Healing Spirit is fine RAW

[Tzun]

I replied to an old post about Healing Spirit and was told that was against forum rules so I decided to start a new thread.

I was doing some research for my new ranger character that I will be playing in a new campaign and came across some controversy concerning Healing Spirit. The issue appears to be with the perceived OPness of this spell when used out of combat. It seems that people think this spell can heal multiple characters 10d6 hp when OOC. But I argue that people are misinterpreting this spell. This kind of spell cries out for quantasizing (I think I just made this word up) time out of combat just like time is quantasized during combat. One round is 6 seconds. Therefore this spell heals 10d6 hp total period. 10d6 to one character or 1d6 to ten different characters and everything in between, but not an infinite number of characters healed for 10d6 each. Is it reasonable to think that you can run a million people through this thing and all get healed 10d6 in just one minute.

In this light I think healing spirit is fine RAW and not OP at all.

[JNAProductions]

You say it’s fine RAW, then argue RAI.

That’s not how this works. By RAW, you can do it to as many people as go through it.

[NaughtyTiger]

Thank you for starting a new thread.

In combat:

a PC gains 1d6 when she moves into the space for the first time.
so Hera can walk through, gain 1d6, and keep moving and attack.
then Thorag can walk through, gain 1d6, and keep moving and attack.
Balog can drag unconscious Tim through. Balog gets 1d6 and Tim the unconscious gains 1d6 and is fighting fit. Tim can attack on his turn.

all in 1 round.

Out of combat:
you created rules out of thin air (and words) to say that only 1 PC can move through a space per 6 seconds out of combat.

[Spiritchaser]

I don’t necessarily think it’s wrong to have powerful OOC healing, but having it disproportionately available to two classes feels incomplete.

[Galithar]

"Until the spell ends, whenever you or a creature you can see moves into the spirit's space for the first time on a turn or start its turn there, you can cause the spirit to restore 1d6 hit points to that creature (no action required). The spirit can't heal constructs or undead."

This says RAW that however many people can move through it get healed 1d6. A creature can move through it once on each turn that it has movement. By RAW I can actually heal these creatures 20d6.

Assume party members wizard, druid, and 1-10 (for a massive party of 12 just to make a point)

Combat starts, blah blah blah, one enemy is left alive. My wizard casts hold person, and let's assume the creature never makes their save. I now have one full minute of combat I can't be attacked.

The druid casts healing Spirit. And walks through it with his movement healing for 1d6.
Character 1 moves through the spirit healing for 1d6 and readies and action to move when character 2 moves.
Character 2 moves through the spirit healing for 1d6, triggering character 1's readied action who now moves through the spirit with a readied move to heal for 1d6 again since it is now a new turn (character 2's turn in place of character 1's) character 2 readies their action to move when character 3 moves...

Repeat through all characters and do it again for ten rounds before finally killing your enemy.

During this time characters 1-10 would be and to heal 20d6 each by RAW. The druid would heal 19d6 (no readied action round one) and the wizard 18d6 (no healing round one because he was first in initiative)

Total healing of 237d6 off one level 2 spell...

Now if I can do this RAW in combat, by what logic could you prevent me from doing it out of combat?

[Tzun]

Oh wow, now that I'm rereading it, I was the one misinterpreting. For some reason I thought you had to spend your turn in the 5ft square to be healed. Yeah that is a lot better than I initially thought.

[MaxWilson]

Oh wow, now that I'm rereading it, I was the one misinterpreting. For some reason I thought you had to spend your turn in the 5ft square to be healed. Yeah that is a lot better than I initially thought.

That is actually one way of fixing the cheese: make it heal only when you both start and end your turn inside.

It's still a best-in-class healing spell even with that fix, but at least it no longer rewards munchkin hijinks like grappling that don't fit the fluff. It makes *sense* that the healing spirit takes time to heal you.

Alternately you could make it heal on the caster's end of turn.

[guachi]

As DM, I house ruled that, out of combat, the caster can just divvy up 10d6 (cast as a 2nd level spell) to the other players in the party.

It's actually kind of fun as the caster hands out six-sided dice and the players discuss who needs what. RAW, the spell made every other type of healing unnecessary. The opposite of fun.

[ad_hoc]

Oh wow, now that I'm rereading it, I was the one misinterpreting. For some reason I thought you had to spend your turn in the 5ft square to be healed. Yeah that is a lot better than I initially thought.

It is written in the same format as the damage spells.

The problem is that creatures don't want to walk into the damage spells so it isn't a problem.

It is easy enough to just limit it to once per round. Then it's a fine spell.

[qube]

Now if I can do this RAW in combat, by what logic could you prevent me from doing it out of combat?RAW

there's no such thing as a "round", or "turn" (part of a round) out of combat.

IC, ther's something called the peasant railgun. (2000 commoners all ready their action to give item X to the next guy 5ft away, giving that object a speed of 10 000 ft / 6 seconds, or Mach 1.5)

OOC: your DM decides how fast that object moves ... but it probbably won't be Mach 1.5.
And with healing spirit, your DM decides how many people can move through a square per 6 seconds without bumping into eachother.

Logic

You abused the abstraction of combat to gain an illogical conclusion.
You then try to claim this conclusion (which uses the abstraction of combat as premise) should apply out of combat.
... Logically, the abstraction of combat doesn't apply out of combat
... Ergo, any reasoning wich uses it, automatically invalidates itself.

Or, RL example, You can make conclusions for earth, and assume the presence of gravity - but don't expect that your conclusion is automatically still valid when you're in outer space.

[Tanarii]

RAW

there's no such thing as a "round", or "turn" (part of a round) out of combat.You sure you want to tilt at that windmill? Someone tried for many pages in the last thread, and didn't have any success selling that point of view.

[Platypusbill]

RAW

there's no such thing as a "round", or "turn" (part of a round) out of combat.

IC, ther's something called the peasant railgun. (2000 commoners all ready their action to give item X to the next guy 5ft away, giving that object a speed of 10 000 ft / 6 seconds, or Mach 1.5)

OOC: your DM decides how fast that object moves ... but it probbably won't be Mach 1.5.
And with healing spirit, your DM decides how many people can move through a square per 6 seconds without bumping into eachother.

Logic

You abused the abstraction of combat to gain an illogical conclusion.
You then try to claim this conclusion (which uses the abstraction of combat as premise) should apply out of combat.
... Logically, the abstraction of combat doesn't apply out of combat
... Ergo, any reasoning wich uses it, automatically invalidates itself.

Or, RL example, You can make conclusions for earth, and assume the presence of gravity - but don't expect that your conclusion is automatically still valid when you're in outer space.

Of course a turn-based system where everything happens simultaneously within the narrative is going to cause illogical results from time to time. The peasant railgun is an extreme example because it involves 2000 people, while combat in D&D tends to feature maybe 10 or at most 20 creatures at a time. It isn't expected to make sense for very large groups like that.

Healing dozens or hundreds of people with Healing Spirit is possible RAW, basically as many as you can squeeze onto a grid where they still have enough speed to pass through the effect and not get in the way of the others in line. But that's not how it's intended to be used. It is, however, entirely possible that a small adventuring party could pass through the spirit in the space of a few seconds by essentially running in a ring through it, even though it looks silly. Out of combat, perhaps it could bestow its healing to the party by having them sit in a ring around it.

In any case, if I ever end up using Healing Spirit or DMing for a player who does it, I'd suggest a houserule to make the effect occur once per round (refreshing at the start of the caster's turn) or limit it to 10d6, with the spell ending once it's healed 10 times. Otherwise it just removes any sense of HP attrition over the course of an adventuring day. Even with the houserule, it's almost a straight upgrade to Prayer of Healing for smaller parties.

[qube]

(partially ninja'd)

You sure you want to tilt at that windmill? Someone tried for many pages in the last thread, and didn't have any success selling that point of view.How would that take many pages? RAW is RAW. Rules As Written.


The game organizes the chaos of combat into a cycle of rounds and turns
-- page 189

And then go further in explaining what they represent and how they work. But I have yet to find a witten quote that claims out of combat situations are also organized in cycles of rounds & turns. That, obviously, would be stupid, because these rules & concepts exist specifically to allow break down a 'fluid, chaotic' situation into organized steps - giving up the fluidness of realism for order.

The peasant railgun is the prime example of this: as IRL, passing an object around is a 'fluid' action; but in the abstraction of combat that's broken down, and thus abusable.

Likewise, moving around is a fluid action. If you ignore that, you can have a group of about 50 people* running through the same 5ft square, in 3 seconds, no problem what so ever, without any troube or risking or stumbeing on top of each other

* by move & readied dash they can do something twice in 6 seconds, and if the people who were close, move far away, while the people who were far move close, you can enlarge the area. And while the set-up is coFor them it's quite simple: as all they need to do when it's their turn, is to move through the spirit in the only free square they can reach


Oh, Not to mention ... if you always use combat rules, life will get quite strange as characters can never end their move in the same square as someone else.

[Kadesh]

Yes, correct. It is impossible to cast a spell requiring an action unless you have initiated combat. Don't derail the thread further, qube, it's wrong, and at best non sequitur.

[Contrast]

Yes, correct. It is impossible to cast a spell requiring an action unless you have initiated combat. Don't derail the thread further, qube, it's wrong, and at best non sequitur.

It might be more accurate to say 'It is up to the DM what things normally managed by the action system in combat can be used the same way out of combat'. As a DM I'm not going to tell you you can't run unless you punch someone because otherwise you can't take the Dash action. Casting spells will typically be fine. A rogue having an increased overland speed because they can dash twice a turn, probably not.

This is somewhat relevant for Healing Spirit because the question is 'is it reasonable for a small group of adventurers to stand in a circle and take turns stepping in and out of the centre'. This isn't anywhere near peasant railgun levels of shenanigans - most people do find this reasonable which is why the spell is so effective.

The game has a DM for a reason. If its proving a problem at your table, houserule it.

[qube]

Yes, correct. It is impossible to cast a spell requiring an action unless you have initiated combat.That's not what I said. You're denying the antecedent, and are contradicted EVEN by RAW.

For example, DMG RAW p253 points how a chase works, and while it uses actions and moves, unlike combat, in that framework, you can't just keep on dashing each turn (you start getting exhaution).

Unlike your interpretation of my argument, I'm saying that the framework of combat, isn't around out of combat. There will be another framework (be it chase, a narritive framework, or something symelar to combat ...). But there is no guarantee that the rules you abuse for Healing Spirit will be around in that framework. It's your DM who decides that. My argument in 4 words: different situation, different rules

And if your DM decides that, for example, you're in a narrative framework, and in it, it's nonsense that 50 people run through the same 5ft square in 3 seconds without stumbling, than that's the way it is.


Don't derail the thread further, qube*looks at thread title*


Healing Spirit is fine RAW

*looks at post*


talks about RAW
talks about healing spirit

I haven't got a clue why you think I'm derailing the thead.

[Malifice]

If you just HR it to the healing happening 'at the end of each of your turns including this one' or 'a creature that starts its turn in the space' and it works fine.

[Kadesh]

That's not what I said. You're denying the antecedent, and are contradicted EVEN by RAW.

For example, DMG RAW p253 points how a chase works, and while it uses actions and moves, unlike combat, in that framework, you can't just keep on dashing each turn (you start getting exhaution).

Unlike your interpretation of my argument, I'm saying that the framework of combat, isn't around out of combat. There will be another framework (be it chase, a narritive framework, or something symelar to combat ...). But there is no guarantee that the rules you abuse for Healing Spirit will be around in that framework. It's your DM who decides that. My argument in 4 words: different situation, different rules

And if your DM decides that, for example, you're in a narrative framework, and in it, it's nonsense that 50 people run through the same 5ft square in 3 seconds without stumbling, than that's the way it is.

*looks at thread title*


Healing Spirit is fine RAW

*looks at post*


talks about RAW
talks about healing spirit

I haven't got a clue why you think I'm derailing the thead.

Actions not taking place outside of combat are nothing to do with the thread, however. THAT is what I'm suggesting you stop derailing the thread over. I couldn't care less over whether you think that Healing Spirit is broken or not, I, as the arbiter of the rules in a game I run, feel free to houserule abuses out of the game - namely in this instance, it takes a Reaction for a character to receive the healing from this spell.

[NaughtyTiger]

The OP stated that his initial conclusion was based on a hurried read of the spell. Upon reread it is stronger than he thought.
Now I fear that this will quickly devolve into another 23 pages of arguments of logical fallacy.

Perhaps Qube should start a new threat about actions out of combat.


You sure you want to tilt at that windmill? Someone tried for many pages in the last thread, and didn't have any success selling that point of view.

I really like this statement.

[qube]

I, as the arbiter of the rules in a game I run, feel free to houserule abuses out of the game... Cool.

I couldn't care less over whether you think that Healing Spirit is broken or notWhere have I stated healing spirit is broken or not? I'm simply looking at how Healing Spirit works according to RAW.

As is, in RAW, there are different sets of rules for different situations. As evidenced by differnent rules for Combat & Chase. Ergo, you can not baselessly assume that the rules for combat still apply when combat is over. Ergo, looking at a spell out of combat, and with using the rules of combat, concluding that the spell is broken - is NOT a problem of the spell, or even RAW - but a problem that lies with the DM allowing it to be used as such. (or a DM not aware the rules of combat were never intended as system to be used in all situations outside of combat).

If you consider that dereailing the thread ... well, I don't. I consider it on topic. If you want to argue further about this, I suggest PMming me instead of derailing the thread by trying to start an argument wether I'm derailing it or not.

[Pex]

I'm not convinced lack of hit point attrition through the adventuring day is a bad thing. The bad guys are at full hit points for the non-first combat of the day. Why can't the PCs? It's not free healing. It uses up a 2nd level spell slot every time it is used. It's not a rest, so PCs do not get back resources used. It helps players feel better continuing the adventuring day without resting after every combat like a metagame morale boost. The cleric is relieved people stop demanding he heal them all the time.

[Tanarii]

I'm not convinced lack of hit point attrition through the adventuring day is a bad thing.
That's a valid point of view. I prefer an attrition model, but that's just me. (In fact 5e doesn't have enough of an attrition model for my preference.)

But the issue isn't that Healing Spirit meets that point of view. It's that it breaks the existing balance of resource cost to get to that point. Drastically. N*10d6 healing, where N is party members up to a limit of 6 (assuming 30 ft movement), is a huge increase in the healing value of a 2nd level spell slot resource.

And this makes it look like a design error. If the designers were intending to fix the balance of healing, they should have made that explicit and introduced a (preferably optional) spell that specifically did that, usable by all healing classes.
"Mega Heal: casing time one minute, usable only immediately after combat. Your party is instantly restored to full health. Add to Cleric, Bard, Druid, Paladin, and Ranger spell lists as a 2nd level spell."

[Dalebert]

RAW

there's no such thing as a "round", or "turn" (part of a round) out of combat.


Keeping up with rounds and turns is necessary in any time-sensitive situation or when ppl have a limited number of rounds to act, combat or otherwise. Having the benefits of a spell that lasts only 10 rounds is exactly such a case. Imagine the party just set off a trap with a timer. It's not combat. the technical usage "combat round" is broader than just actual combat.

[NaughtyTiger]

I'm not convinced lack of hit point attrition through the adventuring day is a bad thing. The bad guys are at full hit points for the non-first combat of the day. Why can't the PCs? It's not free healing. It uses up a 2nd level spell slot every time it is used. It's not a rest, so PCs do not get back resources used. It helps players feel better continuing the adventuring day without resting after every combat like a metagame morale boost. The cleric is relieved people stop demanding he heal them all the time.

It's not free, but it is really cheap healing out of combat.

Unlike most folks that are concerned about this spell, I worry more about it as really cheap in-combat healing.
Advantages of healing word for 1-2 rounds on 1-2 PCs make it very powerful. (when I have seen it in play, we get about 6d6 HP out of a 2nd level spell.)
It is ranged, so the caster has a decent chance to stay out of harms way (at least for a couple of rounds)
It only requires passing through, so the PC still has her action to cast, attack, disengage, or drag.

[Snowbluff]

RAW

there's no such thing as a "round", or "turn" (part of a round) out of combat.


A round is exactly six seconds.

Also, healing spirit is fine. It's all of the other healing spells that are too weak. Healing has been garbage for a while. It's good that there is a spell that can actually meaningfully heal people for the cost. Otherwise the best way to heal is to use the same slots to win the fight.

[Contrast]

As is, in RAW, there are different sets of rules for different situations. As evidenced by differnent rules for Combat & Chase. Ergo, you can not baselessly assume that the rules for combat still apply when combat is over. Ergo, looking at a spell out of combat, and with using the rules of combat, concluding that the spell is broken - is NOT a problem of the spell, or even RAW - but a problem that lies with the DM allowing it to be used as such. (or a DM not aware the rules of combat were never intended as system to be used in all situations outside of combat).

So not using any combat terminology as we're out of combat - do you find it implausible that a small group of adventurers could stand in a circle and take turns stepping forward and being touched by a ethereal fey who darts between them, blessing each as they step forward? I don't which is why it seems the spell should work as written in the spell description, even out of combat. I've seen people try to argue readied actions of cartloads of people and I'd certainly put the kibosh on that but the typical adventuring party wanting to get healed - seems totally reasonable. If we're getting finicky about it they probably couldn't do it to maximum efficiency so theyd drop a couple of d6s over the minute but thats well into the 'this is more detail than I think is worth modelling in my RPGs' territory personally.

If you, as a DM, plan on making spells work significantly different to how the spell description outlines fair enough but that is definitely a houserule that you should flag up with players. If I cast Faerie Fire out of combat because I suspect there of being an invisible object present would you arbitrarily tell me nothing happens because we're not in combat or change how the spell works just because there aren't any enemies around?

[NaughtyTiger]

It's all of the other healing spells that are too weak. Healing has been garbage for a while.

This is the first time that I heard healing is too difficult in 5e.

On the other hand. I think you said, this spell is overpowered because it is way better than any other healing spell.

[qube]

So not using any combat terminology as we're out of combat - do you find it implausible that a small group of adventurers could stand in a circle and take turns stepping forward and being touched by a ethereal fey who darts between them, blessing each as they step forward?oh, no, that's quite plausible.

Let me bounce a question back to you: if you use Galithar's idea of ready-action-to-dash ... what happens?
combat rules say that's just fine ... but we're not in combat
chase rules say you'll possibly start to take exhaustion ... but we're not in a chase
My argument is that the rules as written, don't specify what ruleset to use in a "normal" out-of-combat senario ... so whatever you pick, is already outside of the writen rules.

That does not, in the furthest, imply I think it's a good idea to make arbitrarily out-of-the-blue significantly different changes ... but RAW is RAW. If something isn't covered in it, I can be adult enough and admit it's not being covered in it.

[Kadesh]

... Cool.
Where have I stated healing spirit is broken or not? I'm simply looking at how Healing Spirit works according to RAW.

As is, in RAW, there are different sets of rules for different situations. As evidenced by differnent rules for Combat & Chase. Ergo, you can not baselessly assume that the rules for combat still apply when combat is over. Ergo, looking at a spell out of combat, and with using the rules of combat, concluding that the spell is broken - is NOT a problem of the spell, or even RAW - but a problem that lies with the DM allowing it to be used as such. (or a DM not aware the rules of combat were never intended as system to be used in all situations outside of combat).

If you consider that dereailing the thread ... well, I don't. I consider it on topic. If you want to argue further about this, I suggest PMming me instead of derailing the thread by trying to start an argument wether I'm derailing it or not.

Edits out the part of where I suggested they stop derailing the thread, and continues to derail the thread by talking about how something proven to exist doesn't exist.

Nice. I'm out.

[NaughtyTiger]

chase rules say you'll possibly start to take exhaustion ... but we're not in a chase


The rules state more than 3+con mod. so a PC needs to Dash 3 times in a row to possibly start to take exhaustion

[Snowbluff]

This is the first time that I heard healing is too difficult in 5e.

On the other hand. I think you said, this spell is overpowered because it is way better than any other healing spell.

Well, if the argument is that underpowered is something used infrequently, and overpowered is used too frequently, Healing Spirit would be overpowered.

However, healing spells are literally so weak that this conversation is being had about a spell being used outside of a fight. That's right, the best healing spell in the game is still too weak to be considered on the basis of being an action worth taking in combat.

[NaughtyTiger]

Well, if the argument is that underpowered is something used infrequently, and overpowered is used too frequently, Healing Spirit would be overpowered.

However, healing spells are literally so weak that this conversation is being had about a spell being used outside of a fight. That's right, the best healing spell in the game is still too weak to be considered on the basis of being an action worth taking in combat.

please read the 1st reply.

this post stopped being about healing spirit on the 4th reply, when the OP said it was more powerful than he thought.
the entire rest of this thread is do turns exist out of combat.

[Dalebert]

As a ranger, I have it but I am reluctant to cast it because I lose Hunter's Mark. I believe it's the only healing spell in the game that's concentration. That's a big negative. And it's given to two classes that are already pretty dependent on concentration.

I agree with Snowbluff. it seems the design intent this game was for healing to be both not desperately needed and rarely used. When it is used, it's mainly to save a dying character and get them back into combat. The amount they heal tends to not keep up with dmg so it's generally better to do something else with the spell slot like crowd control, dmg preventing buffs, or dmg to finish off a creature or two who's dishing out dmg.

Healing spirit is fine, but it's slow healing and it's hard to heal people who are spread out. OoC healing is pretty trivial in this edition. Even acknowledging that the OP under-powered it with his initial interpretation I still think the subject line is true. It's a good spell but having seen it in use a while, I have yet to get the sense it's broken.

[NaughtyTiger]

As a ranger, I have it but I am reluctant to cast it because I lose Hunter's Mark. I believe it's the only healing spell in the game that's concentration. That's a big negative. And it's given to two classes that are already pretty dependent on concentration.

I agree with Snowbluff. it seems the design intent this game was for healing to be both not desperately needed and rarely used. When it is used, it's mainly to save a dying character and get them back into combat. The amount they heal tends to not keep up with dmg so it's generally better to do something else with the spell slot like crowd control, dmg preventing buffs, or dmg to finish off a creature or two who's dishing out dmg.

Healing spirit is fine, but it's slow healing and it's hard to heal people who are spread out. OoC healing is pretty trivial in this edition. Even acknowledging that the OP under-powered it with his initial interpretation I still think the subject line is true. It's a good spell but having seen it in use a while, I have yet to get the sense it's broken.

My experience is different.
with Hunters Mark you get +2d6 damage per round if they both hit?
Healing Spirit gives +2d6 healing per round easily. smart teamwork pops that to +4d6.

[MaxWilson]

As a ranger, I have it but I am reluctant to cast it because I lose Hunter's Mark. I believe it's the only healing spell in the game that's concentration.

Both Aura of Vitality and Prayer of Healing also cost your concentration to cast. (Prayer of Healing due to the long casting time.)

[Pex]

This is the first time that I heard healing is too difficult in 5e.

On the other hand. I think you said, this spell is overpowered because it is way better than any other healing spell.

Perspective.

Healing Spirit isn't too powerful. The other healing spells are too weak. 1d8 + casting modifier is not enough. While the number of total spell slots over the levels is not too low, they are low enough to use them on healing spells you cannot keep up with need. What saves 5E healing from being total garbage is the availability of other healing sources in class features and resting. The Healer feat heals more hit points than a spell until you get to the Heal spell. Are you going to use a 4th level spell slot to heal someone for 4d8 + casting modifier when you could have cast Banishment or Polymorph? Polymorph is a better in combat healing spell. You can give someone 157 hit points.

Being stronger than Prayer of Healing doesn't mean it's too powerful. It's evidence that Prayer of Healing is too weak like the other healing spells.

[NaughtyTiger]

Perspective.

Healing Spirit isn't too powerful. The other healing spells are too weak. 1d8 + casting modifier is not enough. While the number of total spell slots over the levels is not too low, they are low enough to use them on healing spells you cannot keep up with need. What saves 5E healing from being total garbage is the availability of other healing sources in class features and resting. The Healer feat heals more hit points than a spell until you get to the Heal spell. Are you going to use a 4th level spell slot to heal someone for 4d8 + casting modifier when you could have cast Banishment or Polymorph? Polymorph is a better in combat healing spell. You can give someone 157 hit points.

Being stronger than Prayer of Healing doesn't mean it's too powerful. It's evidence that Prayer of Healing is too weak like the other healing spells.

You, snowbluff, and Dalebert, me, gauchi, (maybe tzun) agree that it is clearly the strongest healing spell in the game. by your own suggestion, no reason to cast any healing spell other than HS.

You, snowbluff,, and Dalebert suggest the 5e healing mechanics are too difficult.
you disagree with the basic design of the game (as far as in-combat HP management goes).
you accept healing spirit because it changes the play (a little hyperbole to say it changes the game).

non-sequitor: At least popping concentration on Polymorph gets rid of those 157 HP fast.

[stoutstien]

Perspective.

Healing Spirit isn't too powerful. The other healing spells are too weak. 1d8 + casting modifier is not enough. While the number of total spell slots over the levels is not too low, they are low enough to use them on healing spells you cannot keep up with need. What saves 5E healing from being total garbage is the availability of other healing sources in class features and resting. The Healer feat heals more hit points than a spell until you get to the Heal spell. Are you going to use a 4th level spell slot to heal someone for 4d8 + casting modifier when you could have cast Banishment or Polymorph? Polymorph is a better in combat healing spell. You can give someone 157 hit points.

Being stronger than Prayer of Healing doesn't mean it's too powerful. It's evidence that Prayer of Healing is too weak like the other healing spells.

Interesting view. I think this points out one of the most overlooked table top rpg paradoxes, Especially in D&D. A lot of the games Dynamic and tension is caused by attrition of resources. Be it Heath, spell slots, class features, currency, and even rests are things a player can spend to overcome obstacles.
The the problem with healing is unless a player is down it is almost always better to spend your action and your spell slots causing damage or and some way inconveniencing the enemy.
Healing spirit is a step in the right direction allowing a player to use their concentration to heal and free up their actions to continue to other things.
I've been working on a concept that healing is more effective when a Target is at higher health. So if the party fighter Total Health is 100 and takes 20 damage if a cleric heals them for 1d8+Wis they also gain hp equal to their con mod. It's a fighter is at half health or below they no longer get this bonus.

[MaxWilson]

You, snowball, and Dalebert, me, gauchi, (maybe tzun) agree that it is clearly the strongest healing spell in the game. by your own suggestion, no reason to cast any healing spell other than HS.

Not quite true. Mass Heal/Power Word Heal are better at in-combat healing with no concentration requirements (esp. if someone is shapechanged into e.g. an Ancient White Dragon with 330 HP), and Aura of Vitality can heal constructs/undead, unlike Healing Spirit.

So there are occasionally reasons to cast something else, but Healing Spirit is definitely king of the hill even if the multiple-heals-per-round trick is outlawed, by virtue of its superior scaling and bonus action casting time.

With a little bit of effort, Healing Spirit becomes so good it makes Shield look bad in comparison--and Shield is AWESOME! But preventing 100 HP of damage with three to five Shields is more expensive (in spell points and sometimes in reactions and feats like Warcaster) than healing 100 HP with Healing Spirit.

And both are far cheaper than inflicting 100 HP of damage with Paladin Divine Smite.

[NaughtyTiger]

Not quite true. Mass Heal/Power Word Heal are better at in-combat healing with no concentration requirements (esp. if someone is shapechanged into e.g. an Ancient White Dragon with 330 HP), and Aura of Vitality can heal constructs/undead, unlike Healing Spirit.

So there are occasionally reasons to cast something else, but Healing Spirit is definitely king of the hill even if the multiple-heals-per-round trick is outlawed, by virtue of its superior scaling and bonus action casting time.

With a little bit of effort, Healing Spirit becomes so good it makes Shield look bad in comparison--and Shield is AWESOME! But preventing 100 HP of damage with three to five Shields is more expensive (in spell points and sometimes in reactions and feats like Warcaster) than healing 100 HP with Healing Spirit.

And both are far cheaper than inflicting 100 HP of damage with Paladin Divine Smite.

i stand corrected.

[Tanarii]

1d8 + casting modifier is not enough.
Depends who it is healing. If it's being cast on a heavily armored ally that's typically only hit 25% of the time, it's worth 4*(1d8+mod) out of a level one slot.

People often overlook that healing is 100%, whereas damage is hit chance * damage.

[Pex]

Depends who it is healing. If it's being cast on a heavily armored ally that's typically only hit 25% of the time, it's worth 4*(1d8+mod) out of a level one slot.

People often overlook that healing is 100%, whereas damage is hit chance * damage.

If the ally is not being hit so often then you don't need to heal him. Better to use your spell slot to prevent others being hit more by either getting rid of the bad guy with the spell or buffing. When that ally finally does need healing a Cure Wounds spell will not suffice. He's better off drinking a potion. Short rest healing isn't much better, but at least it's not using up spell slots. Healer feat does wonders here as does Inspiring Leader indirectly.

Healing in combat is only good for stopping death saving throws and giving a PC another action to do something. That's what makes Healing Word valuable. It does the healing and still allow the caster to do something else useful. It's not casting another level spell, but a Cantrip is still useful or perhaps make attacks or use a magic item. The 1d4 + casting modifier of healing isn't the point.

[Tanarii]

That logic doesn't follow.

Comparing damage done by a spell slot to damage healed means you have to take into account for the fact that a damaging spell has a miss or half damage chance, enemies have a miss or half damage chance, but healing doesn't.

You can try to dodge with buts, what ifs, and insteads. But that's how a comparison needs to be done for them to judge the basic value of the slot. That's why healing doesn't heal as much as damage spells deal out. Edit: or enemy attacks do.

[Laserlight]

By RAW I can actually heal these creatures 20d6.

Assume party members wizard, druid, and 1-10 (for a massive party of 12 just to make a point)

Only 20d6? Arrange things so a 100-character-high skydiver stick falls through the point at 500ft/round. That gets you 100d6 in six seconds.

Caveat: don't try adventuring with a 100 player party.

[Dalebert]

You, snowball, and Dalebert, me, gauchi, (maybe tzun) agree that it is clearly the strongest healing spell in the game. by your own suggestion, no reason to cast any healing spell other than HS.

Nope. You're way off here, I definitely don't believe it's the most powerful healing spell in the game. That's absurd. It's nice to be 2nd level but Mass Healing Word and Mass Cure Wounds are both very nice. They're much faster healing in combat (see my footer about action economy and how crucial it is and H.S. is SLOW) and they don't require concentration which sucks in many cases about H.S. Forget the name but the one that heals 700 hp that you get to spread around as you like is probably among the best.


You, snowball, and Dalebert suggest the 5e healing mechanics are too difficult.

I said 5e was designed such that a dedicated healer wouldn't be necessary. I don't believe I said that was a bad thing. It's just how it is and you should strategize accordingly. The good thing about it is there's no reason to shout "We're doomed!" if no one wants to play a cleric or druid.


you disagree with the basic design of the game (as far as in-combat HP management goes).

Again, nope, as I've explained.


you accept healing spirit because it changes the play (a little hyperbole to say it changes the game).

I don't thing it does all that much. It's still relatively slow healing except in very specific situations, e.g. lots of people are hurt and they're not very spread out. Even then it's not that much--a d6 with no stat bonus.

I'm only speaking for myself since you decided to add my name to a list of people who agree with you. Maybe the others do agree. I haven't caught up on the thread since your post.

[Theodoxus]

I'm not convinced lack of hit point attrition through the adventuring day is a bad thing. The bad guys are at full hit points for the non-first combat of the day. Why can't the PCs? It's not free healing. It uses up a 2nd level spell slot every time it is used. It's not a rest, so PCs do not get back resources used. It helps players feel better continuing the adventuring day without resting after every combat like a metagame morale boost. The cleric is relieved people stop demanding he heal them all the time.


It's not free, but it is really cheap healing out of combat.

I agree with Pex that HP attrition is kinda meh. But I've also massively nerfed the number of hit points characters get as they level, so that's less of an issue.

I also agree with Pex, that HS is not so much OP as the rest of the spells are UP, but then, it's a bit of a cart before the horse, since HS is definitely power creep.

A non-tactical party will have their ranger or druid drop HS down in the middle of combat. People will run through it as needed to get their 3.5 HPs per round, and the cleric (or god forbid the Bard who stole Aura of Vitality) will wince a bit, since everyone can go through, every round, but it's a piddly amount.

A tactical party will form a ring around the spirit, pulling each other through on their turn, so everyone is healed 3.5HP * # Party-1 per round.

A strategic party will have their friendly neighborhood wizard cast Leomund's Tiny Hut and make breakfast inside while the rest of the party fights a slog against an orc army, and when folks start getting really hurt, form a conga-line in the hut, pulling people through on their turn while chowing down on tasty bacon - ignoring the barbaric pleas of the orcs to 'come out and fight like real humans.'

Honestly though, hit points are so last century. I'm kinda over them.

[Dalebert]

My experience is different.
with Hunters Mark you get +2d6 damage per round if they both hit?
Healing Spirit gives +2d6 healing per round easily. smart teamwork pops that to +4d6.

And my ranger is primarily DPS. Healing is something I do if I must, but again with healing being primarily something you do only when someone is down, H.S. often feels like an expensive thing to do--both spend a 2nd level slot and lost my Hunter's Mark which could otherwise continue into other combats, or some other concentration effect. I also have very limited spells known so while I ultimately opted for this spell, it's painful not to also have Healing Word where I could just get someone up and keep my Hunter's Mark and heal more up front. It's often that not many people have taken much dmg and if they could have easily made it to the end of the combat, at that point you may as well just short rest, making the remaining H.S. OoC healing just feel like icing at best.

So H.S. being OP mostly seems to come from people who haven't used it much in the game. When you use it in game, it doesn't feel OP at all. It feels underwhelming versus expectations, which I'm sure the play-testers realized. At least that's usually the case until the perfectly ideal scenario arises (lots of ppl dmged in a tight space and somehow the ranger can still maintain concentration), but then that's true of a lot of spells. They seem amazing when the situation is just right for it.

[LudicSavant]

Comparing damage done by a spell slot to damage healed means you have to take into account for the fact that a damaging spell has a miss or half damage chance, enemies have a miss or half damage chance, but healing doesn't.

You can try to dodge with buts, what ifs, and insteads. But that's how a comparison needs to be done for them to judge the basic value of the slot. That's why healing doesn't heal as much as damage spells deal out. Edit: or enemy attacks do.

For an example of this, if you cast Inflict Wounds with a level 1 slot, you get 3d10 damage if you hit. In order for this to outperform a 1d8+5 Cure Wounds in terms of raw hit points per spell slot, your chance to hit has to be at least ~58%, or ~76% if it's cast by a Life Cleric.

[Contrast]

oh, no, that's quite plausible.

Let me bounce a question back to you: if you use Galithar's idea of ready-action-to-dash ... what happens?
combat rules say that's just fine ... but we're not in combat
chase rules say you'll possibly start to take exhaustion ... but we're not in a chase
My argument is that the rules as written, don't specify what ruleset to use in a "normal" out-of-combat senario ... so whatever you pick, is already outside of the writen rules.

That does not, in the furthest, imply I think it's a good idea to make arbitrarily out-of-the-blue significantly different changes ... but RAW is RAW. If something isn't covered in it, I can be adult enough and admit it's not being covered in it.

Well as I said earlier, if I was DMing I'd immediately put the kibosh on people faffing about with readied actions so even the 'in combat' use wouldn't fly but I make no pretence about that being using authority as DM to overrule the RAW. If you were looking for RAW I suggest *gasp* the rules as written in the spell description unless there was a pressing reason to modify them due to some conflict, which doesn't appear to be present in this case.

[Sindeloke]

For an example of this, if you cast Inflict Wounds with a level 1 slot, you get 3d10 damage if you hit. In order for this to outperform a 1d8+5 Cure Wounds in terms of raw hit points per spell slot, your chance to hit has to be at least ~58%, or ~76% if it's cast by a Life Cleric.

Eh. The value of an Inflict Wounds in hit points isn't the healing you could have done with that spell slot, it's the damage that creature won't get to do because of the Inflict. If the Inflict causes a creature to die one round sooner and the creature deals 4d8+10 damage each round, the Inflict was a far more effective use of resources. If the creature deals 1d8+5 damage per round and has enough HP that 60% of 3d10 is worth less than a round of life, you're breaking even, but in my experience that's not really a thing that happens. If the creature was dead this round anyway it's a waste of a slot regardless. The only way you come out ahead is if the creature is dealing less than 1d8+5 per round.

Interestingly the DMG itself says, in the spell creation section, that a healing spell should just use the same suggested value as a damage spell of its level. No healing spells in the PHB even close to follow this guideline. If they did they'd actually be able to keep up with incoming damage per round in many cases, making them worth casting steadily in combat, and we'd see a more 4e/video game style of many-round battles of attrition, which is probably why they designed it the way they did.

[LudicSavant]

The value of an Inflict Wounds in hit points isn't the healing you could have done with that spell slot, it's the damage that creature won't get to do because of the Inflict.

Correct. There are numerous tactical variables above and beyond the raw hit point value per spell slot. By the same note, the value of a healing spell is more than just the raw value of hit points restored, too (such as the ability to prevent an ally from losing actions, or various other riders such as an Arcana Cleric's Spell Breaker, or Heal removing status effects).

The point I think Tanarii was trying to make, however, is that a spell that heals 5d8 outpaces an enemy attack that deals 5d8 damage but has a chance of missing. Which is simply true.


If the Inflict causes a creature to die one round sooner and the creature deals 4d8+10 damage each round, the Inflict was a far more effective use of resources. If the creature deals 1d8+5 damage per round and has enough HP that 60% of 3d10 is worth less than a round of life, you're breaking even, but in my experience that's not really a thing that happens. If the creature was dead this round anyway it's a waste of a slot regardless. The only way you come out ahead is if the creature is dealing less than 1d8+5 per round.

Yes. However, keep in mind that a monster doesn't do "4d8+10 damage each round" or "1d8+5 damage each round." They have a DPR, which you get by multiplying the probability of each outcome by the damage of said outcome. Monsters can miss, so their actual damage rate is lower than their damage-on-hit.

For example, a CR2 ogre has 6.3 DPR against a bog standard Life Cleric with basic level 1 gear (Chain+Shield). That's counting the possibility for critical hits and everything. A Life Cleric with 16 Wisdom uses Cure Wounds for an average of 10.5 healing. (Side note: If they actually wanted to burst heal at level 2, they could get 18.5 average healing in a round... which is equivalent to about 3 rounds of an ogre beating on someone in melee unhindered. Or enough to reverse a round of Deadly CR5 Troll attacks (15.625 DPR) and have some change left over)

By comparison, Inflict Wounds would do about 13.2 DPR against an ogre, thanks to their unusually pitiful AC of 11, which works out to about 22% of their hit points. However, you would also have done a decent chunk by just melee attacking them with your crappy mace for 5.05 DPR. In fact, if everyone in your party did only 5.05 DPR (where the hell are your damage dealers?), then the ogre lives for 3 rounds. If you used Inflict Wounds, at best you're lowering that to 2 rounds, but you could have undone more than 1 round worth of enemy actions with Cure Wounds in this case. Also, in any turn where your healing spell prevents the loss of allied actions, you can add that ally's actions to the spell's effective contribution.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying healing spells are amazing or anything (they're not, and indeed there are better damaging options than Inflict Wounds). I just am illustrating Tanarii's point (e.g. that healing spells suffer no reduction in efficiency due to hit rate, and that this should be accounted for to give a more accurate impression of how strong or weak they actually are).

[qube]

By comparison, Inflict Wounds would do about 13.2 DPR against an ogre, thanks to their unusually pitiful AC of 11, which works out to about 22% of their hit points.Or the command spell. 70% chance to effect the ogre with grovel (or drop if it already threw it's javalin :smallamused: ) equates to 4.4 hp healing*, and 4.2 damage**.

* 70% chance to prevent the ogre from attacking, a.k.a. 70% chance of preventing 6.3 DPR = 4.4 virtual healing

** everyone in melee gets advantage on 'm. If a standard attack is +5 vs AC for ~8 damage, this advantage increases the DPR from 75%*8 = 6 to 94%*8=7.5, or a 1.5 damage boost per (melee) party member. supposing 4 of them, that's 1.5 x 4 = 6. Multiplied by the chance grovel succeeds, this gives 4.2

---

in the end, I think there's an important distinction that even 5E core indicates, we shouldn't forget, which is IC healing (1d8+3/4/5. cure wounds) and OOC healing (10. Goodberry)

[NaughtyTiger]

So H.S. being OP mostly seems to come from people who haven't used it much in the game. When you use it in game, it doesn't feel OP at all.

Or, as I have explained, that isn't my experience at all. as i explained when i see it in play, it out heals hunters mark damage.


and i am sorry that I misinterpreted your words. i latched onto "I agree with Snowbluff" and skipped over where you didn't agree at all.

(oops sorry, i totally misread that, snowbluff. and worse, it is wrong where i am quoted.)

[Snowbluff]

B-but... that's not my name. :smallfrown:

[Pex]

That logic doesn't follow.

Comparing damage done by a spell slot to damage healed means you have to take into account for the fact that a damaging spell has a miss or half damage chance, enemies have a miss or half damage chance, but healing doesn't.

You can try to dodge with buts, what ifs, and insteads. But that's how a comparison needs to be done for them to judge the basic value of the slot. That's why healing doesn't heal as much as damage spells deal out. Edit: or enemy attacks do.

If a monster fails to damage a PC then no healing is needed. You don't heal someone at full hit points. When healing is needed the damage is 100% already done.

[Kadesh]

If a monster fails to damage a PC then no healing is needed. You don't heal someone at full hit points. When healing is needed the damage is 100% already done.

A character with 75% miss chance and 1HP is much more fragile than one at 75% miss chance and 16HP: the difference between one lucky attack to drop, and needing 3 lucky attacks.

[Spiritchaser]

That logic doesn't follow.

Comparing damage done by a spell slot to damage healed means you have to take into account for the fact that a damaging spell has a miss or half damage chance, enemies have a miss or half damage chance, but healing doesn't.

You can try to dodge with buts, what ifs, and insteads. But that's how a comparison needs to be done for them to judge the basic value of the slot. That's why healing doesn't heal as much as damage spells deal out. Edit: or enemy attacks do.

My emphasis added

Player attacks are very seldom measured against player defences, so it really is just the last part for which the comparison makes is frequently going to be considered.

If the argument is that any expected healing required must factor in all party defences, resistance, rebuffs and controls, while healing needs to consider any healing buffs (not many out there) and debuffs (virtually nothing), then I quite agree.

But if the argument is that the same ratio of PC healing to PC damage is useful in most play against monsters, then comparisons between PC healing and PC damage need to be corrected for the differences between PCs and Monsters

Monsters don’t necessarily follow the same expected damage out that a party does at a given level.

[KorvinStarmast]

The cleric is relieved people stop demanding he heal them all the time. yeah. Preach it, Reverend! :smallsmile:

Healing spirit is fine. If the enemy archer hits the caster in round 1 or 2, the spell can go down. When the stars align and all things are working great!

The cost of concentration is paid, let's say, as seen in terms of opportunity cost: other concentration spells can't be used while this is up. various Crowd Control, hold person, entangle, Hunters Mark, etc.

[NaughtyTiger]

Turns don't exist outside of combat (and chase)
When a player moves into the "space for the first time on a turn" he can get healing.

Therefore, by RAW, healing spirit doesn't provide out of combat healing at all.

If everyone agrees with that interpretation, then I have to agree with the OP.

[Spiritchaser]

Turns don't exist outside of combat (and chase)
When a player moves into the "space for the first time on a turn" he can get healing.

Therefore, by RAW, healing spirit doesn't provide out of combat healing at all.

If everyone agrees with that interpretation, then I have to agree with the OP.

But why interpret it that way?

I think that interpretation seems unintuitive, artificially adds an in combat vs out of combat state which exists nowhere in RAW and likely causes more problems than it solves in terms of other spells you might cast, where the interactions occur during actions or bonus actions on your turn.

It would be far simpler, cleaner and less disruptive to existing spells to state that healing spirit as written provides between combat healing that exceeds what is available from comparable sources, and that it does so by a margin that is likely to matter.

Limited out of combat recovery and adventuring day HP depleation isn’t the only way to pace things, but it does allow 5e to work in parties without healers.

If you want to build an optimal party, you need to very seriously consider this one spell

[Tanarii]

The point I think Tanarii was trying to make, however, is that a spell that heals 5d8 outpaces an enemy attack that deals 5d8 damage but has a chance of missing. Which is simply true.
Indeed.

It may or may not outpace the damage prevented by inflicting 5d8 damage with a chance to miss yourself. Thats more complicated, because it depends on enemy HPs.

Otoh number of enemy actions cancelled is much easier to figure out, if you onow their damage and chance to hit vs a target. And against one attacking your tank, it can be a lot.

[qube]

Indeed.hey, you even didn't take in the resistance dictomy. Resistance is quite common over vulnerability (esp. on the player side, with barbarians , HAM, a rogues half damage thing, etc ...) .

including that empowers the efficiency of healing even more over damage.
(5d8 on a barbarians is heals the equivalent of 10d8 damage; healing 5 hp on a HAM fighter could heal 5 attacks of 4 damage each)

[Willie the Duck]

I think that interpretation seems unintuitive, artificially adds an in combat vs out of combat state which exists nowhere in RAW and likely causes more problems than it solves in terms of other spells you might cast, where the interactions occur during actions or bonus actions on your turn.

The argument is older than dirt (or at least approaching disco in age). Magic Missile, when introduced in Supplement 1, did not have a listed duration. However, in I believe in 1e and Holmes, this was changed to 1 turn (10 minutes). In combat, this meant you didn't have to launch all your missiles at once, or even launch any the first round. Some interpreted that as meaning that you could cast it before someone kicked in the door and thus before combat. Thus, you were free to launch them at anyone on the other side without the chance that someone could disrupt your spell. Others argued* that stuff didn't happen in rounds outside of combat. Thus, before the door was kicked open, all actions took a full turn, meaning that the spell would expire before combat would begin.
*If you ever wonder what people could still be arguing about on classic-D&D-focused forums like Dragonsfoot, this is it.

In both that case and the one in 5e, there is language in the book that indicates the things aren't measured in rounds outside of combat (or similar situations). However, they have never been consistent about it. Without looking, I can confidently say that there are things in all editions that are only rules-defined as operating within the round structure that one could conceivably want to attempt out of combat. Regardless, even if they had been consistent, as you point out, it is unintuitive and adds yet another sense artificiality to the game. So I agree, this argument doesn't seem to add value to anything that instead altering the spell a bit wouldn't do better.