Tips for Building a Support/Control Sorcerer?

[KOLE]

Hey everyone,

We're starting a new campaign soon, and I've decided to play a full caster for the first time. All my other characters have been Rogues, Fighters, Barbs, or some multiclass of the three. I played a Paladin in a one shot but it turned into full intrigue so I never actually entered combat, so I'm asking for some general advice.

Our last campaign was heavy on tanks/frontliners, with a Conquest Pally, Cavalier, and my Barbarogue, backed up by a Feylock. The Feylock player was the most experienced of all of us, and pulled off a lot of fun tricks outside of combat, and did some amazing support tricks inside of combat. I started to realize just how powerful support casters are the first time she dropped a successful Faerie Fire. Very potent.

So I want to emulate that a little bit, especially since it looks like, right now, I'll be the only full caster in the party.

These are set in stone: I understand Sorc is sort of built to be a blaster and not ideally suited for support/control like a Druid or Cleric would be, but I still want to play it. I also understand that Divine Soul would probably be a perfect origin for the Cleric spells but I really want to play a Wild Magic Sorc, so I'm not changing my mind on that either. I'm also not interested in multiclassing.

I understand that by making those two choices, I've already stepped a little outside of pure optimizing. I know some of you will be a bit boggled that I'm trying to play a support Sorc yet not wanting to take the Origin built for support. What can I say, me and my DM are really excited for the Wild Magic.

So within those confines that I'm not willing to budge on, I'd like your advice/general Sorc strategy you've used. My thoughts so far, though I'm open and willing to have my mind changed:

ASIs/Feats: I don't see any feats that really stick out for a Sorc. They seem remarkably self sufficient. I think I'd just be better off maxing Charisma ASAP, then going for dex for AC or Con for help with concentration. Warcaster is a waste as I'm not planning on setting foot anywhere near combat. I don't really need any of the Resilient saves except maybe Dex since they come up a lot (but Tides of Chaos will help with that). I'm kind of considering Lightly Armored just because I have a hard time imagining going without armor at all (since I've never done that before) and I don't want to burn a spell slot just for mage armor when that slot could be better spent on assisting an ally, but I don't think it's worth it. The only feat that seems really worth while is Alert to try to get control spells on the battlefield before anybody even moves, but I'd honestly just rather max Cha and Dex. Open to feedback here.

Metamagic: First and foremost, I plan on stockpiling most of the my Sorc points for spell slots, as I want to cast often to try and trigger Wild Surge more frequently. That being said, my first two Meta choices are Twin and Careful. I primarily want to twin buff spells on party members for double the fun, like twin Enlarge on the Barb and Fighter, Enhance Ability on anybody on the front line if a lot of saving throws are coming up, plus that 2d6 temporary hp is nice, and nobody can underestimate twin invisibility on the Rogue and another clever party member. When we finally get 3rd level spells, twin Haste is going to be a favorite trick of mine, along with fly. The debuff potential is also strong, such as with Twin Slow, but I want to focus on helping my allies and throwing solid control spells rather than debuffing. I'll also probably reserve Sorc points and my 4th level spell slot to Twin Polymorph when things get particularly tough. Nothing says helping your allies like turning them into Giant Apes when things are looking grim. I'm really looking forward to this moment.

Careful will be a panic button kind of thing. I would only use it if the frontline is getting swarmed by a bunch of smaller creatures or otherwise getting their butt kicked, where it would be better to eliminate enemies with AOE than to buff or support my allies. So I may not use it often; but I think it will be nice to have it as an option.

My third choice and probably level 10 pick is Distant, since of a lot of my good buffs are touch spells, so Twin Distant buffs let me get two allies on the frontline without getting in the fray, or at least gives me some flexibility so I don't have to be adjacent to both of them to use it.

Cantrips: Frostbite will be the name of the game here. I'm not worried about max DPS, so a d6 is fine. I currently DM a group with a Bard who loves to spam Vicious Mockery; I've seen how useful that disadvantage can be. This is similar but with a more common save and more damage. I'll take the tradeoff. Second pick is Acid Splash. I know, I know... But since I have so many cantrips I figured I could afford to take it. I like the idea of dealing a little AOE damage when the situation arises. Other picks are Prestidigitation and Mending.

Spell Choices: As you've seen, I plan on focusing on buff spells for my friends, and control spells. I'm mostly looking for what control spells you would all recommend. I really like the idea of Twinning Hold Person/Monster. I'll also keep a good AOE effect in my back pocket for when the occasion arises, and I really want Chaos Bolt mostly just because it looks so fun, but I know I have really limited options here so I would be willing to give it up for something exceptional. Counterspell is a must here.

General strategy: Open up combat with a Twin buff like Haste, invisibility, enlarge. Stick behind the meatshields, Frostbiting smaller enemies to give disadvantage, dropping control/debuff spells often. Twin Hold Spell or serious debuff when things get tough, or Careful drop a big AOE like Fireball when the frontline is getting swarmed. Every spell slot used should directly help my teammates, so no mage armor and no Shield unless it's looking particularly ugly.

[Xihirli]

Sounds like you have a grasp on the right tactics, I think you’re mostly good to go.
Quick note, though: casting a concentration spell while haste is up stuns the people you had buffed before. Just something to watch out for.

[KOLE]

Sounds like you have a grasp on the right tactics, I think you’re mostly good to go.
Quick note, though: casting a concentration spell while haste is up stuns the people you had buffed before. Just something to watch out for.
Thank you for that! I definitely didn't notice that.

Can anybody suggest a good AOE spell that benefits particularly well from Careful Metamagic? Web is great, but I'm not noticing more besides that. Considering dropping Careful and going with Distant.

[sophontteks]

Its a misnomer that sorcerers are built to be blasters. They are decent blasters. They are top notch supports.

Now, that said, in my own post about wild sorcerers, I opted against twinned (and support in general) because losing concentration is just too big of a problem for a caster that wants to be in the action. But I still think its viable. If you are going to use twinned, you'll want to be casting that haste on yourself so that you can use that extra action defensively. If you get hit and fail concentration two of your party members lose their turn.

Metamagic

Twinned is super expensive. Twinning enhance ability is a bit too pricey for what its worth. You can only really afford to twin something once per day early on, so you wanna make it really impactful. Consider instead picking up enlarge/reduce. Giving both your frontliners +1d4 and advantage on strength is much better IMO and can't be done by upcasting the spell. Another perk of enlarge/reduce is that it works on objects. This leads to a ton of shenanagans to a creative mind. Twinning hold person is..ok. But you risk dumping all your metamagic into something that could easily be resisted by both monsters.

I ultimately elected against twinned for my wild sorcerer because it was too expensive. I risk losing concentration with a wild surge, and I wild sorcerers have their own metamagic called "Bend luck" that also isn't cheap.

I'd suggest against careful. First, just because its too weak. Second because you aren't picking spells that would work well with it. Instead of paying for a ripoff evocation wizard ability, take empower. Its +20% damage on average, but the real perk is turning a bad fireball into a good one. Good use of it can double or triple your damage. Pretty economical, and that's a priority since you'll be burning your metamagic.

But, for a support, I recommend subtle spell. With subtle you can cast spells in plain sight and they appear as if they are natural (or supernatural) phenomena not related to your party. Combine this effect with something like phantasmal force and you'll see the true power of a sorcerer.

Heres a great guide on metamagics that can say more then I ever could:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxHRu80oFd2iSkNLeVBISzZxMzQ/view

wild sorcerer
Talk to your DM before playing this. If you didn't notice, all the wild surge rolls happen at the DMs desecration. This is neigh unplayable without discussing things before hand. Your DM is too busy to tell you when to roll. Try to get him to let you roll after every spell and leave it at that. You'll have advantage constantly, so make sure to take advantage of it.

EDIT:
Careful only effects the first round of saves, so on things like web, it will not work on round 2. Its an OK metamagic, but definitely on the lower end.

[Citan]

Hey everyone,

So I want to emulate that a little bit, especially since it looks like, right now, I'll be the only full caster in the party.

These are set in stone: I understand Sorc is sort of built to be a blaster and not ideally suited for support/control like a Druid or Cleric would be, but I still want to play it. I also understand that Divine Soul would probably be a perfect origin for the Cleric spells but I really want to play a Wild Magic Sorc, so I'm not changing my mind on that either. I'm also not interested in multiclassing.

I understand that by making those two choices, I've already stepped a little outside of pure optimizing. I know some of you will be a bit boggled that I'm trying to play a support Sorc yet not wanting to take the Origin built for support. What can I say, me and my DM are really excited for the Wild Magic.

So within those confines that I'm not willing to budge on, I'd like your advice/general Sorc strategy you've used. My thoughts so far, though I'm open and willing to have my mind changed:

ASIs/Feats: I don't see any feats that really stick out for a Sorc. They seem remarkably self sufficient. I think I'd just be better off maxing Charisma ASAP, then going for dex for AC or Con for help with concentration. Warcaster is a waste as I'm not planning on setting foot anywhere near combat. I don't really need any of the Resilient saves except maybe Dex since they come up a lot (but Tides of Chaos will help with that). I'm kind of considering Lightly Armored just because I have a hard time imagining going without armor at all (since I've never done that before) and I don't want to burn a spell slot just for mage armor when that slot could be better spent on assisting an ally, but I don't think it's worth it. The only feat that seems really worth while is Alert to try to get control spells on the battlefield before anybody even moves, but I'd honestly just rather max Cha and Dex. Open to feedback here.

Metamagic: First and foremost, I plan on stockpiling most of the my Sorc points for spell slots, as I want to cast often to try and trigger Wild Surge more frequently. That being said, my first two Meta choices are Twin and Careful. I primarily want to twin buff spells on party members for double the fun, like twin Enlarge on the Barb and Fighter, Enhance Ability on anybody on the front line if a lot of saving throws are coming up, plus that 2d6 temporary hp is nice, and nobody can underestimate twin invisibility on the Rogue and another clever party member. When we finally get 3rd level spells, twin Haste is going to be a favorite trick of mine, along with fly. The debuff potential is also strong, such as with Twin Slow, but I want to focus on helping my allies and throwing solid control spells rather than debuffing. I'll also probably reserve Sorc points and my 4th level spell slot to Twin Polymorph when things get particularly tough. Nothing says helping your allies like turning them into Giant Apes when things are looking grim. I'm really looking forward to this moment.

Careful will be a panic button kind of thing. I would only use it if the frontline is getting swarmed by a bunch of smaller creatures or otherwise getting their butt kicked, where it would be better to eliminate enemies with AOE than to buff or support my allies. So I may not use it often; but I think it will be nice to have it as an option.

My third choice and probably level 10 pick is Distant, since of a lot of my good buffs are touch spells, so Twin Distant buffs let me get two allies on the frontline without getting in the fray, or at least gives me some flexibility so I don't have to be adjacent to both of them to use it.

Cantrips: Frostbite will be the name of the game here. I'm not worried about max DPS, so a d6 is fine. I currently DM a group with a Bard who loves to spam Vicious Mockery; I've seen how useful that disadvantage can be. This is similar but with a more common save and more damage. I'll take the tradeoff. Second pick is Acid Splash. I know, I know... But since I have so many cantrips I figured I could afford to take it. I like the idea of dealing a little AOE damage when the situation arises. Other picks are Prestidigitation and Mending.

Spell Choices: As you've seen, I plan on focusing on buff spells for my friends, and control spells. I'm mostly looking for what control spells you would all recommend. I really like the idea of Twinning Hold Person/Monster. I'll also keep a good AOE effect in my back pocket for when the occasion arises, and I really want Chaos Bolt mostly just because it looks so fun, but I know I have really limited options here so I would be willing to give it up for something exceptional. Counterspell is a must here.

General strategy: Open up combat with a Twin buff like Haste, invisibility, enlarge. Stick behind the meatshields, Frostbiting smaller enemies to give disadvantage, dropping control/debuff spells often. Twin Hold Spell or serious debuff when things get tough, or Careful drop a big AOE like Fireball when the frontline is getting swarmed. Every spell slot used should directly help my teammates, so no mage armor and no Shield unless it's looking particularly ugly.
Hi!

Ok so on the bolded parts...
1. Sadly you understand wrong. Sorcerer is not at all more a blaster than a controller/buffer/whatever, you can build it to be great in whatever way.

2. If you want to spend time buffing primarily, then bumping CHA is not at all your priority. However, getting Inspiring Leader is: those THP may not seem much but it adds up over the day. And later if you're the only caster I'd rather suggest picking Ritual Caster Wizard if possible, many great rituals to get there.

Besides that this seems good enough to be efficient while having fun. Since you seem to enjoy Wild Surge's randomness... :)

[sophontteks]

The real trick is gonna be playing around wild sorcerer as a buffer/controller.
On the plus side. Counterspell is going to be a very strong pick. It calls for an ability check, and wild sorcerers can give themselves advantage on those. Advantage on counterspell will probably make you the best counterspell user in the game. For kicks, with subtle not only can you make your spells uncounterable, you can also counterspell without the enemy knowing :smallbiggrin:

The same thing goes for telekinesis. Telekinesis is an ability check. You'll can cast it with advantage. Subtle casting telekinesis is even better. Imagine using it in public without consequence.

On the down side. A wild surge could break your concentration. Don't forget that you can give yourself advantage on concentration checks as well! You are guaranteed to have one ready after a wild surge.

[Skyblaze]

FYI, Slow is an AoE spell. Can't be twinned.

[EvilAnagram]

Careful works well with Web, but only on the first turn according to Crawford. Otherwise, it doesn't fit many of your spell choices.

Your choices and strategies are great, though I think it's important to plan for an egress when things decide to attack you whether or not you're on the front line. Additionally, you should pay attention to Bend Luck and Tides of Chaos. BL is basically a Wild Sorcerer metamagic for manipulating saving throws (right up your alley), and ToC will make it easier for you to surge. I use them both constantly in my weekly game.

For feats, Magic Initiate is a great choice. Pick Bard and take Vicious Mockery and either Dissonant Whispers or Faerie Fire. Vicious Mockery targets Wisdom instead of Constitution, which makes it more effective than Frostbite against bruisers. DW and FF are both awesome spells for your approach.

Have fun! You seem to have thought it out thoroughly.

[sophontteks]

Your choices and strategies are great, though I think it's important to plan for an egress when things decide to attack you whether or not you're on the front line. Additionally, you should pay attention to Bend Luck and Tides of Chaos. BL is basically a Wild Sorcerer metamagic for manipulating saving throws (right up your alley), and ToC will make it easier for you to surge. I use them both constantly in my weekly game.

BL also costs 2 metamagics and that's going to be a big problem if you plan to use twinned.

[KOLE]

Twinned is super expensive. Twinning enhance ability is a bit too pricey for what its worth. You can only really afford to twin something once per day early on, so you wanna make it really impactful. Consider instead picking up enlarge/reduce. Giving both your frontliners +1d4 and advantage on strength is much better IMO and can't be done by upcasting the spell. Another perk of enlarge/reduce is that it works on objects. This leads to a ton of shenanagans to a creative mind. Twinning hold person is..ok. But you risk dumping all your metamagic into something that could easily be resisted by both monsters.


'd suggest against careful. First, just because its too weak. Second because you aren't picking spells that would work well with it. Instead of paying for a ripoff evocation wizard ability, take empower. Its +20% damage on average, but the real perk is turning a bad fireball into a good one. Good use of it can double or triple your damage. Pretty economical, and that's a priority since you'll be burning your metamagic.

Heres a great guide on metamagics that can say more then I ever could:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxHRu80oFd2iSkNLeVBISzZxMzQ/view

wild sorcerer
Talk to your DM before playing this.

I appreciate your insight, but I'm curious, how do Wild Surges risk concentration? Is there something I'm missing? Or are you talking about some of the effects dealing damage to the caster? You seem to be implying that everytime a Wild Surge happens concentration can be lost. I'm AFB right now so I can't follow up on that.

I know Twin is expensive, but I'm sort of building around it, so I hope I can accomodate it.

I see what you mean about Careful being weak, considering droping it. I don't know how often Subtle will come up, but I see your point on its potency. I'll keep it in mind.

Thanks for that guide, by the way, it's been very helpful.

I have talked it over with my DM and he's as excited about it as I am. We've houseruled it so I will roll for surge every time I cast a first level or higher spell. If I use tides of chaos, the rang for Surge will increase by 1 every time I roll and don't trigger a surge, until I surge and regain tides of Chaos. We think it's fairly balanced up front but will play test and tweak it throughout the run. He's also implied he may be using third party wild magic tables, and tells me if I surge, he'll do the rolling. Excited to see what he'll come up with.


Hi!
2. If you want to spend time buffing primarily, then bumping CHA is not at all your priority. However, getting Inspiring Leader is: those THP may not seem much but it adds up over the day. And later if you're the only caster I'd rather suggest picking Ritual Caster Wizard if possible, many great rituals to get there.


SOLID TIP! Thanks for that, I think that will be my first ASI.


The real trick is gonna be playing around wild sorcerer as a buffer/controller.
On the plus side. Counterspell is going to be a very strong pick. It calls for an ability check, and wild sorcerers can give themselves advantage on those. Advantage on counterspell will probably make you the best counterspell user in the game. For kicks, with subtle not only can you make your spells uncounterable, you can also counterspell without the enemy knowing :smallbiggrin:

The same thing goes for telekinesis. Telekinesis is an ability check. You'll can cast it with advantage. Subtle casting telekinesis is even better. Imagine using it in public without consequence.

On the down side. A wild surge could break your concentration. Don't forget that you can give yourself advantage on concentration checks as well! You are guaranteed to have one ready after a wild surge.

Still confused about how Wild Surge can break concentration. Is it just if the surge causes me to take damage? I'm AFB, did I misread something? Do I make a concentration check every time I surge?

Also! Thank you for the tip about Telekinesis and Counterspell being ability checks! Such a great use for Tides of Chaos!


FYI, Slow is an AoE spell. Can't be twinned.

You're right! I thought Slow was the mirror image of Haste, I was mistaken.


Your choices and strategies are great, though I think it's important to plan for an egress when things decide to attack you whether or not you're on the front line. Additionally, you should pay attention to Bend Luck and Tides of Chaos. BL is basically a Wild Sorcerer metamagic for manipulating saving throws (right up your alley), and ToC will make it easier for you to surge. I use them both constantly in my weekly game.

For feats, Magic Initiate is a great choice. Pick Bard and take Vicious Mockery and either Dissonant Whispers or Faerie Fire. Vicious Mockery targets Wisdom instead of Constitution, which makes it more effective than Frostbite against bruisers. DW and FF are both awesome spells for your approach.

Have fun! You seem to have thought it out thoroughly.

Thank you for your kind words. I'm going to keep shield on hand JIC- but I'm a big believer in team work. I'm not going to plan on being completely independent. If things go wrong, I'm going to hope the frontliners will be there to help!


BL also costs 2 metamagics and that's going to be a big problem if you plan to use twinned.

Point taken.

Thanks everyone for your tips and kind words. Sorry it took me so long to reply- crazy week at work!

[Vogie]

I'd probably want a 2 level Celestial warlock dip. You'd get a small amount more cantrips, some at-will 1st level spells, and 2 Short-Rest Spell slots that you can either transform into sorc points or cast your utility spells with.

If Homebrew is allowed, check my sig - I have a Support Sorcerer archetype that allows you to use your Sorc points and metamagic through the help action.

[Man_Over_Game]

I appreciate your insight, but I'm curious, how do Wild Surges risk concentration? Is there something I'm missing? Or are you talking about some of the effects dealing damage to the caster? You seem to be implying that everytime a Wild Surge happens concentration can be lost. I'm AFB right now so I can't follow up on that.

You're correct on that. Spells cast via Wild Surge do not eat up concentration, even if these spells normally do use your concentration, and last for the full duration.

However, damage (or other distracting effects) can cause you to lose your concentration.

For example, 41-42 is to change you into a potted plant for 1 turn. 31-32 is to be temporarily teleported to the Astral Plane. 13-14 casts Confusion centered on you.

None of these things inherently have reason to break Concentration via damage or requiring Concentration themselves, but they might distract you enough to force a roll.