Arcane Archer as a base class

[Luccan]

So, I decided to try turning some DMG prestige classes into base classes. First up would be the Arcane Archer, but I'm a bit unsure about where to place their current abilities in a 20 level progression and when to make certain abilities (like Seeker Arrows) available more often. Right now I plan on having AAs use a 0-4th level spell progression (spontaneous, based on the Wizard list) over 20 levels and giving them Imbue Arrow at 2nd and Enhance Arrow at 4th (improving every 4 levels to a max of +5 at 20th. Yeah, it isn't crazy, but they get unlimited magic arrows so...). Also I'm just ripping Warmage's Armored Mage ability off and giving it to the AA. What about its other class abilities? Where would they fit in a 20 level progression and how might they be made more available?

[EdgeOfTheAbyss]

I think that's a good idea, maybe a way t spend spell slots to gain an attack bonus.

[Nifft]

Maybe use the Duskblade casting progression, with a (mostly) different spell list.

[CharonsHelper]

Just use Pathfinder's Eldritch Archer archetype for the Magus. It does exactly what you're going for pretty dang well.

No need to reinvent the wheel.

[Kayblis]

To be honest, I believe having an Arcane Archer base class that gets its first spell slot by level 4 is missing the point - why are you making a new base class that is exactly like a Ranger and fills basically the same niche? I believe the Duskblade spell progression, as mentioned above, is much better for the concept as he starts off with a little spellcasting and gets to 5ths by level 17, while also having a lot of low level slots to imbue into arrows like the class intended to.

As a couple extra points, consider the power level you want it to have. Sure, having "unlimited magic arrows" might sound cool, but you're basically waiting 20 levels to get a weapon that the Fighter had since level 13(not mentioning you only get the base enchants, no cool abilities). Something being "unlimited" is just a fact for most static equipment bonuses. If you want the level 15 character to have a +3 weapon, sure, it can work out, but that's not impressive. The Duskblade isn't a terribly powerful class to begin with, so you could refluff some of his stuff the same way you did with the Warmage armor. I'd also suggest giving some of the feat taxes along as well, but that's just because I hate having to take 4 bad feats with every archer.

[ericgrau]

Arcane Archer base class
Agreed on giving the pre-req feats as bonus feats. 0 to 4th/5th level casting is a good idea. I don't think they were usually meant to be major casters. I think waiting until level 20 for +5 arrows is a bit late, and makes it that much more pointless compared to casting GMW on himself. The original class has +5 by character level 16. Without 6 levels of some pre-req class and 4 levels after the PrC finishes, you'll need to add 10 levels worth of abilities to the base class to make it at least as strong. I'd add more arrow based special abilities. I'd let enhance arrow add on special weapon enchantments of the player's choice up to a total of +8ish (plus any abilities the bow has). Perhaps after hitting +5 enhancement, or not. I'd start all these abilities at about level 4 and end at 20. The early spellcasting and bonus feats can fill in levels 1-3. Ok now I'll make up some special arrows to go after arrow of death, but of course you could change these a little or a lot:

Spell Arrow (Sp): Once per day as a swift action, an arcane archer may cast a targeted spell (A spell with the "Target:" line) into one of her arrows. The arrow must be fired within the same round or the spell is wasted. The spell's target is the creature or object that the arrow hits, assuming that is a valid target for the spell. This arrow may be fired as part of a regular or full attack, or combined with other abilities such as Seeker Arrow. Except that the spell arrow may not be the same arrow as an imbued arrow or a wish arrow.

Arrow of Light (Sp): An arcane archer may form a bow and/or arrows out of light, which she may use as a normal bow. The bow functions as a composite bow with a strength rating equal to the arcane archer's strength modifier. The damage from the light bow is that of a bow 2 size categories larger (3d6 for a medium longbow). The arrows function as adamantine arrows. They overcome the appropriate DR and are effective at destroying objects. She may use the light bow with physical arrows, a physical bow with light arrows, or a light bow with light arrows. A bow or arrow of light disappears 1 round after leaving the arcane archer's hand. Both emit light as a torch. This ability may be combined with other arcane archer abilities and with magic weapon properties (assuming that either the bow or arrow is physical).

Wish Arrow (Sp): An arcane archer gains the ability to place any wizard spell up to 7th level upon an arrow, or any cleric or druid spell up to 6th level. Or another effect of similar power at the DM's discretion, including imitating any other arcane archer ability to use it a 2nd time in the same day. She need not know the spell, and it does not consume one of her spells per day. However she must supply any expensive material components or xp components. When the arrow is fired, the spell targets where the arrow lands (if appropriate) and is treated as if it were cast out of the arrow (if appropriate). The arcane archer may make other spell choices at her discretion. A spell with an attack roll such as a ray spell hits where the arrow hits. No additional roll is required. A line or cone spell must be directed in the same direction as the arrow, but other shapes may be directed at the discretion of the arcane archer. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.

Other Classes
And likewise for other prestige classes. Give some pre-reqs as class features. Expand the abilities to start a little bit earlier than the entry level and add more to reach level 20.

Multiclassed Caster Prestige Classes
For replacing multiclassed caster prestige classes, I'd do this: Increase your effective level for casting from an arcane class by 1/2 your levels in non-arcane classes, and 3/4 your levels in arcane classes. Increase your effective level for casting from a divine class by 1/4 your levels in non-divine classes (since divine classes are semi-gishes already), and 3/4 your levels in divine classes. Total up the bonus and then round down. In any case your bonus levels may not exceed your real levels. So a cleric 5 / druid 5 / wizard 5 casts as a cleric 10 / druid 10 / wizard 10.

This rule is more effective at low levels where MT is borderline unplayable, but less effective at high levels where mixes really shine. Plus it allows more class features which makes up for some of the high level drawbacks. I'd strongly consider also increasing the effective level for certain other class features such as wildshape, turning, and familiar progression. But don't grant new special abilities, bonus feats, BAB, saves, nor skill points. Even in the case of wild shape for example you'd need 5 true druid levels to get it, but your effective druid level for form HD would be higher.

[Luccan]

To be honest, I believe having an Arcane Archer base class that gets its first spell slot by level 4 is missing the point - why are you making a new base class that is exactly like a Ranger and fills basically the same niche? I believe the Duskblade spell progression, as mentioned above, is much better for the concept as he starts off with a little spellcasting and gets to 5ths by level 17, while also having a lot of low level slots to imbue into arrows like the class intended to.

As a couple extra points, consider the power level you want it to have. Sure, having "unlimited magic arrows" might sound cool, but you're basically waiting 20 levels to get a weapon that the Fighter had since level 13(not mentioning you only get the base enchants, no cool abilities). Something being "unlimited" is just a fact for most static equipment bonuses. If you want the level 15 character to have a +3 weapon, sure, it can work out, but that's not impressive. The Duskblade isn't a terribly powerful class to begin with, so you could refluff some of his stuff the same way you did with the Warmage armor. I'd also suggest giving some of the feat taxes along as well, but that's just because I hate having to take 4 bad feats with every archer.

Perhaps I failed to explain myself. I didn't intend to do it like the Ranger, but the Duskblade route might be better anyway (and doesn't require me inventing my own spell progression). I assume most DMs (myself included) make magic items available at high levels: We're talking about unlimited magic ammunition that while not necessarily overwhelming do cut down cost quite a bit, plus I'm worried about being able to create any magic ammo they want (Slaying Arrows for instance). But maybe I'm worrying too much. Giving the feats is a solid suggestion, I'll do that.


Arcane Archer base class
Agreed on giving the pre-req feats as bonus feats. 0 to 4th/5th level casting is a good idea. I don't think they were usually meant to be major casters. I think waiting until level 20 for +5 arrows is a bit late, and makes it that much more pointless compared to casting GMW on himself. The original class has +5 by character level 16. Without 6 levels of some pre-req class and 4 levels after the PrC finishes, you'll need to add 10 levels worth of abilities to the base class to make it at least as strong. I'd add more arrow based special abilities. I'd let enhance arrow add on special weapon enchantments of the player's choice up to a total of +8ish (plus any abilities the bow has). Perhaps after hitting +5 enhancement, or not. I'd start all these abilities at about level 4 and end at 20. The early spellcasting and bonus feats can fill in levels 1-3. Ok now I'll make up some special arrows to go after arrow of death (gained at level 14?), but of course you could change these a little or a lot:

Spell Arrow (Sp): Once per day as a swift action, an arcane archer may cast a targeted spell (A spell with the "Target:" line) into one of her arrows. The arrow must be fired within the same round or the spell is wasted. The spell's target is the creature or object that the arrow hits, assuming that is a valid target for the spell. This arrow may be fired as part of a regular or full attack, or combined with other abilities such as Seeker Arrow. Except that the spell arrow may not be the same arrow as an imbued arrow or a wish arrow.

Arrow of Light (Sp): An arcane archer may form a bow and/or arrows out of light, which she may use as a normal bow. The bow functions as a masterwork composite bow with a strength rating equal to the arcane archer's strength modifier. The damage from the light bow is that of a bow 2 size categories larger (3d6 for a medium longbow). The arrows function as adamantine arrows. They overcome the appropriate DR and are effective at destroying objects. She may use the light bow with physical arrows, a physical bow with light arrows, or a light bow with light arrows. A bow or arrow of light disappears 1 round after leaving the arcane archer's hand. Both emit light as a torch. This ability may be combined with other arcane archer abilities and with magic weapon properties (assuming that either the bow or arrow is physical).

Wish Arrow (Sp): An arcane archer gains the ability to place any wizard spell up to 7th level upon an arrow, or any cleric or druid spell up to 6th level. Or another effect of similar power at the DM's discretion, including imitating any other arcane archer ability to use it a 2nd time in the same day. She need not know the spell, and it does not consume one of her spells per day. However she must supply any expensive material components or xp components. When the arrow is fired, the spell targets where the arrow lands (if appropriate) and is treated as if it were cast out of the arrow (if appropriate). The arcane archer may make other spell choices at her discretion. A spell with an attack roll such as a ray spell hits where the arrow hits. No additional roll is required. A line or cone spell must be directed in the same direction as the arrow, but other shapes may be directed at the discretion of the arcane archer. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.

Other Classes
And likewise for other prestige classes. Give some pre-reqs as class features. Expand the abilities to start a little bit earlier than the entry level and add more to reach level 20.

Multiclassed Caster Prestige Classes
For replacing multiclassed caster prestige classes, I'd do this: Increase your effective level for casting from an arcane class by 1/2 your levels in non-arcane classes, and 3/4 your levels in arcane classes. Increase your effective level for casting from a divine class by 1/4 your levels in non-divine classes (since divine classes are semi-gishes already), and 3/4 your levels in divine classes. Total up the bonus and then round down. In any case your bonus levels may not exceed your real levels. So a cleric 5 / druid 5 / wizard 5 casts as a cleric 10 / druid 10 / wizard 10.

This rule is more effective at low levels where MT is borderline unplayable, but less effective at high levels where mixes really shine. Plus it allows more class features which makes up for some of the high level drawbacks. I'd strongly consider also increasing the effective level for certain other class features such as wildshape, turning, and familiar progression. But don't grant new special abilities, bonus feats, BAB, saves, nor skill points. Even in the case of wild shape for example you'd need 5 true druid levels to get it, but your effective druid level for form HD would be higher.

Thanks for the suggestions. I had already been planning to give Horizon Walker Endurance, so I'll be sure to look at that for each class.

[Andor13]

Well, The question is how should the class differ from the prestige class? Is it simply a way to play the concept from level 1?

In 3.5 Arcane Archer is primarily a marital class, rather than a casting class. And there are kind of two ways to go with that. You can either step up the spell casting, which is what giving them even 4th level spells and a targeted version of imbue arrow does, or go the other way and drop spell casting entirely, but give them more martial magic like flaming arrows, and a few dimension doors a day, as well as martial abilities like bonus feats.

If you want to go the spell casting route, I think I'd make them a spontaneous caster like a bard or sorcerer, pulling from a list of your devising. Probably put a few custom spells into it, I think I would make that "Bow of Light" suggestion into a spell.

If the martial route appeals, I'd feel free to give them snazzier abilities (do not make Soulknife, the archer), and I'd probably fold both Imbue arrow and spell arrow into an ability to put spell magic into an arrow from a consumable magic item like a scroll or wand. That way the ability is more powerful and flexible, but always has a cost.

Edit: Martial magic, not marital. I mean, you could give them that too, but that's usually a social encounter.

[OgresAreCute]

Take Duskblade, make Arcane Channeling work with bows instead of melee attacks, make it work with burst spells instead of touch spells, change spell list.

[daremetoidareyo]

Take Duskblade, make Arcane Channeling work with bows instead of melee attacks, make it work with burst spells instead of touch spells, change spell list.

I would throw casting stat mod to damage somewhere at level 3-5. To address MADness

[ComaVision]

I would just make it an ACF for Warmage, myself...

[OgresAreCute]

I would throw casting stat mod to damage somewhere at level 3-5. To address MADness

Right, I forgot 3.5 devs hated archers.

[Arkain]

Perhaps I failed to explain myself. I didn't intend to do it like the Ranger, but the Duskblade route might be better anyway (and doesn't require me inventing my own spell progression). I assume most DMs (myself included) make magic items available at high levels: We're talking about unlimited magic ammunition that while not necessarily overwhelming do cut down cost quite a bit, plus I'm worried about being able to create any magic ammo they want (Slaying Arrows for instance). But maybe I'm worrying too much. Giving the feats is a solid suggestion, I'll do that.

I don't see much of a cost reduction. Essentially, a +1 bow is all you need to have "unlimited" magical arrows, as you pass enhancement bonus and whatnot on to your ammunition when you shoot. So cost reduction mostly happens whenever you have a non magical bow, which is not what happens a lot of the time, since as an archer you're the kind of character who wants and needs an enhanced weapon. As has been hinted at, if you go with your original plan of having wizard spells, there's Greater Magic Weapon to buff your weapon up on your own at the same rate as the ability (in case nobody else wants to or can do it for you), so it would mostly save you a spell known and a daily slot. It's nice, but I think you are overrating it.
What Pathfinder does is give additional enhancements to arrows instead of more +X, like elements or alignment. That would actually save some costs, since you could enhance your bow in other ways in addition to that.

[liquidformat]

Take Duskblade, make Arcane Channeling work with bows instead of melee attacks, make it work with burst spells instead of touch spells, change spell list.


I would just make it an ACF for Warmage, myself...

Ya I would say a bastardization of these two idea, Since you want a functional archer go full bab, d8, light armor prof, simple weapons + bows, 2+int skills (concentrate, spot, listen, tumble, hide, move silently, all knowledge, spell craft), good will save, duskblade spell progression, int based casting, arcane channeling+warmage edge, maybe being able to channel area effect spells certain number of times /day (maybe int mod+1/4 class levels), you could safely add the duskblade and warmage spell lists together and let them choose without worry, replace combat casting and iteratives of armored mage with archery feats, and spell power.

Even without jumping down the rabbithole of trying to adjust the prc directly you would have a powerful tier 3 archer.

[ericgrau]

Right, I forgot 3.5 devs hated archers.

Eh, it's more like archers don't have uberchargers. I've done well with ranged in casual games. It also depends on encounter distance. I've had focused melee forced to fall back on a sling or composite bow, which was a superior choice even with 0 build investment. And cramped spaces where I've been better off putting the bow away since my str was decent too. In any case you don't fix a system via specific classes or feats, you make broad yet moderate house rules if you really need them. Moderate because if you want to make dramatic changes then hire 100 play testers or play a different rpg.

There are multiple ideas suggested to replace the prestige class. I think all could work and there are a lot of ways to do it including the OP's way. Personally I'd scrap them all and divvy up their abilities as feats (or spells as suggested, or etc.) so players could take them a la carte. But again I think anything works. This is a good opportunity for the OP to go through all the ideas and pick and choose what he likes for his own preferred style.

[Nifft]

My experience is that archers get a lot more full attacks, and if they're not disrupted they will deliver a lot more damage than the typical non-ToB melee character.

If you introduce ToB melee or you allow uber-chargers, then full attacks are no longer inconvenient to arrange for melee PCs, and in those cases an archer might need more damage to compete.

Overall my experience agrees with ericgrau -- I've seen archery PCs do better in general than melee PCs.

[Kayblis]

About archers in 3.5, I believe they have a very binary rating. They are either bad without weapon enchants, or very very good with Splitting and Force enchantments. That's double the damage and no DR ever, which is big for a class based around multiple small hits.

That is because they mostly don't care about tactical positioning. Most the feat taxes are about nullifying positioning effects, and they can do a full attack from any sensible distance. They don't have to care about common effects such as Fatigue like uberchargers, so their damage is guaranteed whenever they can see a target. Melees, on the other hand, have many conditions to meet, from range to distance charged to strenght checks to scenery blocking their way. Archery is actually very strong in the fact that it's reliable like nothing else, so it makes sense to try and nerf it from a design perspective. They are the closest you can get from the "perfect" class when you first get to play D&D and only care about to-hit and damage.

[liquidformat]

About archers in 3.5, I believe they have a very binary rating. They are either bad without weapon enchants, or very very good with Splitting and Force enchantments. That's double the damage and no DR ever, which is big for a class based around multiple small hits.

That is because they mostly don't care about tactical positioning. Most the feat taxes are about nullifying positioning effects, and they can do a full attack from any sensible distance. They don't have to care about common effects such as Fatigue like uberchargers, so their damage is guaranteed whenever they can see a target. Melees, on the other hand, have many conditions to meet, from range to distance charged to strenght checks to scenery blocking their way. Archery is actually very strong in the fact that it's reliable like nothing else, so it makes sense to try and nerf it from a design perspective. They are the closest you can get from the "perfect" class when you first get to play D&D and only care about to-hit and damage.

Ya I built a goliath archer focused on range a while back for a quasi military game and he was quite horrifying when he was setup with a long flat view, or even better a perch. I was hitting some pretty stupid far distances where the enemy couldn't could get close enough to fight back by the time I took most of them out.