draconic polymorph and hit points

[Zhepna]

Hi,

it's the first time our group will use draconic polymorph. We have a hard time to determine the hit point of a wizard using this spell to become a war troll.

In wotc website, war troll have Hit Dice: 12d8+84 (138 hp) and Con 29

Draconic polymorph says: your Constitution is the average for the creature +2

So Constitution become 31 but we don't know what the total hp will become.

Thanks for the information and have a nice day.

[Sto]

Health will increase by 1 per hit die.

[noob]

Actually the wizard keeps the same hit point total as when he is a wizard since polymorph does not override the fact alter self does not change the hit points of the caster and "works as alter self but"
So the wizard keeps the hitpoints he had before casting polymorph he also keeps his hit dice and his base saving throws and his base attack bonus but his constitution changes it is just that this change to constitution does not change his hit points(but it still change his fortitude saves).
So basically polymorph gives you a lot of the stats of the creature but is not at all "replace your hit dice by those of the creature you turn into"
Draconic polymorph works like polymorph so again it does not change the hit point total.

Well yes I did read the polymorph lines a whole lot of times because it is full of "as X but" and of other kind of exceptions which makes guessing what you get and do not get hard.

Still the +2 constitution is really great even if it does not boost hp since it helps against attacks against that targets constitution (such as some poisons and the attacks of varied undead such as vampires) and it also means you fail less saves against most save or die which are based on fortitude saving throws.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Polymorph mimics Alter Self, and Alter Self includes the following: "Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same."

Granted if he's taken damage he heals as though he rested for a night per Polymorph, so he would regain one hit point per character level up to his normal maximum.

The increased Constitution score would improve his Fortitude save, Concentration checks, and anything else Con-based, but not his hit point total.

[Cruiser1]

Health will increase by 1 per hit die.
This. Yes, it's true that Alter Self never changes your hit point total. Yes, it's true that (Draconic) Polymorph is based on Alter Self except where stated differently, and therefore Polymorph doesn't directly change your hit point total either. However, Polymorph can and does change your CON, and CON has a well-defined effect on your hit point total, namely health increases by HD for each change in CON modifier. Polymorph changing your CON is a stated difference between it and Alter Self, and therefore Polymorph changes in CON are allowed to affect your hit point total in the standard manner.

[eggynack]

This. Yes, it's true that Alter Self never changes your hit point total. Yes, it's true that (Draconic) Polymorph is based on Alter Self except where stated differently, and therefore Polymorph doesn't directly change your hit point total either. However, Polymorph can and does change your CON, and CON has a well-defined effect on your hit point total, namely health increases by HD for each change in CON modifier. Polymorph changing your CON is a stated difference between it and Alter Self, and therefore Polymorph changes in CON are allowed to affect your hit point total in the standard manner.
Nothing in the text of polymorph directly changes the text that keeps your HP the same. Thus, regardless of any changes in constitution, it can only be concluded that your HP stays the same.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Nothing in the text of polymorph directly changes the text that keeps your HP the same. Thus, regardless of any changes in constitution, it can only be concluded that your HP stays the same.

From the text for Alter Self:


You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same.

In context, one could reasonably infer that your base stats don't change (level/hit dice, base attack bonus, base saves, etc.), but that derived stats do if as in Polymorph your ability scores change. So your base attack bonus doesn't change, but if your dexterity increases, you'll be able to hit things better with a ranged touch attack. Similarly, Alter Self doesn't modify your hit dice, nor your constitution, and hence your hit points are unchanged. But if your Con temporarily shifts, whether through polymorph or through a barbarian's rage, then your hit points do as well, by one point per hit die per point of difference in Con modifier. These wouldn't be temporary hit points, though, just like rage. So if you sustained heavy damage and then had your polymorph dispelled before you were healed, you could end up quite dead when your Con drops back down. But yeah, even if you don't accept this ruling, minimally your fortitude and reflex saves (not base, but total) shift, as they're clearly derived stats.

[Crake]

From the text for Alter Self:



In context, one could reasonably infer that your base stats don't change (level/hit dice, base attack bonus, base saves, etc.), but that derived stats do if as in Polymorph your ability scores change. So your base attack bonus doesn't change, but if your dexterity increases, you'll be able to hit things better with a ranged touch attack. Similarly, Alter Self doesn't modify your hit dice, nor your constitution, and hence your hit points are unchanged. But if your Con temporarily shifts, whether through polymorph or through a barbarian's rage, then your hit points do as well, by one point per hit die per point of difference in Con modifier. These wouldn't be temporary hit points, though, just like rage. So if you sustained heavy damage and then had your polymorph dispelled before you were healed, you could end up quite dead when your Con drops back down. But yeah, even if you don't accept this ruling, minimally your fortitude and reflex saves (not base, but total) shift, as they're clearly derived stats.

We can talk about inferences all day long, but the fact is, it's written in black and white that hit points do not change. That was not something that needed to be written, but it was, so without any contradicting language, the rule holds across all of the inheriting spells.

[SLOTHRPG95]

We can talk about inferences all day long, but the fact is, it's written in black and white that hit points do not change. That was not something that needed to be written, but it was, so without any contradicting language, the rule holds across all of the inheriting spells.

We don't need to talk about inferences all day long, but we do need to talk about them. This thread wasn't originally some RAW-in-a-vacuum question, but rather a practical question impacting a real campaign. Hence, I see no problem talking about RAI. Yes, it's written in black and white in the text of Alter Self that hit points do not change, but that's because neither hit dice nor constitution change. The fact that it's called out explicitly isn't some nod to differing circumstances (i.e. shifting Con) for Polymorph. Rather, it's just explanatory text to make your (the user's) life easier. But see? Even this discussion is one about designer intent.

Furthermore, if one were to take strict inheritance as a rule, notwithstanding reasons not to, then as per Alter Self, "[t]he new form must be within one size category of your normal size." There's nothing in the text of Polymorph that explicitly lifts that restriction. But cf. "[y]ou can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine," from the text of Polymorph. So either this is saying that bizarrely, a Fine caster can halve their size with Alter Self or with (if humanoid) Reduce Person but not with Polymorph, or the inference we can draw is that the inheritance isn't so strict, i.e. there's no problem with an Elf Wizard polymorphing themself into, say, a Grig. As a matter of practical play in a campaign, I'll take the latter option, thanks. Similarly, if someone asks my opinion on the matter in the context of practical gameplay, I'll give that as my answer.

[Crake]

We don't need to talk about inferences all day long, but we do need to talk about them. This thread wasn't originally some RAW-in-a-vacuum question, but rather a practical question impacting a real campaign. Hence, I see no problem talking about RAI. Yes, it's written in black and white in the text of Alter Self that hit points do not change, but that's because neither hit dice nor constitution change. The fact that it's called out explicitly isn't some nod to differing circumstances (i.e. shifting Con) for Polymorph. Rather, it's just explanatory text to make your (the user's) life easier. But see? Even this discussion is one about designer intent.

Furthermore, if one were to take strict inheritance as a rule, notwithstanding reasons not to, then as per Alter Self, "[t]he new form must be within one size category of your normal size." There's nothing in the text of Polymorph that explicitly lifts that restriction. But cf. "[y]ou can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine," from the text of Polymorph. So either this is saying that bizarrely, a Fine caster can halve their size with Alter Self or with (if humanoid) Reduce Person but not with Polymorph, or the inference we can draw is that the inheritance isn't so strict, i.e. there's no problem with an Elf Wizard polymorphing themself into, say, a Grig. As a matter of practical play in a campaign, I'll take the latter option, thanks. Similarly, if someone asks my opinion on the matter in the context of practical gameplay, I'll give that as my answer.

Everything you just stated is speculation. We have no way to know one way or the other, and it's not like there's any sort of indication to point either way. Whether it's RAW-in-a-vacuum or not isn't relevant to the point either, you have 2 options: play by the rules, or houserule it because you don't like the rules, but either way, the rules are as they are.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that rules sometimes don't match their intentions, but something like this, making that leap of logic is not acceptable, as nothing in any of the spells' text suggests that it should be any other way.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Player's Handbook II clarifies this on page 95:
"The target retains its own hit points."

The Rules Compendium on page 122 has that exact same verbiage:
"The target retains its own hit points."


There is absolutely nothing within the Polymorph-type spells that even suggests your maximum hit points could change as a result of the spell's effects. The clear RAW has been in Alter Self from the start, and this has been repeatedly clarified as the rules were revised throughout the years.


There has been some confusion in the past. In the Rules of the Game (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg) articles Polymorphing (Part One-Four) from 2004 it does say your base hit points stay the same, but a change in Con score changes your bonus hit points. However, this was further clarified more recently in the articles Polymorphing Revisited (Part One-Four) from 2006, which goes back to stating your maximum hit points are unchanged by the spell's effects. That was mistakenly put forward fourteen years ago, and it was cleared up over twelve years ago. I think it's time to put this argument to rest.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Player's Handbook II clarifies this on page 95:
"The target retains its own hit points."

The Rules Compendium on page 122 has that exact same verbiage:
"The target retains its own hit points."


There is absolutely nothing within the Polymorph-type spells that even suggests your maximum hit points could change as a result of the spell's effects. The clear RAW has been in Alter Self from the start, and this has been repeatedly clarified as the rules were revised throughout the years.


There has been some confusion in the past. In the Rules of the Game (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg) articles Polymorphing (Part One-Four) from 2004 it does say your base hit points stay the same, but a change in Con score changes your bonus hit points. However, this was further clarified more recently in the articles Polymorphing Revisited (Part One-Four) from 2006, which goes back to stating your maximum hit points are unchanged by the spell's effects. That was mistakenly put forward fourteen years ago, and it was cleared up over twelve years ago. I think it's time to put this argument to rest.

Thanks for the additional citations! I (clearly) wasn't familiar with this, hence my previous post. However, I do find it somewhat telling that even the folks at WoTC have had the same sort of confusion over this.

[Cruiser1]

Player's Handbook II clarifies this on page 95:
"The target retains its own hit points."

The Rules Compendium on page 122 has that exact same verbiage:
"The target retains its own hit points."The text above is only describing spells from the new Polymorph subschool. Interestingly, the text of the Polymorph subschool doesn't apply to old spells Alter Self, Polymorph, and spells based on them (even though those spells technically have the Polymorph subschool now). See http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?42367-Polymorph-subschool for details.

So we're back to the issue of whether Alter Self's clause of "the target retains its own hit points" overrides new effects from Polymorph that can potentially change health, such as CON increasing. It does seem weird and confusing that a character can have CON increases from various sources (such as items, buffs, and polymorph effects) but one potentially needs to keep track of which CON increases are allowed to affect health in the standard manner and which aren't. :smallyuk:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The text above is only describing spells from the new Polymorph subschool. Interestingly, the text of the Polymorph subschool doesn't apply to old spells Alter Self, Polymorph, and spells based on them (even though those spells technically have the Polymorph subschool now). See http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?42367-Polymorph-subschool for details.

So we're back to the issue of whether Alter Self's clause of "the target retains its own hit points" overrides new effects from Polymorph that can potentially change health, such as CON increasing. It does seem weird and confusing that a character can have CON increases from various sources (such as items, buffs, and polymorph effects) but one potentially needs to keep track of which CON increases are allowed to affect health in the standard manner and which aren't. :smallyuk:

1. The Polymorph subschool clearly shows that by RAI, that type of spell does not modify the target's maximum HP.

2. Alter Self clearly says the target's hit points do not change as a result of that spell. This applies to both their base hp from hit dice, and their bonus hp from Constitution. The only exception Polymorph makes to this is that they heal as though they rested for a night, thus recovering some lost hp, but not modifying their maximum hp. RAW, the target's maximum hp does not change, and their current hp only change based on what they would recover from resting for a night.

By both RAW and RAI, no version of Polymorph will change the target's maximum hit points.

[Zhepna]

Thanks a LOT to everybody. As a new player, your detailed answers are really appreciated.

[Cruiser1]

1. The Polymorph subschool clearly shows that by RAI, that type of spell does not modify the target's maximum HP.

2. Alter Self clearly says the target's hit points do not change as a result of that spell. The only exception Polymorph makes to this is that they heal as though they rested for a night

By both RAW and RAI, no version of Polymorph will change the target's maximum hit points.

Alter Self indeed says the target's hit points do not change as a result of the spell. Polymorph behaves like Alter Self except where stated differently. Polymorph (unlike Alter Self) states it changes the target's CON (which is again a behavior different from Alter Self). Therefore, standard rules for changing CON apply, and casting Polymorph adjusts maximum hp in the standard manner.

The fact that the Polymorph subschool now technically applies to Polymorph doesn't change anything either. The description of the Polymorph subschool in PHB2 says, "however, note that the spells’ existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool." Therefore the clause of "the target retains its own hit points" from the Polymorph subschool doesn't affect or act as a new limitation to the classic Polymorph spell either. This was confirmed by Customer Service (even though Customer Service isn't a source of RAW, and can only indicate RAI).

The whole reason why the Polymorph subschool was added in the first place is because WotC eventually realized that Polymorph by RAW is very powerful, and characters can polymorph into things like Firbolgs and gain many hp from a much higher CON modifier. WotC instead wants players to use the newer spells such as Trollshape which grant a specific number of temporary hp, which is more easily balanced. But for some reason they didn't nerf the original Alter Self / Polymorph line (although some players think they should have).

By both RAW and RAI, all versions of Polymorph (Polymorph, Draconic Polymorph, and Shapechange) will change the target's maximum hit points.

[eggynack]

Alter Self indeed says the target's hit points do not change as a result of the spell. Polymorph behaves like Alter Self except where stated differently. Polymorph (unlike Alter Self) states it changes the target's CON (which is again a behavior different from Alter Self). Therefore, standard rules for changing CON apply, and casting Polymorph adjusts maximum hp in the standard manner.
That it changes constitution is indeed a way polymorph differs from alter self. This does not, however, imply a change to alter self's HP rule to any extent. This is not a respect in which polymorph states differently. Therefore, the standard rules for changing constitution cannot apply in the context of HP. Because the rules say that HP does not change. You are wrong.

[noob]

Especially you should know that a few editions ago changing constitution did not change the hit point total retroactively(but it would increase the hp of the next levels)
So it is normal that they think "Changing constitution does not change hp" because it does usually not do that in the varied editions of dnd especially if it is specified that your hit point total stays the same.

So it says your hit point total stays the same and it says your constitution changes but in the mind of the creators changing constitution does not change hit points.
If there was an example of what polymorph does it would clarify the situation.
Can someone get out a campaign where polymorph is used by wotc?

[Deophaun]

Can someone get out a campaign where polymorph is used by wotc?
Have you seen the example builds WotC includes in the books? They don't know how their own stuff works even while they're writing it.

And yeah, I don't get this whole "the spell explicitly says it doesn't do x, so that must mean it does x" line of reasoning. Constitution does more than increase hit points, folks.

[Remuko]

The clause says the spell doesnt increase your HP. That is correct it doesnt. But if your CON increases, your con modifier does change your HP. This isnt the spell, but your con score/mod changing your hp, not the spell, and thus the clause doesnt apply. RAW.

[eggynack]

The clause says the spell doesnt increase your HP. That is correct it doesnt. But if your CON increases, your con modifier does change your HP. This isnt the spell, but your con score/mod changing your hp, not the spell, and thus the clause doesnt apply. RAW.
Form changing doesn't alter your HP. If changing your form changes your con which changes your HP, then that's your form changing altering your HP. There is no limit on this rule to only the most basic and direct alteration. This honestly doesn't seem all that complicated. The game says your HP remains the same. You're saying it doesn't remain the same, for whatever reason. You're wrong. Because the game says your HP remains the same.

[RoboEmperor]

Form changing doesn't alter your HP. If changing your form changes your con which changes your HP, then that's your form changing altering your HP. There is no limit on this rule to only the most basic and direct alteration. This honestly doesn't seem all that complicated. The game says your HP remains the same. You're saying it doesn't remain the same, for whatever reason. You're wrong. Because the game says your HP remains the same.

This guy is correct.

[GrayDeath]

Agreed.

Although they could have avoided a lot of arguments if they had instead written: "None of the changes the spell imparts on the Target have any effect on its HP".

But then again, WotC ^^