If you take zero damage from Poison Needle...do you get poisoned?

[Wakrob]

My rogue has the Dungeon Delver feat so I resist trap damage.

If a poisoned needle does 1 damage which I resist to zero damage....should I have to save versus the poison?

Also if I did get poisoned would that count as a trap save? Cause Dungeon Delver gives advantage on saves versus traps.

Wakrob

[Wraith]

It would depend on what kind of poison it was. They are defined by their application - Ingested, Inhaled, Contact or Injury. So taking 0 damage from an Injury poison wouldn't apply the effects because it hasn't caused an injury, but it would if it was a Contact poison because it has touched you.

And I would usually say Yes to the second question, also; The trap is the one who inflicted the poison upon you, so you're being damaged by the trap.
That's probably down to your own DM's decision in context though, as the definition of a trap is that it inflicts damage "unexpectedly or by surprise" so if you find the trap, screw around with it and get hurt by some way other than stepping into it while fully aware that it's there, then it might not be considered a trap but rather just a mechanism.

[Lord Vukodlak]

An injury poison requires an injury. So under normal circumstances I would rule that if the damage is reduced to zero you don't get poisoned. Unless it was a contact poison... in which case make your save with advantage.

[Millstone85]

If a poisoned needle does 1 damage which I resist to zero damage....should I have to save versus the poison?I would say yes. Poison damage and the poisoned condition are usually considered separately.

Edit: Also, the needle does 1 piercing + 2d10 poison damage, which can at best be reduced to 1 poison damage. Unless what you are really saying is that reducing the piercing damage to 0 would logically mean 0 poison damage too. That falls outside of RAW.


Also if I did get poisoned would that count as a trap save? Cause Dungeon Delver gives advantage on saves versus traps.I would say yes. Or rather, the saving throw to not get poisoned would be the trap save here.


It would depend on what kind of poison it was. They are defined by their application - Ingested, Inhaled, Contact or Injury.I don't think the description of Poison Needle assumes the use of these more sophisticated rules.

[MThurston]

What do you have that reduces damage?

[Mith]

Also, does resistance allow for you to reduce to 0 damage, or just to 1?

[Millstone85]

What do you have that reduces damage?
My rogue has the Dungeon Delver feat so I resist trap damage.They said it.


Also, does resistance allow for you to reduce to 0 damage, or just to 1?
Can damage be reduced to 0 by resistance or another form of damage reduction? There is no damage minimum in the rules, so it is possible to deal 0 damage with an attack, a spell, or another effect.
You take 0 damage. Always round down, unless something in the game says otherwise. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/606187051151540224)1 damage, resisted, would be 0.

[Angelalex242]

What about the Heavy Armor Master feat?

In this case, the needle is essentially bouncing off your full plate armor.

Does poison still work then?

[MThurston]

What about the Heavy Armor Master feat?

In this case, the needle is essentially bouncing off your full plate armor.

Does poison still work then?

Here is my take on it.

You have damage reduction and not damage immunity. By getting hit, you took damage. Even though it maybe reduced to zero, you were still hit.

So For example a dart hit you for 5 damage, reduced to zero, the dart is removed from your skin at 0 damage. If a save is needed, I would then give you advantage.

You don't have super skin, just resistance to traps.

On another note. If a trap made you fall 100 feet onto spikes. You would have resistance to the spikes and not to the fall. It wouldn't matter in this case but you get the point.

[Mith]

They said it.

1 damage, resisted, would be 0.

Fair enough. I am away from books, so I couldn't recall if I read somewhere that resistance always has you take 1 damage, to be contrasted with immunity to an effect.

[sithlordnergal]

What about the Heavy Armor Master feat?

In this case, the needle is essentially bouncing off your full plate armor.

Does poison still work then?

I always saw Heavy Armor Master looking kind of like this. You're still getting hit, but it just doesn't bother you. Since you are still being hit, the poison takes effect

https://s3.amazonaws.com/AZComics/comic299.png

[Tiadoppler]

The initial effect of a Poison Needle is not (1 Piercing damage) followed by (2d10 Poison damage).

The initial effect of a Poison Needle is (2d10 Poison damage + 1 Piercing damage).

By RAW, neither of those two effects are contingent upon the other one succeeding. Negating the piercing damage does not negate or prevent the poison damage, and vice versa.

Is this RAI? I'd say so. HP is arbitrary. Once the Needle hits the target, it might very well inject its poison, scratch the skin, or spray contact poison on the victim, despite the resisted damage not being enough to call it "1 HP worth of injury"





A similar scenario:

A PC is attacking a monster who is immune to non-magical damage. The PC's sword has a fire enchantment and deals 1d6 Piercing + 1d4 Fire damage. The PC hits with his attack, and the monster negates all the Piercing damage, but is still able to be damaged by the Fire damage, because the Fire damage is part of the 'hit' effect.

[Naanomi]

Our table had a similar question with Heavy Armor Master and a snake bite

[Angelalex242]

Personally, I viewed it as the needle using an 'injury poison'. If the needle does no injury (Cause you're wearing an armored gauntlet and it hits metal and not skin...), then how can it poison you?

Or, if a goblin hits you with a shortbow arrow (d6) and rolls a 3, the arrow bounces off your armor as if he'd missed outright.

[Wakrob]

Just so you guys know this particular trap was a save versus Con for some effect afterwards. Im not sure what because I made my save.

I did not realize 'Poisoned Needle' was a set thing in the DM guide. Just happen to be the words I choose.

Wakrob

[Knaight]

Personally, I viewed it as the needle using an 'injury poison'. If the needle does no injury (Cause you're wearing an armored gauntlet and it hits metal and not skin...), then how can it poison you?

Injury and damage aren't quite the same here. If you poke someone with a polonium tipped umbrella they might not even notice - it certainly isn't severe enough to model as damage. That doesn't mean that it didn't break the skin, which is all it takes for the radiation poisoning.

For armor these would generally work out about the same, but not necessarily for other cases. It's an edge case where GM adjudication is likely to be useful.

[Man_Over_Game]

Public Service Announcement:


There is a difference between effects that state "When you are hit" vs. "When you take damage". With "When you are hit", damage reduction will not prevent the poison. With "When you take damage", damage reduction will prevent the poison.

Thank you.

For further reference: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/95777/does-a-zero-damage-attack-still-count-as-a-hit

[Lord Vukodlak]

I decided to look up poisons in the DMG, lets look at the relevant section.


Injury: Injury poison can be applied to Weapons, Ammunition, trap Components, and other Objects that deal piercing or slashing damage and remains potent until delivered through a wound or washed off. A creature that takes piercing or slashing damage from an object coated with the poison is exposed to its effects.

By RAW if its an injury poison you have to take damage. With a contact poison it has to be exposed skin. So unless the needle was coated with a contact poison you'd take no damage if the needle was reduced to zero damage.

[Millstone85]

Just so you guys know this particular trap was a save versus Con for some effect afterwards. Im not sure what because I made my save.

I did not realize 'Poisoned Needle' was a set thing in the DM guide. Just happen to be the words I choose.

Wakrob
I decided to look up poisons in the DMG, lets look at the relevant section.

By RAW if its an injury poison you have to take damage. With a contact poison it has to be exposed skin. So unless the needle was coated with a contact poison you'd take no damage if the needle was reduced to zero damage.As I said before, I am not convinced this is the relevant section.

Here is the text of Poison Needle.
Poison Needle
Mechanical trap
A poisoned needle is hidden within a treasure chest's lock, or in something else that a creature might open. Opening the chest without the proper key causes the needle to spring out, delivering a dose of poison.
When the trap is triggered, the needle extends 3 inches straight out from the lock. A creature within range takes 1 piercing damage and 11 (2d10) poison damage, and must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or be poisoned for 1 hour.
A successful DC 20 Intelligence (Investigation) check allows a character to deduce the trap's presence from alterations made to the lock to accommodate the needle. A successful DC 15 Dexterity check using thieves' tools disarms the trap, removing the needle from the lock. Unsuccessfully attempting to pick the lock triggers the trap.

Note that there is in fact a Constitution save for some effect afterwards, so this particular trap may well be the one we are discussing here.

In which case, I believe its rules here are self-sufficient. There is no need to reference another section of the DMG.

[Spore]

Why make a major case out of it. DM decision and basta. the more precise your trap guy describes his actions, the more precise you can decide what happens. If he defaults to "I disable the trap"

A more lengthy explanation is:
You gain resistance to the damage of traps. But sticking yourself with a needle would not constitute for a 1 HP damage. If it were this way, a tailor's apprentice would regularly kill himself during the work day. Thus, all rules technicalities aside, the needle hit you and you took damage. 0 to be precise (not nil, but zero because character_hit = true). So you are poisoned.

[Lord Vukodlak]

As I said before, I am not convinced this is the relevant section.

Here is the text of Poison Needle.

Note that there is in fact a Constitution save for some effect afterwards, so this particular trap may well be the one we are discussing here.

In which case, I believe its rules here are self-sufficient. There is no need to reference another section of the DMG.

Normally a PC can’t reduce damage to zero so in this situation it becomes relevant. If a pc decides to pick up the needle after the trap has been disarmed if it’s a contact or injury poison again becomes relevant.
Venomious creatures in the MM word the damage for their attacks in the same fashion as the trap damage x damage plus x poison damage.
Should a giant scorpion be able to sting and posion a werewolf because the rules under the scorpion are “self suffcent”.

Let’s ignore traps for a moment and ask the simple question. If I coat a dagger with and injury poison and stab someone with it for zero damage are they poisoned. By RAW the answer is no.

How does this relate to the trap? Consistency. If it doesn’t work for weapons it shouldn’t work for traps either. So long as we are dealing with an injury poison.

[R.Shackleford]

I always saw Heavy Armor Master looking kind of like this. You're still getting hit, but it just doesn't bother you. Since you are still being hit, the poison takes effect

https://s3.amazonaws.com/AZComics/comic299.png

What's fun is that HP is a combination of mental, physical, and luck. Heavy Armor Master could just as easily make you feel luckier which is why you take less damage. The armor makes you feel invicible even if you aren't.

Which is the same as Uncharted, funny enough, people recebtly was talking about how "new" of an idea this is... But Gygax has the earliest quotes i've found on HP not being just meat.

Uncharted Article: www.thegamer.com/uncharted-nathan-drake-hp-luck-death-health/amp/

[Angelalex242]

I believe, then, that the default poison needle trap in the DMG seems to be a contact poison.

[Telok]

It look like, RAW, the needle doesn't even have to touch you. If you're within 3 inches when it goes off then you're poisoned.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Our table had a similar question with Heavy Armor Master and a snake bite

A hit is someting that hit you, if you are coverd with armor then it go pass it.

[Beckett]

I agree with Millstone85 and Tiadoppler. It is not a contengent effect on the 1 Piercing being effective, but rather is 2d10+1 all together. Avoiding that 1 Piercing does not negate the 2d10 Poison for free, nor the following Save. The attack failing to hit, however, does.

[R.Shackleford]

A hit is someting that hit you, if you are coverd with armor then it go pass it.

A hit just means it got passed your armor class, it doesn't have to mean that it made physical contact with you.

Depends on how the DM describes it.

Game terminology gets funky and isn't always consistent with the real world terminology.

A hit in D&D could mean that you lose a bit of luck or you're mentally drained.

So, a snake could "hit" your armor class and deal damage, but that damage is actually just your will to live lowering.

I admit, not a lot of DMs seem to put in the effort, but HP isn't just meat.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

A hit just means it got passed your armor class, it doesn't have to mean that it made physical contact with you.

Depends on how the DM describes it.

Game terminology gets funky and isn't always consistent with the real world terminology.

A hit in D&D could mean that you lose a bit of luck or you're mentally drained.

So, a snake could "hit" your armor class and deal damage, but that damage is actually just your will to live lowering.

I admit, not a lot of DMs seem to put in the effort, but HP isn't just meat.
I did some fighting with armor(I have to say that fullplate is hard to use) and you don't care for hits that doesn't hurt you.

Only a hit strong(for B damage) enough to pass your armor or accurate(for S/P damage) enough that you feel the hit can hurt your will and body.

I will be happy to know if it is hard to understand as English isn't my language.


Edit:
A hit that almost hurt me or just pass be my very close will make my will stronger as I was able to avoid a dangerous hit.

[R.Shackleford]

I did some fighting with armor(I have to say that fullplate is hard to use) and you don't care for hits that doesn't hurt you.

Only a hit strong(for B damage) enough to pass your armor or accurate(for S/P damage) enough that you feel the hit can hurt your will and body.

I will be happy to know if it is hard to understand as English isn't my language.


Real life =/= D&D.

In D&D hit points is a combination of physical hits, mental strain, and luck.

This is Rules as Written.

So while in real life it works one way, in the fantasy game it works differently.

Think of it like this for a real life analogy. When an attack hits your armor, you have to work harder. Movement, bracing yourself, etc... That tires you out faster. You didn't get injured, but you did get tired. That tired feeling is a loss of hit points.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Real life =/= D&D.

In D&D hit points is a combination of physical hits, mental strain, and luck.

This is Rules as Written.

So while in real life it works one way, in the fantasy game it works differently.

Think of it like this for a real life analogy. When an attack hits your armor, you have to work harder. Movement, bracing yourself, etc... That tires you out faster. You didn't get injured, but you did get tired. That tired feeling is a loss of hit points.

A good point, but that will mean that hevier armor will lower your HP as it will make you work harder.

I think geting tired in D&D is refresent by fatigue.

I don't know if 5e removed Nonlethal Damage(as I can't find any information on it) but if it do then I have to agree with you on what hit point is.

I still think that if some attack pass your armor class it should hit no meter what, we roll for damage in order to see how hard it hit=the physical hits and mental strain it afflict to the target.

A snake bite shuld pass the armor and make contact as it not a B wepone.
It may not do any damage or only mental one(a venomes snake bite isn't for damaging and pircing the skin isn't dengeros enough to make physical damage but it is very good for afflicting mental steain).

[Dalebert]

I was going to bring up this...


Injury and damage aren't quite the same here. If you poke someone with a polonium tipped umbrella they might not even notice - it certainly isn't severe enough to model as damage. That doesn't mean that it didn't break the skin, which is all it takes for the radiation poisoning.

and this...


A hit is someting that hit you, if you are coverd with armor then it go pass it.

One point of dmg is a lot. On non-adventurer, three or four would drop them. Am I taking four hp of dmg when I get my monthly four shots for allergies? So you can definitely have your skin pierced by a needle for zero dmg. Poisonous snakes do it all the time. They pierce and inject poison doing zero piercing dmg.

Therefore, I think what DMs need to ask themselves is how powerful they want these abilities to be. Do you want them to be able to completely negate the poison dmg? Is that more than the ability was intended to do? Then just say the needle pierced the skin but not enough to do piercing dmg because that's completely reasonable.

On the other hand, if you don't think it's overpowered, just rule the needle didn't even pierce the skin. No biggy.

[Tanarii]

One point of dmg is a lot. On non-adventurer, three or four would drop them.
A one pt trap that skewers a lvl 1 Con 10 Mage right through the hand, and bleeds prodigiously might not even scratch a level 10 Barbarian that snatches his hand out of the way at the last second. (But still loses 1 hp and possibly 2d10 more.) the in-game "fiction" of hps is fluid. And of course highly contentious. :smallamused:

[Naanomi]

0 piercing damage, sure... it could be substantial and deliver poison. But what if I had resistance and heavy armor master... is -3 piercing damage substantial? What if I was flat immune to piercing damage? Isn’t there some point where the needle just can’t pierce Superman’s skin (or fullplate as the case may be)

[Dalebert]

A one pt trap that skewers a lvl 1 Con 10 Mage right through the hand, and bleeds prodigiously might not even scratch a level 10 Barbarian that snatches his hand out of the way at the last second. (But still loses 1 hp and possibly 2d10 more.) the in-game "fiction" of hps is fluid. And of course highly contentious. :smallamused:

Agree and it doesn't change my point at all. One hit point is still a lot in the sense that it represents placing you closer to death by some non-zero measure. My point remains that you can get pierced by a needle and not take any dmg in the mechanical terms of hp. It's just an extremely trivial wound; not enough to say a commoner is now 25% closer to DEATH because he has a tiny hole in his finger that will maybe bleed a drop of blood and won't even hurt in 2 minutes. Absent poison, that needle did not (necessarily) significantly hurt anyone, not even a commoner, regardless of if it broke the skin.


Isn’t there some point where the needle just can’t pierce Superman’s skin (or fullplate as the case may be)

Having clearly established that you can take 0 hp of dmg but still have your skin broken, then no. You're not superman. You're skin isn't impenetrable and your armor has chinks. In particular, your gauntlets need to be flexible enough for you to use your hands. There's leather or maybe chain in large spots and a needle in particular needs only a very tiny gap.

[Tanarii]

Absent poison, that needle did not (necessarily) significantly hurt anyone, not even a commoner, regardless of if it broke the skin.



Having clearly established that you can take 0 hp of dmg but still have your skin broken, then no. You're not superman. You're skin isn't impenetrable and your armor has chinks. In particular, your gauntlets need to be flexible enough for you to use your hands. There's leather or maybe chain in large spots and a needle in particular needs only a very tiny gap.
I agree. Really a poison needle trap should only do the poison damage.

[Dalebert]

I agree. Really a poison needle trap should only do the poison damage.

It really should. Throwing in that 1 hp for just a needle is what created all this controversy in the first place.

[Naanomi]

Having clearly established that you can take 0 hp of dmg but still have your skin broken, then no. You're not superman. You're skin isn't impenetrable and your armor has chinks. In particular, your gauntlets need to be flexible enough for you to use your hands. There's leather or maybe chain in large spots and a needle in particular needs only a very tiny gap.
So no monster in the game can be totally immune to non-magic piercing damage, it is infeasible and unimaginable that a creature in a fantasy universe may exist that a needle just cannot pierce... all of them just reduce it to zero and are still stabbed every time, and the poison flows freely. Man, killing werewolves is way easier than I thought; simple poisons are easier to manufacture and procure than silvered weapons for the peasantry

[Dalebert]

So no monster in the game can be totally immune to non-magic piercing damage, it is infeasible and unimaginable that a creature in a fantasy universe may exist that a needle just cannot pierce... all of them just reduce it to zero and are still stabbed every time, and the poison flows freely. Man, killing werewolves is way easier than I thought; simple poisons are easier to manufacture and procure than silvered weapons for the peasantry

You're now strawmanning me. You were talking about having really good armor, Heavy Armor Master, and maybe piercing resistance.

So let me respond to all the new scenarios you just introduced. If someone is actually IMMUNE to piercing dmg? Yes, I could see that. If you were under the Invulnerability spell, I'd say the needle can't pierce your skin (but you're also immune to poison dmg anyway). Resistance just means you don't take as much dmg. That to me is pretty irrelevant as to whether it's possible for a needle to break your skin when it's already doing zero dmg to anyone else anyway and yet breaking their skin.

Most importantly, my main point was to just explain why it's perfectly reasonable, if and only if the DM doesn't want those features to be that powerful, to say a needle can pierce your skin without doing hp of piercing dmg. The idea is the DM might not think you should also be able to completely avoid certain poison attacks. The same idea would apply to poisonous snakes, as I said. Should heavy armor masters be immune to the poison from poisonous snakes? That's for the DM to decide based on balance in his game. I have merely described the tools to explain it in a perfectly reasonable way. It's already hard for them to hit in the first place based on the high AC from heavy armor and hitting implies finding a chink in the armor.

As for werewolves, my fluff for them has always been that you do penetrate their skin but then the wound heals instantly as the blade is removed. This is fairly in line with how you see werewolves in movies. You might see them get riddled with non-silver bullets and have holes in them but they keep going like it's not a big deal. Or it even wounds and hurts them but they just can't die from it (Stephen King's Silver Bullet). So in their case, I would still say they can be poisoned by the needle.

[Naanomi]

I would say it was an attempt at reduction ad absurdum (perhaps a poor one), not a straw man... but the reasoning was the same as the Superman example in any case, at some point some monster is going to conceptually impenetrable by the small needle (whether that is represented mechanically by damage reduction, immunity, hardness, whatever); and as interpreted above the poison would still clearly effect them

[Dalebert]

...at some point some monster is going to conceptually impenetrable by the small needle (whether that is represented mechanically by damage reduction, immunity, hardness, whatever); and as interpreted above the poison would still clearly effect them

Like what? What are you thinking of? I've already conceded that if I don't think your skin can be penetrated (like invulnerability spell but that's the only thing off the top of my head) then the poison wouldn't affect you.

As I personally interpret werewolves it would but that depends on the DM and how they interpret it. The fluff isn't explained. But I think my interpretation is not that unusual. Not many people imagine bullets or blades bouncing off of werewolves as if they're superman. In monster movie after monster movie, whether it's werewolves, vampires, zombies, whatever, they get stabbed and it just doesn't bother them much. I can't recall a single fictional werewolf that was impenetrable.

[Naanomi]

Then let’s not say werewolf... this is a fantasy world; the possibilities are literally endless. Imagine a demon lord (or demi-God or whatever) who all non-magical effects bounce off of.. or pass through.... or a Baldur situation where only specific objects can harm him... or someone encased in 5’ of molten steel armor with no gaps, mechanically represented by damage resistance/hardness threshold effect

[Knaight]

I agree. Really a poison needle trap should only do the poison damage.

Agreed. It's one thing if the poison needle trap is using a foot long knitting needle sharpened to a razor point, but a conventional needle has no business doing actual damage. It's more absurd there than it is with caltrops.

[Angelalex242]

In the case of Plate Armor, the Paladin's probably not disarming traps, but he might well get bitten by a poisonous creature.

Heavy Armor Master is noted as a 'diminishing returns' feat...but it would be a lot better if it DID block poison damage if it also negated the piercing. That gives it meaning in a world where piercing resistance is almost always better.

[furby076]

i think the needle, knife, arrow, etc has to do at least 1 damage to have the injury poison take effect. No injury, no poison. Pour bleach on your hand, no issue. Inject bleech into your blood stream, big issue

[Tanarii]

Agreed. It's one thing if the poison needle trap is using a foot long knitting needle sharpened to a razor point, but a conventional needle has no business doing actual damage. It's more absurd there than it is with caltrops.
Really it should be an attack roll determine if there's a hit to deliver poison for a needle injection trap, then poison damage automatically if it hits, then save for poisoned status.

It's an attack roll that should determine if the poison is relieved, not doing at least a point of damage.

[Dalebert]

Then let’s not say werewolf... this is a fantasy world; the possibilities are literally endless. Imagine a demon lord (or demi-God or whatever) who all non-magical effects bounce off of.. or pass through.... or a Baldur situation where only specific objects can harm him... or someone encased in 5’ of molten steel armor with no gaps, mechanically represented by damage resistance/hardness threshold effect

Ok, then sure. A demilich too now that it occurs to me. We're mostly talking about hypothetical NPCs that will never be in a situation of triggering a poison needle trap and that will usually be immune to poison anyway, but I'll give it to you. Still the DM's call about how their invulnerability works of course, as to whether their skin is actually penetrated.


It's an attack roll that should determine if the poison is relieved, not doing at least a point of damage.

It's a good idea. That would take heavy armor into account when a dex save wouldn't.

[Mith]

It's a good idea. That would take heavy armor into account when a dex save wouldn't.

In this case, I would probably take a middle ground of a Dex Save, but allow a HAM to use their DR to nullify the piercing damage. The reasoning is that the idea of the trap is that you duck out of the way of a trap, vs. what should be an interplay of attack and defense with attack rolls. However, someone with great skills with Heavy Armour (HAM), can use their reflexes to interpose their armour more effectively with the trap.

Basically I picture the above sort of system allowing a Plate and shield fighter to use their Armour and Shield to reduce damage on a Reflex Save. Rogues have Evasion, and Full Plate and Shield could use their equipment to reduce the damage. Not the Save DC, that still is save, but if there is damage to be taken, you could then reduce it down.


This sort of system may leave folk in the middle hanging, such as light armour Rangers that do not have Evasion, Barbarians have Trap Sense to be more successful at avoiding traps, and a large HP pool if needed.

[MThurston]

SMH.

All this word lawyering!

If you are hit by a poison needle trap, then you are hit. Doesn't matter if it is full plate or naked.

Now the needle does damage so it breaks the skin. Taking no damage from damage reduction has no effect on the piercing part. You would still roll damage for the poison.

So 1+2d8 would be rolled. Now the DM can be nice and say 5 or less means no effect but I would not do that. You have advantage on the roll.

Part of the game is taking damage. Time to suck it up butter cup.

[Naanomi]

Ok, then sure. A demilich too now that it occurs to me. We're mostly talking about hypothetical NPCs that will never be in a situation of triggering a poison needle trap and that will usually be immune to poison anyway, but I'll give it to you. Still the DM's call about how their invulnerability works of course, as to whether their skin is actually penetrated.
Sure, but if we expand the argument... a nontrivial chance that a non-magic arrow coated in purple wurm poison is shot at them; or a ranger’s flying snake pet bites them

I guess... verisimilitude hits me with this. If two people, one naked and one in full plate armor... had a blowgun with a poisoned needle shot at them, it seems like the full plate should be... not immune, but significantly safer. But with stat allocation how it is, if a DEX save is involved he is probably much more vulnerable. MST3K mantra time, I know

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Sure, but if we expand the argument... a nontrivial chance that a non-magic arrow coated in purple wurm poison is shot at them; or a ranger’s flying snake pet bites them

I guess... verisimilitude hits me with this. If two people, one naked and one in full plate armor... had a blowgun with a poisoned needle shot at them, it seems like the full plate should be... not immune, but significantly safer. But with stat allocation how it is, if a DEX save is involved he is probably much more vulnerable. MST3K mantra time, I know

An armored one will have highr AC to block the needle from the blow gun.

A trap is set up in a way that it will pirce the armor of the one triggering it.
No one is activle shoting the needle at him like the blowgun oiption so the trap don't roll for hit.

He gat a save so he can try to avoide the trap.
The DC will tell us how well the trap was set up.

The fact that he have heavy armor will only make it harder to avoid

There is a (fluff) reason for the trap guy to use ligher armor.

[MThurston]

If armor type had any play in traps, the rules would say that plate mail is immune to traps. I have not read that in any rule book.

[Angelalex242]

Plate mail on its own isn't under discussion. We are specifically discussing the feat 'heavy armor master' which reduces all piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage by 3. And then postulating that a poisoned item that fails to do 4 points of physical damage can't then deal poison damage.

[Dalebert]

Yesterday I got my monthly allergy shots, two separate needles in each arm. I posit that despite my skin being pierced, I did NOT take four hp of damage.

[MeeposFire]

Yesterday I got my monthly allergy shots, two separate needles in each arm. I posit that despite my skin being pierced, I did NOT take four hp of damage.

I would posit you did not take even 1 HP in damage.

[MThurston]

Just like a spell, you must make a save.

After making the save, then you take whatever damage is left.

If the failed save says take 1+2d8 damage and paralized. Then you are paralized and if you didnt take any damage, then good for you. You are still paralized.