Bonus Action Cantrip+Leveled Spell

[ATHATH]

My group insists that our Grave Cleric can cast Cure Wounds as an action, then cast Spare the Dying as a bonus action. They say that the Bonus Action spell rule only prevents casting leveled spells AFTER you cast the Bonus Action spell (which would let Sorcerers cast two leveled spells per turn, by the way).

Can someone here post a better argument than I can about why that is an incorrect ruling so that I can show them it?

[Maelynn]

cast Cure Wounds as an action, then cast Spare the Dying as an action

Not sure if you made a typo, but you can't use 2 actions in 1 turn, regardless of them being spells or not. If you meant cast StD as bonus action, as Grave Clerics can do, then it won't work because the cantrip has to be the duration of an action:


you can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action

As for the 'before or after bonus action' bit, the above quote shows it doesn't matter if it's before or after the bonus action - in both cases it's "during the same turn".

[Kane0]

If you have some way of getting another action on your turn (such as action surge) you can indeed cast two levelled spells during your turn, provided none are bonus actions. The 'cantrip only' thing kicks in once a bonus action comes into play.

IIRC, not in front of book.

[ATHATH]

Yeah, I meant to say Bonus Action.

[Maelynn]

Yeah, I meant to say Bonus Action.

Then my answer stands. You can only cast a cantrip with a duration of 1 action in combination with a bonus action spell. So instead of Cure Wounds he could've cast a cantrip like Light or Guidance.

[JNAProductions]

That being said, this doesn't seem very game-breaking to me.

It's good to know the real rules, but I'd hardly throw a fit over this, so long as it's acknowledged as a houserule.

[NaughtyTiger]

Bonus Action
A spell cast with a Bonus Action is especially swift. You must use a Bonus Action on Your Turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a Bonus Action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a Casting Time of 1 action.

There is no before or after qualifier.
If you cast a spell (even a lowly cantrip) as a bonus action, you can only cast a cantrip for an action.
If you cast a 1-level or higher spell as an action, you cannot cast any spell as a bonus action.

JNA's point is reasonable, though.

[guachi]

The timing of a bonus action only matters if it says it matters.

There is no mention of timing on the limitation of only casting a cantrip if you cast a bonus action spell.

Tell your friend that they can tweet Jeremy Crawford if they want. Heck, make a bet with them on the answer. You are guaranteed to win the bet.

[Pex]

Order doesn't matter, but the bonus action spell has to be a level spell. If the bonus spell is a Cantrip, the action spell cannot be a level spell. I know. It's confusing.

Bonus Action Level Spell then Action Cantrip = Legal
Action Cantrip then Bonus Action Level spell = Legal
Bonus Action Cantrip then Action Cantrip = Legal
Action Cantrip then Bonus Action Cantrip = Legal
Bonus Action Cantrip then Action Level Spell = Not Legal
Action Level Spell then Bonus Action Cantrip = Not Legal

I think it a dumb restriction, but there it is. So yes, unfortunately, a Grave Cleric cannot cast a Bonus Action Spare The Dying and Action Cure Wounds in the same round. The order is irrelevant. It's because the Action spell is a level spell that causes the problem. You are never allowed to cast a Level spell as an action when you also cast a Bonus spell. The Action spell must be a Cantrip, but the Bonus Action spell can be a Cantrip or a Level spell. The order you do that doesn't matter.

I'm fine with you cannot do a Bonus Action Level spell and Action Level spell. What is dumb for me is that the Action spell must be a Cantrip.

[Lunali]

"If you want to cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 bonus action, remember that you can’t cast any other spells before or after it on the same turn, except for cantrips with a casting time of 1 action." -XGtE

[Kane0]

If you're not DMing AL then a fair and much simpler ruling is: 'Only one non-cantrip spell on your turn'. Which is pretty much what the rules are getting at, in a very roundabout and incomplete fashion.

[Greywander]

If you're not DMing AL then a fair and much simpler ruling is: 'Only one non-cantrip spell on your turn'. Which is pretty much what the rules are getting at, in a very roundabout and incomplete fashion.
This. As others have said, they way they wrote the rules here seems quite silly.

I'm trying out a houserule where you can only cast multiple spells in one turn as long as their combined levels add up to half your caster level, rounded up. So for example, if you are 5th level, you can cast both a 1st and 2nd level spell in one turn, but if you cast a 3rd level spell you aren't able to cast any other leveled spells that turn. I imagine that there are some low level spells that can be exploited here to break the game (probably Healing Word), but I haven't encountered such a situation yet.

But it sounds like you're the DM here, and you want to enforce the rules as written. So yeah, it's action cantrip, bonus action leveled spell, in any order. As long as it isn't AL, you don't have to stick with this rule, though. I'd encourage you to consider if it would be more fun for your players to go with the simplified version (one leveled spell per turn), but I can also see the logic in not letting the cleric auto-stabilize anyone who goes down and still cast a leveled spell.

[ATHATH]

"If you want to cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 bonus action, remember that you can’t cast any other spells before or after it on the same turn, except for cantrips with a casting time of 1 action." -XGtE
Ooh, can I get a page number for that?

[Asmotherion]

Breakdown:

A) You can Never cast more than 1 leveled spell per turn.
B) If you cast two spells in the same turn, the seccond one needs to be a cantrip, and be done with an Action.
C) In case you cast two spells in your turn, and one is a leveled spell, it needs to be done with your Bonus Action (even if you have the ability to go for a regular action).

An interesting example of C, as silly as it sounds, is you technically cannot, by RAW, Misty Step and Shillelagh during the same turn. A DM could allow you to cast Shillelagh as an Action to make it work, but it would not be RAW.

[Kane0]

Breakdown:

A) You can Never cast more than 1 leveled spell per turn
Action surge!

[Quoxis]

Action surge!

„You can never cast more than one leveled spell per turn unless a feature, spell, item or a lenient GM grant you a second action to do so“?

[Quoxis]

C) In case you cast two spells in your turn, and one is a leveled spell, it needs to be done with your Bonus Action (even if you have the ability to go for a regular action).

An interesting example of C, as silly as it sounds, is you technically cannot, by RAW, Misty Step and Shillelagh during the same turn. A DM could allow you to cast Shillelagh as an Action to make it work, but it would not be RAW.

In most of the games i played in this never happened, and in the game i‘m currently in the GM allows it, but now that i think about it this particular rule makes the sorcerer‘s quickened metamagic even more powerful/versatile than it already was.
You still can’t cast misty step and an action cantrip in the same turn though.

[ThePolarBear]

Order doesn't matter, but the bonus action spell has to be a level spell. If the bonus spell is a Cantrip, the action spell cannot be a level spell. I know. It's confusing.

Any bonus action spell -> only cantrips with action casting time. There's no difference in the bonus action being a leveled spell or not. I don't know why you make a distinction here, since you then make the (almost, no one ever consider reactions :D) correct description of how it works later...


You are never allowed to cast a Level spell as an action when you also cast a Bonus spell. The Action spell must be a Cantrip, but the Bonus Action spell can be a Cantrip or a Level spell. The order you do that doesn't matter.

----


„You can never cast more than one leveled spell per turn unless a feature, spell, item or a lenient GM grant you a second action to do so“?

More like there was never a rule preventing it in the first place. There is no general rule on what happens when you cast spells that are of first level or higher. There is a restriction on when you can cast cast spells with a bonus action and what else you can do during that round.
Edit: the fact is that you generally only have one action, and that is the limiting factor.

[Asmotherion]

Action surge!
Technically, by RAW, you can only cast a single spell and a Cantrip, possibly a Bonus Action Leveled Spell, an Action Cantrip and one more Action Cantrip as the limit of Action Surge. It's not supposed to give you an extra Bonus Action.

Most DMs will let it slide though.

As a Side Note, this technicalities are why I find RAF more fun to follow than RAW.

[KillingTime]

Technically, by RAW, you can only cast a single spell and a Cantrip, possibly a Bonus Action Leveled Spell, an Action Cantrip and one more Action Cantrip as the limit of Action Surge. It's not supposed to give you an extra Bonus Action.


Not true, because there is no restriction on the number of levelled "Action" spells you can cast during a turn.
The only restriction stems from casting a spell as a bonus action.

So with an action surge you could cast:

Action 1: Levelled Spell
Action 2: Levelled Spell
Bonus Action. Not a Spell

Or

Action 1: Cantrip
Action 2: Cantrip
Bonus Action: Levelled Spell

[Armored Walrus]

Can someone here post a better argument than I can about why that is an incorrect ruling so that I can show them it?

The wording of this request bugs me.

If you can't articulate your position well enough to defend it, why are you so certain it's correct? Either make the ruling and stand by it "because rulings are the DM's job, and that's my ruling", or let them have their bonus action cantrip, action spell. If they don't trust you enough to respect the rulings you make based on your own merit, why would adding five random opinions from the internet make the situation at your table better?

[Pex]

Any bonus action spell -> only cantrips with action casting time. There's no difference in the bonus action being a leveled spell or not. I don't know why you make a distinction here, since you then make the (almost, no one ever consider reactions :D) correct description of how it works later...


Because I was referencing the specific point of someone wanting to cast a level spell and a cantrip in the same round. To do that only the bonus spell can be the level spell. Then I discussed the full rule.

[ThePolarBear]

Because I was referencing the specific point of someone wanting to cast a level spell and a cantrip in the same round. To do that only the bonus spell can be the level spell. Then I discussed the full rule.

I guess it's the "a" instead of "the" in reference to "leveled spell" that throws me off. I mean, given that you do not treat the "leveled spell and leveled spell" case, without the rest of the post it seems like you might accept the "lvl spell + lvl spell" case as possible.
Thanks for the explanation.

[NaughtyTiger]

The wording of this request bugs me.

If you can't articulate your position well enough to defend it, why are you so certain it's correct?

Shoot, I wasn't the OP, and you schooled me. Well said.

[MaxWilson]

If you're not DMing AL then a fair and much simpler ruling is: 'Only one non-cantrip spell on your turn'. Which is pretty much what the rules are getting at, in a very roundabout and incomplete fashion.

Not exactly. The PHB rules also prevent you from combining metamagics in certain ways, using e.g. Careful Hypnotic Pattern on the same turn you Quicken Fire Bolt.

So the rule you suggest would make sorcs stronger than the current PHB rule. Not that that's a problem or anything, but it is a material change to the status quo.

[Maelynn]

"If you want to cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 bonus action, remember that you can’t cast any other spells before or after it on the same turn, except for cantrips with a casting time of 1 action." -XGtE

Ooh, can I get a page number for that?

Page 5, under Bonus Action Spells. :)

[Reth]

Order doesn't matter, but the bonus action spell has to be a level spell. If the bonus spell is a Cantrip, the action spell cannot be a level spell. I know. It's confusing.

Bonus Action Level Spell then Action Cantrip = Legal
Action Cantrip then Bonus Action Level spell = Legal
Bonus Action Cantrip then Action Cantrip = Legal
Action Cantrip then Bonus Action Cantrip = Legal
Bonus Action Cantrip then Action Level Spell = Not Legal
Action Level Spell then Bonus Action Cantrip = Not Legal

I think it a dumb restriction, but there it is. So yes, unfortunately, a Grave Cleric cannot cast a Bonus Action Spare The Dying and Action Cure Wounds in the same round. The order is irrelevant. It's because the Action spell is a level spell that causes the problem. You are never allowed to cast a Level spell as an action when you also cast a Bonus spell. The Action spell must be a Cantrip, but the Bonus Action spell can be a Cantrip or a Level spell. The order you do that doesn't matter.

I'm fine with you cannot do a Bonus Action Level spell and Action Level spell. What is dumb for me is that the Action spell must be a Cantrip.


Yeah the game I'm in atm just house ruled it so that on your turn if you cast a spell you can only cast a cantrip (we made the distinction that cantrips are cantrips and spells with a spell level are spells) with your action and bonus action, if you get a full second action on your turn you can use that as normal for spell casting.

So cast magic missile you can still cast shillelagh. grave cleric and cast spare the dying can then cast cure wounds.

We also let you cast bonus action spells/cantrips with your normal action.

[MeeposFire]

It is easy to forget that this effects reaction spells as well. If I cast healing word I cannot cast shield on my turn (for instance I move away from an enemy and get hit by an opportunity attack).

My houserule for this (because I feel like the rule is even more limiting than what they really want and I do nto like how shillelagh+ cure wounds is illegal but healing word and produce flame is legal and yet both are a cantrip +1st level spell) is that "in any turn where you cast more than one spell and one is a bonus action spell at least one of the spells cast that turn must be a cantrip". I believe this fixes everything and still fulfills what I think the intent behind the rule was without having unusual interactions.

[Greywander]

(we made the distinction that cantrips are cantrips and spells with a spell level are spells)
While this is a convenient shorthand, it should be noted that cantrips are still spells. This matters in many cases where some sort of ability or feature affects your spells, which includes cantrips. This is why some features specifically call out casting a spell "of 1st level or higher" or "using a spell slot", neither of which would include cantrips.


It is easy to forget that this effects reaction spells as well. If I cast healing word I cannot cast shield on my turn (for instance I move away from an enemy and get hit by an opportunity attack).
Not so, reaction spells are generally cast not on your own turn, so you can (almost) always cast a leveled spell as a reaction. You're getting turns and rounds mixed up.
EDIT: Whoops, didn't fully read what you wrote, you are actually correct here. This is one of the rare cases of casting a spell as a reaction on your own turn.

[Reth]

While this is a convenient shorthand, it should be noted that cantrips are still spells. This matters in many cases where some sort of ability or feature affects your spells, which includes cantrips. This is why some features specifically call out casting a spell "of 1st level or higher" or "using a spell slot", neither of which would include cantrips.


Not so, reaction spells are generally cast not on your own turn, so you can (almost) always cast a leveled spell as a reaction. You're getting turns and rounds mixed up.


We just use normal simple logic and apply such effects as they should be. Like the dragon magic sorcerer getting +cha to damaging things they cast. It's really just for the short hand for"did you cast a spell already this round? OK you can only cast a cantrip now".


Thought I'd throw this in there as well, we just let people use reaction spells whenever since it still uses up their reaction for the rest of the round.

[Moosoculars]

„You can never cast more than one leveled spell per turn unless a feature, spell, item or a lenient GM grant you a second action to do so“?

Nope. What about a reaction. Say you cast fireball (1 action) then an enemies readied action goes off (to attack your pc when you cast a spell) so you cast shield as a reaction.

Two level spells same turn.

[Moosoculars]

Breakdown:

B) If you cast two spells in the same turn, the seccond one needs to be a cantrip, and be done with an Action.


Actually the order doesn't matter. The first once can be a cantrip and the second a level spell.