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Tyrael
2007-09-17, 03:15 PM
At 1st level, the Shadowbane Inquisitor(Comp Adv.) gains an ability called Absolute Conviction(Ex). I don't think I can quote it verbatim due to legality, but it essentially says that if the Shadowbane Inquisitor ever changes from LG, he cannot advance in that prestige class any further, but does not lose any class abilities that have already been attained.

My question is, how does this affect the Paladin's code? If the Shadowbane Inquisitor strays from LG, is his Paladinhood affected? My friend, who's a SI, maintains that sinc ehe's so self-righteous and he thinks that his cause is just, he can basically do anything he wants because of this ability. He also frequently cites the book's flavor text, which gives an example of a SI burning down an innocent village to kill a demon. IMHO, that's incredibly, ridiculously Evil. Would his Absolute Conviction prevent him from this?

Is Absolute Conviction a be-all end-all alignment shield?

Jasdoif
2007-09-17, 03:20 PM
I'll just say it again:
A116

Unless the class or its abilities state how they interact with the Paladin's code, they don't affect the Paladin's code. Since you didn't mention anything of the sort, and since I can't doublecheck right now, I'm guessing there is no such connection. So a Paladin would still fall if his/her alignment changed to something other then LG, and would still lose Paladin class features in that case.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-09-17, 03:35 PM
Reference:


Ex-Paladins

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, ... loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladinís mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin.

Townopolis
2007-09-17, 03:36 PM
If someone burned down an innocent village to kill a single demon I believe they would:

1)Keep all their SI abilities.
2)Lose all their paladin abilities.
3)Be hunted down by a cadre of hound archons.

Captain van der Decken
2007-09-17, 03:39 PM
I can't really see why the Inquisitor would do that, anyway. Burning down the village is hardly going to kill a demon, and Inquisitors are usually the type to simply stab the dang thing.

goat
2007-09-17, 03:53 PM
The book STATES that they have to remain Lawful Good to keep their paladin abilities. Right there in the class.

Hit him with the book. In the face.

Edit - It's right above the class-progression block! Almost impossible to miss!

Citizen Joe
2007-09-17, 03:54 PM
I'm going to guess at what the question is...

The problem seems to be that if the SI ceases to be LG he cannot progress further, but doesn't lose abilities. However, Absolute Conviction seems to make all acts lawful good. The paladin then wants to use that ability to protect his paladin powers.

This sounds a lot like the developers saw all the heated debates over paladin and alignment and came up with a game mechanic solution that basically says, "Screw you guys! This is my character and what I'm doing is lawful good because I say it is." So, as far as alignment changing from actions goes, he's not going to fall. However, if his alignment changes for some other reason (Helm of Opposite Alignment) then he'll lose progression in SI. The question then becomes does he then fall as a paladin. It does state specifically that becoming non-LG (regardless of acts done as so) revokes paladin abilities. He can atone though.

So, yea, he can apparently commit any attrocities he wants and hide behind his Absolute Conviction without sliding on the alignment scale. But if he becomes magically changed, he's screwed.

Logic
2007-09-17, 04:09 PM
At 1st level, the Shadowbane Inquisitor(Comp Adv.) gains an ability called Absolute Conviction(Ex). I don't think I can quote it verbatim due to legality, but it essentially says that if the Shadowbane Inquisitor ever changes from LG, he cannot advance in that prestige class any further, but does not lose any class abilities that have already been attained.

My question is, how does this affect the Paladin's code? If the Shadowbane Inquisitor strays from LG, is his Paladinhood affected? My friend, who's a SI, maintains that sinc ehe's so self-righteous and he thinks that his cause is just, he can basically do anything he wants because of this ability. He also frequently cites the book's flavor text, which gives an example of a SI burning down an innocent village to kill a demon. IMHO, that's incredibly, ridiculously Evil. Would his Absolute Conviction prevent him from this?

Is Absolute Conviction a be-all end-all alignment shield?
A) It states that he will not lose class abilities due to alignment shift from LG. But A sane DM will interperet this as will not lose Shadowbane Inquisitor class abilities, not "Any and all" as the player seems to be taking it.

A) It changes nothing about the Paladin's code. He still has to follow the code of condust to retain his paladin abilities.

A) Of course. A paladin ceases to be a paladin when he strays from LG.

A) Prevent him from doing this? No. Having no negative consequnces for his actions? Certainly not in any game I was running.

A) I don't have the book in front of me, but from your paraphrasing, it seems that he does not lose class abilities. That's it. It says nothing about being able to maintain one's alignment in site of actions contrary to that alignment.

I hope this helps to answer your questions.

Tobrian
2007-09-17, 04:24 PM
At 1st level, the Shadowbane Inquisitor(Comp Adv.) gains an ability called Absolute Conviction(Ex). I don't think I can quote it verbatim due to legality,

You can quote outtakes of something if you're discussing it, reviewing it, parodying it.


but it essentially says that if the Shadowbane Inquisitor ever changes from LG, he cannot advance in that prestige class any further, but does not lose any class abilities that have already been attained.

My question is, how does this affect the Paladin's code? If the Shadowbane Inquisitor strays from LG, is his Paladinhood affected? My friend, who's a SI, maintains that sinc ehe's so self-righteous and he thinks that his cause is just, he can basically do anything he wants because of this ability. He also frequently cites the book's flavor text, which gives an example of a SI burning down an innocent village to kill a demon. IMHO, that's incredibly, ridiculously Evil. Would his Absolute Conviction prevent him from this?

*GROAN*
It's the damn Gray Guard from Complete Scoundrel all over again, who goes around torturing heretics and people of chaotic alignment despite being a paladin PrC, and the flavour text justifies it by saying the Gray Guard follows orders from his superiors and it's all for the greater good and how he does the things that need to be done but the silly wussy paladin cannot do, blablabla.

Seriously, perhaps those two PrCs were written by the same idiot writer?? The Gray Guard also had a class ability that, while he still had a to adhere to the paladin code technically, basically allowed him to wave away any ethical problems with the pretext that as long as he followed his orders, anything he did in the pursuit of those orders was "legal". Oh and if the Gray Guard fell, it was a lot easier for him to atone.


Is Absolute Conviction a be-all end-all alignment shield?

It shouldn't be. In fact, in my book, it would be a sign of Lawful Evil.

The Inquisition was "absolutely convinced" that they were doing the right thing, too...

Douglas
2007-09-17, 04:26 PM
It's an issue of interpretation. It is technically possible to interpret the exact wording of the ability as applying to all class abilities of every class, but it's a bit of a stretch. It seems pretty obvious to me in both the context and wording of the ability that it's supposed to apply only to Shadowbane Inquisitor abilities, and I think most DMs would go with that ruling.

goat
2007-09-17, 04:54 PM
It says, right above the class progression block in the Shadowbane Inquisitor class that: "He must still remain lawful good in order to retain his paladin abilities and take paladin levels".

I completely fail to see how the question can even arise under RAW.

horseboy
2007-09-17, 05:00 PM
He also frequently cites the book's flavor text, which gives an example of a SI burning down an innocent village to kill a demon. IMHO, that's incredibly, ridiculously Evil.

When did Dan Abnett start writing for WotC?

LongVin
2007-09-17, 05:21 PM
You can quote outtakes of something if you're discussing it, reviewing it, parodying it.



*GROAN*
It's the damn Gray Guard from Complete Scoundrel all over again, who goes around torturing heretics and people of chaotic alignment despite being a paladin PrC, and the flavour text justifies it by saying the Gray Guard follows orders from his superiors and it's all for the greater good and how he does the things that need to be done but the silly wussy paladin cannot do, blablabla.

Seriously, perhaps those two PrCs were written by the same idiot writer?? The Gray Guard also had a class ability that, while he still had a to adhere to the paladin code technically, basically allowed him to wave away any ethical problems with the pretext that as long as he followed his orders, anything he did in the pursuit of those orders was "legal". Oh and if the Gray Guard fell, it was a lot easier for him to atone.



It shouldn't be. In fact, in my book, it would be a sign of Lawful Evil.

The Inquisition was "absolutely convinced" that they were doing the right thing, too...


If only Igor (http://archive.gamespy.com/comics/dorktower/archive.asp?nextform=viewcomic&id=623) was a member of this class, he would of been spared that massive chunk of exp loss.

But I am so totally playing one of these classes just to drive a DM nuts "Yeah, I burn down the orphanage."
"YOU WHAT?!?"
"I burn down the orphanage."
"YOU'RE A PALADIN! YOU CANT!"
"No. Technically I am an Inquisition rooting out heresy and demons. I have suspicion to believe that one or more of the orphans may have a witch's mark on them, therefore erring in the side of caution I am burning down the whole orphanage. I have both the temporal and spiritual power granted by my order on my side."

Tyrael
2007-09-17, 05:25 PM
You can quote outtakes of something if you're discussing it, reviewing it, parodying it.

Awesome.

The quote in question:

"Absolute Conviction(Ex): Should a shadowbane inquisitor's alignment ever change from Lawful Good for any reason, he may not take additional levels in this prestige class, but he does not lose any class abilities from levels already attained."

The second quote in question:

"The Order of Illumination expounds that it is better to sacrifice a village that hides a powerful demon than it is to risk letting the demon escape or the evil spread."

Mewtarthio
2007-09-17, 05:30 PM
It sounds like a Shadowbane Inquisitor could be so consumed in his quest to destroy evil that he becomes the very thing he hates. In that case, he keeps his SI class abilities, but cannot advance at all and becomes a sort of dangerous loose cannon. Nothing you've quoted implies that the SI is immune to alignment shifts--just the opposite, in fact: It states that it is quite possible for an Inquisitor to fall, and then expounds on what happens in that case.

Renrik
2007-09-17, 05:44 PM
People need to understand that the Lawful Good alignment doesn;t give you permission to go around killing all things evil and being a sanctimonious prick. In fact, quite the opposite. It demands that you must be willing to make sacrifices and undergo personal hardships for the good of others while adhering to a strict code of personal ethics and a moral code.

I hate it when people want to play a "grim, world-weary paladin" or a "fanatical devotee of good" and expect to keep their powers. It's all very simple: If you break the code, and commit evil acts, you lose your paladin powers until you atone.

I myself have played a fanatical devotee of a good god who became so obsessed with cleansing that he became evil. That's a classical staple of fantasy. But he fell out of his god's grace, as he should have. I didn;t argue with the DM. I expected it to happen. In fact, we had discussed the possibility of it before hand. What did my character do? He took levels in blackguard, convinced that he was still following his god's path and that the current preisthood was too weak and blind to obey the lord's commands. He became LE. (I've also played a good paladin. Not as fun to roleplay, because he adhered to the whole "strict code of personal ethics" thing, but it was the only paladin ever played in my group that didn't earn the hatred of every other player.)

All that said, I use the Shadowbane Inquisitors in my campain. Of course, ym campain replaces alignment with taint and the Church of the Light is exclusively devoted towards destroying taint and purifying things (hence, the Shadowbanes commit evil acts. Evil, however, is not anything more than a philisophical concept, and so evil Shadowbanes etain shadowbane powers- unless they are paladins, who do have to adhere to the morals and ethics requied in any other campain. Also, if their evil acts become so depraved they earn taint from them, they get hunted down by former comrades. Because of the risk of falling into temtation and taint, most Shadowbane inquisitors therefor avoid immoral acts at all costs, like paladins.)

Mewtarthio
2007-09-17, 06:28 PM
I hate it when people want to play a "grim, world-weary paladin" or a "fanatical devotee of good" and expect to keep their powers. It's all very simple: If you break the code, and commit evil acts, you lose your paladin powers until you atone.

Okay, fanatical I understand, but what's wrong with grim and world-weary? I'd understand your reasoning if you said something about Paladins falling if they become cynical (I'd disagree, but I'd still see where you're coming from), but you seem to be implying that the LG alignment itself prohibits its followers from such a mindset.

Renrik
2007-09-17, 06:35 PM
It's the ones playing grim, world-weary oes who take levels in Gray Guard.

Ditto
2007-09-17, 06:42 PM
I suppose it's time for the obligatory Sir Cedric (http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=113405) reference? Do folks hold with the idea of a paladin who drinks heavily (but not to excess), sleeps with prostitutes (but always pays in full and cures their icky diseases) and is quite resigned to the fact that paladins die young in the name of all that is Right and Good?

I rather like him. :smallsmile:

SurlySeraph
2007-09-17, 06:52 PM
*GROAN*
It's the damn Gray Guard from Complete Scoundrel all over again, who goes around torturing heretics and people of chaotic alignment despite being a paladin PrC, and the flavour text justifies it by saying the Gray Guard follows orders from his superiors and it's all for the greater good and how he does the things that need to be done but the silly wussy paladin cannot do, blablabla.

Seriously, perhaps those two PrCs were written by the same idiot writer?? The Gray Guard also had a class ability that, while he still had a to adhere to the paladin code technically, basically allowed him to wave away any ethical problems with the pretext that as long as he followed his orders, anything he did in the pursuit of those orders was "legal". Oh and if the Gray Guard fell, it was a lot easier for him to atone.

Hey, I play Gray Guards. And if the DM doesn't make you fall for doing excessively evil actions, he's not interpreting it right. Gray Guards and Shadowbane Inquisitors should fall under exactly the same circumstances as any other paladin. The point of their abilities is that they aren't completely screwed if they DO fall, so they can atone and get right back to being good after doing something evil or chaotic but necessary.


It sounds like a Shadowbane Inquisitor could be so consumed in his quest to destroy evil that he becomes the very thing he hates. In that case, he keeps his SI class abilities, but cannot advance at all and becomes a sort of dangerous loose cannon. Nothing you've quoted implies that the SI is immune to alignment shifts--just the opposite, in fact: It states that it is quite possible for an Inquisitor to fall, and then expounds on what happens in that case.

Yep. That's partly the point of the class, that you can drift into evil while thinking you're doing good.


If only Igor (http://archive.gamespy.com/comics/dorktower/archive.asp?nextform=viewcomic&id=623) was a member of this class, he would of been spared that massive chunk of exp loss.

But I am so totally playing one of these classes just to drive a DM nuts "Yeah, I burn down the orphanage."
"YOU WHAT?!?"
"I burn down the orphanage."
"YOU'RE A PALADIN! YOU CANT!"
"No. Technically I am an Inquisition rooting out heresy and demons. I have suspicion to believe that one or more of the orphans may have a witch's mark on them, therefore erring in the side of caution I am burning down the whole orphanage. I have both the temporal and spiritual power granted by my order on my side."

If your DM knows what he's doing, he'll make you fall even though your actions may have been for the greater good. If it turns out that the orphanage was, in fact, full of witches, then good came of your evil act. If not, it was just pure evil. Burning down an orphanage should make you fall for doing short-term evil even if it does good in the long term.


I hate it when people want to play a "grim, world-weary paladin" or a "fanatical devotee of good" and expect to keep their powers. It's all very simple: If you break the code, and commit evil acts, you lose your paladin powers until you atone.

I've played several Gray Guards who were like that, and you're right. The point of the Gray Guard and Shadowbane Inquisitor is that they can do evil for the greater good - but when they do evil, it's still evil. You fall for doing something evil, but it's worth falling for. That's why the GG gets Atonement without XP loss and the SI gets to retain some of his abilities if he falls: the point of the classes is that they can keep fighting for good even after falling, because the actions that made them fall will do good in the long run. The fact that they aren't as screwed as normal paladins if they fall does NOT mean that they shouldn't fall after doing things that would make any paladin fall. Doing evil for the greater good doesn't mean what you did wasn't evil, it just means that it's evil that you're going to be able to make up for.

Lord Tataraus
2007-09-17, 07:49 PM
*snip*

Hear, hear! preach it brother! I hate it when people bring up the "Grey Guard allows a paladin to do whatever he wants" garbage.

puppyavenger
2007-09-17, 08:11 PM
Could we PLEASE not have another page palidan prc thread that gets locked after 40 pages?