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arkol
2007-09-17, 02:28 PM
Ok so I wanna allow Hexblades into my new homebrew world but they are kind on the weak side.

As such, and after much searchign around the boards, I decided to give them the following boosts:

Good fortitude saves.
Their bonus feats list includes all fighter bonus feats (selected the same way, ie he must have the requirements) and also Ability Focus (Hexblade Curse).
Light shields don't interfere with their casting.

And finally I wanna boost his curse class feature.....

And here's where I don't knwo exactly where to draw the and require your help.

A nice way to boost it that I read somewhere was that even of a failed save, the curse would work, but only with half the penaltys.

The other way to boost it is to increase it's uses.

Or both.

Obviously this depends on how many uses per day he would get...

X + Cha per day? X being what?
Normal uses + Cha?
Normal uses + Cha + X? X being what?

Alternatively he could get LOTS of uses per day (say.... once per level or something like that), but only be able to affect so many at the same time (half his level?).

So basically what do you think would be fair? Take in account the other boosts I'm already giving them....

Kaelik
2007-09-17, 02:40 PM
Quite Honestly, Light Shield Proficiency is not a boost. It might trick them into taking a shield when they'd be much better off without it. As for the curses, I can't really help much, it all depends on what type of balance you are aiming for.

arkol
2007-09-17, 02:44 PM
Why is it not a boost? They don't have to use it... but the option is there....

Kaelik
2007-09-17, 02:48 PM
Why is it not a boost? They don't have to use it... but the option is there....

It is not a boost because 999 times out of 1000 they will be better off not taking it. But 20 times out of 1000 they will take it just because it is there and they don't realize they are gimping themselves. Net result, Hexblades in your world are worse off.

arkol
2007-09-17, 02:53 PM
Hmmm... I don't mean to offend you or anything but why is the non-shield hexblade so much better then the one with it?

I'm pretty sure you can make effective builds with both versions...

slexlollar89
2007-09-17, 02:55 PM
I think prof with sheilds is cool, and if you dont want to take it, no one makes you. Just because something "gimps" as you call it, doesn't mean it isn't a fun thing to do, and anyway, if people only took useful feats and class abilities, then the feat diligent wouldn't exist.

I'm not familiar with the hexblade curse, but perhaps leave it at normal strenght, and instead allow it to be used against as many targets as wished.

Stam
2007-09-17, 02:56 PM
Give them 1 curse /3 levels or some such (1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th) instead of the ridiculous progression at the moment. Allow a homebrewed feat that gives them +2 curses per day, takeable several times.

Bump their spell progression down a level or two. Most of the minor spells are pretty useless. The 2nd-level ones are decent (Alter Self) and the 4th-level ones are cool (polymorph, cursed blade, enervation). But by the time you get them, they're next to useless compared to the trouble-level in the game.

Boost their spellcasting to "Class levels -3" instead of "Half class levels." (Vampiric Touch is a cool spell...until the 12th-level Hexblade, who can use it all of twice, finds out it only deals 6d6 damage against that dragon.)

My two bits, as I've played them before.

arkol
2007-09-17, 03:00 PM
As in unlimited uses per day?

That sounds a "bit" too powerfull... as they are they have 1 use per day from lvl1 to lvl 4. At lvl5 they gain the second use per day and so on every four levels. Obviously I think this is too little... but unlimited uses is way too much...

EDIT:

Stam that curse progression is only slightly better then the current one. And Iw ould rather not mess with the spells... although I might make the spells full caster level instead of 1/2. Would that be enough in your opinion?

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-17, 03:04 PM
Personally, I would make their curses x/encounter. Considering some groups will fight 1 encounter a day, while another group will fight 4+ encounters a day. This allows them to be just as effective in both groups. Additionally, you might want to increase the progression rate like Stam said.

Kaelik
2007-09-17, 03:06 PM
Hmmm... I don't mean to offend you or anything but why is the non-shield hexblade so much better then the one with it?

I'm pretty sure you can make effective builds with both versions...

A non-Shield Hexblade is better because he is doing significantly more damage from his Weapon, From his Strength, and From his Power Attack, all at the expense of +1 AC (something that hardly matters at all.) Maybe if it was all Shields it might be worth it. But not really. Add in the fact that at a mere 165gp he can get a Mithral Buckler that has no penalties and it makes Light Shields Pretty much obsolete.

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-17, 03:28 PM
if people only took useful feats and class abilities, then the feat diligent wouldn't exist
Umm... that feat effectively doesn't exist outside of Wizards' happy sunshine world where everything is balanced and cozy.

First, I would give them heavier armor proficiencies without reducing their arcane spell failure. Now, they have quite a bit of MAD, which having the option of wearing Mithril Fullplate would help reduce.

They need more gish-like spells (take a look at the Duskblade spell list; most of those would be appropriate and balanced).

They need higher effective caster level along the lines of "Class Level -3" or even just equal to their Hexblade level.

They most importantly need more Curses per day. Maybe start with three and build on that... anything to let them feel secure enough to actually use their signature ability once in a while.

Zim
2007-09-17, 03:38 PM
I would propose doing a merger between 2 base classes: hexblade and duskblade. The duskblade has more of the arcane figher crunch, but the theme is IMO weak (elves use this as a base class? c'mon!). Find a way to work in hexblade curse and spells into the duskblade progression (take out some of the lamer abilities and replace them with curses, mettle etc...). The end result would be the Dexblade or the Heskblade. :smallsmile:

Either that, or allow the curse with the same number per day as listed, only with a bonus use per point of int/cha (whichever is the base stat for their spells). This will allow increased use of their signature ability. I'd also consider making the curse a radius burst effect at higher levels.

Just my rat on a stick...

Stam
2007-09-17, 03:46 PM
Stam that curse progression is only slightly better then the current one. And Iw ould rather not mess with the spells... although I might make the spells full caster level instead of 1/2. Would that be enough in your opinion?
You could give them two curses per day at 1st-level, instead of just one. Then add one per day along that progression line...it gives them one more curse total, and a lot more curses cumulative.

Perhaps treat their Cha score as +10 for the purpose of determining spells per day.

I fully disagree with the suggestion to merge Hexblade and Duskblade. They are entirely different classes.

I think the cumulative effect of these changes should do decently. If you wanted to boost things a little more, just give the Hexblade his bonus feats every 4 levels instead of every 5.

arkol
2007-09-17, 03:55 PM
Ok seems like I will have to mess with the spells as it seems to be an issue of the class...

What's the biggest problem of the spells?

Too weak too late?
Too few?
Low casting level?

Boosting all three categories seems like remaking the class as a whole....

Person_Man
2007-09-17, 05:01 PM
My Homebrew Hexblade:



Hexblade

d12 hit points per level
Full BAB
All Strong Saves
Proficient in simple and martial weapons, and light armor. You ignore the spell failure from any light armor you wear.
4 base Skill Points per level
Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana, the planes), Profession, Ride, Spellcraft, Swim, Use Magic Device.

Cursed Strike (Sp): Whenever a Hexblade confirms a critical hit and deals damage against an enemy, they become subject to the Hexblade's Curse until the end of the encounter. This curse imposes a penalty on all attacks, Saves, ability checks, skill checks, and damage rolls. The penalty is equal to your current Heblade level/2, rounded up (to a maximum of -10 at 19th level). A target that is subject to a cursed strike is entitled to a Will Save (10 + 1/2 Hexblade level + Cha mod) to resist the effect. An enemy that resists the effect becomes immune to cursed strikes from that Hexblade for 24 hours. Multiple Cursed Strikes never stack, even if they are from different Hexblades. Creatures that are normally immune to critical hits are still subject to a Hexblade's Cursed Strike, although they still do not take additional damage from a critical hit.

Bonus Feats: At 6th, 10th, 14th, 18th levels, you gain a bonus feat The bonus feats may be drawn from the following list: Ability Focus, Combat Casting, Improved Familiar, Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, Obtain Familiar, Practiced Spellcaster, Skill Focus, and Spell Penetration.

Spells: Beginning at 4th level, following the same rules as normal Hexblade spells.

Aura of Unluck (Sp): At 4th level, the Hexblade gains a continuous ability to misdirect enemies attacks. This ability functions exactly like like a Cloak of Minor Displacement, except that the displacement chance is equal to 5%. This increases to 15% at 8th level, 25% at 12th level, 35% at 16th level, and 50% at 20th level. Displacement never stacks with other displacement or concealment effects, such as those gained from cover, Blink, Displacement, magic items, or other spells.

Dark Curse: At 20th level, you may make a single attack as a full round action. If this attack hits, it is automatically counts as a confirmed critical hit (which also invokes your Cursed Strike ability). You may use a Dark Curse once per encounter.

ability once per encounter

1st: Cursed Strike (-1)
2nd: Arcane Resistance
3rd: Cursed Strike (-2), Mettle
4th: Aura of Unluck (5%)
5th: Cursed Strike (-3)
6th: Bonus feat
7th: Cursed Strike (-4)
8th: Aura of Unluck (15%)
9th: Cursed Strike (-5)
10th: Bonus Feat
11th: Cursed Strike (-6),
12th: Aura of Unluck (25%)
13th: Cursed Strike (-7)
14th: Bonus Feat
15th: Cursed Strike (-8),
16th: Aura of Unluck (35%)
17th: Cursed Strike (-9)
18th: Bonus Feat
19th: Cursed Strike (-10)
20th: Aura of Unluck (50%), Dark Curse


The design concept follows is pretty simple. A good class should:

Be able to survive at 1st level: 3 good Saves, d12 hit points, full BAB.

Have a reason to go 20 levels: Cursed Strike and Aura of Unluck increase with levels. Spell Progression.

Not be nerfed if you multi-class or go into a PrC: Arcane Resistance, Mettle, Cursed Strike, and Displacement effects are always helpful.

Have flexibility within gameplay and within build: Plenty of choices to be made in terms of Skills, feats, and spells, and options of what to do within class.

Swooper
2007-09-17, 05:15 PM
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11088256&postcount=16

This is a link to the WotC boards, where the developer who wrote the class to begin with comments on it's weakness. He suggests all or some of these changes:

*Medium armour proficiency.
*Good Fort save.
*Cha-mod additional curses per day, cursing is a swift action and if a curse is saved against it is not considered spent.
*At 6th level, the Hexblade can cast a single spell as a swift action once per day. He gains an additional use of this power at 8th, 11th, 14th and 18th levels.

This is pretty much the fix I will be using in my next game/s, personally.

arkol
2007-09-17, 05:27 PM
He says that the curse is useable 1+cha times per day... but does it increase with levels? Because if it doesn't... it only helps at lower levels as they won't be boosting cha all that high...

Stam
2007-09-17, 11:38 PM
Um...they won't? If you want that curse to actually be effective (and boost your arcane spell resistance +) you're going to have a rocket-high Cha. Starting Cha probably 15-16, and at mid-levels that'll be more like 20. That makes 6 curses a day at 10th-ish level, assuming level-appropriate equipment.

Plus, if you tack on the 'not expended if saved against' you've now got more than enough curses to last out the day.

Seems like a reasonable fix. But I would give them more spells per day in addition to the swift casting. Perhaps +1 bonus spell per level, or something...weighed in early in the progression, not late.

arkol
2007-09-17, 11:46 PM
I supose you're right about the charisma thing. With the "if saved not expended" part it's indeed more then enough....

Ok the curse seems to be done with.

Now the spells... only adding an extra spell? What about CL? Class level -3? Full?

What about spells knowed? One every level like the dusk? Less but more then now? Keep?

Swooper
2007-09-18, 04:26 AM
He says that the curse is useable 1+cha times per day... but does it increase with levels? Because if it doesn't... it only helps at lower levels as they won't be boosting cha all that high...
Not 1+Cha times per day, x+Cha times per day. X is the number of times they can do it according to CW. That means 1+Cha at 1st level, 2+Cha at 5th level etc. And as someone said, yes, Hexblades should be pumping their charisma.

I'm not sure something needs to be done about their spellcasting; they always struck me as the more warrior-y of the two gish classes and should have more stuff to reflect that - the spellcasting is secondary to them.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-18, 06:58 AM
Expand their list to include any spells that include "Curse" or "Hex" in the name, along with Baleful Polymorph, and whatever other "jinxy" sorts of spells you can find. Look into the Cursespewing Weapon ability from Book of Vile Darkness(reprinted in Magic Item Compendium). Maybe give them the ability to imbue their weapons with the ability(1 round per class level?) in exchange for 1 or 2 uses of the Hexblades' Curse ability. Make it Stackable with the Hexblade's Curse and Bestow Curse, but not itself(so that you can't keep smacking someone, but you can spread the "love" around a little). Probably grant it around level 13 or so, which would make it comparable to the Duskblade's Arcane Channeling.

kme
2007-09-18, 07:25 AM
You may wish to add them unlimited uses of curse per day, but if someone makes his save he cannot be affected by it in next 24 hours.

Person_Man
2007-09-18, 08:39 AM
You may wish to add them unlimited uses of curse per day, but if someone makes his save he cannot be affected by it in next 24 hours.

That's the mechanic I favor. It works very well with fear builds.

Stam
2007-09-18, 10:47 AM
Re: Spells...

Yeah, give them full caster level, or at worst (class level-3). I think one bonus spell per level, granted initially, would probably do a lot in that area. (Either that, or double their effective bonus spells from a high Cha rather than giving them singles.)

Also allow them to learn any spell that you (as DM) believe fits the theme of the class (Cursing, impedance, limited buffing).

Although they're supposed to be warrior first and spellcaster second...if you're going to give them access to spells, don't have those spells be limited from two directions (spells known and abysmal uses per day) *and* penalize their CL to boot. Rangers and Pallys can prepare whatever they want for a day, and they're also supposed to be useless spellcasters...but they can pick whatever's useful to them on that particular day.
The Hexblade, like the Sorcerer, should at least be given a few more spells per day to make up for the limitation. Sorta like they did with the Favored Soul - mucho more spells per day as payment for limit to spells known.