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Whit
2018-10-12, 11:23 AM
Should I go Evocation or war magic let’s see the difference.
Evocation school
Lvl 2 Evocation spells cost less to transcribe
Lvl 2 protect 1+ lvl of spell friends from your spells ae auto save and no damage if you would take 1/2 on a failed save.
War Magic School
Lvl 2 (arcane deflection) when hit by an attack or fail a save use reaction to give either +2 AC or +4 saves. You can only cast cantrips until end of next turn when used.
Lvl 2 add intelligence modifier to initiative
Evocation school
Compared
At lvl 2 evocation gets a free simple version of a sorcerer careful metamagic. Higher the spell, more protected. Very powerful but the transcribe cost die less us just mediocre. Now compared to war magic who gets a reaction to get better AC or Saves at the cost of casting only a cantrips and adding Intelligence modifier to intiative is HUGE!! Winner hands down War Magic
Evocation school
Lvl 6 your cantrips do 1/2 damage on a save
War magic school
Lvl 6 complicated but basically you get to add 1/2 your lvl to a damage attack once per turn but most likely y oh can do this 1 or 2 times per short rest.
Compared
Neither school has anything great at lvl 6. Evocation can do 1/2 damage on save cantrips or war magic adds 1/2 lvl once or more per short rest on a spell. compared to war magic adding at lvl 6 +3 damage on one attack or +10 damage at lvl 20 in one attack. (Not so good)
winner is Evocation because it’s constant compared to war magic once per short rest up to 2-4 per short rest but to get that is hard and damage is limited.
Evocation school
Lvl 10 add intelligent modifier to evocation damage
War magic school
Lvl 10 add +2 AC and +2 Saving throws when concentrating on a spell
Compared. Both schools get good abilities. Evocation at this lvl adds +3 to +5 damage per evocation hit and war magic gets AC and save bonus when concentrating. Both are equal as the preference is either damage or defense.
Evocation School
Lvl 14 1/long rest max damage on lvl 5 or lower spell. You can cast again but take damage
War magic school
Lvl 14 when you use your level 2 arcane deflection target up to 3 creatures of your choice within 60 ft and do force damage equal to 1/2 your level.
Compared
Evocation wins slightly Just because the burst potential. Although saves can still reduce the max damage by 1/2 and resistance can come into play. There are ways to get around it. Element mastery feat, Magic missile force damage.
War magic will use more often depending on arcane deflection and causing 7-10 damage lvl 14-20 to 3 targets is pretty good but only if you are hit by an attack or save is a bad thing you want to avoid.

So overall lvl 2 abilities for war magic is better all the way to lvl 20. It’s lvl 6 and lv 14 are lesss so compared to the evocation use of careful meta for free fireball 4 people protected. Meteor swarm 10 people protected etc etc. plus Intelligence mod to all evocation damage and 1/2 damage to all cantrips even on saves.
Evocation edges out at high lvls but war magic wins if you dip 2 lvls.

That’s just my view. What’s yours? Maybe I’m missing something.

Kadesh
2018-10-12, 11:30 AM
What do you want to do? Blow stuff up, or maintain Concentration? Two different things, that often have little to no meshing (Evokers have plenty of non Conc effects to fulfil their role)

Man_Over_Game
2018-10-12, 11:34 AM
Evocation is a lot better with a strong front line. Those shaped evocation spells really put in work.

Alternatively, War Mage is better when you have a weaker front line, as you'll be more likely to utilize those concentration checks and deflection effects that are so good.

War Mage also does well as a multiclass, but Wizard as a whole is a class you don't want to multiclass with very much, as it uses the most common dump stat (Intelligence), so it's kind of a moot point. If an Eldritch Knight wants to multiclass for War Mage, he can probably just grab the War Caster feat for almost the same benefits.

If an Arcane Trickster want to grab War Mage...I dunno, I'm not sure where that'd be relevant, because going further into Rogue will probably give more defensive bonuses than multiclassing into Wizard. Maybe if the team needs more emphasis on Arcane magic while not being able to hold a front line well enough to justify other options that synergize more (like Illusion/Enchantment wizard).

MaxWilson
2018-10-12, 12:01 PM
War Mage also does well as a multiclass, but Wizard as a whole is a class you don't want to multiclass with very much, as it uses the most common dump stat (Intelligence), so it's kind of a moot point. If an Eldritch Knight wants to multiclass for War Mage, he can probably just grab the War Caster feat for almost the same benefits.

There's actually not that much similarity between the benefits of War Caster vs. War Mage.

Benefits of EK + War Caster: easier to maintain concentration, better opportunity attacks w/ Booming Blade, can choose on the fly between Shield/Absorb Elements and opportunity attacks instead of having to pre-sheathe your weapon for Shield/Absorb Elements.

Benefits of EK + War Mage 2: pick up Find Familiar for advantage, Expeditious Retreat for mobility/kiting, Disguise Self for espionage, maybe Longstrider for even more mobility or Tasha's for some nice control (goes well with EK's Arcane Strike), Arcane Deflection for when you want to conserve Shield spells or pass a saving throw (+4 is pretty massive). Boosts to concentration saves are nice, but boosts to resist paralyzation, possession, domination, etc. are HUGE, especially since you can decide after the roll is made, so it's considerable better than advantage.

Man_Over_Game
2018-10-12, 12:13 PM
There's actually not that much similarity between the benefits of War Caster vs. War Mage.

Benefits of EK + War Caster: easier to maintain concentration, better opportunity attacks w/ Booming Blade, can choose on the fly between Shield/Absorb Elements and opportunity attacks instead of having to pre-sheathe your weapon for Shield/Absorb Elements.

Benefits of EK + War Mage 2: pick up Find Familiar for advantage, Expeditious Retreat for mobility/kiting, Disguise Self for espionage, maybe Longstrider for even more mobility or Tasha's for some nice control (goes well with EK's Arcane Strike), Arcane Deflection for when you want to conserve Shield spells or pass a saving throw (+4 is pretty massive). Boosts to concentration saves are nice, but boosts to resist paralyzation, possession, domination, etc. are HUGE, especially since you can decide after the roll is made, so it's considerable better than advantage.

I guess I mean to say that the overall goal you'd be looking to do by going War Mage can usually be done by picking War Caster.

War Caster effectively makes your spells more versatile, more efficient, and more available while in melee combat, and the two additional levels in Eldritch Knight may provide features or spell casting to improve those abilities even further.

War Mage provides a lot of versatility when it comes to spells, but it's more focused on avoiding melee combat than the two levels of Eldritch Knight would do. I guess I'm a big fan of not multiclassing unless you absolutely need to.

Ritual Caster and Magic Initiate are both things the extra two levels into Fighter can provide for you to get things like Find Familiar and increase spellcasting, while still getting you further into the Eldritch Knight and higher hit-die.

NaughtyTiger
2018-10-12, 01:11 PM
As a DM, I hate evocation. It takes away the risks of fireballing into a crowd. My monsters can't use PCs and NPCs as shields.

Sigreid
2018-10-12, 01:15 PM
As a DM, I hate evocation. It takes away the risks of fireballing into a crowd. My monsters can't use PCs and NPCs as shields.

Yep, that's why the party loves my evoker. Mooks are almost completely a non issue for at least 2 fights per day.

tieren
2018-10-12, 01:36 PM
As a DM, I hate evocation. It takes away the risks of fireballing into a crowd. My monsters can't use PCs and NPCs as shields.

"1+level of spell"

Maybe we have different definitions of a "crowd".

Sigreid
2018-10-12, 01:52 PM
"1+level of spell"

Maybe we have different definitions of a "crowd".

If I don't hit my party, it's all good.

ImproperJustice
2018-10-12, 02:02 PM
War Wizard has grown popular in pur group for the following reasons:

Arcane Deflection: +2 AC is...ok, but +4 to saves is the difference between “Man that fight was awesome” vs. “I spent that whole fight on a stupid demi-plane”.

Tactical Wit: Going first for a Wizard is the difference between getting your awesome spell off and dictating the pace of the fight vs. watching as everyone gets into a scrum and now you can only safely lob cantrips.
(Admittedly Evokers do have a way around this too.)

Not having a school theme makes this a better “universal” mage. I think that’s mostly mental, but some find that appealing.

The passive concentration buff is nice.

Power Surge is just, a waste. But at least it is a ribbon that does some minor damage here or there.

For what it’s worth though. If you like Blasting an Evoker is a great way to go. Besides playing a Sorceror that is. Mmmmm, Empowered Heightened Twin Immolations......

ATHATH
2018-10-12, 02:17 PM
How is your DM ruling the Evoker's level 10 ability's interaction with Magic Missile? It's one damage roll, so it applies to all missiles (apparently), although you MIGHT have to not have all of the missiles target the same target (although you COULD make all but one of the missiles hit one guy and still use only one roll). It's, uh, kind of unclear.

BoxANT
2018-10-13, 03:53 PM
Alert feat + Tactical Wit is ... pretty nice

MaxWilson
2018-10-14, 02:50 PM
For what it’s worth though. If you like Blasting an Evoker is a great way to go. Besides playing a Sorceror that is. Mmmmm, Empowered Heightened Twin Immolations......

Except for Empower, it's illegal to use multiple metamagics on the same spell. You can't Heighten and Twin simultaneously.

Unless your DM decides otherwise, of course.

ImproperJustice
2018-10-15, 12:50 AM
Except for Empower, it's illegal to use multiple metamagics on the same spell. You can't Heighten and Twin simultaneously.

Unless your DM decides otherwise, of course.

Hey! You’re right!
I missed that. Good catch.