Best use for command undead (3.5)

[Skullruss]

I understand that command undead can be used for mega cheese, especially if the undead has no intelligence, as it gets no save. So my question to you is what undead shenanigans can i pull, that is, what is the best unintelligent undead i can control with this puny level 2 spell. Also consider undead that I might reliably be able to force the save upon as a low level (less than 10) dread necro. Assume hit dice doesn't matter.

Bonus points if they have higher wisdom.

[Troacctid]

Any undead you run into.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Chain Spell allows you to control multiple undead for a very low cost, especially mindless undead. I'm not sure what the best undead are in general, but zombie dragons (Draconomicon) are pretty good, depending on breath weapon, and fire giant skeletons are a classic.

[Deophaun]

At least when it comes to skeletons (maybe, maybe zombies), the duration of command undead can be ignored, as skeletons will always follow the last command they were given. Hand your commanded skeleton an axe and tell it to go cut down a forest and it will, regardless of how big the forest is (though the local flora and fauna may have something to say about it). Want to get rid of a mountain range? Though it may take ten thousand years, a single casting of command undead will have a skeleton do it one swing of a pickaxe at a time without rest. Have a mill but no nearby river to run the wheel? A commanded skeleton will ensure the wheel is always spinning. As long as your command is set-and-forget, command gives you a permanent servant to carry it out.

[Boggartbae]

At least when it comes to skeletons (maybe, maybe zombies), the duration of command undead can be ignored, as skeletons will always follow the last command they were given. Hand your commanded skeleton an axe and tell it to go cut down a forest and it will, regardless of how big the forest is (though the local flora and fauna may have something to say about it). Want to get rid of a mountain range? Though it may take ten thousand years, a single casting of command undead will have a skeleton do it one swing of a pickaxe at a time without rest. Have a mill but no nearby river to run the wheel? A commanded skeleton will ensure the wheel is always spinning. As long as your command is set-and-forget, command gives you a permanent servant to carry it out.

Do you have an official source/ruling for this? I always assumed that if an unintelligent undead became uncontrolled, it would immediately start killing all living things it could see (admittedly I dont have a source for this either)

[Deophaun]

Do you have an official source/ruling for this?
It's called the Monster Manual:

A skeleton does only what it is ordered to do. It can draw no conclusions of its own and takes no initiative.
"Oh, I have no more master, I can stop what I'm doing and go on a killing spree" would be drawing a conclusion and taking initiative.

[J-H]

A Dread Necro in my party uses Command Undead to keep some of his minions in line. He's been liking the zombie babau and the skeletal allosaurus.

(Allowing a necromancer into a dungeon that auto-reanimates dead bodies as zombies after 2-3 days was perhaps not a wise idea).

[Cavir]

(Allowing a necromancer into a dungeon that auto-reanimates dead bodies as zombies after 2-3 days was perhaps not a wise idea).
Uh ohhh, DM is having second thoughts :smalleek:
LOL

I've been "good" though! I did destroy most of the raptor bodies so they wouldn't come back. Yes I set some up for reanimating but some will be left behind as reserves to come back for just in case. I know better to not have an army of undead on the battlefield. I read elsewhere (a DN handbook?) about someone burying undead everywhere so he'd always have reinforcements to go back for. I like that idea.


He's been liking the zombie babau and the skeletal allosaurus.
...the former skeletal allosaurus. RIFP (Rest in Final Piece) Ally! *sniff sniff*
Now to go kill a T-Rex, wait for the Complex to animate it, then Command it, simple!

Gotta admit, they've help prevent several TPKs so far. What were the ECLs of those raptor fights? :smallcool:


As long as your command is set-and-forget, command gives you a permanent servant to carry it out.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/5cb200146b45eb17e3d451ed9917eb62/tenor.gif?itemid=9201571


Back to Skullruss' original post... Beware having your mass undead army turn against you suddenly with one casting of (Greater) Dispel Magic. I was riding the above skeletal allosaurus (called Ally) when the soon to be zombied babau dispelled my control. Ally then spun its head 180 degrees (no muscles flexibility to worry about!) and tried biting its rider (me) in half. Good times to be had! Having multiple intelligent undead suddenly regaining freedom will greatly reduce chances of reaching lichhood :smallfrown:

Another idea... can you order your undead to follow the orders of other party members? Give each party member a personal guardian while having your own minions too. Should go over well with the Good party members :smallbiggrin:

[The Viscount]

Though Allips and Shadows may not have many HD, at the CR that you encounter them very few, if any monsters have anything that can damage them, unless they have the right spells or SLAs.

If you just want to control one absolute unit of an undead, the Hulking Corpse is a 20HD CR 9 undead, but with no int he's commanded without fail.

[Lapak]

At least when it comes to skeletons (maybe, maybe zombies), the duration of command undead can be ignored, as skeletons will always follow the last command they were given. Hand your commanded skeleton an axe and tell it to go cut down a forest and it will, regardless of how big the forest is (though the local flora and fauna may have something to say about it). Want to get rid of a mountain range? Though it may take ten thousand years, a single casting of command undead will have a skeleton do it one swing of a pickaxe at a time without rest. Have a mill but no nearby river to run the wheel? A commanded skeleton will ensure the wheel is always spinning. As long as your command is set-and-forget, command gives you a permanent servant to carry it out.
'Permanent' is a relative term. A pickaxe will wear down before the mountain will; having no initiative means that the skeleton will then wear itself to nothing trying to remove a mountain with its own bony hands.

(Arguably, most undead and automata should break themselves apart over time even given adequate tools, since they don't self-repair.)

Edit: flavor encounter idea: the party comes across a hugely enhanced skeletal monster swinging the broken haft of a pickaxe at the air. It will leave them alone if they don't interfere with its attempts to 'dig a tunnel.'

[liquidformat]

It's called the Monster Manual:

"Oh, I have no more master, I can stop what I'm doing and go on a killing spree" would be drawing a conclusion and taking initiative.

That only applies until something living comes within range to set-off its unending yearn to kill living things...

[Boggartbae]

"Oh, I have no more master, I can stop what I'm doing and go on a killing spree" would be drawing a conclusion and taking initiative.

That doesn't show that they will continue to work past the duration of command undead. Once the spell wears off, I see no reason why the undead would keep working, since they no longer view your commands as favourable.

[Deophaun]

That only applies until something living comes within range to set-off its unending yearn to kill living things...
Mindless undead have no such thing.

That doesn't show that they will continue to work past the duration of command undead. Once the spell wears off, I see no reason why the undead would keep working, since they no longer view your commands as favourable.
Which has nothing to do with unintelligent undead, who don't view things as favorable or unfavorable. They follow orders and are prohibited from drawing conclusions and taking initiative. They have an order to follow. They cannot react to changing conditions due to the prohibitions. That is all that matters.

Further, let's go to the Book of Bad Latin:

Mindless undead merely respond to preset commands or stimuli, driven by nothing other than the energy that animates them. These undead have no outlook; they are robbed of thought. They are nearly mechanical in their actions, and often those actions are as easy to anticipate as the revolution of a water wheel.
Last time I checked, you don't have to wonder how close you can get to a water wheel before it's burning hatred for all non-spinning things takes over and causes it to try to kill you. Gazeebos, on the other hand...

[liquidformat]

Mindless undead have no such thing.

Since when an uncontrolled mindless undead will attack when it sense a living creature

[Deophaun]

Since when an uncontrolled mindless undead will attack when it sense a living creature
I have provided quotes from two sources that are the Primary Sources on monsters and undead that say otherwise. They trump whatever unsupported opinion you may have on the matter.

[liquidformat]

so then how does a mindless uncontrolled undead that has never been controlled function, does it just stand there doing nothing even when attacked?

[ViperMagnum357]

On nonabilities from the SRD:


Intelligence

Any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks.

Just because something is mindless does not mean it just stands there like a powered down computer until it receives magical input-otherwise, all Vermin and most Oozes would starve to death because they would not hunt and feed without outside direction. Mindless does not mean empty-it means the creature reverts to instinct in lieu of outside command and instruction, whatever that may be. There might be mindless constructs and the like that will just stand there when being attacked unless directed otherwise; but Mindless Undead specifically shift to Neutral Evil unless possessing different template characteristics, indicating at least some instinctual inclinations. Compare that with the typically True Neutral alignment of most Vermin, Constructs, and Oozes.

Skeletons are weird, though.

[Deophaun]

so then how does a mindless uncontrolled undead that has never been controlled function, does it just stand there doing nothing even when attacked?
By RAW, yes. It does nothing. This is why there is a big question about whether animate dead deserves to be an [Evil] spell, as it does nothing except employ negative energy on a corpse to turn it into a machine, no more innately harmful than a lawnmower or an automatic door opener.


Ignoring the part about skeletons specifically being prohibited from taking initiative or drawing conclusions.

[ViperMagnum357]

Fair enough, since that is Skeleton specific, but the point stands for any other mindless Undead, including Zombies. Really weird distinction for Skeletons, though-it makes them useless as random encounters. I think I would agree with Boggartbae in regards to Command Undead specifically-once the spell ends, the Skeletons are no longer controlled and revert to passive mode until someone takes command of them again.

[liquidformat]

By RAW, yes. It does nothing. This is why there is a big question about whether animate dead deserves to be an [Evil] spell, as it does nothing except employ negative energy on a corpse to turn it into a machine, no more innately harmful than a lawnmower or an automatic door opener.

In general I believe if you are taking a rule to an dysfunctional extreme like this you are misinterpreting the rule. But hey I am not actively trying to break the game...

[Segev]

Another key thing regarding command undead is that it doesn't care what the HD are. The biggest, heaviest-hitting skeleton or zombie you can find is only one casting of the spell for days of obedience.

I believe the Hulking Corpse or something in Libris Mortis is a very durable 20-HD mindless undead.

If you are into chain command undead, consider picking up a trio of Slaymates that you keep around to let you prepare it out of a second-level spell slot, too.

[Deophaun]

In general I believe if you are taking a rule to an dysfunctional extreme like this
Point of order. The definition of "dysfunctional" is not "outcome I don't like."

[Boggartbae]

I think I would agree with Boggartbae

Hey can I sig this?

[ViperMagnum357]

Hey can I sig this?

Fine by me.

[liquidformat]

Point of order. The definition of "dysfunctional" is not "outcome I don't like."

Ya because not work outside of being controlled to do something isn't dysfunctional at all and I am the only one who thinks that reading is dysfunctional...

[Deophaun]

Ya because not work outside of being controlled to do something isn't dysfunctional at all and I am the only one who thinks that reading is dysfunctional...
Considering 99.9% of skeletons are created already controlled, and those that don't typically have powers that explicitly define their actions after creation (specific being > general), that does make it only a reading you dislike. That other people also think the reading is dysfunctional is fine: you can have company while being wrong.

[ericgrau]

By RAW, yes. It does nothing. This is why there is a big question about whether animate dead deserves to be an [Evil] spell, as it does nothing except employ negative energy on a corpse to turn it into a machine, no more innately harmful than a lawnmower or an automatic door opener.

I found it interesting that I couldn't find anything in 3.5e that says zombies or skeleton hate and attack the living. Though I did find it in 5e.

However I have to say to the age old argument that if you summon dark energies that somehow block the return of a soul to animate a lawnmower then yes, it is an evil act. You may continue to neatly trim the lawns of everyone low income person in the neighborhood with your Dark Lawnmower and those are good acts, but then it's just a mixed bag. 3.5e is unclear on exactly how it the process of animating is evil. But you can't say "RAW doesn't tell me the details therefore it's not that bad. RAW also says it's evil but I'm just going to ignore that and disagree with that part of RAW". Rather it means the details are for the DM to decide. Perhaps it traps kitten souls, who knows.

[ExLibrisMortis]

For the record, I don't think Deophaun's reading is dysfunctional, and it's RAW--the skeleton entry is clear.

[ericgrau]

For the record, I don't think Deophaun's reading is dysfunctional, and it's RAW--the skeleton entry is clear.
I dunno if it's dysfunctional or not. It depends on your fluff I think. The 3.5e SRD is lacking in fluff. I really like how 5e has fluff and it's quite interesting. I managed to spook my players a little bit, then have some fun RP... before they waltzed all over the easy kills. They hadn't read the 5e version. I also added in my own fluff too. I think every DM should pick some kind of fluff. I also kind of like the idea that there is nothing at all wrong with your mindless undead robots doing mundane chores except for the little part that they're powered by dark energies created by some unspeakably evil ritual.

[Deophaun]

However I have to say to the age old argument that if you summon dark energies that somehow block the return of a soul to animate a lawnmower then yes, it is an evil act.
There is a lot of D&D's fluff I dislike. Blocking a soul from returning doesn't strike me as evil: if anything, you're preserving the natural balance on that end. The Inevitables should be pleased. Trapping a soul to prevent it from leaving, however, does. So if you were using negative energy to bind a soul to a corpse to use as an animus, I'd get it. But that's not the fluff. The fluff is that negative energy itself moves the body, and the use of the body in this way makes returning the soul--which you really shouldn't be doing from a natural perspective--more difficult (not impossible, just difficult).

But yeah, I do like my undead dangerous. The kindly mage raising the dead to work the land and provide bountiful food for starving peasants should run the risk of accidentally unleashing an army that screams hate for all the living. You honestly don't even need to change the mechanics themselves, just throw in something about the very existence of undead thinning the barrier between this world and the next to allow worse things through. Maybe a corpse charged with negative energy is easier for a malicious entity to possess, so the skeleton farmers will all go on a killing spree eventually. Just something.

As it is, the only thing is the [Evil] tag, as if Asmodeus just got all the gods to agree creating undead was an evil act as a concession for casual Wednesdays, and that was that. Bad fluff. I don't knock anyone who wants to change it.

Still doesn't make it dysfunctional.

[Boggartbae]

If skeletons are a specific case, and they will not take any actions unless commanded, then ok. I learned another silly rule today. My problem is with the belief that unintelligent undead will continue to do the last thing you told them to do after command undead expires. If there is no magic compelling them to do anything, then they should reset to their basic uninteligent and evil instincts, which I guess for skeletons is "do nothing".

[Nifft]

Order a mindless skeleton to think for itself.

[Boggartbae]

Order a mindless skeleton to think for itself.

What am I your mother? figure it out yourself! I'm not going to hold your hand for the rest of your un-life!

But yes, to answer the OP's question, Segev had the right idea that you should use it to control the biggest undead you can. Also, don't be afraid to try to snag a vampire or something else that can create spawn. Just make sure that you prepare the spell enough times that the creature can't possibly make all of its saves and you should be good. Of course if your army of the damned gets too big, the DM may just dispel your command undead, but then you have a fun story at least :smalltongue:

[Deophaun]

If skeletons are a specific case, and they will not take any actions unless commanded, then ok. I learned another silly rule today. My problem is with the belief that unintelligent undead will continue to do the last thing you told them to do after command undead expires. If there is no magic compelling them to do anything, then they should reset to their basic uninteligent and evil instincts, which I guess for skeletons is "do nothing".
The magic compelled them to take the order. It did not compel them to do anything else.

If I have the password to a computer for a week and set up a backup schedule for it, the computer does not purge the schedule simply because the password is changed.

[ExLibrisMortis]

As it is, the only thing is the [Evil] tag, as if Asmodeus just got all the gods to agree creating undead was an evil act as a concession for casual Wednesdays, and that was that. Bad fluff. I don't knock anyone who wants to change it.
Actually, that is sort of what I go with, except it's the Good side that outlawed it. (I do agree that the [evil] tag as written is unsupported in core--you need to use LM variant rules to explain it.)

There are five major potential conflicts in the Great Wheel: Good versus Evil, Law versus Chaos, Fire versus Water, Air versus Earth, and Positive versus Negative. These conflicts aren't all equally important, but mosty are unresolved and pretty evenly balanced. The exception, for some reason, is the Positive versus Negative conflict. Virtually all beings are powered by positive energy--outsiders, elementals, even beings spawned by elder evils (aboleth)--they are all healed by positive energy. Creatures of positive energy respond badly to fire/earth/water/air/negative energy: they take damage, unless they are significantly composed of the element in question, as elementals or dragons are.

There's no particular reason why you couldn't have a flipped Great Wheel, where the polarity is reversed and everything is powered by negative energy (which is different from everyone being undead), or a Great Wheel where everything is powered by fire and water is borderline evil, or a balanced Great Wheel, where positive and negative energy-powered species live alongside one another. As it is, though, the choice and preference for positive energy is a fact, though it's more a matter of habit than anything; negative energy spells get branded as [evil] only because Good has condemned them, and Evil is more pragmatic about the tools they use. Essentially, the war between Positive and Negative has been fought and decided already: Positive won.

[Boggartbae]

The magic compelled them to take the order. It did not compel them to do anything else.

If I have the password to a computer for a week and set up a backup schedule for it, the computer does not purge the schedule simply because the password is changed.

Just because that's how computers work, doesn't mean that's how the rules in a fantasy rpg work. Also, computers could be argued to have an intelligence score, but no wisdom or charisma, which is the opposite of zombies and skelles, so I don't think that's a good analogy to use. The command undead spell gives you control over the subject, as stated in it's description:


This spell allows you some degree of control over an undead creature... ...When you control a mindless being, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “come here,” “go there,” “fight,” “stand still,” and so on. Nonintelligent undead won’t resist suicidal or obviously harmful orders.

You are controlling the target, so if the magic wears off and you are no longer controlling it, then it won't continue to carry out your orders. The magic is in their obedience, not your commands; if it worked the way you think it does, then the spell would be personal and enchant your voice or something.

I feel that the RAW and RAI on this are pretty cut and dry, so "never ending labour" shouldn't be a suggestion for the best uses of command undead. Also, even if it did work that way, it would be better to use animate dead, or something else with an HD limit, for your labourers, and then use command undead to control your fighting force.

[Segev]

*ahem*

The "animate dead should (not) be [evil]!" debate happens all the time, and I doubt any new ground will be trodden here. It is also very besides the point as to the best way to use command undead. Let's focus on that, shall we, please?



It's worth noting that a single item of command-word-activated command undead at CL 3 is 10,800 gp market value. That lasts 3 days on each undead you use it on, and you can cast it as often as you like. This is amazingly useful for controlling a personal mini-army of minions.

[liquidformat]

After thinking about it I can accept the skeletons can't do anything without being commanded though that does throw some module encounters out the door. However, I am not seeing the creating an evil creature isn't an evil act argument. Both Zombies and skeletons always get the NE alignment that is why it has the evil descriptor.

[Segev]

After thinking about it I can accept the skeletons can't do anything without being commanded though that does throw some module encounters out the door. However, I am not seeing the creating an evil creature isn't an evil act argument. Both Zombies and skeletons always get the NE alignment that is why it has the evil descriptor.

Ah, but you're missing the fun implications of those modules: if skeletons don't act without orders, then who gave them the orders they're following? Or rather...what?

[liquidformat]

Ah, but you're missing the fun implications of those modules: if skeletons don't act without orders, then who gave them the orders they're following? Or rather...what?

Good point, the other question is how many people IC realize that skeletons don't do anything without orders?

[Efrate]

attack nearest living thing sounds like a pretty good order for an ancient wizard. who may or may not be around in some definition of life. and hey nerull is a thing and he's old.

sounds like a fun campaign idea, who gave all these orders? was it one old powerful creator or multiple smaller ones? where did skeleton 0 arise from and who commanded it?

[Warchon]

I am currently AFB but doesn't the Libris Mortis have an entire section that goes into detail on the behavior of uncontrolled mindless undead?
I'm sure I recall reading about how they'll automatically attack any living they become aware of, and will even attack other Undead if they see them attack each other--preferentially attacking the one that initiated the combat.
And for that matter, I similarly recall reading that even "friendly" mindless undead require CONSTANT supervision to prevent them attacking living party members the moment they run out of standing orders, because the ONLY living thing they don't attack by default is their own animator/controller.

[GrayDeath]

Well, until recently I must admit I never used that Spell (my Necromancers usually Rebuked or similar), but last Game, our "Forced Cohort" Sorcerer (member of a group of adventurers who, rightfully, thought us the Bad guys (but wrongfully though we wee not fighting the same thread, that....survived the encounter^^) was commanded to command the End Boss of the Dungeon (an Undead Fiendish Shadow Black Dragon something or other with CR 17ish?).
Given that we were all around Level 10 at the Moment....the resulting look on the DM`s face was great. ^^

It led to 2 questions however (dont have Libris Mortis):

1.: What happens if you cast command undead on an undead you already command....and fail? Does it get free, or can you simply retry?

2.: Say we keep the Dragon (the Campaign does not use WBL, but isntead we can keep every ressource we manage to "claim"^^), if the above is "does not get free" the duration is as long as we like, how useful are commanded intelligent Undead as Guardians if one does not return to the place unless to renew the spell (we have a dungeon to guard now, after all^^).

[Warchon]

What happens if you cast command undead on an undead you already command....and fail? Does it get free, or can you simply retry?

Since you didn't actually dismiss the previous spell, it would remain in effect until you do so.
There's actually nothing in place that stops you from having two instances of the spell active simultaneously. Or even getting into a control battle because you and the BBEG -both- have it on simultaneously. (By the most common interpretations, this usually results in the poor thing either changing priorities every time they receive a new order for a mindless undead, or opposed charisma checks between the two casters to decide who it "likes" more, when an intelligent undead receives conflicting orders.)

However

How is it that you are failing in the first place? Mindless undead don't get a saving throw, and nonmindless undead don't get nearly as thoroughly dominated by the spell. In such a case, the spell is basically Charm Person and it is important to bear in mind that you're probably going to incur opposed charisma checks as soon as you tell it to act outside its nature--which you're likely doing just by saying "Don't eat my friends."
They also explicitly remember being Commanded, and may well seek revenge later on.