Who was the Rat angry with?

[AngelusAlvus]

I thought this was a bit confusing for me. Wasn't the Rat one of the evil ones of the twelve gods? Was he angry because they lost the Dark one as an ally or was he angry because of the deaths of the people form Azure City?

[Peelee]

I thought this was a bit confusing for me. Wasn't the Rat one of the evil ones of the twelve gods? Was he angry because they lost the Dark one as an ally or was he angry because of the deaths of the people form Azure City?

I imagine Rat loved the cloak and dagger politics and the assassiny and backstabby mechanics of Azure City's lords.

[Resileaf]

Whether Rat was evil or not, the Azurites all worshipped him along with the rest of the 12 gods, no matter what their alignment (even the paladins worship all of them without exception). With the destruction of Azure city, he pretty much lost something like half of his worshippers.
No matter how evil the god, I doubt they'd want to lose so many of their followers, especially to a deity they wanted to be allied with.

[Fyraltari]

Whether Rat was evil or not, the Azurites all worshipped him along with the rest of the 12 gods, no matter what their alignment (even the paladins worship all of them without exception). With the destruction of Azure city, he pretty much lost something like half of his worshippers.
No matter how evil the god, I doubt they'd want to lose so many of their followers, especially to a deity they wanted to be allied with.

I doubt Azure City had half of the South's population, especially when it had four allies in the continent.

The point still stands though, that it is a loss for Rat.

[Resileaf]

I doubt Azure City had half of the South's population, especially when it had four allies in the continent.

The point still stands though, that it is a loss for Rat.

Well this is assuming the Azurites are unique in their unconditional worship of every single god of the southern pantheon. I don't think we know if the other nations have the same system of worship.

[Peelee]

Well this is assuming the Azurites are unique in their unconditional worship of every single god of the southern pantheon. I don't think we know if the other nations have the same system of worship.

The Realm of the Dragon, I assume, would be the most likely to hold one god in higher esteem than the others.

[Fyraltari]

Well this is assuming the Azurites are unique in their unconditional worship of every single god of the southern pantheon. I don't think we know if the other nations have the same system of worship.

Good point.

[Rrmcklin]

There was already a thread about this.

In any case, context makes it obvious that Thor meant Rat was furious with the Dark One. I honestly don't understand how it's confusing.


Well this is assuming the Azurites are unique in their unconditional worship of every single god of the southern pantheon. I don't think we know if the other nations have the same system of worship.

We do; Rich has said the Twelves Gods are worshipped as a pantheon, by everyone, in the South. Azure city was not unique in that regard.

Even if they were unique it wouldn't change anything; Rat would still have lost a ton of followers.

[Resileaf]

We do; Rich has said the Twelves Gods are worshipped as a pantheon, by everyone, in the South. Azure city was not unique in that regard.

Even if they were unique it wouldn't change anything; Rat would still have lost a ton of followers.

Just a ton? Man, Azurites are skinny!

(Thanks for the info)

[mucat]

Just a ton? Man, Azurites are skinny!
Well, yeah; they're stick-figure comic characters. They are literally one paint-layer thick!

[deworde]

Another possible reason is that, given Rat's nature, he is likely to be a god of urbanity. As such, the loss of Azure City may have hit him particularly hard.

[MartianInvader]

The Realm of the Dragon, I assume, would be the most likely to hold one god in higher esteem than the others.
Ah yes, Rooster. How lucky for him.

[zimmerwald1915]

Another possible reason is that, given Rat's nature, he is likely to be a god of urbanity. As such, the loss of Azure City may have hit him particularly hard.
Rats thrive as much or more in corn cribs and silos as in cities.

[Lacuna Caster]

We do; Rich has said the Twelves Gods are worshipped as a pantheon, by everyone, in the South. Azure city was not unique in that regard.
I don't think Rich said 'everyone in the south', just all azurites.

But yes, touching on the previous thread, one theory is that Rat was annoyed with the Dark One for allowing his high priest to brutally murder Tsukiko, who was... somehow... working to Rat's advantage.

[The Pilgrim]

The Realm of the Dragon, I assume, would be the most likely to hold one god in higher esteem than the others.

Wasn't the Realm of the Dragon led by an Evil Red Dragon? If so, I bet the deity most likely to be hold in higher esteem would be Tiamat, Godess of Evil Dragons. Southern Lands or not, the Glorified Zoo Pantheon can kiss her ass.

[zimmerwald1915]

Wasn't the Realm of the Dragon led by an Evil Red Dragon?
What source does that notion come from? Certainly the Empire of Blood was led by an Evil Red Dragon. But I can't find any sure depiction of the Realm of the Dragon in the online comic.

[Kish]

1) Neither Tarquin nor Malack is red or a dragon.
2) Good Deeds Gone Unpunished: How the Paladin Got His Scar.

[zimmerwald1915]

1) Neither Tarquin nor Malack is red or a dragon.
De jure, not de facto.


2) Good Deeds Gone Unpunished: How the Paladin Got His Scar.
I'm told it's in the mail :smallsigh:

[Goblin_Priest]

I doubt Azure City had half of the South's population, especially when it had four allies in the continent.

The point still stands though, that it is a loss for Rat.

Is it a loss, though?

Hel's whole power play involves getting a lot of souls at once. She wants that.

So... when familicide gives Tiamat the souls of a whole bunch of black dragons... shouldn't that just make her suddenly much more powerful? When a ton of people die in Azure City, doesn't that just make Rat more powerful?

[Peelee]

Is it a loss, though?

Hel's whole power play involves getting a lot of souls at once. She wants that.

So... when familicide gives Tiamat the souls of a whole bunch of black dragons... shouldn't that just make her suddenly much more powerful? When a ton of people die in Azure City, doesn't that just make Rat more powerful?

Hel's whole power play involves getting a lot of souls at once right before remaking the world. That last part is pretty integral to her plan.

[Fyraltari]

Also she gets all the Dwarves. Rat got at most 1/12th Azurite and may have lost a big part of his worshippers, which should the world keep on existing, would be problematic in the long run, since worshippers don't just spring up in existence.

[Rynael]

The fact that, in this particular case, the gods might see those people as all likely to die anyway a few weeks later, doesn't change the fact that gods probably tend to take killing a ton of their worshipers as an insult, if only because of Fyraltari's point about worshipers not springing up into existence. And Hel is unique in that her souls aren't her worshipers, so she has an equally unique hatred for them.

We're well into the zone of "making assumptions that fit with the text" here, and most of the Soul Power™ explanation was in an off-the-cuff quote to fit the needs of the plot, but if I had to make up an explanation, I'd go with: Living (or undead, etc.) worshipers are valuable in a different way, and Hel's relative dearth in that area is what makes her case different from Tiamat's confirmed anger at Vaarsuvius and our speculations about Rat.

[Goblin_Priest]

Hel's whole power play involves getting a lot of souls at once right before remaking the world. That last part is pretty integral to her plan.

Yes, true. But...

What does that even change?

I mean, it's supposed to matter. It's also part of the Plan's reasoning.

But if avoiding a snarl means that every god has no choice but to take turns in making choices, and are sovereign in their choices, as we've seen in the accounts about how these worlds are made...

Does that not make all gods essentially equal? Any god that would try to use their "power" to force things their way could just create another snarl...

[Peelee]

Yes, true. But...

What does that even change?

I mean, it's supposed to matter. It's also part of the Plan's reasoning.

But if avoiding a snarl means that every god has no choice but to take turns in making choices, and are sovereign in their choices, as we've seen in the accounts about how these worlds are made...

Does that not make all gods essentially equal? Any god that would try to use their "power" to force things their way could just create another snarl...

Choose whatever reason you want that makes sense. Maybe the most powerful gods get to go first when making the new world, and Hel's first decision will be "I'm queen of the Northern Pantheon" or something*. Doesn't matter. What matters is her getting all dwarf souls at worlds end who don't worship her is different from rat getting 1/12 of the souls from a major city that was a constant producer of worshippers.

*ETA: Or choose a way better reason like what Kish said below.

[Kish]

I don't remember any indication that conflicts within a single pantheon/quiddity can create a Snarl.

Hel's entire scheme is about jockeying for position within the Northern Pantheon. Indeed, it relies on the Western and Southern Pantheons not having anything to say about the head of the Northern Pantheon changing.

[Fyraltari]

I don't remember any indication that conflicts within a single pantheon/quiddity can create a Snarl.

Hel's entire scheme is about jockeying for position within the Northern Pantheon. Indeed, it relies on the Western and Southern Pantheons not having anything to say about the head of the Northern Pantheon changing.

While I agree witht this, there is something that bugs me.

If intra-pantheon conflict cannot create a Snarl (or even if it does, since according to Thor, any god would just "wave it away in an instant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html)" as it would be monochrome) then why* is the Godsmoot set up the way it is?
I understand that the Three Pantheons need intermediaries to interact with each other, but why within each pantheon? Can't the Northern Gods just meet up in Valhalla?

*besides, "because there wouldn't be a plot if it wasn't" of course.

[Jasdoif]

If intra-pantheon conflict cannot create a Snarl (or even if it does, since according to Thor, any god would just "wave it away in an instant (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html)" as it would be monochrome) then why* is the Godsmoot set up the way it is?
I understand that the Three Pantheons need intermediaries to interact with each other, but why within each pantheon? Can't the Northern Gods just meet up in Valhalla?The Godsmoot we saw had representatives from the other pantheons to relay votes; and thus needed intermediaries.

[Fyraltari]

The Godsmoot we saw had representatives from the other pantheons to relay votes; and thus needed intermediaries.

Yes, but what I am saying is that they could do the intra-pantheon votes in person and then send Marduk's, Odin's and Dragon's high Priests to relay the Pantheons' votes.

[Jasdoif]

Yes, but what I am saying is that they could do the intra-pantheon votes in person and then send Marduk's, Odin's and Dragon's high Priests to relay the Pantheons' votes.They certainly could, if all they cared about was how (the one god's high priest claimed) the pantheon voted.

Or, if they also wanted everyone to have the ability to independently verify the results in the interests of transparency (or, well, not fighting over accusations of vote rigging), having the votes cast in the presence of representatives from the other pantheons could accomplish that as well.

[Fyraltari]

Wait, do they need a Cleric present to see what's happening on the Material Plane?

[Kish]

Wait, do they need a Cleric present to see what's happening on the Material Plane?
I'm not sure how that's relevant to the situation under debate. You're proposing that it would work for 1) each pantheon to debate and come to a conclusion on an outer plane, followed by 2) the high priests of Marduk, Dragon, and Odin relaying the results of that debate.

In this proposal, all the Twelve Gods learn is that the high priests of Marduk and Odin say "The Gods of the West vote Yes" and "The Gods of the North vote No."

[Jasdoif]

Wait, do they need a Cleric present to see what's happening on the Material Plane?Probably not, since Veldrina isn't a cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html) :smalltongue:

More seriously...if they need someone present to vote, I'd guess it's at least easier to observe through a representative.

[Resileaf]

Well even if intra-pantheon conflict couldn't create a snarl, the gods don't particularly all like each other either. They could come to blows if they were in each others' presence, or maybe they wouldn't be able to find a completely neutral plane where they can interact with each other (I doubt Thor would want Loki to hang out in Valhalla, for example).

[hamishspence]

More seriously...if they need someone present to vote, I'd guess it's at least easier to observe through a representative.

"A worshipper" is a valid target for Remote Sensing, at least:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#remoteSensing

[Fyraltari]

I'm not sure how that's relevant to the situation under debate. You're proposing that it would work for 1) each pantheon to debate and come to a conclusion on an outer plane, followed by 2) the high priests of Marduk, Dragon, and Odin relaying the results of that debate.

In this proposal, all the Twelve Gods learn is that the high priests of Marduk and Odin say "The Gods of the West vote Yes" and "The Gods of the North vote No."
Jasdoif objected that the gods would want transparency, which, in my opinion, is much more likely to mean "Don't you think Loki would want to be sure Odin is indeed conveying what the Northern Gods voted instead of just his?" rather than "Don't you think Nergal would want to know wether Njord said "Yes" or "No" this time?". Because why would the gods care about the going ons of a different pantheon, when their foreign policies amount to "each at home and the sheep will be well kept"?

Well even if intra-pantheon conflict couldn't create a snarl, the gods don't particularly all like each other either. They could come to blows if they were in each others' presence, or maybe they wouldn't be able to find a completely neutral plane where they can interact with each other (I doubt Thor would want Loki to hang out in Valhalla, for example).
Durkon describes his Pantheon as "pretty much one big family (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeVFYN1bOXg)" and Hilgya expects (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1113.html) to go to Valhalla should she secape Hel. The Twelve looks to be able to work together more or less seamlessly going by Azure City in general and the Sapphire Guard in particular. According to Malack though, the Western Gods probably would need to stay away from each other.

Edit:

Probably not, since Veldrina isn't a cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html) :smalltongue:

More seriously...if they need someone present to vote, I'd guess it's at least easier to observe through a representative.

"A worshipper" is a valid target for Remote Sensing, at least:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#remoteSensing
Good enough for me!

[Resileaf]

Durkon describes his Pantheon as "pretty much one big family (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeVFYN1bOXg)" and Hilgya expects (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1113.html) to go to Valhalla should she secape Hel. The Twelve looks to be able to work together more or less seamlessly going by Azure City in general and the Sapphire Guard in particular. According to Malack though, the Western Gods probably would need to stay away from each other.


One big family where two family members constantly come to blows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html), and another who is currently scheming to take over the entire family after her dad fooled her into losing all her worshippers and power. Also one of them is kind of a mad, feral wolf?

I dunno. I think Durkon may have been embellishing things a tad.

[Fyraltari]

One big family where two family members constantly come to blows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html), and another who is currently scheming to take over the entire family after her dad fooled her into losing all her worshippers and power. Also one of them is kind of a mad, feral wolf?

I dunno. I think Durkon may have been embellishing things a tad.

Sounds about right. Is your family any different? :smalltongue:

You have a point though. (Even though Loki and Thor seem to hang out peacefully most of the time.)

[Prinygod]

Sounds about right. Is your family any different? :smalltongue:

You have a point though. (Even though Loki and Thor seem to hang out peacefully most of the time.)

Norse mythology is a weird. The gods know that ragnorok is coming, they know how it starts and why, they even know whom kills whom. But they are powerless to stop it and act as they would if they didn't know. I am guessing that attitude carries over to oots. They know Loki will trick and betray them if he gets the chance, but he hasn't done it yet so let's have a picnic.

[Fyraltari]

Norse mythology is a weird. The gods know that ragnorok is coming, they know how it starts and why, they even know whom kills whom. But they are powerless to stop it and act as they would if they didn't know. I am guessing that attitude carries over to oots. They know Loki will trick and betray them if he gets the chance, but he hasn't done it yet so let's have a picnic.

I think it's more that they eventually discover that something they have already done will eventually bite them in the ass in the long run.

Odin & Co did not necessarily know yet that imprisonning Loki would lead to his taking part in Ragnarök, but learned about it when he was already imprisonned, for example.

[Prinygod]

I think it's more that they eventually discover that something they have already done will eventually bite them in the ass in the long run.

Odin & Co did not necessarily know yet that imprisonning Loki would lead to his taking part in Ragnarök, but learned about it when he was already imprisonned, for example.
Its been a long time since I read Norse mythology, but even in your example, why not finish Loki off? There may be a specific reason why they don't, but I seem to have the impression that not even God's can change fate, and know better than to try.

[Fyraltari]

Its been a long time since I read Norse mythology, but even in your example, why not finish Loki off? There may be a specific reason why they don't, but I seem to have the impression that not even God's can change fate, and know better than to try.
hmm, you are right.

Then again, wouldn't killing Loki before Ragnarök, just send him to Hel and so amount to freeing him?

[Kornaki]

I think everyone has kind of missed that Rat was eventually going to get those souls anyway. If Azure City wasn't sacked and they unmade the world to re-imprison the snarl, he would get those souls (in fact, that's exactly how Hel is planning on getting hers). If they don't unmake the world, they will die eventually and he will get them. Long term, his power is the same no matter when they die (or worse if they die now, since they can't make more Rat worshipping babies). Hel's special case isn't that she was getting a sudden infusion of souls right now, it's that she was getting a sudden infusion of souls she otherwise would have never had access to.

[Fyraltari]

Long term, his power is the same no matter when they die (or worse if they die now, since they can't make more Rat worshipping babies).
But that's just the thing. until the Fall of azure City, Rat was (one supposes) still hoping to get the Dark One to calm down and so save this world from inevitable destruction. So now either they are still stuck in the Circle (and Rat doesn't like that) or he will get significntly less worshipper (and thus souls) than before because there arre fewer worshippers of his to teach the future generations and fewer places for them to freely worship him in left.

There's also the degree of personnal insult ("HE'S BREAKING MY STUFF!"), that would be hypocritical coming from one of the Sapphire Guard's patrons but that wouldn't be surprising either.

[Kornaki]

But that's just the thing. until the Fall of azure City, Rat was (one supposes) still hoping to get the Dark One to calm down and so save this world from inevitable destruction. So now either they are still stuck in the Circle (and Rat doesn't like that) or he will get significntly less worshipper (and thus souls) than before because there arre fewer worshippers of his to teach the future generations and fewer places for them to freely worship him in left.

There's also the degree of personnal insult ("HE'S BREAKING MY STUFF!"), that would be hypocritical coming from one of the Sapphire Guard's patrons but that wouldn't be surprising either.

I think you misunderstood me. A claim was made that Rat should be happy that he got this big power boost, just like Hel was trying to get. The people trying to explain away that his power boost wasn't as big as Hel's, or wasn't as well timed as Hel's, are missing the fact that he didn't get any power boost at all. There was no upside to his worshippers getting slaughtered, and there are obvious downsides, so I agree that he should be mad.

[Fyraltari]

I think you misunderstood me. A claim was made that Rat should be happy that he got this big power boost, just like Hel was trying to get. The people trying to explain away that his power boost wasn't as big as Hel's, or wasn't as well timed as Hel's, are missing the fact that he didn't get any power boost at all. There was no upside to his worshippers getting slaughtered, and there are obvious downsides, so I agree that he should be mad.
My apologies.

[KorvinStarmast]

but I seem to have the impression that not even God's can change fate, and know better than to try. The Norns/Fate keep on weaving the fabric of the future. There was a mild allusion to this by Odin at the Godsmoot.

I see worlds within worlds, and yarn winding yarn (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html)

The yarn would be linked to the Norns/Fate/Destiny (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norns).

The origin of the name norn is uncertain, it may derive from a word meaning "to twine" and which would refer to their twining the thread of fate

[Fyraltari]

I assumed the "yarn windind yarn" was the Snarl.

[Peelee]

I assumed the "yarn windind yarn" was the Snarl.

Clearly it's the Snarl making a Snarl, Jr. Which, in turn, will turn out to be the MitD.

[Fyraltari]

Clearly it's the Snarl making a Snarl, Jr. Which, in turn, will turn out to be the MitD.

I was thinking of building the World Within the Rift, but your thing works too.

*Watches out for angry grey wolves*

[Peelee]

I was thinking of building the World Within the Rift, but your thing works too.

*Watches out for angry grey wolves*

Those are also the MitD.

[Chronos]

The Gods of the North do just all get together in Valhalla to decide how they're voting. That's precisely why they need the Godsmoot.

Remember, the gods in OotS exist, but they don't exist in the same way that mortals do. They're dependent on the belief and faith of their worshipers. So when gods interact is when their worshipers interact: For instance, Thor fighting Sutur is a manifestation of Thor's followers fighting Sutur's followers. And so for an entire pantheon to have a group discussion, it's necessary for their significant worshipers to also get together for a group discussion.

[Fyraltari]

The Gods of the North do just all get together in Valhalla to decide how they're voting. That's precisely why they need the Godsmoot.

Remember, the gods in OotS exist, but they don't exist in the same way that mortals do. They're dependent on the belief and faith of their worshipers. So when gods interact is when their worshipers interact: For instance, Thor fighting Sutur is a manifestation of Thor's followers fighting Sutur's followers. And so for an entire pantheon to have a group discussion, it's necessary for their significant worshipers to also get together for a group discussion.
Err, no. Hel was contacting the demi-gods to negotiate while her only worshipper was waiting inside the Mechane's hull, not meeting with Hermod's Priestess.

The Gods are dependent on what mortals think they are like, but the idea that they cannot act unless they have one follower mirroring their movements on the Material is ridiculous. How would they even build more worlds?

[Vendanna]

Rat was angry with Loki, because he got "Ratted" out. :v

[Prinygod]

Rat was angry with Loki, because he got "Ratted" out. :v
Wouldn't Loki be angry since it was the rat "Rat" whom ratted him out to that cat TDO?