Large but not in charge

[Malapterus]

Despite a general consensus that Small is better than Large, I have never been able to find a legitimate Large or pseudo-Large race without a level adjustment.

Despite the extra carrying capacity and presumed extra strength and toughness, there are a ton of drawbacks to the size increase. Penalties to attack and AC, more expensive gear, take up more space on the map, hard to find a good mount, dungeon claustrophobia, etc. They also have a 10 foot face, meaning they can be beaten on by 12 people at once instead of 9.

Now, one cannot forget the 10 foot reach. Also, larger humanoids generically move a little faster.

What sort of modifiers would go with Large to make it a fair playable race? Would you just do the normal adjustments for going up a size & completely forgo any racial qualities? Would they need additional penalties? Is this even possible?

Let me know, I am working in a project

[OgresAreCute]

You only add the stat adjustments from increasing size to a creature that increases in size from advancing (usually by adding RHD to a mob). A natively large race does not and should not have those stats baked in. Having a larger space isn't really that much of an inconvenience from a purely battle-map perspective. The chance of you having 9+ guys within 5 feet of you at the same time and not immediately dying are pretty slim. It is inconvenient with regards to tight hallways, doors, not having to sleep in the stable, etc though. Remember you can squeeze through medium passages (I think?).

As far as the pure number adjustments, I'd say 10 ft reach is a lot more valuable than the tiny penalty to AC and to-hit for just about any melee character, and especially for those who take advantage of opportunity attacks/reach weapons. It also adds a +4 to your combat maneuvers (don't believe you mentioned this), which is good since maneuvers that don't scale with BAB like trip often have a somewhat static bonus. Starting at a higher size with no penalty also makes it easier to reach huge/gargantuan/colossal sizes with for example the expansion power, making maneuvers even more reliable and reach even bigger (not necessarily a bad thing, not like a Huge martial can really compete with a wizard in the BFC department anyway).

All-in-all, I'd say large size is a net positive for most melee martials. Of course, races are supposed to have net positives, so it might not be a huge deal. Net +0 ability scores (+2 strength and con, -2 dex and cha?) and maybe one or two minor features in addition to large size probably wouldn't be too overpowered. Do note that it might end up being better than many other strength-based martial options since martial race options aren't that great.

PS: if you add some better martial options like this, you might want to buff some of the ones that are already available but are kinda poopy like (half-)orcs to make them a bit more competitive.

[Goaty14]

What sort of modifiers would go with Large to make it a fair playable race?

Powerful Build. All of the aforementioned "drawbacks" no longer exist, with all of the benefits.

Checkmate.

[RaiKirah]

Powerful Build. All of the aforementioned "drawbacks" no longer exist, with all of the benefits.

Checkmate.

Powerful Build doesn't stack with other size increases. If you have no other way to get bigger (unlikely, unless there's no magic or psionics) then it's good, otherwise it's ok sometimes and irrelevant most of the time. Really the best benefit of Powerful Build is qualifying for Knockback.

[OgresAreCute]

Powerful Build. All of the aforementioned "drawbacks" no longer exist, with all of the benefits.

Checkmate.

Powerful build gives you like, +3.5 average damage per hit and better maneuvers. 10 foot reach is a pretty significant benefit you're missing out on.

[Fizban]

Despite a general consensus that Small is better than Large,
Who? When? Where? What?

A caster is better off shrinking than growing, a stealth character gets benefit from being Small but wants to stop there if they ever use melee, but I have never heard anyone suggest Large was a bad idea for anyone else ever.

There is no fair way to set up an LA 0 Large race. It is better in every way in almost every situation for an entire segment of characters.

[Selion]

I don't see being large as this huge drawback. Thanks God Ogres usually don't use polearms

[ShurikVch]

Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale and Anthropomorphic Huge Viper are both LA +0 (and 3 racial HD)


a stealth character gets benefit from being Small but wants to stop there if they ever use meleeAFAIK, by the RAW, Whip is always 15' reach - even if it's Fine-sized Whip
Also, some of grafts are give sizable increase to reach, which will negate "0' reach" of smaller form:
Long Arm - +5'
Whip Tail - +10'
Raking Tentacle - +5'

[Malapterus]

It also adds a +4 to your combat maneuvers

I forgot to mention that. However, all those +4s are counters by -4s elsewhere, and the opposite is true for Small creatures.

'Powerful Build', while a ton of fun, is not Large. Also, everyone who has it has a level adjustment.

I guess the problem with Large is that it seems to shoehorn the character in to a certain selection of classes because the inherent bonuses are so physical. An Orc or Half Giant could be a rogue and a Gnome or Halfling could be a good Fighter but something Large is going to be penalized a lot on the more subtle & finessey sort of things (although anyone who has seen the BFG movie wants to make a giant Rogue).

[Elkad]

If we just take the base size increase rules out of the MM.

Medium to Large is
+8 str, -2 dex, +4 con, +2 NA (plus 10' reach and a larger dmg die).

If we put that on a generic 1HD humanoid (a human without the bonus feat or skillpoint), is it still worth +1 LA?
Probably. But it's nowhere near +2.


Lets try another example. You are playing - oh say a half-elf to pick something terrible. But as part of your backstory, you were briefly the victim of a Magic Jar, and the CL33 possessor also needed you to carry some heavy stuff, so he cast a Permanent Enlarge Person on your form (don't look behind the curtain). So you are a size Large half-elf, with +2 str and -2 dex, and the usual half-elf bonuses. And someday (but not anytime soon) it could be dispelled. That isn't anywhere near +1 LA.

Here, have a custom race I just made up. Who would play this at LA:0? I think a fair amount.

Flimsybigs.

These tall slender humanoids resemble a 13' elf, and in fact have the nickname "longelf" in some regions. They are frailer than their size would suggest, surprisingly quick and rarely weigh more than 900lbs.

Stats.
Dex +2
Size Large (-1 to hit, -1 AC, +4 grapple, etc)
Speed: 40'


Notes: +2 dex is to put them even on AC and ranged tohit. So we have a fair comparison to a Medium creature. I threw in 40' speed as their only real racial feature.

[unseenmage]

I don't see being large as this huge drawback. Thanks God Ogres usually don't use polearms

Neither do I. I see it as being a large drawback.

Only thing being bigger is good for is blocking corridors while useful party members run away to recruit someone smaller so as to fight again another day.


Wordplay aside, bigger creatures would seem disproportionately either A) saddled with useless monster HD or B) statted in such a way that becoming a spellcaster or stealth character isn't viable.

Usually both.