Ninja vs ninja

[EndocrineBandit]

Out of curiosity, how does the complete adventurer ninja compare to the rokugon and the oriental adventures ninja? How do they compare to each other? I have a 4 ninja 2 swordsage in the orient, we acquired more books for rokugon but I haven't had time to go through them and the dm said we could retrain to the ninja from the other books if we would like. I'm aiming to make a butei if that helps.

[ViperMagnum357]

Well, the only Ninja in OA is a PRC, so kinda hard to compare to a base class.

Comparing the CA Ninja base class to the Rokugan Ninja is a little more pertinent: the CA Ninja is an off brand skill monkey, basically a Rogue that trades Uncanny Dodge, class skills, skill points and Skill Mastery for a bunch of Ki powers, which most players consider a poor trade. Downgrading Sneak Attack to Sudden Strike is just an extra kick while your build is down. The Ki abilities can be readily replicated with common magic items once a character gets into the teens; if you want a better overview, you can look up one of the ninja handbooks.

Compared to that, the Rokugan Ninja is closer to the Thug/Sneak Attack Fighter variant than a Rogue: Still a D6 Hit Die, and swapping the good save to Will, only 4 + Int skill points but a decent list, including Disable Device, Forgery, Pickpocket, Innuendo, and Read Lips-picking up several Rogue Skills the CW Ninja loses. Poison Use but no Trapfinding or Evasion, yet the Rokugan Ninja gets the Uncanny Dodge and improved version the CW Ninja lacks: also a full 10d6 Sneak Attack progression over 20 levels instead of Critical Strike.

In return for trading off the skills and Ki abilities of the CA version, the Rokugan Ninja gets a handful of combat abilities, most of which the Ninja needs to minimize armor and encumbrance for: A Ninja needs to wear light armor with an ACP of 0, and cannot carry a heavy load in order to use all their combat abilities. Blind Fight and Deflect Arrows as bonus feats later on, and a special Dodge ability: the Ninja Dodge works just like the Dodge feat, starting at +1 at level 1, increasing to +2 at level 5 and increasing another +1 every five levels thereafter. The Ninja can allocate the dodge bonuses any way they choose among their enemies, and the ability counts as the Dodge feat for prerequisites, and you can take the actual dodge feat as well to increase the available bonus by 1. The Ninja also gets 2 unique abilities: Speed of Darkness gives the Ninja their Intelligence Bonus as an extra bonus to their Initiative, and Shadow Run increases the Ninja's base speed by 5 feet per point of Constitution bonus: notably, this is an untyped (Ex) ability that alters the Ninja's base speed, and is explicitly applied before any other enhancements or doublings of base speed, so that can drastically increase many of a Ninja's movement modes if they have bonuses or alternate movement modes derived from land speed.

Finally, the single biggest difference is that the Rokugan Ninja is full BAB, so I think it compares more directly to a Thug/Sneak Attack Fighter variant, all considered. :smallsmile:

[EndocrineBandit]

The party has a full ninja out of the CA book, and a some of the abilities from that ninja overlap with the swordsages boost and maneuvers I plan to take, so I think the rokugon ninja would be the better route.

[Crake]

The party has a full ninja out of the CA book, and a some of the abilities from that ninja overlap with the swordsages boost and maneuvers I plan to take, so I think the rokugon ninja would be the better route.

If it's an option, I would probably say just go full swordsage. It fits the "ninja" theme quite well if you pick the right abilities, and is just generally all around more effective.

[EndocrineBandit]

It would be an option except I plan on making them a butei, which ninja makes much easier.. and for story reasons. The swordsage is just for a splash of variety and more options on a round by round basis

[ericgrau]

Downgrading Sneak Attack to Sudden Strike is just an extra kick while your build is down. The Ki abilities can be readily replicated with common magic items once a character gets into the teens; if you want a better overview, you can look up one of the ninja handbooks.
Except that ninja comes with a built-in sudden strike trigger that doubles as a strong defense. And allows full attacks from round 1 since it can be done at range. Full BAB + sneak attack is a nice combo but it comes with d6 HD, light armor with ACP 0, and your best bet to trigger SA is flanking in suicidal melee. Against single foes only ninja dodge might partly help. Plus invisibility gets flat-footed AC to overcome the BAB. Both get a +2.

With level 15+ magic items and high level foes that see invisibility the rokugan ninja might pull ahead. All the CA ninja gets to deal with these high level foes are a nice miss chance, some minor spell abilities and evasion. While meanwhile many of them cancel his sudden strike trigger. And magic items provide easy sneak attack triggers and defense.

But the party already has a CA ninja, so whatever. I'd consider a +X buckler or +X mithral heavy shield for defense, at least until high level.

[EndocrineBandit]

That's actually a pretty valid point, the built in trigger is pretty worth while, and really itd be the difference of one attack bonus at this juncture. Hmmm.

[Maat Mons]

*looks up butei* So... your main aspiration is to spend 10 levels to acquire an ability that changelings start with at 1st level? ... To each his own, I suppose.

Edit: Oh, right, but on topic, I'd ask if you can instead retrain to psychic rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b). I feel like psionics does a better job of representing mystical ki power than the ninja's ability called ki power.

[BWR]

*looks up butei* So... your main aspiration is to spend 10 levels to acquire an ability that changelings start with at 1st level? ... To each his own, I suppose.


What if they are actually playing in Rokugan?

[OgresAreCute]

What if they are actually playing in Rokugan?

Buy a hat of disguise :smallamused:

[ShurikVch]

Well, the only Ninja in OA is a PRC, so kinda hard to compare to a base class.OA Ninja Spy PrC should be compared to the Ninja of the Crescent Moon PrC (from the Sword and Fist)


*looks up butei* So... your main aspiration is to spend 10 levels to acquire an ability that changelings start with at 1st level? ... To each his own, I suppose.Well, firstly: even if the campaign have access to Changelings, not all Changelings are got Minor Change Shape

This aside - Faceless One (Dragon #300) got Alter Self at-will as a capstone, but is - unlike Butei - 5-levels-long PrC; also, better saves (all good), and bigger HD (d8 vs Butei's d6); but no Poison Use or SA
Or, for "more mundane" variant - Replacement Killer from the Dragon #312: instead of magical transformations, they're rely more on Disguise skill, which is unusually effective (thanks to various CFs), and wouldn't fall apart from brush of True Seeing or antimagic

[liquidformat]

Buy a hat of disguise :smallamused:
no buy a Vestment of Many Styles!



OA Ninja Spy PrC should be compared to the Ninja of the Crescent Moon PrC (from the Sword and Fist)
Also Shadow Sun Ninja (TOB)

[daremetoidareyo]

Instead of butei, won't a one level dip in psion hook you up?

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a

[BWR]

The point is that many of the things one can assume are possible and available in a 'normal' D&D game are not possible in Rokugan.
No changelings, no psionics, no purchasing of magic items, no clerics or wizards etc.
The butei however is an appropriate PrC for that setting, better than pretty much any of the others mentioned.
Since the OP specifically mentioned buying Rokugan books it is not unlikely they are playing in that setting, or something similar to it.

[ericgrau]

Well, the only Ninja in OA is a PRC, so kinda hard to compare to a base class.

OA Ninja Spy PrC should be compared to the Ninja of the Crescent Moon PrC (from the Sword and Fist)


Also Shadow Sun Ninja (TOB)
You could always be a ninja/ninja/ninja/ninja/ninja.

https://memegenerator.net/img/images/300x300/11675819.jpg

[ShurikVch]

no psionicsThis isn't necessary
Dragon #308 has article: "Psychic Boxing: Psions of the Orient"; it got five "Paths of Enlightenment" for Psions, one for each:
Infinite Harmony Mastery (Seer),
One Mind with Many Voices Mastery (Telepath),
The Return to Center Mastery (Nomad),
The Sign of One Mastery (Shaper),
The Thousand Pins and Needles Mastery (Kineticist);and six "Martial Arts Styles" for Psychic Warriors:
Commanding Voice Mastery,
Iron Robe Mastery,
No Wasted Motion Mastery,
Palm Power Mastery,
Responsive Body Mastery,
Shadow's Embrace Mastery.

[Maat Mons]

What if they are actually playing in Rokugan?

If a campaign restricts the options that would allow a particular character concept to shine, I'd strongly consider saving that character concept for a future campaign, with different restrictions.

But like I said, that's just me.