Is a hexblade warlock dip just too good for a sorcerer, bard, or paladin?

[Klorox]

A couple of assumptions: you’re using point buy for statistics and you’re strictly concerned with optimization, not a roleplaying sense.

A small dip gives sorcerers and bards a better armor class, which makes them a lot tougher to kill. It also gives them the ability to use weapons with their CHA, which frees up a ton of ASI’s. It gives bards a great ranged attack, something they definitely lack.

This same small dip frees up a paladin it’s inherently MAD nature, making the class very SAD (you still need STR for wearing heavy armor). Paladins, like bards, often lack a good ranged attack. Adding warlock helps the paladin in that aspect as well.

[suplee215]

A couple of assumptions: you’re using point buy for statistics and you’re strictly concerned with optimization, not a roleplaying sense.


I feel like this is a problem with all warlocks, although Hexblade does make it worse. I personally as a DM do not allow players to multi class for optimization reasons based mainly due to the warlock. While there are always exceptions, the majority of time when someone multi classes into warlock they are looking to exploit something. And Hexblade just added a bunch of goodies. Of course, if you are looking for objective "yes or no" to this question it will be difficult with arguments on both sides.

[Aimeryan]

I would more go the other direction; other options aren't good enough.

I'm the sort of person who likes customisation and not taking the obvious path. 5e could do with more options available to a player other than 'take another level in your class' - multiclassing is one of these.

Rather than make Warlock less of a good dip, I would like to see other options become competitors.

[Dudewithknives]

I would more go the other direction; other options aren't good enough.

I'm the sort of person who likes customisation and not taking the obvious path. 5e could do with more options available to a player other than 'take another level in your class' - multiclassing is one of these.

Rather than make Warlock less of a good dip, I would like to see other options become competitors.

For Paladin I can definately see it being absolutely amazing, bard and sorcerer, probably not.

The bigger issue is fixing warlock so it is not just a 2 or 3 level dip for all other cha classes.

Hint: It is because they made EB a cantrip and not a class ability like people told them to.

[UrielAwakened]

To answer your question, yes. It's a very front-loaded class.

It gives sorcerers the armor they need to take hits. It gives all of them access to the best cantrip in the game (and even two levels for Agonizing Blast is probably worth it).

But keep in mind if a Paladin really wants to optimize he doesn't go Warlock, he goes Sorcerer. If a Bard really wants to optimize he doesn't go Warlock, he goes Lore Bard.

Really Sorcerer is the only one where Warlock is a necessity, and that's mostly because the class itself just isn't good enough. Recovering Sorcery Points, +Cha on damage spells, better armor, these are all things the Sorcerer should just be doing on its own. It shouldn't need to take two levels in Warlock to get those features.

[Millface]

Warlock and Sorcerer are a little bit broken in that they're basically married from an optimization standpoint. Sorlock is just straight up better than either two classes by itself.

Hexblade/Paladin is good in different ways than straight class Paladin, but I wouldn't say it's better, really. It Novas like an absolute unit, but straight Paladin has more tools/support.

Bard doesn't really need help. There are plenty of viable multiclass options, but straight bard is super strong on its own.

Sorlock isn't better than other classes, just better than straight Sorc or Warlock. So, no, I don't think the dip is too good for any class, I think that Warlock and Sorcerer aren't good enough by themselves.

They synergize so well together, though, that buffing them would break the multiclass. They put themselves in a tough spot there, to be sure.

[Ganymede]

A couple of assumptions: you’re using point buy for statistics and you’re strictly concerned with optimization, not a roleplaying sense.

Why do you want us to answer this query from the perspective of some sort of self-aware robo-monster? Are you writing a science fiction novel about D&D players?

[Sception]

As with others, i wouldnt call the combo too good, but rather sorc maybe not good enough on its own. Certainly it isnt so good that it will break your game or anything.

Hexblade is definitely too front loaded though. Again, not to the point of being game breaking, but enough to be a bit frustrating, and a bit too obvious a dip for cha gishes. The problem is that hexblade is a stealth fix for bladelock stapled onto what is otherwise already a fully functional warlock patron, and since patrons don't get third level features, that means tge better version of a third level feature is coming at first levrl, on top of all the normal stuff first level warlocks get.

Take hex warrior out of first level hexblade, add it into blade pact boon, and you'll have a hexblade that is still perfectly functional wirhout feeling mechanically pushed towards blade pact, and a blade pact that is much more enjoyable to play even with pacts other than hexblade, and warlick in general, while still a good multiclass option for cha gishes, is no longer quite so obvious a dip.

Of course a better fix would have been to remove the warlock's blade pact altogether and make hexblade its own separate class, related to warlocks the same way paladins are related to clerics. That frees hexblade up to have a variety of patrons, and lets you give them appropriate saves, proficiencies, their own tailored spell and invocation list, etc.

Oh well.

[Cerefel]

I think one reason that warlock is a fairly common dip for bards is that the bard list is basically devoid of any real damage spells and a warlock dip gives a lot of at-will damage in 2 levels.

[Dudewithknives]

I think one reason that warlock is a fairly common dip for bards is that the bard list is basically devoid of any real damage spells and a warlock dip gives a lot of at-will damage in 2 levels.

Same for paladin:

Paladin have almost no options for ranged ability, with 2 levels of hexblade they get to use their best stat for everything and get a great at will ranged attack. Also they get short rest refilling smite fuel.

[Arkhios]

Honestly, I don't see the issue. Multiclassing comes always with opportunity cost. I'm fine with it. And if for some reason I change my mind, it's quite easy to say 'multiclassing is an optional rule, and I'm not allowing it for my game'. And if I were to do that midgame, I' d obviously let every player rebuild their character if the were multiclassed. Fortunately, my players generally refrain from it, and those who play with their characters, do so in reasonable manner – not abusing shenanigans.

[Joe the Rat]

Hexblade is definitely too front loaded though. Again, not to the point of being game breaking, but enough to be a bit frustrating, and a bit too obvious a dip for cha gishes. The problem is that hexblade is a stealth fix for bladelock stapled onto what is otherwise already a fully functional warlock patron, and since patrons don't get third level features, that means tge better version of a third level feature is coming at first levrl, on top of all the normal stuff first level warlocks get.

Take hex warrior out of first level hexblade, add it into blade pact boon, and you'll have a hexblade that is still perfectly functional wirhout feeling mechanically pushed towards blade pact, and a blade pact that is much more enjoyable to play even with pacts other than hexblade, and warlick in general, while still a good multiclass option for cha gishes, is no longer quite so obvious a dip.

This is my issue with the Hexblade - a front-loaded patron on a front-loaded class, with some early features that would have been better as part of the blade pact in the first place. Even just putting charisma-to-attack as a blade pact feature as opposed to a hexblade feature would have sufficed. This makes the desired dip a deeper delve, delaying development of your primary. Hexblade as martial proficiency and better armor for one level? You are getting hex curse and eldritch blast access instead of second wind and a fighting style (or heavy armor and lay on hands). Any patron as a 3-level dip for CHA SADness? Increases the dip cost, and opens the field.

[Laserlight]

(you still need STR for wearing heavy armor)

Full plate = AC 18 with STR15 required
Half plate +14 DEX = AC17 with no STR requirement

[Sception]

Full plate = AC 18 with STR15 required
Half plate +14 DEX = AC17 with no STR requirement

Paladins need 13 strength to multiclass at all. From there, the 4 extra points to buy up to syr 15 is a considerably easier investment than the 7 points you would need to buy dex up from 8 to 14. Granted, you'd also gain better init and dex saves, but athletics would be lower, and you probably end up losing points out of con, for lower hp and concentration saves, and one point less ac does matter for a tanky melee character.

Medium armor hexadins are certainly playable, but heavy armor hexadins are probably better overall, and are undeniably easier on the stat distribution in points buy games, unless your dm houserules the str requirement for multiclass paladins away.