Powering combat abilities by expending iterative attacks.

[BassoonHero]

Suppose that (say) Stunning Fist had no usage limit, but instead, it "used up" two attacks.

Is this sort of mechanic used anywhere in 3.5? It seems like it might be a good way to implement "value-added" combat options without adding a separate resource like ki points and without increasing the number of dice rolled.

[liquidformat]

There are a few but they tend to be far and between, whirlwind and the fight acfs from PHBII are the main one that jump to mind and they all require a single attack in place of full attack.

[Kayblis]

There are few, if any, abilities like that. Usually the abilities in that vein use a Standard action to not allow a full attack, like Manyshot and Decisive Strike.

The underlying problem is that abilities have different uses per day(Stunning Fist is effectively uncapped for monks, and terrible for everyone else), so trading an attack is usually not worth it for any character that is centered around a specific ability. Either an ability is unlimited, or it's limited for a reason. Your homebrew makes them 1/turn.

[Particle_Man]

I think the Monk variant in PHB II does that, but as a "create your character this way" thing, not a "round by round" thing. So tons of damage in one attack rather than multiple attacks. So the trade in of interative attacks would happen at chargen.

[Thurbane]

Doesn't Stormguard Warrior (ToB) give some bonuses if you forego extra attacks?

[Kayblis]

Doesn't Stormguard Warrior (ToB) give some bonuses if you forego extra attacks?

Stormguard Warrior lets you make attacks as touch attacks that deal no damage, but add +5 to any melee damage the following round. It's a decent use of your 3rd and 4th iterative, but the real gold in this tactical feat was combining it with AoO generators like Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike, because every AoO you choose to not make nets you +4 to hit and damage, so even your last iteratives would have a good chance to hit and every hit would deal a lot of damage.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The Targeteer fighter can trade an iterative for +1 threat range. That's about the only ability I know of that gives up an actual iterative, instead of using it for something else (e.g. Stormguard Warrior) or replacing a full attack entirely (Decisive Strike).

In the Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde adventure, there's a PrC that gets abilities based around "resonance", which is built by hitting a target multiple times (spoiler: it's not all that powerful). Three Mountains Style lets you nauseate targets by hitting them twice. Rend, of course, works this way as well. Stunning Fist could be a similar rider applied when you hit a target multiple times.

[mabriss lethe]

But for adding the actual mechanic, I think comes close to violating Grod's Law.


You cannot and should not balance bad mechanics by making them annoying to use.

Adding a fiddly subsystem for more tactical use of combat abilities is a waste of both a player's and a GM's time at the table. Using Stunning Fist as an example, If you want more uses of stunning fist, make it at-will, 1/turn limit (limit breakable with feats/level) It really won't break anything to include stunning as effectively another special attack like Trip or Bullrush. It also makes the really horrible feats that build off of it a bit more worth the look, since you can apply otherwise mediocre riders as often as you please.

[JNAProductions]

But for adding the actual mechanic, I think comes close to violating Grod's Law.

Adding a fiddly subsystem for more tactical use of combat abilities is a waste of both a player's and a GM's time at the table. Using Stunning Fist as an example, If you want more uses of stunning fist, make it at-will, 1/turn limit (limit breakable with feats/level) It really won't break anything to include stunning as effectively another special attack like Trip or Bullrush. It also makes the really horrible feats that build off of it a bit more worth the look, since you can apply otherwise mediocre riders as often as you please.

I don't really think so. You just say "Okay, I usually have three attacks, at +24/19/14. Since I'm using Stunning Strike, I lose my second one, so I get two at +24/14."

Not too difficult.

[mabriss lethe]

I don't really think so. You just say "Okay, I usually have three attacks, at +24/19/14. Since I'm using Stunning Strike, I lose my second one, so I get two at +24/14."

Not too difficult.

It's not difficult, but it is fiddly and annoying, and even in the hands of someone fluent with it, can work to bog down an encounter.

[JNAProductions]

It's not difficult, but it is fiddly and annoying, and even in the hands of someone fluent with it, can work to bog down an encounter.

I guess it could, but you can say the same thing about spells. Choosing which type of spell is best, making sure you have it prepared, debating about whether or not its worth using...

Yes, it adds some degree of fiddliness, but I think the pay-off in terms of more interesting options is well worth it.

[mabriss lethe]

I guess it could, but you can say the same thing about spells. Choosing which type of spell is best, making sure you have it prepared, debating about whether or not its worth using...

Yes, it adds some degree of fiddliness, but I think the pay-off in terms of more interesting options is well worth it.
You're correct. Spells are much the same way, except for one key difference. I don't have to modify the game to add in the rules for them. I may not like how they're executed but the mechanics are already worked out. If I want to run the game, I can deal with annoyances already present in the system, but it doesn't mean I should add more of them.

[JNAProductions]

You're correct. Spells are much the same way, except for one key difference. I don't have to modify the game to add in the rules for them. I may not like how they're executed but the mechanics are already worked out. If I want to run the game, I can deal with annoyances already present in the system, but it doesn't mean I should add more of them.

That's basically just an appeal to authority. And the authority is 3rd edition era Wizards of the Coast.

...

I'm not impressed. :P

[Goaty14]

You're correct. Spells are much the same way, except for one key difference. I don't have to modify the game to add in the rules for them. I may not like how they're executed but the mechanics are already worked out. If I want to run the game, I can deal with annoyances already present in the system, but it doesn't mean I should add more of them.

Except everything that isn't in the core rules also operates under this assumption?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I think C.Champion had a Fighter alternate class feature (cost a bonus feat) to give up an iterative attack in order to use it later on to parry an enemy attack. Nifty idea, but the ability was just terrible, sadly.