Phantasmal Force

[Xenothelm]

Considering the following sage advice: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/14/phantasmal-force-on-a-bag/, would using phantasmal force to conjure a thick, acidic mist on the target create a permanent damaging effect pending concentration?

The above description would still allow the target to move and take actions but the mist should follow it. I also don't wanna push the limits of the spell but would you support some sort of obscured vision as part of the effect? This probably varies from DM to DM...

[sophontteks]

It would only last 1 minute, the duration of the spell.

[Xenothelm]

It would only last 1 minute, the duration of the spell.

Right sry assumption on my part - “permanent” meaning the target wouldn’t really have reason to make a saving throw to investigate its validity for the duration

[sophontteks]

Right sry assumption on my part - “permanent” meaning the target wouldn’t really have reason to make a saving throw to investigate its validity for the duration
Its a pretty open-ended spell, so there isn't really going to be any big official rulings on its limitations.

The target can make an ability check to tell if what they are experiencing is an illusion, however, the spell states that they will try to justify its existence while under its effect. If they don't believe they are under the effects of an illusion, they wouldn't check in the first place. They would need a reason to. The only thing that comes to mind is if their companions interject and convince the victim that something is amiss. This could even require a persuasion check itself, depending on the circumstance.

So yeah, its an int save, a very hard save for most NPCs to make, and you can take someone out of the fight with it pretty effectively, all while dealing a total of 10d6 damage over the course of it.

But this is smallfry when it comes to the spells power. It can also be used to forge documents, create fake money, create fake missing people (here's your child, where is my reward?). IF you had a quest to find this sacred artifact. Bam! There it is. Its as real as anything to the target. Needless to say, the spell is quite a force when it comes to advancing the plot or overcoming social encounters.

It gets even dirtier if you can subtle cast it. Say some bandits are robbing your party and your doing that whole song and dance where they are demanding ransom while your party face tries to convince them not to kill you. All the sudden one of them starts screaming about killer bees and he's all waving his hands about like a lunatic, swatting at these killer bees. Well, its kinda hard to tell if he's lying. Bee's are small and he won't hold still. It certainly isn't raising suspicion to the party. Well, while the bandits are figuring out what to do, one of them is taking 1d6 damage every 10 seconds, and he's blind, and he's certainly not willing to jump into a fight (bee stings to the eyes really hurt!). The bandits, noticing that things just aren't going their way may lose their taste for a fight, especially if this is happening to the leader.

And then the sorcerer. He's thinking maybe he should do it to another bandit. It would only make the bees more convincing.

Its a pretty awesome spell.

[Xenothelm]

But this is smallfry when it comes to the spells power. It can also be used to forge documents, create fake money, create fake missing people (here's your child, where is my reward?). IF you had a quest to find this sacred artifact. Bam! There it is. Its as real as anything to the target. Needless to say, the spell is quite a force when it comes to advancing the plot or overcoming social encounters.

Good point! I didn't realize the distinction between illusions vs phantasms in this game; lots of opportunity for shenanigans!

[shogahin]

I was wondering if it would be possible to use Phantasmal Force to cause the target to think it's being slammed into the ceiling and then falling to the floor then rinse and repeat till dead or save. The target would only take 1D6 damage in each direction but could also be sent prone from the force. and of course, no spellcasting would be possible.

any thoughts?

Shoga

[NaughtyTiger]

I was wondering if it would be possible to use Phantasmal Force to cause the target to think it's being slammed into the ceiling and then falling to the floor then rinse and repeat till dead or save. The target would only take 1D6 damage in each direction but could also be sent prone from the force. and of course, no spellcasting would be possible.

any thoughts?

Shoga

why no spell casting?

as far as the other spell effects:
1d6 per round total
DM could decide to require a Dex save for prone...

[Tanarii]

This probably varies from DM to DM...
Illusions are always a case of having a discussion with your DM. Phantasmal Force is one of the big offenders. It can vary from extremely weak (2nd level slot + concentration for 1d6 / round) to close to a Hold Person (effectively removing a creature from a fight, but no free crits). And of course out of combat some DMs will allow incredible shenanigans, others won't. Totally DM dependent.

[Callak_Remier]

The Phantasm is immobile after casting

[redwizard007]

The Phantasm is immobile after casting

Not entirely true. The Phantasm can move within the spell's area of effect.

[Tanarii]

Not entirely true. The Phantasm can move within the spell's area of effect.
You mean range? Turns out the spell doesnt have an area of effect, just a size limit on the phantasm. I've made the mistake of thinking the 10ft cube was an area of effect before.

[Keravath]

The phantasm is created within the mind of the target. Whatever you create can't be more than 10' in size. However, the phantasm can be anything and can move with the target and behaves naturally as far as the target is concerned. Also, the target has to be within 60' when the spell is cast but again since the phantasm is in the mind of the target, it continues to affect it as long as concentration is maintained.

However, in a fight against a cloud giant, I used phantasmal force to create an image of a creature attacking it. (I can't recall exactly what at the moment). The giant misty stepped away and surprisingly to the giant the creature followed (it was in his own head after all :) ). The giant did try to explain away the inconsistency but couldn't come up with any way the creature could also misty step. The DM decided (and I agreed) that this could allow the giant an opportunity to inspect the illusion, it passed the check and the phantom was no more.

[Dalebert]

The DM decided (and I agreed) that this could allow the giant an opportunity to inspect the illusion, it passed the check and the phantom was no more.

As long as they spend their action on it. The investigation takes an action. I think any round spent when their action is devoted to interacting with the illusion is essentially an investigation of the illusion and justifies a roll. Their attention is focused on it.

Ex:
Ogre is trapped in phantasmal thorny cage. It tries to smash its way out. Its attacking the illusion. Its interacting directly with it and wasting its action. I think its appropriate to treat that as an investigation of the illusion and allow a roll to end it.

If they take ANY action that has a mechanical impact of any sort, that essentially amounts to disregarding the illusion, absolutely no roll; no chance to identify and end it. That’s how I handle it.

[Callak_Remier]

Not entirely true. The Phantasm can move within the spell's area of effect.

Exactly were does it say that in the book

[Dalebert]

Not entirely true. The Phantasm can move within the spell's area of effect.


Exactly were does it say that in the book

The target is a creature; not a point in space. The illusion is in its mind. Whether it moves depends on whether it makes sense for it to move to that creature, e.g. ants on its skin or a helmet around its head. The effect is moving because it’s on the creature just like any other effect. If you polymorph a creature and it moves, the spell effect moves with it. Same thing here.

[Stygofthedump]

Any problem using this on undead?

[Callak_Remier]

Any problem using this on undead?

It explicitly says undead and constructs are immune