Help with building Daggerspell Mage

[Silly Name]

I've been working on a character which I've always wanted to play, but never got the opportunity to: the Rogue/Arcane gish. While researching through books for ideas, I came across C.Adv Daggerspell Mage: its class features strike my fancy, and I would really like to play one, but I'm not sure how optimal of a class it is. Should I just go straight Arcane Trickster? Feat distribution has me stumped, too.

So far, the build I had in mind was:
Rogue 2
Sorcerer 5 (trade away familiar or not?)
Daggerspell Mage 3
Arcane Trickster 3
Daggerspell Mage 7

Obviously I'd be stuck with Weapon Focus (Dagger) and Two-Weapon Fighting as feat requirements, but it isn't too bad of a feat tax.
The 3 levels in Arcane Trickster for Ranged Legerdemain and Impromptu Sneak Attack.

For further info, I'm in a relatively low-op campaign, with a low-op group (we're mostly going to make single-classed characters with one or two PrCs on top, or dual-classed chars with one single PrC), and I'm the one with the longest game experience in the group, and I've been helping other players make their characters and avoid obvious traps. Oh, and I was thinking of using Human to off-set the feat tax.

The group will also have a Barbarian, a Cleric, a Ranger and possibly a straight Rogue/Assassin.

I also wouldn't mind for some suggestion for equipment, since I really suck at that past getting my weapons and armor enchanted.

Books allowed: Core, Complete series, PHB2 are all confirmed. Other books might be used, but are under DM veto (ToB is an unlikely choice for me, though). Dragon Magazine is ok. No setting-specific books (Dragonlance, Eberron, FG, etc).

[OgresAreCute]

I'd suggest going for Unseen Seer from Complete Mage.

[Silly Name]

How comes? I don't really see the appeal over Arcane Trickster.

The bonuses to divination spells are neat, but I was hoping for a character who'd be more of a "magical thief" and incorporates that in his battle-style, rather than using magic and melee separately.

[Kurald Galain]

How comes? I don't really see the appeal over Arcane Trickster.
The prereqs on US are easier, and one level of US helps you qualify for AT.

[Silly Name]

Hm, I see. So, I guess such a build would look like this:

Rogue 4
Sorcerer 1
Unseen Seer 5
Arcane Trickster 10

It doesn't look too shabby, although the reason I was initially interested in Daggerspell Mage was for the built-in ability to use daggers alongside magic, which is not there for either Unseen Seer or Arcane Trickster. I think the Arcane Strike feat from Complete Warrior could take care of that, but it doesn't seem like the best choice.

I guess the build could still work if I abandon Arcane Trickster in favour of Daggerspell Mage (as I said, those levels in Arcane Trickster were there only for the extra tricks), which would mean giving up on 2 sneak attack dice.

[16bearswutIdo]

The prereqs on US are easier, and one level of US helps you qualify for AT.

You have to keep in mind that this is a low-op game where most people are single/dual classing at most. I think 2 base classes and 3 prestige classes starts pushing the limits of what looks silly.

To OP, Unseen Seer doesn't really mesh well with Daggerspell Mage, since unseen seer lowers your CL for the spells you'd mostly be using as daggerspell mage. It really comes down to whether you want this guy to be a knife-twirling, spell-slinging damage dealer, or a divining mage who can stab a man after reading his mind.

I'd take Arcane Strike regardless of what you end up doing though. It's a good way to add some extra damage on. Under ideal circumstances, you can get sneak attack damage + spell damage + arcane strike damage. There's a whole lotta d6s in there.

[Silly Name]

Yeah, we don't have rules against ludicrous amounts of classes, but I don't exactly like them myself. They're fun in a theoretical optimised build, but they tend to be a bit silly in actual play. In any case, in this game I am planning for character concept to take precedence over optimisation, while still remaining functional.

I had actually completely missed that Unseen Seer lowers CL for anything but Divination Spell. That makes it a big no for this build, as I indeed planned the character to use magic to enhance his offensive skills, rather than for spying/sneaking (that can still be done, but it wouldn't be his main focus).

[liquidformat]

I have always liked the idea of the daggerspell gish but the class itself isn't great because it tries to push you towards melee gish with touch attacks and with d6 hd and lower ba that isn't the greatest choice.

Interestingly you could go into your build without any levels of rogue, take a look at beguiler as the base.
Beguiler 5
Unseen Seer 5
Arcane Trickster 10

The one weird thing here is the way US gives you sneak attack, since you don't have sneak attack to start with it becomes a bit of a question if it actually gives you sneak attack do to the wording of the damage bonus feature...

[Silly Name]

Isn't the whole point of Daggerspell Mage that you can channel your touch attacks in your daggers, thus getting around the low-BA issue? Assuming you have good Dex and take Weapon Finesse (and, honestly, why wouldn't you?) and get magic daggers, you become no worse at hitting things than any other rogue/arcane caster gish. Of course, five levels of arcane casting hurt...

By the way, taking Practiced Spellcaster (from Complete Arcane), I can go around the "arcane caster level 5th" requirement of Daggerspell and be a little less squishy. Rogue 2/Sorcerer 3/Daggerspell 10 would cover 14 levels, and then I can take 5 levels of Arcane Trickster for Ranged Legerdemain Impromptu Sneak Attack.

So, right now the build would be:
Human Rogue 2
Sorcerer 3
Daggerspell Mage 10
Arcane Trickster 5

Feats: Weapon Focus (Dagger), Two-Weapon Fighting, Practiced Spellcaster, Weapon Finesse, Arcane Strike, ???

I might also not take Daggerspell all at once, and intersperse it with AT levels, but this it would the character would look like, theoretically, at level 20.

Wasn't there a feat that let you cast in light armor without ASF? Or do I have to invest into a Twilight Mithral Armor?

Also, are there any good Sorcerer ACFs that would benefit this build? With just 3 Sorcerer levels, my familiar wouldn't get most of the goodies that'd make it powerful.

Edit: orrrr I could substitute Sorcerer with Beguiler, which grants me Armored Spellcaster and has better skill synergy, but I'd lose touch-attack spells, which then would make Daggerspell Mage underwhelming. Hrm.

Further edit: Would Stalwart Sorcerer be worth it? I don't know if the (weird) reduction spell known is too heavy a hit, but I'd get some extra health (not being squishy is good!), and I would get a free Weapon Focus, so I don't have to waste a feat on that, and can get Weapon Finesse earlier.

[PunBlake]

You could also dip Spellthief 1 and use the feat Master Spellthief (Complete Scoundrel) to enter Daggerspell Mage without Rogue. Master Spellthief will allow you to wear armor while casting with whatever base class you like.

[liquidformat]

You are right that using touch spells does make it easier to hit with lowered ba, I don't immediately think rogue gish when I think of melee, they are a bit squishy. Comically duskblade/rogue could make for an interesting entry point into daggerspell. I think Stalwart Sorcerer is probably worth taking if you are going to have 2 or more levels of sorcerer in your build, and like you said it gives you a feat which is nice.

Thistledown armor from races of the wild reduces spell failure.

[gkathellar]

I don't have much to add, but note that Daggerspell Mage doesn't actually become good at two-weapon fighting until 10th level in the PrC. Even double daggercast is only going to matter on the first round of combat. It's actually a decent class, but a little scattered and nonintuitive.


Isn't the whole point of Daggerspell Mage that you can channel your touch attacks in your daggers, thus getting around the low-BA issue?

It is, but be advised that there's a rules hole in how that works. The text states, "In addition, a daggerspell mage can deliver a touch spell with a dagger attack (either a melee touch attack or a normal melee attack, but not with a thrown dagger)." That leaves open the question of whether you get the dagger's full damage in addition to the effect of the touch spell as a melee touch attack, or simply its associated bonuses to hit and the ability to use ranged touch attacks in melee. There's no clear answer to this question, even by way of comparison: several other abilities let you channel a touch spell into a weapon strike, but all that I'm aware of specifically require a normal attack, rather than specifically allowing a touch attack. Likewise, applying unarmed strike damage to a touch spell requires a normal attack roll. If you go with DSM, you'll want to hammer out the specific reading you're using with your DM.

Either way, you do get an enhancement bonus to the attack roll for touch spells, so that's cool.

[Silly Name]

The way I interpreted that rule was that if I make a melee touch attack I do add weapon enchantment and weapon focus to the attack roll, but don't deal weapon damage. If I make a normal melee attack, I add weapon damage on top of the normal spell effect.

In any case, I'll be sure to check with the DM.

EDIT: I've actually noticed that Stalwart Sorcerer would grant Weapon Focus with a Martial Weapon, so no dice for me there. Looks like I'll have to blow that feat on Weapon Focus. Or take a level of Fighter in place of one level of Rogue, but I can't decide which would be worse.

[Awakeninfinity]

EDIT: I've actually noticed that Stalwart Sorcerer would grant Weapon Focus with a Martial Weapon, so no dice for me there. Looks like I'll have to blow that feat on Weapon Focus. Or take a level of Fighter in place of one level of Rogue, but I can't decide which would be worse.


Might this help (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) ?

I think Fighter would help with being less squishy.

[Silly Name]

The only reason I would consider taking a Fighter level would be because of the bonus feat, taking Weapon Focus (Dagger) as a Fighter Bonus Feat and using my standard feat progression for something else (either Metamagic or some Two-weapon fighting trick), so any variant that gives that up wouldn't be too useful.

[RaiKirah]

Do note that one of the primary reasons Unseen Seer is often put forward for precision gishes is that it gives you access to Hunter's Eye (PHBII) through Advanced Learning and boosts it. Divination spellcasting level can be pumped up pretty easily leading to quite a bit of extra sneak attack dice. Add in some persistamancy (1 level Cloistered Cleric with Planning, Knowledge, and Oracle Domains gets +3 Cl to divination spells without restriction to divine as well as Extend Spell. Add on Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic as well as Alternate Spell Source or Southern Magician and you're off to the races. Alternately take a level of Spelldancer; while Dodge and Mobility kinda suck there are ways to use them in a precision gish build) and you get a lot of extra damage as well as an enormous amount of out of combat utility from being a Divination specialist.

[gorfnab]

Here is a handbook that might help: Sneak Attacking Spellcasters (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1240)