Spheres of Power - Gaining spherecasting through sacrificing feats?

[Fallenreality]

In Spheres of Might it specifically states that any non-high caster class can sacrifice every other feat to gain proficient Spheres of Might progression. Would any issues come from allowing players to do the same to gain low Spheres of Power casting progression on any class without Expert Spheres of Might progression?

[Mehangel]

It has been stated by multiple dev's that a single feat is roughly worth 2 combat talents (SoM) or 1 magic talent (SoP). With this in mind, it wouldn't be fair to allow the same progession by sacrificing feats.

EDIT: So I went and asked a couple of the SoM dev's (Adam Meyers, Stack, N. Jolly), and they each agree that placing a strict value to Combat or Magic talents is misleading, imbalanced, and/or unnecessary.

[Minion #6]

It has been stated by multiple dev's that a single feat is roughly worth 2 combat talents (SoM) or 1 magic talent (SoP). With this in mind, it wouldn't be fair to allow the same progession by sacrificing feats.

Mind if I ask for a source on that one? Not to say I disagree, except maybe in the case of Legendary Talents or edge cases like Mobile Striker giving early Spring Attack.

[Mehangel]

Mind if I ask for a source on that one? Not to say I disagree, except maybe in the case of Legendary Talents or edge cases like Mobile Striker giving early Spring Attack.

I was going to cite a couple of posts made in the Spheres of Might playtest thread, and Archetypes of Power playtest thread where progression and talent worth were discussed (particularly regarding the Coiled Blade fighter archetype), but decided instead to ask the dev's directly. Their response is that it wasn't intended that players 'exchange' the two systems like they were currencies. Players if allowed to do so could break the game, and possibly make claims that the dev's don't know their own system. Ultimately, they feel that since talents (even within their own sphere or system) are not created equal, let alone feats, assigning an exchange worth is unnecessary and inaccurate.

TLDR; I misinterpreted posts about the Coiled Blade fighter archetype. Combat talents have no conversion rate with either Magic talents or Feats.

[Fallenreality]

Thanks for the quick responses! I just wanted to double check before helping people build their characters for a game that might be starting up.

[AmberVael]

The somewhat more obvious answer is that you can already gain spherecasting by spending feats. That's what Basic Magical Training, Advanced Magical Training, and Extra Magic Talent are for. It would be odd to introduce another, superior method.

[Kitsuneymg]

The somewhat more obvious answer is that you can already gain spherecasting by spending feats. That's what Basic Magical Training, Advanced Magical Training, and Extra Magic Talent are for. It would be odd to introduce another, superior method.

Seconding this. If you want casting, but it with the feats that exist to buy it. Also remember that a +2 staff enhancement can grant a sphere or talent.

With Archetypes of Power now our, I’m struggling to see where you feel you need to buy a progression when there are plenty of dippable options. If 1pp spheres isn’t enough, the list spheres books provide the reaper and an archetype of nekrosthat are full bab gish classes. Surely one of the gish classes does what you want better than blowing all your feats for a few talents.

[Fallenreality]

I actually hadn't seen the hybrid classes when I posted this haha

After learning about the wiki and taking a look: Troubadour and some of the 3rd party classes look very appealing as does the Growling Marauder Skald archetype.

[Minion #6]

Growling Marauder is a great choice, as is Trobadour, if you want to cover a lot of ground. In fact, Growling Marauder might be one of my favourite pieces of content in Spheres altogether.

[Fallenreality]

My only concern with Growling Marauder is that it doesn't appear to stack with any of the archetypes that replace Inspired Rage which can be inconsistent depending on how many strength based people you have in your party. Outside of that it looks like an amazing archetype

[Mithril Leaf]

Growling Marauder is a great choice, as is Trobadour, if you want to cover a lot of ground.

Listen man, I love the Troubadour a lot conceptually, even was going to write a guide about it. It does however suck pretty hard sadly. You only get a single talent by level 3 and a second at level 5. You're pretty much just a worst Antiquarian Armiger for most of the early levels.

[EldritchWeaver]

Listen man, I love the Troubadour a lot conceptually, even was going to write a guide about it. It does however suck pretty hard sadly. You only get a single talent by level 3 and a second at level 5. You're pretty much just a worst Antiquarian Armiger for most of the early levels.

Don't you use personas to fill out missing talents?

[Galacktic]

My big issue with Troubadour is purely thematic. Why, if I have access to genuine magic in one persona can't I use it in another one? And why do I forget all the magic I've learned if I create a new persona over that one?

It basically requires you saying you have a genuine split personality or you're doing something ala Host of Heroes Aegis or Living Legend Soulknife.

[A.J.Gibson]

My only concern with Growling Marauder is that it doesn't appear to stack with any of the archetypes that replace Inspired Rage which can be inconsistent depending on how many strength based people you have in your party. Outside of that it looks like an amazing archetype

GM doesn't touch Inspired Rage. Unfortunately, it touches a lot of other stuff. Conflicts:
Demon Dancer - None!
Dragon Skald - Scribe Scroll, Well Versed
Fate Champion - Well Versed, Spell Kenning
Herald of the Horn - Spell Kenning
Spell Warrior - Scribe Scroll, Spell Kenning
Totemic Skald - Uncanny Dodge, Spell Kenning, Improved Uncanny Dodge
War Drummer - Scribe Scroll

[Tariyan Draegr]

My big issue with Troubadour is purely thematic. Why, if I have access to genuine magic in one persona can't I use it in another one? And why do I forget all the magic I've learned if I create a new persona over that one?

It basically requires you saying you have a genuine split personality or you're doing something ala Host of Heroes Aegis or Living Legend Soulknife.

It very much implies the former in the flavor of the class. You're a charisma based caster because you actively start believing you are your role. I'm a full caster. Why? Because in this persona I am the great wizard darry hresden and any wizard worth his salt is a full caster. Same with hero having full Bab. Charisma is all about forcing your will on the world, not rote memorization. Meaning that if you believe you can do it, you can (most of the time). And the persona helps you believe you can do it.

[Fallenreality]

GM doesn't touch Inspired Rage. Unfortunately, it touches a lot of other stuff. Conflicts:
Demon Dancer - None!
Dragon Skald - Scribe Scroll, Well Versed
Fate Champion - Well Versed, Spell Kenning
Herald of the Horn - Spell Kenning
Spell Warrior - Scribe Scroll, Spell Kenning
Totemic Skald - Uncanny Dodge, Spell Kenning, Improved Uncanny Dodge
War Drummer - Scribe Scroll

Sadly Demon Dancer has conflicts since Growling Marauder replaces all rage powers. That's also why Wyrm Singer doesn't work as a replacement for Inspired Rage

[A.J.Gibson]

Sadly Demon Dancer has conflicts since Growling Marauder replaces all rage powers. That's also why Wyrm Singer doesn't work as a replacement for Inspired Rage

Yep, you're right.

It seems the only archetypes compatible with GM is Red Tongue Skald, and maybe Battle Scion depending on how you read the wording.

[Fallenreality]

Yep, you're right.

It seems the only archetypes compatible with GM is Red Tongue Skald, and maybe Battle Scion depending on how you read the wording.

Hmm, Battle Scion also alters rage powers so I don't know if that would work, but Red Tongue totally does. I wonder what a good way to handle the bonus spells would be... Something about gaining the Mind Sphere and bonus talents for it maybe?

[Mithril Leaf]

Don't you use personas to fill out missing talents?

The problem is that Persona Quirks come along painfully slow, you have a total of two selectable talents at level 3, and at level 5 you have a plentiful 6, which you can get two of at a time.

[SangoProduction]

My big issue with Troubadour is purely thematic. Why, if I have access to genuine magic in one persona can't I use it in another one? And why do I forget all the magic I've learned if I create a new persona over that one?

It basically requires you saying you have a genuine split personality or you're doing something ala Host of Heroes Aegis or Living Legend Soulknife.

2 words: Method acting.

[Fallenreality]

2 words: Method acting.

Exactly, Troubadours are basically Heath Ledger