvious they are going to mass produce warforgeds easily and since warforgeds do not need any resource to live it means that it might end up swarming everything.


As much as I adore Warforged, and I do, this is doubtful.
Why fight and risk anything when they can just leave and occupy biomes inhospitable to the living instead?

Biomes inhospitable to the living are only negative energy biomes and even then it is not that much inhospitable: there is tons of living creatures in all the biomes.
Also negative energy based biomes are often full of undead and while warforged are tough against undead (+4 to most of their saves against undead) they are not invulnerable to undead either.


Which of the remaining races mate, age, and die at the same rate as the now extinct humanoids? And occupy similar biomes?

Because those are the ones who will immediately contend for the most-commonly-encountered-race crown.

the space filling race do not need to mate at the same rate as humanoids: they can make offspring faster and it works.
they also do not need to die for them to grow in numbers: they only need to have an imperative to create new creatures
and they can occupy the same biomes by overcrowding so much where they are that they start conquering the other places just to have some free space.

so warforgeds could do that if they go all "let us all be T1 spellcasters and constantly fight each other in non lethal duels to become stronger and then with our powers create more warforgeds which does the same training and so on"
so if warforgeds were programmed to make a civilization as strong as possible the entire multiverse would end up being overcrowded by warforgeds and quickly the only lifeforms would be lifeforms that are either needed for crafting magical items or lifeforms that lives well in warforged occupation.

An example of case where something close might happen is if there was multiple humanoid civilisations and that they started creating warforgeds to make war to each other then those civilizations lost all their humanoids but the warforgeds are still here and waging war between each other and creating more warforgeds endlessly for the war(and they get stronger and stronger due to how xp works).

[Mechalich]

Or a society of warforged casters that get strong by beating up tons of people and constantly duel each other could take the space of strongest civilization before spellcasting races gets to that since getting strong by beating up people is much faster than stuff like the speed at which non crafted creatures grow.

You do realize XP is a game abstraction right? Attempting to organize a society around XP maximization doesn't actually work in traditional (non-parody, OOTS is a parody) D&D worlds.


and if warforged starts all becoming spellcasters is is obvious they are going to mass produce warforgeds easily and since warforgeds do not need any resource to live it means that it might end up swarming everything.

Actually that is not only not obvious, it's counter to the nature of Warforged. Warforged have no drive for reproduction at all. They have no reason to ever make more of themselves -they're not a hegemonizing swarm like clockwork horrors - and do not possess racial solidarity - since they were built in large part to fight each other. Freed from external commands and any need to fit into humanoid society (because that society no longer exists) each individual warforged is likely to wander off and spend eternity pursuing their own individual interests.

[Sto]

We need to know how humanoids were wiped out. Was there a humanoid death bomb? Was there a way? Did some fool wake up great Cthulhu? Depending on the method the world will look very different.

[unseenmage]

...

Actually that is not only not obvious, it's counter to the nature of Warforged. Warforged have no drive for reproduction at all. They have no reason to ever make more of themselves -they're not a hegemonizing swarm like clockwork horrors - and do not possess racial solidarity - since they were built in large part to fight each other. Freed from external commands and any need to fit into humanoid society (because that society no longer exists) each individual warforged is likely to wander off and spend eternity pursuing their own individual interests.
Additionally, last time I read up on them no one knew how to make more Warforged. Especially the Warforged themselves.


We need to know how humanoids were wiped out. Was there a humanoid death bomb? Was there a way? Did some fool wake up great Cthulhu? Depending on the method the world will look very different.

Additionally, will there be any humanoids remaining in isolated time locks? Temporal Stasis, stored Clones, Quintessence pools, True Ressurrected slain undead, etc?

Or has the gameworld become one truly inhospitable to the humanoid type via divine mandate or a subtle rewriting of the in-universe rules for how lifeforce is granted to the living or something huge like that?

[Palanan]

Yuan-Ti vs. warforged, obviously. :smalltongue:

There’s room in the scenario for both options—a Yuani-Ti empire that finally disposed of the humanoids, and a warforged society that carries on human traditions even though humans are gone. Some warforged might wander off into the hills and spend their time watching bees pollinate wildflowers, but plenty of other warforged would be willing to maintain human norms. According to Races of Eberron:


Many warforged adopt the culture of the area they live in…. Some warforged take such efforts to great extremes, exploring their living nature by engaging in eating, and “sleeping” by remaining inactive during the night.

So even though they don’t have a biological drive to reproduce, those warforged devoted to emulating human culture would also experiment with creating families, either by “adopting” or by attempting to create new warforged.

Either way, there’s a strong case to be made that enough warforged would be emulating human society to constitute a society of their own. And if the Yuan-Ti attack them, in an effort to wipe out all memory of humanoid culture—well, unit cohesion and counterattack are what warforged do best, and an assault by Yuan-Ti would only serve to further unify the human-emulating warforged into a society devoted to resisting the Yuan-Ti and perpetuating their adopted lifestyle. You never want something as much as when someone tries to take it from you, and I think this would hold true for warforged as well.

To me this would be a really interesting campaign scenario—the Yuan-Ti as the evil empire encompassing most of the known world, with a warforged society dedicated to holding off the Yuan-Ti and keeping the memory of their human creators alive. I'd love to play in that campaign.

.

[liquidformat]

I'd love a Yuan-ti civilization, but I'd like to see competing civilizations too. Even if Yuan-ti is the dominant one, or other(s) instead because of <insert plot here>.

I would go with mindflayers and an undead civilization. The vast majority of humanoids became undead or destroyed by yuan-ti so they are all but gone from the face of the planet and what few are left are mindflayer slaves that are heavily protected to ensure the survival of mindflayers.


Additionally, last time I read up on them no one knew how to make more Warforged. Especially the Warforged themselves.
Actually that is just the public perception I am afb but there are quite a few people who are pointed at possibly having forges; the head of Cannith in Sharn is the son/grandson? of the original creator of warforged and is studying warforged and rumored to possibly have and be using a forge. The Lord of Blades is also rumored to have and be using a forge also his background gives good basis for how and why you would have a warforged civilization that is intent on increasing their population rather than just be ascetic monks wandering off into the boonies to study whatever they are most interested in.

Clockwork horror plague is also a very interesting and stargate esc plot.

[unseenmage]

...


Actually that is just the public perception I am afb but there are quite a few people who are pointed at possibly having forges; the head of Cannith in Sharn is the son/grandson? of the original creator of warforged and is studying warforged and rumored to possibly have and be using a forge. The Lord of Blades is also rumored to have and be using a forge also his background gives good basis for how and why you would have a warforged civilization that is intent on increasing their population rather than just be ascetic monks wandering off into the boonies to study whatever they are most interested in.

Clockwork horror plague is also a very interesting and stargate esc plot.
And it's the forges that are the crux of the problem as it is they which cannot be recreated.

Several scattered creation forges in the hands of factions actively at odds with one another hardly seems to me to be the basis for a very stable population.


And if the surviving races can recreate the creation forges then what's stopping them recreating the warforged in their own image?

I seem to remember a warforged dragon (drake?) from a 4E Dragon mag somewhere.
Just one forge coopted by a race with vastly superior base stats than humans and all hell breaks loose. Troll warforged sound fun. How bout illithiforged? Ethergaunt super scifi warforged maybe?

And all of that is only if the blasted things dont just break down and stop functioning for whatever reason. Who knows, maybe they required the souls of living humanoids to function properly?




On another note, a setting like this might have to deal with the afterlife of such extinct humanoids. Kind of anticlimactic if the dead races are all just a single Plane Shift or True Res away from being plot relevant again.

What of the deities of the dead races? How do they get on with the bulk of their worshippers extinct?
How much do the pantheons get reshuffled after such an event?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by unseenmage
What of the deities of the dead races? How do they get on with the bulk of their worshippers extinct?

If the warforged are actively perpetuating human culture, then most likely they’ll continue worshipping the same gods. Indeed, the gods may be especially vested in supporting the warforged, as their only remaining worshippers in a world now bereft of their traditional supplicants.


Originally Posted by unseenmage
Several scattered creation forges in the hands of factions actively at odds with one another hardly seems to me to be the basis for a very stable population.

This actually sounds more likely to lead to the long-term survival of the warforged, and indeed to gradual population increase. If there was just one creation forge it would be an easy target, and its loss would spell the end of the warforged, assuming they couldn’t find another way to copy themselves.

But with several forges, there’s a better chance that whatever happens, some of them will survive.

[liquidformat]

And it's the forges that are the crux of the problem as it is they which cannot be recreated.

Several scattered creation forges in the hands of factions actively at odds with one another hardly seems to me to be the basis for a very stable population.
creating creation forges is always been a bit hazy, in some parts of the books they hint that at least some people in cannith know how to make them but just don't because of the treats and in others they just claim the forges all came from Xen'Drik but leave the possibility open that there are more yet to be found.

In the case that Cannith in fact did make them that means somewhere there is information on how to make them it is just hidden. Also I vaguely remember seeing something about Lord of Blades Forge being one that they created not found, though again would have to go on a hunt through the books to confirm that.


What of the deities of the dead races? How do they get on with the bulk of their worshippers extinct?
How much do the pantheons get reshuffled after such an event?

The gods are like tv shows if no one is watching then they die off... So in the end only elder gods(local news) who don't care about worshipers would still be around and kicking after humanoid die off. also that could explain why they can't be resurrected as their eternal souls disappeared along with the death of their patron god.

On a side note half-giants could still be a thing just change what the other half could be...

[unseenmage]

If the warforged are actively perpetuating human culture, then most likely they’ll continue worshipping the same gods. Indeed, the gods may be especially vested in supporting the warforged, as their only remaining worshippers in a world now bereft of their traditional supplicants.
Except I do remember an explicit passage explaining that warforged do not have an afterlife.
That could cramp this theory's style somewhat. Faith's of Eberron maybe? Sorry, dont remember offhand.



This actually sounds more likely to lead to the long-term survival of the warforged, and indeed to gradual population increase. If there was just one creation forge it would be an easy target, and its loss would spell the end of the warforged, assuming they couldn’t find another way to copy themselves.

But with several forges, there’s a better chance that whatever happens, some of them will survive.
Survival sure, absolutely. The little buggers dont even traditionally die. They just sit broken awaiting repairs.

But to actively be a force in the world's affairs? Its wars? For that a half dozen forges might as well be a single forge.
Easily divined, targeted, and removed as any kind of threat.

They dont move so are easily besieged. Are complicated machinery and thus easily disrupted. In this gameworld divinations are a thing so finding them should be no trouble.

Heck, it takes a year for newly created Warforged to mature. Undead by comparison are created proficient and battle ready without a giant McGuffin/plot device/Achilles Heel standing between them and world domination.

[Sto]

Heck, it takes a year for newly created Warforged to mature. Undead by comparison are created proficient and battle ready without a giant McGuffin/plot device/Achilles Heel standing between them and world domination.

This does raise the question of undead. Are they going to be wondering around? Are there going to be undead cities with ghosts (I think someone mentioned ghosts) wandering around? Are there vampires burried deep in the earth? What about a lich or 2? There would need to be something involved to stop Divine Intervention from preventing the wiping out of all humanoid races.

[RoboEmperor]

Additionally, last time I read up on them no one knew how to make more Warforged. Especially the Warforged themselves.

If House Cannith can figure it out Warforged should be able to too. Reverse Engineering.

I agree that warforged would not instigate war. They would create mass production warforged forges after a war on them starts. Seeing how some of the surviving nonhumanoids are highly violent and world conquering types (Yuan-ti) it's gonna happen.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ericgrau
I'd love a Yuan-ti civilization, but I'd like to see competing civilizations too.

I think we can do this. Here’s my take on the scenario:



Yuan-Ti Dominance

The empires of men are in ruins. Dwarves, elves, orcs and similar races have been purged from the world.

After long years of war, the last human empires fought themselves to a bloody standstill, much of their former territories pitted and scarred by weapons built from hate and desperation. But no sooner had the weary remnants agreed to a tentative peace than an unknown plague swept across the land, carried by soldiers and refugees, and millions more died in a matter of months.

Sensing their best opportunity in a thousand years, the yuan-ti struck at the survivors, having gathered their forces in eager anticipation of this moment. Ground down by war, thinned by disease and facing famine as a result, humans and their allies could mount no effective defense, and the yuan-ti spared not a one. With poison, blade and foulest magic, they slaughtered every warmblood they could find, leaving cities as boneyards and relentlessly pursuing every trace of their enemies.

Now the palaces and cathedrals are piled high with bare-gnawed skulls, and the yuan-ti are hard at work making the empty cities their own. Coldbloods and scaled folk of every kind have a place in the great yuan-ti empire—but as servants and laborers, with the yuan-ti as the warriors and masters their birthright demands. A few scattered, mongrel tribes survive at the fringes of the rising empire, but the yuan-ti have every confidence that they will deal with these sad creatures soon enough—and then all the world will be theirs, as it was before, and shall ever be again.


Warforged Resistance

Developed as living weapons in the last stages of the final war, the warforged were immune to the savage plague which followed, and now find themselves the only remaining progeny of their creators.

Although some warforged abandoned their units to seek their destiny elsewhere, many others, already in the habit of imitating human life, have taken up the mantle of humanity’s descendants. Occupying a scatter of cities on the far edge of the yuan-ti empire, these warforged maintain the culture, faith and ideals of their human forebears, venerating the same gods and keeping the cities in solid repair.

Some of these warforged believe that their purpose is to keep human civilization intact until the last humans return to reclaim their lost world. Other warforged believe that they can best honor the memory of their fallen creators by keeping their customs and traditions alive. But whatever their reasons, all the city-living warforged are united in the belief that they have been given a gift—and that the yuan-ti have no right to take it.

So as the yuan-ti reach out their claws to erase the very memory of humans from the world, the warforged strive tirelessly to preserve and defend that memory, and with it their own right to survival and self-determination. And these warforged are no mere mindless caretakers: from warforged clerics sustaining the faith of the gods they learned to worship, to warforged wizards researching new forms of arcane magic, they honor the best of humanity while exploring the best of themselves.


Killoren Resurgence

With the elves exterminated, the killoren unexpectedly find themselves in the role of the last defenders of the wild places of the world. Although the humans and their kindred are gone, there are many others who would pillage and despoil the living forest—chief among them the yuan-ti themselves, forever hunting any possible survivors of the warmblood races, and all too quick to torture and murder any fey they suspect of harboring refugees.

As changeable as the wind and tough as a young oak, the killoren have discovered they are more than a match for the yuan-ti, especially when fighting for their lives in their own forest home. The centaurs are too few, the naiads too timid, and the dryads too limited to be effective on a broad scale; and so the killoren have become the de facto guardians for all the places the elves once kept hidden and safe.

Aided by a handful of warforged druids, the killoren hold the line against the yuan-ti, protecting fey wilderness and adding to their territory as opportunity allows. All the vast fields and estates of human lands are overgrown with young trees and fresh green, and as the killoren explore these reforested areas they find much to their advantage. Alone among the free races left in the world, the killoren are not only holding their own, but growing in numbers, and on this new stage they are becoming ever more assertive.


Goliath Independence

Fierce defenders of their mountain homes, from ancient times the goliath tribes held themselves apart from humans and their allies, and thus were never drawn into their final wars. Although the yuan-ti have nothing but contempt for goliaths, seeing them as clumsy mockeries of the hated humans, the new lords of the world are not so adept at navigating the rocky slopes, and their few forays into the goliaths’ terrain have been all but annihilated.

Isolated as they are, the goliaths have yet to fully comprehend the extent of the destruction of human realms—nor the ambition of those who slaughtered them. Nor do the goliaths feel any inclination to enter into alliance with the other surviving races; as far as the goliaths are concerned, they have no need, proudly self-sufficient and amply defended by the mountain-heights. As long as the mountains stand, the goliaths are convinced they will endure as well, and so far they have rebuffed all entreaties from the killoren and the warforged to make common cause.

[Thurbane]

I would imagine Giants would become a more dominant force. I would say Fey too, but they seems to stick pretty much to their own environs.


We need to know how humanoids were wiped out. Was there a humanoid death bomb? Was there a way? Did some fool wake up great Cthulhu? Depending on the method the world will look very different.

Maybe just assume some Rapture style event in recent history?


Additionally, will there be any humanoids remaining in isolated time locks? Temporal Stasis, stored Clones, Quintessence pools, True Ressurrected slain undead, etc?

Or has the gameworld become one truly inhospitable to the humanoid type via divine mandate or a subtle rewriting of the in-universe rules for how lifeforce is granted to the living or something huge like that?

This does raise the question of undead. Are they going to be wondering around? Are there going to be undead cities with ghosts (I think someone mentioned ghosts) wandering around? Are there vampires burried deep in the earth? What about a lich or 2? There would need to be something involved to stop Divine Intervention from preventing the wiping out of all humanoid races.

I would say undead such as Ghouls etc. still exist, but not templates that are applied to Humanoids. Vampires can still exist, because Monstrous Humanoids are still viable Vampires.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Thurbane
Maybe just assume some Rapture style [e]vent in recent history?

Hm. My scenario imagines a more down-to-earth series of events.


Originally Posted by Thurbane
I would say undead such as Ghouls etc. still exist, but not templates that are applied to Humanoids. Vampires can still exist, because Monstrous Humanoids are still viable Vampires.

What about vampires, ghouls, ghosts, etc. that had human origins, and which have been keeping to their lairs through all the troubles?

[Thurbane]

Hm. My scenario imagines a more down-to-earth series of events.

If there is a different series of events you'd imagined, that's fine too.


What about vampires, ghouls, ghosts, etc. that had human origins, and which have been keeping to their lairs through all the troubles?

That's another possibility.

Really, I'm happy to go with the flow of hypotheticals that make sense.

[unseenmage]

...

That's another possibility.

Really, I'm happy to go with the flow of hypotheticals that make sense.
For the humanoid extinction or for the state of ex-humanoid undead?

[Thurbane]

For the humanoid extinction or for the state of ex-humanoid undead?

Either/both...

It's purely a hypothetical exercise at the moment.

I may run a campaign based on this at some point in the future.

[Mike Miller]

This thread has really caught my attention. I'm already trying to imagine my next campaign without humanoids. It feels like high fantasy without them. I feel like big cities would have buildings such that small, medium, and large creatures would generally be accommodated.

[Palanan]

On a related note, are raptorans considered humanoids or monstrous humanoids?

I looked in my hardcopy Races of the Wild, but didn't see it specified in the raptoran section. Are they humanoids by default?

[Mike Miller]

On a related note, are raptorans considered humanoids or monstrous humanoids?

I looked in my hardcopy Races of the Wild, but didn't see it specified in the raptoran section. Are they humanoids by default?

The archives (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050106b&page=1)don't specify either. By the comparisons to humans, I would guess it was their intention to make them humanoid. I don't think it is defined RAW though.

[Mechalich]

On a related note, are raptorans considered humanoids or monstrous humanoids?

I looked in my hardcopy Races of the Wild, but didn't see it specified in the raptoran section. Are they humanoids by default?

Raptorans are humanoids - there are sample statblocks in Races of the Wild for Raptoran characters that use the Humanoid type descriptor.

[unseenmage]

Either/both...

It's purely a hypothetical exercise at the moment.

I may run a campaign based on this at some point in the future.
I feel like there'd be fewer metaphysical hoops to jump through if the humanoids just never existed.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Mechalich
Raptorans are humanoids - there are sample statblocks in Races of the Wild for Raptoran characters that use the Humanoid type descriptor.

Good catch on the statblocks; I didn't think to look past the main section on racial traits.

:smallsigh:

[Nifft]

Hmm, so Eberron.

The Quori (incarnate nightmares) succeed in whatever they're doing to Sarlona, and bring about a union between Dal Quor (the plane of dreams) and the physical minds of dreaming humans. However, thanks to ancient dragon magic the union doesn't allow the dreamscape to intrude into the real world -- instead it ejects all humanoids into Dal Quor, where they have a bad time.


When the world wakes up the next day, there are no humanoids.

- Humanoid infrastructure is already in place, including high-tech stuff like the lightning rail and elemental airships. Generally this pre-fab stuff is sized for humanoids, which might make non-humanoid interactions a bit interesting.

- Warforged have a very solid reason to exist.

- Aberrations like Daelkyr Half-Blood have a very solid reason to exist, too.

- Monstrous humanoids have a few known civilizations or regions of control.

- Yuan-ti are a thing, but also Shulassakar (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040920a), which are happy nice Couatl-based snake people. Similar mechanics, but a much more benevolent spin.

- Giants had an advanced civilization. There are Cyclopean ruins sized for them in Xen'drik. With humanoids gone, giants may rise again.

- There's a whole continent of dragons who might decide that Dragonwrought Kobolds are better than having no servitors at all, and decided to populate some regions with such artificially modified critters -- or even decided to create a species of Dragonwrought Kobolds which breeds true, since there are no more regular Kobolds.

[liquidformat]

Raptorans are humanoids - there are sample statblocks in Races of the Wild for Raptoran characters that use the Humanoid type descriptor.

Yep same reason humans can be confirmed as humanoid even though it is never expressly stated outside a stat block.

Granted there are quite a few 'humanoids' that I find weird being considered humanoids. All the were-creatures for starters animal(magical beast)+ humanoid is clearly monstrous humanoid. Same with all the lizardfolk and gnolls, raptoran, as well as a lot of the water based races. Seriously if you are half fish half humanoid I don't care which half ends up being the 'humanoid' half you aint humanoid!

[Particle_Man]

I know you said nor racial/template classes, but aasimar, feytouched, and tiefling all have progressions you don't actually have to take levels in.

So there could be a beguiler race taking the beguiler class? :smallsmile:

[Particle_Man]

Shadows would exist but be unable to create spawn.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hmm, so Eberron.

The Quori (incarnate nightmares) succeed in whatever they're doing to Sarlona, and bring about a union between Dal Quor (the plane of dreams) and the physical minds of dreaming humans. However, thanks to ancient dragon magic the union doesn't allow the dreamscape to intrude into the real world -- instead it ejects all humanoids into Dal Quor, where they have a bad time.


When the world wakes up the next day, there are no humanoids.

- Humanoid infrastructure is already in place, including high-tech stuff like the lightning rail and elemental airships. Generally this pre-fab stuff is sized for humanoids, which might make non-humanoid interactions a bit interesting.

- Warforged have a very solid reason to exist.

- Aberrations like Daelkyr Half-Blood have a very solid reason to exist, too.

- Monstrous humanoids have a few known civilizations or regions of control.

- Yuan-ti are a thing, but also Shulassakar (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040920a), which are happy nice Couatl-based snake people. Similar mechanics, but a much more benevolent spin.

- Giants had an advanced civilization. There are Cyclopean ruins sized for them in Xen'drik. With humanoids gone, giants may rise again.

- There's a whole continent of dragons who might decide that Dragonwrought Kobolds are better than having no servitors at all, and decided to populate some regions with such artificially modified critters -- or even decided to create a species of Dragonwrought Kobolds which breeds true, since there are no more regular Kobolds.How about elves, who don't sleep or dream? Or all the humanoids that weren't asleep at that moment? Or adventurers out on the planes that aren't connected to Dal Quor? And why does it affect regular kobolds but not Dragonwrought kobolds? Or half-humanoid creatures with outsider (Otherworldly) or monstrous humanoid or fey or whatever as their type?

Also, illithids would have to start creating those monstrous things that you get when you implant a tadpole in a non-human, like brain-eaters and similar. They would be none too happy about that.

Speaking of, what happens if one tries to create an illithid from a once-human elan?

[Nifft]

How about elves, who don't sleep or dream? Elves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#elves) are immune to magical sleep effects. Can you find something which says they can't sleep, and also that they can't dream?

Just so you know ahead of time: Drow sleep poison will affect Elves, for example, since it's not a magical effect -- elves can and do sleep.


Or all the humanoids that weren't asleep at that moment? What moment?


Or adventurers out on the planes that aren't connected to Dal Quor? If they're Humanoid, they're gone.


And why does it affect regular kobolds but not Dragonwrought kobolds? The effect is centered on the category Humans, because it's targeted at Sarlona. All creatures sufficiently like Humans got hit. What is sufficiently like a human? Any creature of the Humanoid type, obviously.

It's right in the type name: Humanoid.


Or half-humanoid creatures with Outsider or monstrous humanoid or fey or whatever as their type? Apparently they're sufficiently different.


I mean, you know the thread's premise, right? We're looking for ways to bring about that premise, and we're looking at the consequences of a world in which the thread's premise is valid.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Nifft
Can you find something which says they can't sleep, and also that they can't dream?

From the 3.5 PHB, p. 15:

“Elves do not sleep, as members of the other common races do. Instead, an elf meditates in a deep trance for 4 hours a day…. While meditating, an elf dreams, though these dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice.”

So Max is correct that elves don’t sleep, and their “dreams” aren’t actually dreams at all, with no connection to the Plane of Dreams.


Originally Posted by Nifft
Drow sleep poison will affect Elves, for example, since it's not a magical effect -- elves can and do sleep.

See above; they do not. Drow sleep poison affects elves not because of sleep, but because it’s poison. It has nothing to do with ordinary sleep, but rather rendering the target unconscious. "Sleep poison" is a colloquial term, no more.

[Nifft]

(snip)

Interesting, looks like the SRD changed Elves in a significant way from the PHB by removing that flavor-text.

That means Elves disappeared for a different reason, and their undying councilors (Deathless type) are probably interested in hiring the PCs to investigate.

Good plot hook.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Nifft
Interesting, looks like the SRD changed Elves in a significant way from the PHB by removing that flavor-text.

This is why I never use the SRD as a primary source, because it leaves things out.

In my 3.5 groups we were always aware that elves approached sleep differently, which meant that the elven members of the party had the lion’s share of the watch rotation. To me, they lose something inherently elven if they’re not trancing four hours a night.

.

[Troacctid]

You need to dream to reach Dal Quor because it's not connected to Eberron anymore. If it were reconnected, then that shouldn't be an issue. You could just planeshift there normally.

[Nifft]

You need to dream to reach Dal Quor because it's not connected to Eberron anymore. If it were reconnected, then that shouldn't be an issue. You could just planeshift there normally.

Cool.

So after they auto-snarfed the dreaming humanoids, they manually (... tenticalually?) picked up the Elves.

[martixy]

For the humanoid extinction or for the state of ex-humanoid undead?

But what if there was no extinction. What if... get this - there NEVER WERE any humanoids to begin with?

In any case, I myself run a monstrous campaign, though I did not go so far as to eliminate humanoids entirely(went for kitchen sink setting), but I did shove all literal humans in a single island in the middle of the ocean. My party currently has no humanoids(by type anyway).

I can report on the following 2 problems from my personal experience:
1. My players can't get out of the humanoid mindset. While I'm not a mind-reader, I get the distinct impression that in their heads, its all humans talking to humans.
2. It's difficult finding art to go along with the game. I like to use visual aids, but most character art made is humanoids, so it compounds the above problem.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

But what if there was no extinction. What if... get this - there NEVER WERE any humanoids to begin with?

In any case, I myself run a monstrous campaign, though I did not go so far as to eliminate humanoids entirely(went for kitchen sink setting), but I did shove all literal humans in a single island in the middle of the ocean. My party currently has no humanoids(by type anyway).

I can report on the following 2 problems from my personal experience:
1. My players can't get out of the humanoid mindset. While I'm not a mind-reader, I get the distinct impression that in their heads, its all humans talking to humans.
2. It's difficult finding art to go along with the game. I like to use visual aids, but most character art made is humanoids, so it compounds the above problem.One thing the "us-vs-the-slaver-humans" game did well was keep this problem to a minimum. The game kept the focus on the fact that we weren't human (or elf, or dwarf, etc), since we were explicitly anti-human (for the most part, anyway; my character was raised with human children and understood that they weren't inherently bad, just that the racism was very heavily institutionalized).

[Particle_Man]

One could do a "pre-humanoid" cosmic campaign where you play various outsiders and their servants and there is an idea some have (and others oppose) about the potential creation of a new type of life form . . . one with a soul that separates from its body . . .