Does Any Tier 1 Classes Have Any Weakness At All?

[Bartmanhomer]

Hey everybody. I have a very interesting question to ask, Does any Tier 1 Classes (Such as Wizards, Clerics) have any weakness at all? I know that these classes can pretty much do just about everything but does these any of these classes have any weakness at all. They must have some sort of Achilles heel or Kryptonite that can cripple these classes.

[RoboEmperor]

Low Levels?
Dead Magic Zone?
No Down Time?
No full rest?
99 encounters a day?

[Ignimortis]

Hey everybody. I have a very interesting question to ask, Does any Tier 1 Classes (Such as Wizards, Clerics) have any weakness at all? I know that these classes can pretty much do just about everything but does these any of these classes have any weakness at all. They must have some sort of Achilles heel or Kryptonite that can cripple these classes.

Lower levels and spell slots. Sure, even a level 3 Wizard might have Glitterdust or Web. But those spells are only annoying in combat, they don't make you a god-like being as soon as you get them.

[Cosi]

It depends on the specific character, and the level of optimization.

It's certainly possible to make a Wizard or Cleric that is literally invincible, but in practice that's fairly rare.

Since you're probably not playing at that level, the answer is going to depend on what the character is doing. While there's sufficient variety in character builds that you can't be sure any particular thing will work, it is true that Clerics and Wizards (especially Wizards) are reliant on spells, which are a limited daily resource. As a result, a series of small encounters in sequence (or waves within a single encounter, it amounts to the same thing) can often put the Wizard in the position of not being willing to expend his most powerful spells against any particular encounter.

You can also generally go the other way and provide benefits to characters being overshadowed by Clerics and Wizards. "Artifact Sword" is practically a Fighter class feature for a reason.

However, I would really want more information before going into any particular detail. Are you asking out of pure curiosity, or are you having an in-game issue? If the latter, what level? What's the party composition? What specific actions are the casters taking that are a problem?

[Bartmanhomer]

It depends on the specific character, and the level of optimization.

It's certainly possible to make a Wizard or Cleric that is literally invincible, but in practice that's fairly rare.

Since you're probably not playing at that level, the answer is going to depend on what the character is doing. While there's sufficient variety in character builds that you can't be sure any particular thing will work, it is true that Clerics and Wizards (especially Wizards) are reliant on spells, which are a limited daily resource. As a result, a series of small encounters in sequence (or waves within a single encounter, it amounts to the same thing) can often put the Wizard in the position of not being willing to expend his most powerful spells against any particular encounter.

You can also generally go the other way and provide benefits to characters being overshadowed by Clerics and Wizards. "Artifact Sword" is practically a Fighter class feature for a reason.

However, I would really want more information before going into any particular detail. Are you asking out of pure curiosity, or are you having an in-game issue? If the latter, what level? What's the party composition? What specific actions are the casters taking that are a problem?

I'm just asking out of pure curiosity that's all. :smile:

[Buufreak]

Being played by someone that can't fully utilize the class comes to mind as perhaps the most commonplace shortcoming of these classes.

[LuminousWarrior]

Anti-magic field. Simple, clean, and a beholder can drop one on you with a stare. A smart beholder should always have some tough allies that function well in an anti-magic field.

For wizards specifically, target the spellbook.

[Recherché]

Playing the tier 1 classes to their full potential is seriously hard and time consuming. Most people just can't get everything out of them that they're theoretically capable of. So in practice they tend to come off a great deal weaker than the could be in theory.

[Bucky]

Uh, Druids drop all the way to tier 4 if you trick them into holding some kryptonite a metal shield.

[RoboEmperor]

Playing the tier 1 classes to their full potential is seriously hard and time consuming. Most people just can't get everything out of them that they're theoretically capable of. So in practice they tend to come off a great deal weaker than the could be in theory.

In my experience...
Guy wants to do X in the game.
X is not possible in core.
Guy reads books to figure out how to get X into the game.
Guy figures it out, which utilizes a complex combination of feats, PrC class features, and spells.
Guy is too OP for the group and non-tier 1s ***** how OP tier 1s are.

No one optimizes tier 1s for power's sake. They usually end up super powerful trying to do what they want to do.

[Deophaun]

No Down Time?
No full rest?
99 encounters a day?
All trivially remedied when you can just plane shift to your own personal demi-plane with slow time.

Tier 1s don't really have weaknesses. They just have areas where they don't outclass the others by as much.

[Arbane]

All trivially remedied when you can just plane shift to your own personal demi-plane with slow time.


...At level 7?

[RoboEmperor]

All trivially remedied when you can just plane shift to your own personal demi-plane with slow time.

Tier 1s don't really have weaknesses. They just have areas where they don't outclass the others by as much.

So you mean at level 17+ after spending 10000xp? And isn't the slow time thing a 3.0 thing? Didn't 3.5 get rid of that?

In any case even without time slow demi-plane tier 1s can trivially remedy that other ways. Minionmancy for example. One 18hd outsider like the Pit Fiend surpasses every single non tier1 party member.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Anti-magic field on a stealthy martial. This is a bigger problem with wizards and their low hit dice than for clerics or druids.

[Sto]

A bigger. Nastier Tier 1 class. A good go to is the Planar Shepherd.

[Goaty14]

T1 caster's weaknesses tend to be "this one thing utter destroys me", "I have already conquered the universe and every alternate dimension, what weaknesses?", or "I'm not high enough level to have immunity to that, gimme a second..."

I guess I mean to say that it is contingent upon the caster's level and optimization level.


So you mean at level 17+ after spending 10000xp? And isn't the slow time thing a 3.0 thing? Didn't 3.5 get rid of that?

Pretty sure they're still around somehow... I know in Eberron you can go to Dal Quor for the 10:1 time ratio, or Xoriat for the 1:60 ratio*.

*Ratios being <Plane Time>:<Prime Material Time>.


Anti-magic field on a stealthy martial. This is a bigger problem with wizards and their low hit dice than for clerics or druids.

Touche, my Initiate of Mystra cleric laughs at your pesky AMF.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Touche, my Initiate of Mystra cleric laughs at your pesky AMF.

I mean, sure. But you have to then (a) be playing in Forgotten Realms or have a DM who doesn't mind liberal amounts of campaign setting mashup, (b) specifically be a Cleric of Mystra, and (c) have this feat. The number of T1 characters with (a) and (b) satisfied is a tiny sliver of the whole. Admittedly, of those who already meet (a) and (b), a large number probably also meet (c). But yes, this is a good point that overall, there's no one anti-caster build that's always going to work.

[Arbane]

At low enough levels that they still have to lower themselves to interact with the physical world directly, silence, being grappled, and stealing their spell-component pouch/holy symbol can all hinder a spellcaster fairly effectively if they didn't go Full Paranoia.

Wizards have lousy Reflex and Fortitude saves, so things like nets or poison have a small chance of working.

[RoboEmperor]

I mean, sure. But you have to then (a) be playing in Forgotten Realms or have a DM who doesn't mind liberal amounts of campaign setting mashup, (b) specifically be a Cleric of Mystra, and (c) have this feat. The number of T1 characters with (a) and (b) satisfied is a tiny sliver of the whole. Admittedly, of those who already meet (a) and (b), a large number probably also meet (c). But yes, this is a good point that overall, there's no one anti-caster build that's always going to work.

You don't have to go so far to overcome AMFs. Minionmancy overcomes AMFs just fine.

[ericgrau]

Touche, my Initiate of Mystra cleric laughs at your pesky AMF.

I mean, sure. But you have to then (a) be playing in Forgotten Realms or have a DM who doesn't mind liberal amounts of campaign setting mashup, (b) specifically be a Cleric of Mystra, and (c) have this feat. The number of T1 characters with (a) and (b) satisfied is a tiny sliver of the whole. Admittedly, of those who already meet (a) and (b), a large number probably also meet (c). But yes, this is a good point that overall, there's no one anti-caster build that's always going to work.
Why do people even do this? Defenses rarely match a surprise attack.


You don't have to go so far to overcome AMFs. Minionmancy overcomes AMFs just fine.
This is a better answer because it's more general purpose, more easily attainable and could plausibly match multiple attacks. Though it's still far from perfect. For one the minions are usually visible to the guy sneaking up, and it's a non-action to switch strategies. Whereas switching defenses takes longer.

The bigger issue is getting the AMF on the sneaky guy. Sneaky battle cleric I guess. Or depending on how much effort went into the caster, sneak up and stab him before he casts. But then that's why false life is one of my favorite spells in casual optimization.

[Eldariel]

Anti-magic field on a stealthy martial. This is a bigger problem with wizards and their low hit dice than for clerics or druids.

AMF is kind of a dead giveaway completely removing your stealth from anyone with Arcane Sight (so basically every arcane caster)... Counterproductive more than anything. Same with magic items. You can't sneak up on a Wizard of level 9 or higher unless you're completely mundane and at that rate, the speed at which they move (Phantom Steed moves at at least 180' a move action, Teleport moves at hundreds of miles per second) makes it really hard for a sneak to actually sneak up on a caster in most circumstances; need to catch them standing still with stealth sites available with enough of their defenses down that they can get them, which really just won't happen if they are actually playing up to their tier.

[Silly Name]

Any Tier 1 is only as good as the player using it. Sure, Wizard is Tier 1, but a lot of people tend to focus their Wizards into certain schools or tactics, which might leave them open to certain counter-tactics. Enchantment Wizard solving every encounter by Charming enemies? Use monsters immune to mind-affecting spells. Blaster Wizard spamming AoEs? Use quick foes who quickly close, forcing the Wizard to melee.

Remember, Tiers derive from what the class can, potentially, do, but unless you're playing with a very good optimizer, it's unlikely they're going to be always able to lolnope every problem. They might be able to lolnope most problems most of the time, but maybe they didn't prepare the spell needed for the situation (assuming, of course, they don't have access to Wish/Miracle or other spell-replicating stuff), or they botch a saving throw/caster check.

[RoboEmperor]

This is a better answer because it's more general purpose, more easily attainable and could plausibly match multiple attacks. Though it's still far from perfect. For one the minions are usually visible to the guy sneaking up, and it's a non-action to switch strategies. Whereas switching defenses takes longer.

I don't understand how this is far from perfect. No matter what strategy you choose the minion or minions will overcome all of it.

[Edenbeast]

For wizards specifically, target the spellbook.

I've seen this proposed before, but I always find it rather confusing for several reasons. I guess part is to blame those fantasy pictures and miniatures depicting wizards (and, for that matter, clerics with prayerbooks) to carry their book on their belt like a cowboy carries his pistol. It looks cool, I admit, but it's absurd.

The wizard prepares his spells during one hour of studying his book. Then those spells are memorised and he won't actually need his book for the rest of the day. Instead, store your book somewhere safe, e.g. in your backpack, handy haversack or bag of holding. Wrap it in some waterproof and/or heat resistant case to feel more secure about your book if you want.

As a DM I never target the book for these reasons: the wizard will normally have their book in their backpack. Are the monsters really going out of their way to target a backpack? Even more, what use is it? It will not make a difference for the current battle, only for the next day when wizard has to prepare new spells. Sure, for the long term that hurts, and if the players are in some longer battle that occurs over several encounters (e.g. an army) the leading antagonist could aim for that. (I admit, that would be smart.) Then again, a smart/paranoid wizard has a copy at home or at the university, for example.

A better and more effective tactic is to sunder the caster's spell component pouch. This also makes sense, since the enemy can see you take that rotten egg out of that pouch and use it to cast a stinking cloud. Oh wait, it also requires some skunk cabbage leaves? Whoops, the druid's elephant ate those last night! Since it's not magical like, for example, an endless quiver, then you must run out of components at some point...

Enforcing spellcasters to keep track of their spell components can tone them down a bit. The PHB is a bit ambiguous about how much is actually in there, except for costly components, divine focus, or a focus that doesn't actually fit in a pouch (here's another one for you to look up :smallsmile:). TBH, I'm never that strict with players, it's just too much bookkeeping.

Pretty much all spells do require material components, so without a spell component pouch, unless he has a spare or took the Eschew Materials feat, a caster is screwed. You can also sunder the spell casting focus, such as the holy symbol. The lich necromancer would be smart to make that the first priority, before he sees his army turned/rebuked.

[Deophaun]

So you mean at level 17+ after spending 10000xp?
Plane shift is available at level 9.

The basic idea of nipping off to another dimension away from your enemies to rest and recuperate exists as soon as level 3 with rope trick. It is merely made perfect when you get genesis, as opposed to being gated by it.

...At level 7?
...At level 0? At level 13? At level 57?

[Aharon]

Hey everybody. I have a very interesting question to ask, Does any Tier 1 Classes (Such as Wizards, Clerics) have any weakness at all? I know that these classes can pretty much do just about everything but does these any of these classes have any weakness at all. They must have some sort of Achilles heel or Kryptonite that can cripple these classes.

Yes, they do. One of them is concentration checks. Most DMs I know play without concentration checks because they slow the game down and they assume the caster will make the check anyway, but the second assumption is often wrong:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498396-Short-guide-to-forcing-concentration-checks-and-other-mean-caster-blockers

[RoboEmperor]

Plane shift is available at level 9.

The basic idea of nipping off to another dimension away from your enemies to rest and recuperate exists as soon as level 3 with rope trick. It is merely made perfect when you get genesis, as opposed to being gated by it.

So what's stopping the DM saying you plane shifted right in front of some CR appropriate creature that will brutally murder you? or that while you're resting some CR appropriate monster attacks you? Or that the guys pursuing you and preventing you from resting pursued you into the time accelerated plane?

If you want to rest with 100% safety you need something better than "I teleport to somewhere else". Maybe "I teleport next to my deity in the planes of celestia surrounded by Solars"?

[Goaty14]

As a DM I never target the book for these reasons: the wizard will normally have their book in their backpack. Are the monsters really going out of their way to target a backpack?

Yes, because your "monsters" are intelligent enough to clearly know that this is an arcane spellcaster, and likely has a spellbook, which is normally stored in the backpack.


Even more, what use is it? It will not make a difference for the current battle, only for the next day when wizard has to prepare new spells. Sure, for the long term that hurts, and if the players are in some longer battle that occurs over several encounters (e.g. an army) the leading antagonist could aim for that.

Or a recurring villain that's not mindless and knows when to teleport away in order to save his life.


(I admit, that would be smart.) Then again, a smart/paranoid wizard has a copy at home or at the university, for example.

...Until they have to level up, at which point they have to go all the way back to their copy and scribe in the new spells, or end up with an non-updated spellbook. The actual smart wizard takes the Eidetic Wizard ACF and removes the need for a spellbook entirely.


Oh wait, it also requires some skunk cabbage leaves? Whoops, the druid's elephant ate those last night! Since it's not magical like, for example, an endless quiver, then you must run out of components at some point...

Whoops, I guess the druid's elephant has unlimited food now! While a reasonable application of physics to D&D (which you should never do), there's no explicit or implicit text that says that it isn't limitless -- it's just assumed that a spellcaster with a spell component pouch has the components for whatever he/she needs at all times.

What we do know, however, is that the spell component pouch exists solely to remove the problem of spellcasters ending up meticulously keeping track of their components, which was a thing in previous editions.


Enforcing spellcasters to keep track of their spell components can tone them down a bit.
...
Pretty much all spells do require material components, so without a spell component pouch, unless he has a spare

These spell components?:

-Spell Component Pouch
-Backup Spell Component Pouch
-Hidden Spell Component Pouch
-Backup Backup Spell Component Pouch (that my familiar carries)
-Ethereal Backup Backup Backup Spell Component Pouch
-Instant Summons Backup Backup Backup Backup Spell Component Pouch

There, now that I have my spell components listed, we can actually get back to the game and stop playing the DM's version of banking & spreadsheet simulator.


Or that the guys pursuing you and preventing you from resting pursued you into the time accelerated plane?

Because you can deny access to your demiplane from whomever you want, IIRC. Unless the true enemies were your "allies" all along, I don't see this happening.

[Eldan]

It depends entirely on how far the wizard is willing and able to go and what the DM allows.

Pun-pun has no weakness. Literally, it says so on his character sheet. "No weakness (ex): you have no weakness".

An optimized wizard is incredibly hard to get rid of, at Tippy-levels.

Even at mid-optimization, careful application of a few spells solves just about any problem.

But then, there's always low-optimization wizards. If your wizard doesn't know how to defend himself from melee guys, any appropriate melee monster will kill them in a round or two.

[RoboEmperor]

Because you can deny access to your demiplane from whomever you want, IIRC. Unless the true enemies were your "allies" all along, I don't see this happening.

We're not talking about Genesis, we're talking about 9th level plane shift.

[Deophaun]

So what's stopping the DM saying you plane shifted right in front of some CR appropriate creature that will brutally murder you?
What's stopping your DM from saying "rocks fall, everyone dies?" (Edit: Oh, a LOL at the "CR appropriate creature that will brutally murder you" line. They don't exist.)

or that while you're resting some CR appropriate monster attacks you?
Rope trick[I], to start. Up to [I]magnificent mansion. Or, radical idea, do some research on the plane, personally familiarize yourself with it, and set up an actual sanctuary there before you need it. you know, like any other safehouse.

Or that the guys pursuing you and preventing you from resting pursued you into the time accelerated plane?
If the weakness of a tier 1 is another, badder tier 1, that's not much of a weakness.

Also, they're going to need 1) a proper focus attuned to the plane 2) to know to which plane you plane shifted and where 3) greater plane shift.

[RoboEmperor]

What's stopping your DM from saying "rocks fall, everyone dies?" (Edit: Oh, a LOL at the "CR appropriate creature that will brutally murder you" line. They don't exist.)

I assume the tier 1 is out of spells and cast plane shift to rest. A spell-less tier 1 is gonna get brutally murdered by a CR appropriate creature.[/QUOTE]

In any case, I do agree a 9th level spellcaster is going to have no weaknesses because this is the level lesser planar binding comes online. Minionmancy solves all weaknesses.

So tier 1s have a weaknesses levels 1-8, and from 9+ they got no weaknesses.

[Deophaun]

I assume the tier 1 is out of spells and cast plane shift to rest.A tier 1 that waits until they're out of spells before getting to safety is doing paranoia wrong.

[Efrate]

Their biggest weakness is when they are forced to fight not on their terms. They (un)fortunatly have the tools to make nearly any situation into their terms. That's their biggest strength.

If you are not just arms racing you need to find a way to force them to interact in a way that isn't set up in their favor. If you cannot you are going to be at a constant disadvantage.

[Eldan]

A tier 1 that waits until they're out of spells before getting to safety is doing paranoia wrong.

Especially when just casting Planeshift relatively blindly. Because the DM is perfectly justified in occasionally not just putting you in a restful situation. You have, after all, little control over where you end up. Yes, even on Elysium there's conflict.

[Cosi]

Ambushing people when they rest doesn't really work. It just makes people rest earlier, which is usually the opposite of the stated goal. Players are always going to budget their resources so they have enough of them to comfortably handle the number of encounters they expect. If you cause them to expect an encounter while resting, they'll simply seek out one less encounter while adventuring.

[ericgrau]

I don't understand how this is far from perfect. No matter what strategy you choose the minion or minions will overcome all of it.

Minions tend to be weak and every strategy is imperfect. A simple area spell/ability or BFC spell tends to take care of them. Which the attacker can switch to as a non-action. They're hard to teleport too and often easy to exterminate in preparation for another future attack. Even if it's not part of a greater plan this can happen with two completed unrelated foes.

Now if you mean chain gating solars or similar, that's more theoretical OP.

[Telonius]

They all have at least two: the player and the DM. As several other people here have mentioned, playing a fully-optimized character is hard. It takes loads of planning, time, and attention. Most (most, not all) players are either incapable or unwilling to play the power up to its full potential. It took years of collaboration with thousands of nerds to get some of the more famous builds together. Most people just aren't going to internalize all that enough to use it on the fly in an actual game.

Second is the DM. The DM is the ultimate stop to any in-game shenanigans. If the DM says, "Sorry, Pun-Pun already ascended. One of his Nut-Puns clonks you on the head with an Acorn of Nope and says try something else," then that's what happens.

Within the game, it's possible to make yourself literally invincible, but you'll still have the Bigger Fish problem. If you (as a 16th-level Wizard) can do it, a 21st-level Wizard has probably already done it and might not want you to do the same.

[Malphegor]

What I've found with wizard shenanigans is that literally anyone who's kitted out to kill a barbarian is going to seriously incapacitate you if they strike the flying madman in the pointy hat. We have so few hitpoints, even with higher levels, once you can actually land a hit on us, it's debilitating.

Now, that said, we've got a lot of tools, but our ability to use those tools is dependant on knowing what's coming up. Is today a fighting day, or is it a diplomatic day? Do I need to firebolt the cute necromancer the druid thinks is hot, or are we going to persuade the evil magic user to join us... Or do I need featherfall, should my cantrips be damaging or utility focused?

Sure, when all you have is fire, everything looks like a can of gas, but it's so easy to be fooled into packing the wrong spells for the day, and that's when we struggle to be more than just another party member, and fail to be the GOD they expect.

[Particle_Man]

1) Save a copy of their first level character sheet. Wait until they are higher level.
2) Have them encounter a Time Lord, who disappears.
3) Bring out their first level character sheet and tell them that they have to, as their younger self, fight this strange dude that just appeared that they never met, who claims he is a time lord who will kill them before they get too powerful.
4) Hilarity Ensues.

[tiercel]

They all have at least two: the player and the DM. As several other people here have mentioned, playing a fully-optimized character is hard. It takes loads of planning, time, and attention. Most (most, not all) players are either incapable or unwilling to play the power up to its full potential. It took years of collaboration with thousands of nerds to get some of the more famous builds together. Most people just aren't going to internalize all that enough to use it on the fly in an actual game.

I’d go further than this and say that most players have no intention of engineering a 100% optimized character for a given actual game (as opposed to a TO exercise). D&D is a game — a group game, at that — and playing something like Superman-without-even-Kryptonite and rendering the game’s challenges (and/or other PCs) pointless seems.... not fun? (Never mind that other players or the DM might have something to say about your interpretation of, or attempted RAW literalism with regards to, the rules.)

I’d go so far as to push back against the “Stormwind Fallacy” fallacy and say that yes, roleplaying can also actually be part of a conscious decision to not 100% optimize, whether it is out of desire to design (or even optimize) to a certain theme other than “raw power” or just because maybe the player would like his Wizard to actually get an ale in the tavern with his friends rather than do something like send a Projected Image from his Superior Invisibility astral projection as he cowers in his inaccessible personal time-is-whatever-I-want-it-to-be demiplane guarded by infinite legions of mindslaved outsiders.

—For that matter, a given player may just not WANT to only play a version of someone else’s prepackaged build, and may not have arbitrarily large amounts of time or patience to work in every possible optimization advantage AND flavor the character’s RP aspects as wanted too. (Just because optimization and roleplaying are not necessarily incompatible doesn’t mean that one never comes at the expense of the other.)

And then of course, there very much IS the DM.


Second is the DM. The DM is the ultimate stop to any in-game shenanigans. If the DM says, "Sorry, Pun-Pun already ascended. One of his Nut-Puns clonks you on the head with an Acorn of Nope and says try something else," then that's what happens.

Within the game, it's possible to make yourself literally invincible, but you'll still have the Bigger Fish problem. If you (as a 16th-level Wizard) can do it, a 21st-level Wizard has probably already done it and might not want you to do the same.

This. If unassailable power is actually attainable in the campaign you’re playing, why in the name of all the planes would your character be the first one ever to seek, much less attain, it?

There’s a reason many games disallow certain tactics, whether it’s DM fiat (bans, houserules, interpretations, etc.) or “gentlemen’s agreements” between DM and players to simply Not Do certain things; allowing truly unassailable power pretty much ends a campaign, whether it be

1) Bigger Fish / Githyanki Queen problem “Just as your character is about to attain the level that would unlock Total Win Macro #1, the BBEG, due to infinite divinations that cannot be 100% blocked, realizes this, and sends an infinite amount of power at you — death no save, no recovery, you lose, campaign ends.”

2) Be Careful What You Wish for problem “You know what? Fine. Somehow, no one in the history of the multiverse ever had this idea before you, you unlock Total Win Macro #1, and nothing can stop you or even avoid you. You win everything forever, campaign ends.”

———

Having said all this, the point of “Tier 1” in practice (in my experience, at least) is not so much perfect or infinite anything as it is the flexibility that Tier 1 has in practice to at least greatly mitigate any weakness. Where that point falls is a question of gaming style of the actual group — if all the players and the DM enjoy a similar level of optimization, the game can be challenging and fun for everyone, but if not, there can be problems.

So in a sense, the weakness of Tier 1 characters is the game itself, ironically because a given game’s fun may be as threatened by the attempted power level of a Tier 1 character as by anything else.

[Arbane]

In any case, I do agree a 9th level spellcaster is going to have no weaknesses because this is the level lesser planar binding comes online. Minionmancy solves all weaknesses.


Unless they actually roll dice and get a bad result, leaving them with an angry outsider in their face.
(I had that happen in a game of Exalted - sorcerer rolled amazingly badly on the willpower check several times, resulting in them running through their manse with an pillar of silver fire chasing them. Fun time.)


So in a sense, the weakness of Tier 1 characters is the game itself, ironically because a given game’s fun may be as threatened by the attempted power level of a Tier 1 character as by anything else.

Yup. There's a reason tiers 1 and 2 are described as being able to break the game. So many plotlines and challenges can be shut down completely with one well-chosen spell.

[RoboEmperor]

Minions tend to be weak and every strategy is imperfect. A simple area spell/ability or BFC spell tends to take care of them. Which the attacker can switch to as a non-action. They're hard to teleport too and often easy to exterminate in preparation for another future attack. Even if it's not part of a greater plan this can happen with two completed unrelated foes.

Now if you mean chain gating solars or similar, that's more theoretical OP.

I was talking about planar binding. Lesser Planar Binding can replace the entire party.


Unless they actually roll dice and get a bad result, leaving them with an angry outsider in their face.
(I had that happen in a game of Exalted - sorcerer rolled amazingly badly on the willpower check several times, resulting in them running through their manse with an pillar of silver fire chasing them. Fun time.)

It depends on the build. A cleric with the Demonic domain has Surge of Fortune to guarantee 100% success rate on the charisma check. Wizards can grab it at 10 via Wyrm Wizard. So only the Will Save matters.

[SLOTHRPG95]

You don't have to go so far to overcome AMFs. Minionmancy overcomes AMFs just fine.


This is a better answer because it's more general purpose, more easily attainable and could plausibly match multiple attacks. Though it's still far from perfect. For one the minions are usually visible to the guy sneaking up, and it's a non-action to switch strategies. Whereas switching defenses takes longer.

The bigger issue is getting the AMF on the sneaky guy. Sneaky battle cleric I guess. Or depending on how much effort went into the caster, sneak up and stab him before he casts. But then that's why false life is one of my favorite spells in casual optimization.


AMF is kind of a dead giveaway completely removing your stealth from anyone with Arcane Sight (so basically every arcane caster)... Counterproductive more than anything. Same with magic items. You can't sneak up on a Wizard of level 9 or higher unless you're completely mundane and at that rate, the speed at which they move (Phantom Steed moves at at least 180' a move action, Teleport moves at hundreds of miles per second) makes it really hard for a sneak to actually sneak up on a caster in most circumstances; need to catch them standing still with stealth sites available with enough of their defenses down that they can get them, which really just won't happen if they are actually playing up to their tier.

I mean, minionmancy solves a lot of problems, but as noted above (and in other places), unless you're going to cheese levels of optimization, it doesn't solve literally ALL the problems, especially as stealthy character can change up strategy after recon without T1 caster knowing they were ever there.

As to every caster having Arcane Sight active always at level 9, some problems. First, although admittedly nit-picky, you need CL 11 to make Arcane Sight permanent. Second, it's something you can only make permanent on self, so your wizard can have it but your cleric or druid is out of luck. Third, by RAW I'm not sure if Arcane Sight even detects AMF directly, or if it's just a conspicuous 10-ft. radius lack of magic, as magical effects (including your Sight) don't pierce the AMF. Fourth, and most importantly, Arcane Sight only helps if you aren't sleeping and have direct line of sight. If you can predict when/where a wizard will be (or track them if they haven't properly warded themselves from divinations), you can definitely sneak up on them and kill them while they sleep. To be fair, this isn't a T1-specific weakness, but having Listen cross-class makes it all the harder to overcome the -10 to hear people coming while you sleep. Yes I realize none of this is a problem for a TO wizard, or even for for a high-op wizard. But "sneaking up on someone in the night and slitting their throats" isn't exactly high-op tactics. It's one of the oldest moves in the book. No tactics relying on a finite set of resources is without a hard counter, so even a high-op wizard has hard counters (until really high level).

tl; dr you can't protect against everything, unless your DM already let you wholly break the game

[RoboEmperor]

I mean, minionmancy solves a lot of problems, but as noted above (and in other places), unless you're going to cheese levels of optimization, it doesn't solve literally ALL the problems, especially as stealthy character can change up strategy after recon without T1 caster knowing they were ever there.

It solves all CR-appropriate problems. Gargantuan Animated Objects via Ravids can keep the spellcaster inside its body while they pummel and grapple everything to death. Succubi trivializes all encounters with creatures not immune to mind-affecting. Nightmares are top level cheese with astral projection. The only thing Lesser Planar Binding lacks is damage, but damage isn't the most important part of d&d. Battlefield control is and Lesser Planar Binding has way too many creatures with BFC like the aforementioned grapple king.

I will say AMF does hurt Lesser Planar Binding a lot, but still there are Steel Devils, Movanic Devas, other outsiders who are decent beaters.

Also who gives a **** if the stealthy character changes strategies? If he is literally incapable of doing anything then why do you care if he backs off and runs away?

[TotallyNotEvil]

So tier 1s have a weaknesses levels 1-8, and from 9+ they got no weaknesses.
:sigh:

It's pretty pointless to ask those kinds of questions around here, isn't it?

To answer the OP: they are as mortal as any other creature. Specifically, someone with Mageslayer so they can't cast defensively will ruin their day, multiple encounters in a day will seriously strain them, getting their weak saves targeted can very well get them one-shot before they know something's up, a bad matchup for their chosen loadout can easily spell their doom.

Unless you all you get to do is five-minute adventuring days and always fight static, dumb monsters who don't exist beyond their 30x30ft rooms.

[SLOTHRPG95]

It solves all CR-appropriate problems. Gargantuan Animated Objects via Ravids can keep the spellcaster inside its body while they pummel and grapple everything to death. Succubi trivializes all encounters with creatures not immune to mind-affecting. Nightmares are top level cheese with astral projection. The only thing Lesser Planar Binding lacks is damage, but damage isn't the most important part of d&d. Battlefield control is and Lesser Planar Binding has way too many creatures with BFC like the aforementioned grapple king.

I will say AMF does hurt Lesser Planar Binding a lot, but still there are Steel Devils, Movanic Devas, other outsiders who are decent beaters.

Also who gives a **** if the stealthy character changes strategies? If he is literally incapable of doing anything then why do you care if he backs off and runs away?

"Once per round, a random object within 20 feet of a ravid animates as though by the spell animate objects (caster level 20th). These objects defend the ravid to the best of their ability, but the ravid isn’t intelligent enough to employ elaborate tactics with them."
-d20srd, on Ravids

It seems to me that the whole random part of that causes problems with that particular strategy. Sure, maybe a small hut animates and lets you rest inside while it remains firmly shut, or maybe the Ravid has currently animated mostly spoons and trinkets and bits of lint. Given that the vast majority of objects in most locations are going to be small, useless things, I think it really all depends on the distribution. If "random" means each object in the range has equal probability, this seems pretty weak.

As for the Succubus, are you sure you want to try binding one at 9th level? Assuming you've done your Magic Circle w/ diagram plus Dimensional Anchor prep (because if you haven't, what are you even doing?), you're looking at a Charisma check DC 24 + your Cha for the mind-controlling, energy-draining demon you just summoned. So if you dumped Cha, its +8 gives it a better than one in four chance of breaking free and messing you up. If you didn't dump Cha since you anticipated this sort of problem with your build, you still have to beat it in an opposed Cha check to bind it to your service. That's probably going to take several days, leading to the real weakness of minionmancy builds like this: they require lots downtime. Maybe you have plenty to spare, or maybe you're actually busy doing time-sensitive tasks, and don't have endless amounts of time to prep. Some games might do the former, but I feel like most do the latter. This puts builds that rely on lots of down-time (miniomancers, Artificers, etc.) at a severe relative disadvantage.

As to the "who cares if they change strategies" thing, see my earlier point about no set of tactics with finite resources being unbeatable. To assume that stealthy martials are literally incapable of doing anything that would harm your wizard is just doing paranoia wrong.

[RoboEmperor]

It seems to me that the whole random part of that causes problems with that particular strategy. Sure, maybe a small hut animates and lets you rest inside while it remains firmly shut, or maybe the Ravid has currently animated mostly spoons and trinkets and bits of lint. Given that the vast majority of objects in most locations are going to be small, useless things, I think it really all depends on the distribution. If "random" means each object in the range has equal probability, this seems pretty weak.

If it's the only object in its vicinity then there is literally nothing random about it. If you want to optimize have the Ravid fly in and out of 20 gargantuan objects' heads to keep 20 animated at once.


As for the Succubus, are you sure you want to try binding one at 9th level? Assuming you've done your Magic Circle w/ diagram plus Dimensional Anchor prep (because if you haven't, what are you even doing?), you're looking at a Charisma check DC 24 + your Cha for the mind-controlling, energy-draining demon you just summoned. So if you dumped Cha, its +8 gives it a better than one in four chance of breaking free and messing you up. If you didn't dump Cha since you anticipated this sort of problem with your build, you still have to beat it in an opposed Cha check to bind it to your service. That's probably going to take several days, leading to the real weakness of minionmancy builds like this: they require lots downtime. Maybe you have plenty to spare, or maybe you're actually busy doing time-sensitive tasks, and don't have endless amounts of time to prep. Some games might do the former, but I feel like most do the latter. This puts builds that rely on lots of down-time (miniomancers, Artificers, etc.) at a severe relative disadvantage.

Succubus was just an example on the top of my head. Your'e correct that without down time tier 1s suck (in my 1st post i said this was a weakness) but after you get that first down time after level 9 your minions can give you all the down time you need.

Of course, if it's a campaign with a time limit it's a different story but still, even just 1 Gargantuan Animated Object is more than enough to pull your weight in combat without any spells.

[noob]

1) Save a copy of their first level character sheet. Wait until they are higher level.
2) Have them encounter a Time Lord, who disappears.
3) Bring out their first level character sheet and tell them that they have to, as their younger self, fight this strange dude that just appeared that they never met, who claims he is a time lord who will kill them before they get too powerful.
4) Hilarity Ensues.

So the elven generalist domain wizard who started his life with casting time stop and ascending to godhood then traveling back in time for using the rule that time travel with travel through time can not do any major change to make his Ascension in godhood inevitable is supposed to be countered by that?
Since he just have to never use the option to go back to his current time and so he will always be "time traveling" and so time travel will never be able to do any major change.

Travel through time is worded in such a way that logic just plain simply die once that specific spell is cast.

On the other hand the level 1 wizard who never knew about time travel in his whole life(even after reaching high levels which is quite incoherent) and which started with level 1 spell slots would die but tier one does only means "with the most options to break the game hard" which do not involve necessarily using them all for making yourself invincible.

[JNAProductions]

:sigh:

It's pretty pointless to ask those kinds of questions around here, isn't it?

To answer the OP: they are as mortal as any other creature. Specifically, someone with Mageslayer so they can't cast defensively will ruin their day, multiple encounters in a day will seriously strain them, getting their weak saves targeted can very well get them one-shot before they know something's up, a bad matchup for their chosen loadout can easily spell their doom.

Unless you all you get to do is five-minute adventuring days and always fight static, dumb monsters who don't exist beyond their 30x30ft rooms.

I don't think you quite understand how powerful a well-built and played T1 caster is.

I'll echo what's been said already: Played perfectly, a T1 caster is basically invulnerable. But no one wants to play them at that level-excepting maybe Tippy. Because it takes a shedload of mental effort, and it wouldn't be fun for anyone else even if the player finds it fun.

[Cosi]

The whole "you can build a totally invincible caster" thing is a red herring. Yes, that is absolutely something you can do. But you can do it as any class. The tricks that allow you to make an invincible Wizard or Cleric also allow you to make an invincible Fighter or Rogue. Indeed, the fastest access to those tricks flows through class-agnostic channels (e.g. the Candle of Invocation). So to have any meaningful discussion about the power of the "Wizard" or the "Cleric" rather than "this infinite loop I figured out", you have to assume that people are not in fact optimizing to that level. Because at that level every character of every class looks the same.

[SLOTHRPG95]

If it's the only object in its vicinity then there is literally nothing random about it. If you want to optimize have the Ravid fly in and out of 20 gargantuan objects' heads to keep 20 animated at once.



Succubus was just an example on the top of my head. Your'e correct that without down time tier 1s suck (in my 1st post i said this was a weakness) but after you get that first down time after level 9 your minions can give you all the down time you need.

Of course, if it's a campaign with a time limit it's a different story but still, even just 1 Gargantuan Animated Object is more than enough to pull your weight in combat without any spells.

I mean sure, if you can guarantee that the Ravid is never within 300 ft. of any objects save for the ones you want animated, it works.

But generally yeah, I agree with your earlier point about lack of down time being a weakness. Not sure if it makes them suck, though. I think for no-op or low-op it isn't so much of a problem. In a world of sword-and-board single-class fighters, the unoptimized generalist wizard still doesn't suck. Even with no down time, just using magic day-of, there are plenty of powerful mid-to-high level spells.

[RoboEmperor]

I mean sure, if you can guarantee that the Ravid is never within 300 ft. of any objects save for the ones you want animated, it works.

It's not 300ft it's 20ft, you need line of effect, and he can redirect the animated objects effect to the object he wants to as a move action.

[Eldariel]

I mean, minionmancy solves a lot of problems, but as noted above (and in other places), unless you're going to cheese levels of optimization, it doesn't solve literally ALL the problems, especially as stealthy character can change up strategy after recon without T1 caster knowing they were ever there.

As to every caster having Arcane Sight active always at level 9, some problems. First, although admittedly nit-picky, you need CL 11 to make Arcane Sight permanent. Second, it's something you can only make permanent on self, so your wizard can have it but your cleric or druid is out of luck. Third, by RAW I'm not sure if Arcane Sight even detects AMF directly, or if it's just a conspicuous 10-ft. radius lack of magic, as magical effects (including your Sight) don't pierce the AMF. Fourth, and most importantly, Arcane Sight only helps if you aren't sleeping and have direct line of sight. If you can predict when/where a wizard will be (or track them if they haven't properly warded themselves from divinations), you can definitely sneak up on them and kill them while they sleep. To be fair, this isn't a T1-specific weakness, but having Listen cross-class makes it all the harder to overcome the -10 to hear people coming while you sleep. Yes I realize none of this is a problem for a TO wizard, or even for for a high-op wizard. But "sneaking up on someone in the night and slitting their throats" isn't exactly high-op tactics. It's one of the oldest moves in the book. No tactics relying on a finite set of resources is without a hard counter, so even a high-op wizard has hard counters (until really high level).

tl; dr you can't protect against everything, unless your DM already let you wholly break the game

Actually, Arcane Sight penetrates a lot of obstacles: the only things that block it are 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm). Fog, darkness or the sort are meaningless against it. And AMF is a spell so it should radiate just the same as everything else. Note, Arcane Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneSight.htm) is range: personal and target: you. In other words, the effect only affects you so you don't need magic to be able to affect the target area. Thus, AMF should radiate an aura just as much as everything else. And you really should be resting in extraplanar spaces from level 5 onwards anyways so that's a moot point. "Cast Extended Rope Trick and rest there" isn't exactly high op - that's literally the whole point of the spell. No reason you can't do that from an inn room or whatever too.

[torrasque666]

I'm 90% sure that high level wizards have forgotten how to actually use their eyes after all their reliance of divinations. So just walking up covered in a lead sheet should work.

[Crake]

I find balhannoths are pretty anti-caster. Super stealthy, no teleportation within 20ft of them, and if they grab you you're trapped in an antimagic field, so no magical escape.

Also, initiate of mystra isn't the end-all of AMFs, there's still a good chance of your spells failing to function.

[Deophaun]

and if they grab you you're trapped in an antimagic field, so no magical escape.
The problem is that they have to grab you, first, for the AMF to activate. Which means freedom of movement still trumps it, and heart of water is not that an uncommon buff at the levels you're likely to start running into it.

[eggynack]

The problem is that they have to grab you, first, for the AMF to activate. Which means freedom of movement still trumps it, and heart of water is not that an uncommon buff at the levels you're likely to start running into it.
Interestingly, a heart of water that is cast normally but only activated once you're in the balhannoth's mouth seems like it'd work fine here. The attack isn't an AMF, precisely, but instead simply turns off your items and stops you from casting spells or using spell-likes or supernaturals. So, all your buffs stay up and available for activation even if you become grappled.

[ryu]

Interestingly, a heart of water that is cast normally but only activated once you're in the balhannoth's mouth seems like it'd work fine here. The attack isn't an AMF, precisely, but instead simply turns off your items and stops you from casting spells or using spell-likes or supernaturals. So, all your buffs stay up and available for activation even if you become grappled.

So it's even more farcically weak than a normal AMF?

[tiercel]

Thus, AMF should radiate an aura just as much as everything else.

An antimagic field... should radiate magic? (Is that a bit like the D&D equivalent of Hawking radiation from the environs of a black hole? ;) )


And you really should be resting in extraplanar spaces from level 5 onwards anyways so that's a moot point. "Cast Extended Rope Trick and rest there" isn't exactly high op - that's literally the whole point of the spell. No reason you can't do that from an inn room or whatever too.

I would guess that in practice this is potentially a YMMV point, depending on how a given DM reads the text at the end of Rope Trick:

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.

If a DM reads this as “you must check all your extradimensional baggage outside the Rope Trick before boarding,” that is a potentially significant restriction (especially when Handy Haversacks et al become practically adventuring standard issue).

[ryu]

Technically the only stated reaction involves a bag of holding and a portable hole.

Even if you must argue for more interactions enveloping pit functions perfectly fine, and when in use doesn't even create an extra dimensional space.

Or just go non-magical bags and let people with actual strength scores carry the loot.

Or as before but hire cheap expendable muscle.

[Arbane]

Dying from hitpoint loss like a snivelling mortal before they get to high enough level to become invincible.

[noob]

Dying from hitpoint loss like a snivelling mortal before they get to high enough level to become invincible.

Which can be any level from 1 to 49 depending on the build and/or abuses used.

[ryu]

Dying from hitpoint loss like a snivelling mortal before they get to high enough level to become invincible.

That level lowers the higher your optimization. At highest it's level one, but even using fairly straightforward tactics marked out for people who don't want to die you still have the best defense of the average party at level one.

[tiercel]

Technically the only stated reaction involves a bag of holding and a portable hole.

Even if you must argue for more interactions enveloping pit functions perfectly fine, and when in use doesn't even create an extra dimensional space.

While you are correct that only interaction with specific details is the bag of holding/portable hole one, the blanket text at the end of Rope Trick’s spell description certainly gives the DM room to say that Something Bad will happen, even if it isn’t necessarily specifically the BoH/PH one.

Enveloping Pit’s description says that it functions “like a portable hole,” so I’m not sure how it would escape these sorts of interactions. (Also, of course, you have to be one of the correct alignments, and then there is the minor matter of carrying around a relic of a kobold god in order to lug your stuff around, in case anyone in-campaign actually cares about that.)


Or just go non-magical bags and let people with actual strength scores carry the loot.

Or as before but hire cheap expendable muscle.

These certainly work, though they do impose at least a certain cost to using Rope Trick if you are going to rely on the BSF or minions to carry your stuff. (Plus “I’m paying these NPCs to carry my valuables” introduces a whole other possible dynamic in itself.) Giving up on extradimensional storage also means that casters might not be able to dump Strength quite so hard if they can’t necessarily count on Handy Haversacks etc... much less the ability to “retrieve needed item as a move action” (especially scrolls or wands).

[ryu]

More like the druid, the druid's animal companion, the cleric, or so on.

Also in what goddamn world are you expecting the wizard to be incapable of carrying his own scrolls and wands? Those things are pathetically light even by strength 8. No I was mostly talking about all the otherwise useless over-heavy loot.

[tiercel]

Also in what goddamn world are you expecting the wizard to be incapable of carrying his own scrolls and wands? Those things are pathetically light even by strength 8. No I was mostly talking about all the otherwise useless over-heavy loot.

No, my point there wasn’t the weight of such light items, but the ability to access them quickly in combat (as a move action), which, e.g., the Handy Haversack provides.

If a group just rules that “anything in your inventory can be accessed as a move action regardless” then this is obviously less of an issue, but this general understanding tends to exist, in my experience, because of the prevalence of items like the Handy Haversack.

[noob]

No, my point there wasn’t the weight of such light items, but the ability to access them quickly in combat (as a move action), which, e.g., the Handy Haversack provides.

If a group just rules that “anything in your inventory can be accessed as a move action regardless” then this is obviously less of an issue, but this general understanding tends to exist, in my experience, because of the prevalence of items like the Handy Haversack.

Wait you mean you are not using scrolls as warforged components for easy use?(you need umd for that but it is doable)

[RoboEmperor]

Wait you mean you are not using scrolls as warforged components for easy use?(you need umd for that but it is doable)

And pay twice as much as a normal scroll? Hell no.

[ryu]

Further still wands are best used by the familiar with UMD anyway, neither of the two are ideal when spontaneous divination + versatile spellcaster is more efficient for fast spells cheaply, and even discounting all that it would still be a minor concern at best because of the simple fact that most wand use not for familiar shenans is utility spells you don't want to bother prepping if your versatile spellcaster RAW is vetoed which tends to not be combat.

[Deophaun]

No, my point there wasn’t the weight of such light items, but the ability to access them quickly in combat (as a move action), which, e.g., the Handy Haversack provides.
A handy haversack costs 2,000 gp. For the same price, you can put wand chambers in 20 arrows and draw your wands as a free action.

[tiercel]

A handy haversack costs 2,000 gp. For the same price, you can put wand chambers in 20 arrows and draw your wands as a free action.

If we are going to play RAW shenanigans, then a DM could cite Dungeonscape p.33:

“As a rule of thumb, weapons cannot have modifications unless they have a solid hilt or handle that is at least 6 inches in length.”

Since an arrow does not have a “solid hilt or handle” of this length, and wand chambers are weapon modifications...

That’s assuming that the DM doesn’t just call shenanigans on ammunition anyway (otherwise +1 <ammo> of Warning gives you +5 initiative for ~400gp?).

[Deophaun]

Since an arrow does not have a “solid hilt or handle” of this length, and wand chambers are weapon modifications...
It does, though. You can use them as improvised melee weapons, dealing damage as a dagger. The shaft is the handle and it is solid, unlike what you would find on a chain.

That’s assuming that the DM doesn’t just call shenanigans on ammunition anyway (otherwise +1 <ammo> of Warning gives you +5 initiative for ~400gp?).
Weak. You use them for cheap blindsight, cheap attack re-rolls, cheap boulder removers, etc. etc. But that's a whole other discussion.

Also, bandoleers are a thing, and the default rule in the PHB for retrieving an item is a move action (so we can rephrase your flippant remark as "if your group just uses the rules"). It only takes longer if you have to rummage through a pack for it (and the only reason to use a backpack is if you want to carry 2lbs of useless weight), which is not something you do with a bandoleer.

[Goaty14]

That’s assuming that the DM doesn’t just call shenanigans on ammunition anyway (otherwise +1 <ammo> of Warning gives you +5 initiative for ~400gp?).

Agreed, you're not abusing it enough. Weak. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=10419.0)