View Full Version : [Creature/Race]Arcadian Rebel

2007-09-17, 04:31 PM
About the Creature I made this in a burst of inspiration/boredom the other day. The Arcadian Rebel is designed to be an exotic player race and is very, very closely related to the Arcadian Avenger (MM5).

Arcadia is not a realm for individuality, and the vast legions of its Avengers even less so. But even in the harmony of the Peaceable Kingdom of Arcadia, there are some cursed to be different.

These misfits often seem like normal Arcadian Avengers at first. Perhaps their creation was simply flawed, or their connection to the forces of law has been weakened. A few are born in touch with an inherantly chaotic force - such as the Primal Music - and are merely victims of the whims of fate.

Some manage to exist normally, if not happily, in the society of their fellow Avengers, never voicing their doubts and opinions. The vast majority of these unfortunates, however, cannot contain their differences, and are cast out of the perfection of Arcadia into the material plane.

The fall to the earth of the Material from the lofty heights of their heaven is long and painful, and in a merciless gesture of punishment, the powers they once served strip the Avenger's angelic nature from them. Their eyes fade to blue, their skin turns the color of a mortal human, and her wings transform to hard, unforgiving steel, never again to grant her the blessing of flight. In the fall, their armor sheds from their body, leaving them to crash to the earth naked, alone, and disgraced.

Many of these fallen Avengers - these Rebels - become quite embittered towards law and order after that, willingly and wholly embracing chaos. Whether such Rebels turn to good or evil is entirely dependant on their interactions with mortals. A rare few seek redemption, collecting the lost fragments of their armor and working to further Law on the Material plane in hopes of reclaiming their heavenly home.

An Arcadian Rebel who breeds with a mortal gives birth to an Aasimar two years later.

Racial Features

+6 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +6 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma. Arcadian Rebels retain the same physical and mental strength as their former sisters.

Medium - As medium creatures, Arcadian Rebels have no penalties or bonuses associated with their size.

Outsider (Native, Chaotic) - An Arcadian Rebel is an Outsider native to whatever plane it was banished to, and the rejection of Arcadia leaves Chaos' mark on them. Avengers do not need to eat, drink, or sleep, and may be raised or ressurected if slain on their chosen Material.

Aligned Strike (Chaotic) - An Arcadian Rebel's natural weapons and any weapon it weilds are considered Chaotic for the purposes of determining damage reduction.

Darkvision 60ft

Natural Armor +4 - As long as the Arcadian Rebel is not flat-footed, she may use her steel wings to provide a +4 natural armor bonus to her Armor Class.

Steelwings - An Arcadian Rebel has large wings of steel covered in dagger-like feathers. While they render her incapable of flight, they do serve as a secondary natural attack that deals 1d8+1/2 of the Rebel's strength modifier of slashing damage. Once every other round, she may flap her wings strongly, creating a 10ft cone of dagger-like feathers that deals a number of d4 equal to the Rebel's base attack bonus of slashing damage. Attacking in this manner is a standard action.

Curse of Arcadia - Whenever an alignment-based spell or ability affects a particular alignment in a negative fashion (Such as Smite Evil or Magic Circle Against Law), that spell affects the Arcadian Rebel as though she were that alignment. She still detects as whatever alignment she actually is.

Legion Training - Arcadian Rebels are automatically proficient in Longswords and gain Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat.

Favored Class - Barbarian. Many Rebels are filled with fury and rage over what has been done to them, and it leads naturally into the Barbarian's path.

Level Adjustment: +3

And that's it. Any suggestions to improve?

The Neoclassic
2007-09-17, 04:48 PM
This calls for WAY more than a +2 LA. Just from the base stats, I'd go with +5 or perhaps more. Sorry, but those are ridiculously good. That said, the wings are pretty cool. I also like the curse; racial penalties are often fun to try, and this one seems to fit well with their description.

2007-09-17, 05:12 PM
The original Arcadian Avenger has an L.A. of +2, madam, with the same stat adjustments and better stuff. Okay, they also have eight hit dice, but still.

2007-09-17, 05:41 PM
The MM5 is also a very broken book. With that said, this race deserves an LA with the +4 Rating.

Now, I love the class and flavor. Good mix of penalties and bonuses. However, I'd put a dice progression into the wings. 1d8+1/2 of STR is good at low levels, but weak at high levels. Make the dice progression into something that evolves with the level.

2007-09-17, 05:48 PM
Fair enough - what progression would you reccomend?

And is -every- new book broken nowadays? As a staunch enemy of munchkins and power gamers (ask Cog if you doubt me), I'm telling you that I see nothing wrong with that book.

2007-09-17, 06:06 PM
I'm with queen on the LA. The original avenger also had 8 racial hid dice, so that's make what; 8d8, 3/4 bab, good fort, will, 2 skill points, ordinary three feats, no class specials, only racial specials. Now take 8d10, full bab, good fort, 2 skill points, 8 feats...
Or.. 8d8, 3/4 bab, good fort, will, 2 skill points, turn undead, two domains, fourth level spells...

See, that's the thing about racial hit dice; it makes you weaker than full class level. And that's why an original avenger may be more balanced with 8 racial hit dice and a level adjustment 2 (Starting ECL 10) than a rebel, with no racial hit dice, but a level adjustment 2. (meaning ECL 2, for a 0-hd rebel. 3 for a first lvl character.)

2007-09-17, 06:12 PM
+5 though...that's BEYOND harsh. This is NOT that good.

Also, original Avenger - 8d8, FULL B.A.B, same racial stat adjustments, Elude Chance 3/day, Blade Rend, Wrath, a Lawful, Good, Magical strike, Fly 60, +6 natural armor - no, the original Avenger kicks a Rebel's ASS in melee.

Second, Rebels are affected by ANYTHING that targets alignment. That's...I don't think even -I- comprehend how boned they are against any caster, ever. I'm leaning towards +3 or +4

2007-09-17, 06:27 PM
Still, an avenger against a rebel-cleric.. the avenger doesn't have a chance, since the rebel has many more spells and special abilities, while having the same saves and hit die.


At eight lvl, a rebel could cast about three 4 fourth level spells, 5 third level spells, 6 second level, 6 first level. Ouch. Now, the Rebel also has armor proficiencies.
So a rebel can cast her spells, like righteous might and the like, (haven't looked at the spell level) her magic vestments, her weapon enchants, perhaps a flamestrike every now and then... Some crowd control, and buffs, buffs, buffs. Bull's strength, endurance, cat's grace, you name it, the rebel casts it.

Do you really think an avenger can keep up?

2007-09-17, 06:31 PM
With proper tactics and clever use of flight, yes. I also forgot to mention the three good saves.

+5 is waay to harsh in my opinion - I'm thinking strong +3 or weak +4, considering that even CoDZilla Rebels are absolutely janked against casters with a Protection From spell or, god forbid, if they come up against a paladin or blackguard or any other alignment-slayer class (Justicar of Tyr comes to mind for kicking some Rebel ass). It's a huge and glaring weak spot - I'm leaning towards +3 right now.

Oh, and somehow, Avengers have 8 skills. Maxed out ones. Your guess is as good as mine.

Nothing stops Avengers from wearing armor either, and I'm willing to bet the ones using the Crusader class do. The one in the book is just the CR 6 version - I'm thinking of them as a monster race.

2007-09-17, 06:32 PM
Since the avenger has three good saves, is still an incredible force in melee, and the rebel is the wrong alignment for all purposes, maybe, yeah. Also, flame strike? A Rebel 2/cleric 8 is not going to have flame strike, you can be sure of that.

Now, I do think that LA+2 is too low, but +5? I've never been one to punish the players for playing something more interesting, myself, but I guess some people are. I'd place them at +3/+4, myself.

2007-09-17, 06:59 PM
So if I look at this in that light: A class-dependant drawback, being the wrong alignment for everything, is the grave weak spot. Ehm.. So for a fighter, rogue, ranger, barbarian or any other class that has no alignment-based specials, this would pose no problem whatsoever.
Why not give it a weakness everyone can abuse, instead?
See, you already pay 2 levels for a drow. Who gets +2 dex, +2 cha, (I thought) -2 con, and some spell like abilities like that of a gnome, + darkness 1/day. Oh, yes, and a good darkvision score, I forgot, plus spell resistance, and a good one. True. But these, powerful though they are, do not in any way compare to the awesome force of these rebels.
On the other hand:

They should've stopped at MM2. Just simply stopped.

2007-09-17, 07:12 PM
Okay, first, let's throw out CoDzilla here, because you could be playing an effing Smurf and still break those two classes.

A Rebel Barbarian fighting a Human Barbarian of equal ECL will get her ass spanked - the other barb has more HP, more B.A.B, and more class features. He's gonna beat her ass like a red-headed stepchild.

A Rebel Fighter is behind on feats, B.A.B., and HP.

A Rebel Wizard is behind on spells, spell levels, and is weakened by fighting a caster.

I'd say +3 is reasonable to keep her behind - now, are you gonna help, or keep being sarcastic? I accept that +2 is too low now that I think about it, but the weakness -is- large and glaring, especially considering the HORDES of monsters that can prey on alignments. +3 covers the ability adjustment and the racial features rather nicely - +5 is TOO MUCH.

2007-09-17, 08:27 PM
I'd say: Look it up in Savage Species, then.

And I wasn't being all that sarcastic.

2007-09-17, 08:45 PM
Here's what Savage Species tells me -

Natural Armor is worth a +1 LA

Her wing attack (the feather spray) is worth +1 LA

Unbalanced ability scores are worth +1 (none of the bonuses are above 10, or it would be +2)

Her Aligned Strike is worth another +1

While it has no rules for negative qualities, I'll assign their alignment vulnerability the same adjustment as having a Small size - a minus 1 level adjustment.

Total LA - +3.

2007-09-17, 09:07 PM
Sounds about right but the stat bonuses are well... kinda CHEAP.

I think this should be assigned at least a +4 Level Adjustment though... Darkvision AND Wings together... when in total darkness say in a cave, you're basically well... you get the idea.

2007-09-18, 05:27 AM
Dear friend, if you read the entry again, you'll find no fly speed is ever mentioned. This is because they cannot fly - the Steelwings are a -weapon-, not a mode of transportation.

[EDIT] For future reference, Savage Species only assigns those stats a +1 LA. And it make sense if you think about it - if you played a Medium race with only those stats as its features, it'd probably be worth that LA. Since none of the abilities really sync together except the possibility of two longsword slashes and a wing slash, each one should be (and is) judged on the basis of, "If a race just had this, what would it be worth?"

2007-09-18, 10:10 AM
It has an ability bonus of +20. That's +3 LA, debatably.

2007-09-18, 10:29 AM
I'd stick to a +4 LA, personally. Or, give it 6d8 Racial HD. Because it lacks racial HD, the relatively low LA makes it MUCH more powerful than it's base, and also doesn't really make all that much sense. When banished, do they forget all their training? Just give them racial HD, and you're set. I'd even think going with 6d8 +2 LA is a fair settup.

2007-09-18, 02:07 PM
I didn't assign them hit dice because I figured they'd have been stripped away in the descent from heaven - sort of, "You don't -even- have the HP to survive this, we'll take the dice instead".

And I find it hilarious that when I went to Savage Species like reccomended, the person who told me to go in the first place is contesting it.

I hate to sound like I'm arguing against all the advice, I just want better justifications than most of you guys have given me - which have typically been vague at worst and related to CoDZilla at worst.

+4 sounds reasonable enough, I'm just worried about how much lower it brings them against casters, which have an easy enough time waltzing through them in the first place - especially divine casters packing all the really nasty alignment spells. Not to mention all the monsters that can prey on them - almost every other outsider they come against has a superior advantage in that situation.

2007-09-19, 07:33 AM
Ehm.. Aren't outsiders basically a very rare deal, overall? I mean; demons, devils, angels, all that sort.. If they were a common phenomenon, wouldn't every roleplaying world be a barren wasteland, on account of the native creatures not being able to keep up with these divine powers? I know it is a fantasy-setting, but in order to be really, really screwed on something like this, you need a hell of a lot of aligned spells and weaponry, and let's be frank, deities don't just pop up everywhere unleashing critters from other planes of existence.
Yes, vulnerability to any alignment-based spell or effect is a big draw-back, but these rebels would be a rare deal, in any case, and that causes opponents to be sufficiently knowledgeable in order to abuse this. A your-average-paladin won't use a smite attempt on this creature if it doesn't register as evil, because paladins don't have the skill points to spend on knowledge skills, like The Planes... Likewise, many clerics would rather go for Religion and Arcana than Planar knowledge. What with concentration and spellcraft tossed in, as well, it'd need a nice int score to keep up with the skills.
Wizards would know, and could abuse it easily, but hey; they're low in HP, at the start of a battle, low in AC, and, let's face it, said wizard would need to prepare alignment spells in advance.
It's still a major drawback when your game turns celestial, but at low levels, it won't, and at high levels, if it will turn interplanar, there are plenty of fun things to device.
For instance; plant creatures take double damage from fire. That means that any creature that uses fire will nearly automatically win, right? Still, a plant-template doesn't give that much special abilities, and certainly little ability bonusses, but is already at +2 LA. And there's a lot more people flinging fire around then there's people using alignment-based specials.

2007-09-19, 10:00 AM
Plus, the reason that most outsiders would stomp all over them is because of the Racial HD. Just adding a few would reduce LA, and Outsider HD arn't bad ones to get (Cleric BAB, All Good Saves, 8+Int skills). I think for ever 4 HD you have, LA is reduced by one, though I'm not sure.

2007-09-19, 03:48 PM
Alright, I'll set it at +4, though I still worry a bit. I'll get it tested - or test it myself - and see how it works out. Undead (not many, but enough, realized that earlier) and Outsiders will definitely be a big weakness.

I'll post an example character with 32 point buy later on.

Also, your clerics take Arcana? Why? It makes more sense for them to take Planes - they spend their time contemplating the afterlife and the realms of their deities. If you want Arcana, go talk to the wizard >.>

2007-09-20, 05:01 PM
Well, the one single plane of your deity will obviously be covered in Religion, won't it? After all; we get to know things about Heaven because the Church tells people stuff about 'it.' And of course, there's stuff about it in the Qor'aan.
Not much in the Bible, I'll admit, but it's still Religion.
Planar Theories are in Higher Physics, actually, and there's researches done for new and improved theories all the time, in a nearly closed-to-itself subject.
It's a completely different branch of research.

By the way: You're right; undead might prove a bit of a problem, too, but undead are usually a problem to anyone not currently controlling them.

2007-09-20, 05:10 PM
Except The Planes is also the study of outsiders such as angels and demons - which Clerics need to know about - the processes of the afterlife (Religion just gets you what your eternal reward is, not how you get there), and the dangers of certain planes you may either have to go to or will end up in once dead. It's very much a clerical path of research.

2007-09-20, 06:41 PM
LA +3 sounds like a good comperise to me