Replacing the villain in Kingmaker (spoilers for the AP)

[Minion #6]

First of all, in the off chance that any of you are reading - Sam, Cam, Becky and the rest, nick off. Also, anyone playing the Kingmaker game (or the AP itself for that matter) might do best to avoid this.

Alright, so the villain of Book 6 of Kingmaker just... doesn't grip me. She's not integrated very well in the rest of the plot, and even if I integrate her I don't think that would be a fitting end to everything. So, I'm tinkering with a replacement. Bear in mind, this will be a high-fantasy, high-power game (that's what the players like), so judge it on those grounds. Please feel free to criticise, suggest, expand or correct!

The Last Prince of Kadath

They walk unseen and foul in lonely places where the Words have been spoken and the Rites howled through at their Seasons. The wind gibbers with Their voices, and the earth mutters with Their consciousness. They bend the forest and crush the city, yet may not forest or city behold the hand that smites. Kadath in the cold waste hath known Them, and what man knows Kadath?
Only one outside entity, the god known once as Dou-Bral, has ever been to Kadath and returned, and he returned as Zon-Kuthon, the god of pain. Kadath lies beyond the Plateau of Leng, an area in the First World that even the enigmatic Eldest avoid. The Plateau of Leng is old, older even than the First World, from the multiverse before the current one. To the monstrous and frightening denizens of Leng, and even to their ruler, the High Priest Not To Be Described, the city of Kadath is one to be spoken of only in whispers. Kadath is, was, and will be dead... unless it can be brought into the new universe, parasitising the Material Plane. And one being, the Last Prince of Kadath, has survived - with the assistance of Zon-Kuthon - to do just that.

The minor deity that crops up in Kingmaker? All references of that will be changed to Zon-Kuthon. A lot of the fey elements will be kept, although they will be thematically altered to be more shadowy, corrupt and eldritch. The penultimate villain, Castruccio Irovetti, is tormented in his nightmares by whispers that drive him to try to claim the Stolen Lands, whispers of the Last Prince himself. One of Irovetti's trusted generals is actually a devoted Kuthonite and servant of the Last Prince, who is all to eager to assist the petty tyrant in this goal, hoping to annex Pitax and the Stolen Lands as the location of the reborn Kadath, for his god and for his master both.

The Last Prince himself is nightmares given flesh, served by his faithful Hounds of Tindalos. He is currently trapped in the First World, unable to enter the Material Plane, but can access peoples dreams to influence them - or even enslave them. To him, humanity are nothing more than ants, insects that are in the way of alleviating the crushing grief and loneliness he feels as the only extant member of his world in the multiverse. He has lost so much, but he will have it all back. Kadath will live. Kadath must live.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Minion #6
Only one outside entity, the god known once as Dou-Bral, has ever been to Kadath and returned, and he returned as Zon-Kuthon, the god of pain. Kadath lies beyond the Plateau of Leng, an area in the First World that even the enigmatic Eldest avoid.

Is this part of Pathfinder canon, or is this your own imagining? It certainly looks promising, especially if you’ve been working with a Lovecraft theme in the AP so far.


Originally Posted by Minion #6
He is currently trapped in the First World, unable to enter the Material Plane, but can access peoples dreams to influence them - or even enslave them.

How are you planning to implement this mechanically?

[Minion #6]

Is this part of Pathfinder canon, or is this your own imagining? It certainly looks promising, especially if you’ve been working with a Lovecraft theme in the AP so far.

It's a combination of the two - Leng is canon in general, although it has no specific location. I've specified the First World as it fits well with both the AP and existing lore.


How are you planning to implement this mechanically?

Slightly tweaked version of the Nightmare template ought to do the job.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Minion #6
Slightly tweaked version of the Nightmare template ought to do the job.

Is this the Nightmare Creature from Bestiary 4? How exactly are you tweaking it?

I'm curious because I'd like to do something similar in my own campaign, just interested in your approach.


Originally Posted by Minion #6
To him, humanity are nothing more than ants, insects that are in the way of alleviating the crushing grief and loneliness he feels as the only extant member of his world in the multiverse.

I meant to comment on this earlier, which is the only passage that seems a little out of place. Cosmic grief in some form I can understand, but loneliness doesn’t seem appropriate for an entity like this. To me, loneliness is a deeply human emotion, and if this creature experiences loneliness that would tend to humanize it, which feels fundamentally contrary to the essence of the thing.

[Minion #6]

Is this the Nightmare Creature from Bestiary 4? How exactly are you tweaking it?

I'm curious because I'd like to do something similar in my own campaign, just interested in your approach.

Knock off Shadow Walk and the Plane Shift abilities of the Nightmare Lord section (as he'll have >11HD, and in the context of this game the Dimension of Dreams and the First World are the same) to prevent "why doesn't he just Planeshift/Shadow Walk to the Material?" issues. Up the regeneration to 10, maybe even more, depending on the DPR of your players. I'm using obfuscated class levels to represent the creature, with Spheres of Power serving as it's magic system. I'll be adding an ability to hit the players with a Curse of Blasted Vitality too. More generally, use minions to get possessions of - or better yet, locks of hair from - important NPCs and the PCs. A mix of those affected by the Dream Slave ability, people who worship the creature, and people who are terrified into doing it's bidding works well.


I meant to comment on this earlier, which is the only passage that seems a little out of place. Cosmic grief in some form I can understand, but loneliness doesn’t seem appropriate for an entity like this. To me, loneliness is a deeply human emotion, and if this creature experiences loneliness that would tend to humanize it, which feels fundamentally contrary to the essence of the thing.

Why would it not feel loneliness? It used to be surrounded by it's fellows, but now there's nothing. Nothing like it, on any plane, at any point in time. The only thing it could feel a slight kinship with is Zon-Kuthon, but that's only because of shared knowledge, not of similarity between the two. It's home is only quasi-real, a rotting fragment of a dead reality. Which, incidentally, is why it's plan is ultimately fruitless - if you sew a corpse's arm to a living man, that arm doesn't come back to life.

[Florian]

@Minion#6:

Do your players know their Golarion lore? If yes, the whole thing you're brewing up will get pretty much confusing how you're using some planes and ZK in ways that don't match the official lore (and the overlap with the Strange Aeon AP)

[Minion #6]

This'll be the first Golarion game they'll have played, and while I'd love to run Strange Aeons, a couple of the players would have trouble paying attention to a full cosmic horror scenario like that.

[Florian]

This'll be the first Golarion game they'll have played, and while I'd love to run Strange Aeons, a couple of the players would have trouble paying attention to a full cosmic horror scenario like that.

Ok, let's talk functions and functionality here. Kingmaker works as a rather open sandbox, hex crawl and kingdom building campaign, because of the disconnect between the happening(s) and the final "boss". The "Fairy Queen" episode proves a solid cap-stone and end-point for this campaign that should come rather unexpected but also reward having made solid choices along the way there. I mean, this AP is basically ideal for some classes, Bard, Cavalier, Druid, Ranger, Slayer and will reward going with the "flow", ex. Fav. Enemy: Fey and such. The final episode picks up on any specialization, equipment and such that a character has picked up and specialized in along the route, change it, you'll have to change the whole route to still be fitting.

[Minion #6]

Ok, let's talk functions and functionality here. Kingmaker works as a rather open sandbox, hex crawl and kingdom building campaign, because of the disconnect between the happening(s) and the final "boss". The "Fairy Queen" episode proves a solid cap-stone and end-point for this campaign that should come rather unexpected but also reward having made solid choices along the way there. I mean, this AP is basically ideal for some classes, Bard, Cavalier, Druid, Ranger, Slayer and will reward going with the "flow", ex. Fav. Enemy: Fey and such. The final episode picks up on any specialization, equipment and such that a character has picked up and specialized in along the route, change it, you'll have to change the whole route to still be fitting.

I am aware that I will have to change other elements throughout, and am prepared to do so. It's still quite a ways off before we start, so I'll be going through the books and noting what needs to be updated in order to fit the changes. Since we're using Spheres of Might/Spheres of Power, I'm not expecting to run into favoured enemy as an issue. Gear, as you rightly point out, will have to be changed, but I'm considering ABP anyway, plus maybe access to an NPC crafter for specific stuff later in the game.

[Florian]

I am aware that I will have to change other elements throughout, and am prepared to do so. It's still quite a ways off before we start, so I'll be going through the books and noting what needs to be updated in order to fit the changes. Since we're using Spheres of Might/Spheres of Power, I'm not expecting to run into favoured enemy as an issue. Gear, as you rightly point out, will have to be changed, but I'm considering ABP anyway, plus maybe access to an NPC crafter for specific stuff later in the game.

Can't comment on using SoM/SoP.

As a general tipp, don't use the sub-systems as presented in the AP, use the updated rules from Ultimate Campaign (Kingdoms and War) and Ultimate Wilderness (Exploration). Also check out Quests & Campaigns for the actual player options that tie into Mass Battle and Kingdom Building, as they do actually have some impact. generally speaking, it makes a massive impact if your players build their characters to also excel in the sub-systems, like having a dedicated general and someone who is able to fill the leadership roles effectively.

Ok, there're two things to look out for: The leisurely pace actually favors crafting and using scrolls and potions as a cheap go-to action and takes the sting out of normally hard encounters like the Lich or some of the extremely high CR random encounters that are possible. Yes, you should use random encounters, a lot, but you should also take the time to update the random encounter charts to reflect what is happening in your kingdom, like, when your players opt to build a Cathedral to a deity, start to include pilgrims and bandits that prey on those pilgrims, so on.

When it comes to money, WBL and ABP, you should actually check the interaction with the Kingdom Building rules. Certain building play into this, some of them....
- Provide a bonus to kingdom attributes, which in turn is important for your Kingdom rolls to generate BP.
- Raise the base value cap by a fixed amount. This will influence shopping.
- Provide magic item sales slots and the option to oder/let craft them.

Should you have smart players that understand that the kingdom is basically also sorta-kinda a character that should also be optimized, like a personal character, they will work out how the "Upgrade from"/"Discount to"/"Site Bonus" interaction is (ex: The Stag Fort gives a 50% discount on Castle, which gives a 50% on Noble Villa, while a Foundry will add straight BP to any resource generating hexes). So, basically, with the right choices (a Bank, Inn, Magic Shop in every settlement...) and knowing that you can exchange 1BP = 4K gp in both directions, the limit to wealth and therefore items is just time.

So, back to the earlier point. The whole "First World Invasion" that will happen later on basically has two effects: A party will start to outfit themselves to deal with Fey and such, prepping them to confront the Fairy Queen, at the same time it will keep their armies occupied, so they have to do it personally and not just kill the Dragon with archers (note: using the War rules, a dragon is no match for an army above a certain size and level). So if you change the basic setup from "First World Invasion" to "Dreamlands Invasion", this is going to be a bit problematic because so far, outsiders and aberrations have played no real role (compared to humanoids (giants) and fey) and the planar overlap would not deal with the existing exploration rules and aspects, because Dreamlands work different (see Occult Adventures and Planar Adventures).

Personally, I see no real gain in making those sweeping changes.

[Minion #6]

Can't comment on using SoM/SoP.

As a general tipp, don't use the sub-systems as presented in the AP, use the updated rules from Ultimate Campaign (Kingdoms and War) and Ultimate Wilderness (Exploration). Also check out Quests & Campaigns for the actual player options that tie into Mass Battle and Kingdom Building, as they do actually have some impact. generally speaking, it makes a massive impact if your players build their characters to also excel in the sub-systems, like having a dedicated general and someone who is able to fill the leadership roles effectively.

I've got a spreadsheet based on the UC Kingdom rules that I'll be using, but I haven't looked into the exploration rules as of yet.


Ok, there're two things to look out for: The leisurely pace actually favors crafting and using scrolls and potions as a cheap go-to action and takes the sting out of normally hard encounters like the Lich or some of the extremely high CR random encounters that are possible. Yes, you should use random encounters, a lot, but you should also take the time to update the random encounter charts to reflect what is happening in your kingdom, like, when your players opt to build a Cathedral to a deity, start to include pilgrims and bandits that prey on those pilgrims, so on.

When it comes to money, WBL and ABP, you should actually check the interaction with the Kingdom Building rules. Certain building play into this, some of them....
- Provide a bonus to kingdom attributes, which in turn is important for your Kingdom rolls to generate BP.
- Raise the base value cap by a fixed amount. This will influence shopping.
- Provide magic item sales slots and the option to oder/let craft them.

The ABP is at the request of the players, as they aren't confident in their ability to choose the correct items for their characters. I'll see how that interacts with the Kingdom Building rules, but it's unlikely to change.


Should you have smart players that understand that the kingdom is basically also sorta-kinda a character that should also be optimized, like a personal character, they will work out how the "Upgrade from"/"Discount to"/"Site Bonus" interaction is (ex: The Stag Fort gives a 50% discount on Castle, which gives a 50% on Noble Villa, while a Foundry will add straight BP to any resource generating hexes). So, basically, with the right choices (a Bank, Inn, Magic Shop in every settlement...) and knowing that you can exchange 1BP = 4K gp in both directions, the limit to wealth and therefore items is just time.

My players aren't dumb, but their interest in mechanical optimisation is pretty minimal. This is a group I've often had to tune down for in the past, and barring a sudden change in their level of interest in the maths of the game, I presume I'll have to do for this time too. Currently we're looking at an all LG party, so kingdom funds and personal funds will likely be strictly separate, which is backed up by what the players are telling me they'd like to play.


So, back to the earlier point. The whole "First World Invasion" that will happen later on basically has two effects: A party will start to outfit themselves to deal with Fey and such, prepping them to confront the Fairy Queen, at the same time it will keep their armies occupied, so they have to do it personally and not just kill the Dragon with archers (note: using the War rules, a dragon is no match for an army above a certain size and level). So if you change the basic setup from "First World Invasion" to "Dreamlands Invasion", this is going to be a bit problematic because so far, outsiders and aberrations have played no real role (compared to humanoids (giants) and fey) and the planar overlap would not deal with the existing exploration rules and aspects, because Dreamlands work different (see Occult Adventures and Planar Adventures).

Personally, I see no real gain in making those sweeping changes.

I think I may not have been clear enough. The Dreamlands and the First World are one and the same in the context of this game, but that's because I'm not using Occult Adventures rules in general, so there are no actual Dreamlands as their own entity, just a small part of the First World that is called that and shares some similarities. The First World invasion will be different cosmetically but not actually - the fey creatures in question are merely under the control of the Last Prince, rather than serving the original antagonist. I might add one or two other outsider/abberation encounters as they move to the Thousand Breaths equivalent, and some encounters with the Hounds of Tindalos in other places in the campaign. But I expect the vast bulk of the fey elements to be altered only slightly.

[ArendK]

As someone who read through and hated the whole "suddenly in you're dealing with the First World" shift in Kingmaker, I'll offer my solution which is a slightly different direction. I avoid the cosmic horror/Lovecraftian mixing as it doesn't go usually too well in fantasy type games IMHO.

Following the War of the River Kings, let the party enjoy a time of recovery, peace, and prosperity in their kingdom (minus usual kingdom shenanigans). Work up the connection to Brevoy, and really dive into the politics there inviting the party to take part; it's got a heavy Game of Thrones feel, even down to having analogs to the different houses and themes (Dragonscale Throne/Iron Throne, House Rogarvia/Targaryen, Surtova/Lannisters, Medyved/Starks, etc.) even down to the dragons playing a prominent role in the history and the missing family. It doesn't take much to add a fantastical edge to a lot of the characters in GoT if you want to really dive into it, or create your own. Adding in the Aldori Swordlords is probably the only one that doesn't have a direct analogy. So characters like Bronn of the Blackwater, the Clegane brothers, the Lannister family, etc. can make an appearance if you like (I suggest heavily altering them so it's not an obvious ripoff and be ready with your wit at the table).

There's a thread on the Paizo forums that a GM used of their notes that details the MASSIVE amount of depth they used in the Brevoy politics; awesome resource to use. Let them get some adventures and intrigue quests in Brevoy, some espionage actions against them back home, etc. Start trickling in rumors of weird creatures coming from certain areas (personally, I pulled out the old Red Hand of Doom and ramped up the dragonspawn to appropriate levels, as well as the necessary NPC's for the module). Play up rumors of rebellion, that the Rogarvia family heir has been found (make several red herring leads if they actually want to pursue this). Play up the espionage angle where the Brevic families are too busy pointing fingers at each other over sabotages, assassinations, major thefts, etc, and only a few people are concerned it may actually be the Rogarvia heir returning.

Instead of Tiamat, they are dedicated to Choral the Conqueror and his return to Brevoy with his dragon army (Choral was a "human", but you could do this as a variety of ways- a dragon in human form, a descendant, or a half dragon descendant; whatever floats your boat). Let massive primary dragons accompanying him (he had two ancient reds with him when her first conquered the region, plus any others they have recruited) emerge from geographically appropriate areas, and let the party decide how to deal with the massive monsters and their spawned underlings as well as orc/goblin minions (alternatively, you could also pull elements for a massive mercenary army or some such similar from Katapesh, Arcadia, or any other incredibly distant land to suit your fancy as ground troops, but then you'd have the logistical query of how the frag did this many soldiers get this far with NO ONE NOTICING! Elfgates come to mind) who follow them. Brevoy seeks the aid of the Party's Kingdom, and we're off to the races. Let them fight for survival, taking over the Dragonscale Throne, or whatever else motivates them

Edit- One way of foreshadowing the movement of the armies is it is casually brought up by an envoy from Katapesh, Iobaria, or wherever else as part of a casual conversation about rumors and travels. It looks like boats COULD go from the Castrovin Sea into Northern/Eastern Brevoy and if you wanted to really vex your players for involvement, use the rivers that run through their kingdom have a connecting point or secret connecting point that the invaders could use as another point of entry. Enemy spellcasters might be able to trivialize any logistical barriers to moving an army of terrifying size across. Have a full party of "Generals and advisors" to challenge the party in their respective skills that accompany Choral. Since the party will likely be LOADED with wealth, they can be the same way (they have at least 2 dragons hordes funding them, plus years of planning and waiting).

The final battle would likely be against Choral the Conqueror himself (in whatever form, style, and setting you deem epic enough, whether in the Valley of Fire, a naval battle, a volcano, in their throne room, at the Dragonscale Throne, whatever works for your group).

I really don't like the "out of nowhere here's the First World and dealing with this nymph wanting to invade" as there's so little real leads for the party to follow to make sense of it, and it completely misses out on the regional tone of the AP.

[Quarian Rex]

I've always liked the idea of Kingmaker, and have been disappointed that they never continued with other APs of a similar vein, but was massively turned off when I realized that the BBEG was coming from the fey direction. This is a great idea and it looks like you have a solid basis here. Nice job. Please continue to post what changes you have made/how it goes in game. This is the kind of thing that might get me to actually run Kingmaker.



I avoid the cosmic horror/Lovecraftian mixing as it doesn't go usually too well in fantasy type games IMHO.


I have to strongly disagree with this kind of sentiment. I think that cosmic horror settings can do very well when you replace the standard weak willed academics of Lovecraftian stories with action based power-fantasy inserts like PCs. Some great examples of doing this would be Bloodborne (have a look here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLc7m7Z3bbU) for a pretty good breakdown if you are unfamiliar) and Robert E. Howard's Conan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plilgFrcYow) books. The quote at @3:10 on the Conan video has always stuck with me. It is a fine example of how the setting can be used to beautifully tell all kinds of stories besides those of mental degradation while staring at the infinite abyss.

While Lovecraft himself would have made a horrible DM (those weren't the stories he was interested in telling), his works can work beautifully in a game.

[Wartex1]

If your party is all LG, maybe tie the enemy into how they're constructing their kingdom. If they're making strongly Lawful kingdom, maybe have Hellknights try to get into the kingdom in groups and deal with the tensions between them and the locals.