Crossbowman Ranger vs Fighter

[Kharneth]

I'm considering making a Crossbowman out of a Ranger and was wondering if there's anything about a Ranger that is not compatible with a crossbow. I've seen some praise for crossbow battle masters, but I've never heard of a battle master with a longbow or a ranger with a crossbow instead of a longbow. Is that just preference?

The only thing I can see is the crossbow feat being more compatible with the fighter's excessive number of shots at higher levels.

This weekend I'll be playing in the Adventurer's League with my friend whose bringing a halberd-wielding battle master so I'm trying to avoid bring another fighter.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm considering making a Crossbowman out of a Ranger and was wondering if there's anything about a Ranger that is not compatible with a crossbow. I've seen some praise for crossbow battle masters, but I've never heard of a battle master with a longbow or a ranger with a crossbow instead of a longbow. Is that just preference?

The only thing I can see is the crossbow feat being more compatible with the fighter's excessive number of shots at higher levels.

This weekend I'll be playing in the Adventurer's League with my friend whose bringing a halberd-wielding battle master so I'm trying to avoid bring another fighter.

Mostly, it's Bonus Actions.

The Ranger archetypes usually have a large number of ways of using Bonus actions, and also have a ton of spells that use it (like rider spells or Hunter's Mark). Combined with the limited range needed for a crossbow, it kinda hurts, especially when taking account of the extended range of Ranger spells.

The Battlemaster has (I want to say) about 10 maneuvers that don't use your Bonus action, and so can be used by that extra shot.

In addition, the Fighter can make better use of Crossbow Expert with the number of Extra Attacks they get, so with something like a Heavy Crossbow, with 4 attacks, the difference between a Longbow (1d8, or 4.5 avg) and a Heavy Crossbow (1d10, or 5.5 avg) means you're getting about +1 damage/attack. A Fighter with 4 attacks would get +4 more damage/turn later on, where a Ranger with 2 attacks would only get +2/turn.

Personally, though, I don't think either benefits from Crossbow Expert as much as Rogue does, though. Doubling your number of attacks when you don't need to hide/dash/disengage is a great way to increase your damage output.

[Crgaston]

Edit: ninjas

You need Crossbow Expert to make more than one attack with a light or heavy crossbow regardless of whether it’s a Fighter or Ranger. Since Rangers tend to be slightly more MAD and Fighters get more ASI’s AND more attacks it’s less of an investment on a Fighter for a better return. Plus the longbow is more of an iconic Ranger weapon.

There’s no reason NOT to do a crossbow ranger if that’s what you want, though. Rangers have other abilities that boost their per-hit damage.

[Kharneth]

I'm confused about the bonus action references. What part of using a Crossbow requires bonus actions? I'm not talking about using a hand crossbow, but a heavy crossbow as a main weapon instead of the longbow.

I didn't notice that the crossbow has 50/200 less range than the Longbow, but how often are enemies actually more than 100 ft away? And then with sharpshooter will it ever matter?

Man_Over_Game, are you talking about dual wielding hand crossbows? Is that what crossbow battle masters usually use?

Crgaston, a fighter gets a lot of extra attacks and a Ranger only gets 1 extra attack, so the feat is buying more extra attacks for the fighter than the ranger, that's all I meant. The MAD aspect of the Ranger is part of what attracts me to it over the Fighter.

I guess I just want to make sure playing as a Ranger with a heavy crossbow isn't going to be noticeably worse than playing as a Ranger with a longbow. And I'm just curiously wondering why battle masters use crossbows instead of longbows, but perhaps it's because they're dual wielding hand crossbows.

[MThurston]

It takes two rounds to fire a crossbow. Doesnt matter how many attacks you get.

Taking Crossbow expert takes the loading part away. This allows you to load and fire whatever your attack is.

So it works well with Fighter at 5th level, Warlock at 5th level and Clerics with the War domain. It works well for rogues but not as good as the three I listed.

[MThurston]

I'm confused about the bonus action references. What part of using a Crossbow requires bonus actions? I'm not talking about using a hand crossbow, but a heavy crossbow as a main weapon instead of the longbow.

I didn't notice that the crossbow has 50/200 less range than the Longbow, but how often are enemies actually more than 100 ft away? And then with sharpshooter will it ever matter?

Man_Over_Game, are you talking about dual wielding hand crossbows? Is that what crossbow battle masters usually use?

Crgaston, a fighter gets a lot of extra attacks and a Ranger only gets 1 extra attack, so the feat is buying more extra attacks for the fighter than the ranger, that's all I meant. The MAD aspect of the Ranger is part of what attracts me to it over the Fighter.

I guess I just want to make sure playing as a Ranger with a heavy crossbow isn't going to be noticeably worse than playing as a Ranger with a longbow. And I'm just curiously wondering why battle masters use crossbows instead of longbows, but perhaps it's because they're dual wielding hand crossbows.

If you take Human variant it plays well from the start. Also crossbows do more damage.

As for fluff, people hunted boar with crossbows on the back of horses. You will be fine.

[Kharneth]

If you take Human variant it plays well from the start. Also crossbows do more damage.

As for fluff, people hunted boar with crossbows on the back of horses. You will be fine.

Oh, I wasn't worried about fluff. I'm not planning on building that kind of ranger.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm confused about the bonus action references. What part of using a Crossbow requires bonus actions? I'm not talking about using a hand crossbow, but a heavy crossbow as a main weapon instead of the longbow.

I didn't notice that the crossbow has 50/200 less range than the Longbow, but how often are enemies actually more than 100 ft away? And then with sharpshooter will it ever matter?

Man_Over_Game, are you talking about dual wielding hand crossbows? Is that what crossbow battle masters usually use?

Crgaston, a fighter gets a lot of extra attacks and a Ranger only gets 1 extra attack, so the feat is buying more extra attacks for the fighter than the ranger, that's all I meant. The MAD aspect of the Ranger is part of what attracts me to it over the Fighter.

I guess I just want to make sure playing as a Ranger with a heavy crossbow isn't going to be noticeably worse than playing as a Ranger with a longbow. And I'm just curiously wondering why battle masters use crossbows instead of longbows, but perhaps it's because they're dual wielding hand crossbows.

They're not exactly dual wielding the hand crossbows. With Crossbow Expert, you only need a single hand crossbow and you get to make the bonus action attack, so you'd end up with a free hand.

Actually, dual wielding hand crossbows is impossible unless both are already loaded. It requires a free hand to load a weapon with the Ammunition trait, so with both your hands filled, you'd only be able to fire a single shot from each before having to drop one and then sticking to one the entire fight, but with the Crossbow Expert feat, there's nothing stopping you from using one and just spamming with it anyway.

I don't see too many Battlemaster with Crossbows, anyway, most of them are melee combatants or using their extra feats for other stuff (like Sharpshooter). The reduced range I was mentioning was due to the shortened range of the Hand Crossbow, not the Heavy Crossbow, but I used the Heavy Crossbow to compare against the Longbow as an easy reference to compare cost-gain of the weapon upgrade.

Usually, though, nobody uses a Heavy Crossbow unless they either:

Only have a single attack while proficient in martial weapons (unlikely)
Have Crossbow Expert, but aren't close enough to use the Hand Crossbow


For a Ranger, a +1 damage per attack isn't worth it. The only thing that'd make it worth it is the Bonus Action attack of a Hand Crossbow, which gets in the way of some features like with the Horizon Walker, the Monster Slayer, or the Hunter archetypes, or any Ranger that uses ranged rider spells.

[Dudewithknives]

I'm confused about the bonus action references. What part of using a Crossbow requires bonus actions? I'm not talking about using a hand crossbow, but a heavy crossbow as a main weapon instead of the longbow.

I didn't notice that the crossbow has 50/200 less range than the Longbow, but how often are enemies actually more than 100 ft away? And then with sharpshooter will it ever matter?

Man_Over_Game, are you talking about dual wielding hand crossbows? Is that what crossbow battle masters usually use?

Crgaston, a fighter gets a lot of extra attacks and a Ranger only gets 1 extra attack, so the feat is buying more extra attacks for the fighter than the ranger, that's all I meant. The MAD aspect of the Ranger is part of what attracts me to it over the Fighter.

I guess I just want to make sure playing as a Ranger with a heavy crossbow isn't going to be noticeably worse than playing as a Ranger with a longbow. And I'm just curiously wondering why battle masters use crossbows instead of longbows, but perhaps it's because they're dual wielding hand crossbows.

Essentially it comes down to this:

1. You use a longbow and for your level 1 feat if human you take whatever you want and be fine, other than being in melee gives disadvantage. 1D8 + dex damage, also of note, the cheap but VERY amazing bracers of archery.

2. You use a single hand crossbow and have to take the feat Crossbow Expert to make it work but it lets you fire in melee without issue and give a bonus action attack. 1d6 + dex damage but bonus action attack

3. You use a single heavy crossbow and have to take the feat Crossbow expert to make it work but you can fire in melee.. the other part does nothing for you. 1d10 + dex damage

Most people use a hand crossbow because CBE gives a bonus action attack, and as sad as it is to say, a bonus action attack is simply the key to making a difference in combat.

I have never been a fan of base ranger, now revised ranger is a different story, however in AL play, good luck making it work.

[Man_Over_Game]

It takes two rounds to fire a crossbow. Doesnt matter how many attacks you get.

Taking Crossbow expert takes the loading part away. This allows you to load and fire whatever your attack is.


I'm not sure what you mean by "It takes two rounds to fire a crossbow". A crossbow requires a free hand to be reloaded with the Ammunition trait (and you're considered having a free hand while not attacking with a two handed weapon, so that's fine in most cases) and it has Loading which says you can only attack once per action type spent (so once per reaction/action/bonus action, but you can attack with all three in the same round, technically). So you can fire and reload a Hand or Heavy crossbow each turn (assuming you are holding no other weapons or items), but you can't fire and reload a Hand Crossbow while holding a Shield (since you won't ever have a free hand during your turn).

The Crossbow Expert feature removes the Loading portion, so you can get multiple attacks off of your Action, assuming you have Extra Attacks. There's nothing saying that Crossbows take more rounds to fire or load.

Judging some of the responses in this thread, I think there's a decent number of mechanical misconceptions regarding Crossbows in this forum.

In case people don't know, there is NO mechanical benefit from the Hand Crossbow being Light. Two-Weapon Fighting is ONLY for melee combat (as mentioned in the TWF rules section), and weapons with Ammunition require a free hand to be reloaded. There is NO WAY of using the Light feature on a Hand Crossbow unless your DM homebrews something for it (like Light weapons being easier to hide, or something). Either the Light feature was a typo, or Wizards of the Coast is planning on adding some more support for Light ranged weapons in the future, but for now, there's nothing.

[Damon_Tor]

I'm considering making a Crossbowman out of a Ranger and was wondering if there's anything about a Ranger that is not compatible with a crossbow. I've seen some praise for crossbow battle masters, but I've never heard of a battle master with a longbow or a ranger with a crossbow instead of a longbow. Is that just preference?

The only thing I can see is the crossbow feat being more compatible with the fighter's excessive number of shots at higher levels.

This weekend I'll be playing in the Adventurer's League with my friend whose bringing a halberd-wielding battle master so I'm trying to avoid bring another fighter.

The correct answer when it comes to archers is usually "Bard" in my experience, mostly because they get Swift Quiver at level 10 while Rangers get it at 17.

[jaappleton]

The correct answer when it comes to archers is usually "Bard" in my experience, mostly because they get Swift Quiver at level 10 while Rangers get it at 17.

As an alternative to Swift Quiver, examine the spell Holy Weapon. Lasts an hour, deals 2d8 radiant on all Weapon attacks.

[MThurston]

For some reason I thought I read that loading a crossbow was an action.

[Damon_Tor]

As an alternative to Swift Quiver, examine the spell Holy Weapon. Lasts an hour, deals 2d8 radiant on all Weapon attacks.

Damage boost is basically the same at face value, either +4d8 or +2d10+10. Swift Quiver jumps ahead when you have more damage you can add to each attack. I think the bigger issue is the bright light. Sure you can probably get more than one encounter out of it, but it kills your ability to sneak around. If you have another attack you can make with your bonus action (hand crossbow) then Holy Weapon is going to be superior. Depends on your needs, I guess.

But the point is the same: the bard's access to archery-boosting spells makes him a better archer than classes that don't.

[NaughtyTiger]

Hunter Ranger:
at level 3 you CAN choose Horde breaker (free attack on enemy next to you target)
at level 11 you CAN choose volley (free attacks on all enemies within 5ft of your target.)

so you can get more attacks than a fighter in certain conditions.

you would need xbow expert to fire any xbow more than once per turn( round?)

[lperkins2]

Hunter Ranger:
at level 3 you CAN choose Horde breaker (free attack on enemy next to you target)
at level 11 you CAN choose volley (free attacks on all enemies within 5ft of your target.)

so you can get more attacks than a fighter in certain conditions.

you would need xbow expert to fire any xbow more than once per turn( round?)

With hunters mark, or sharpshooter, the extra attacks from Horde Breaker are often the way to go. I've seen the hand crossbow using ranger, and the damage output against low AC enemies is sick. With horde breaker, you can clean up mooks really fast, since they usually have relatively low AC. Horde breaker, Extra Attack, Haste (from a friend), and the hand crossbow bonus action attack gets you 5 attacks a round at level 5, assuming you have two targets close together.

You can fire a crossbow more than once per turn without Crossbow expert, via action surge or haste, or something else which let you attack as a bonus action (Swift quiver). The loading property just limits the number of attacks per action (or bonus action or reaction) to one (similarly to how haste specifies only one attack possible regardless of the Extra Attack feature). Features which let you take extra actions or use a bonus action to attack still work.

[jaappleton]

Damage boost is basically the same at face value, either +4d8 or +2d10+10. Swift Quiver jumps ahead when you have more damage you can add to each attack. I think the bigger issue is the bright light. Sure you can probably get more than one encounter out of it, but it kills your ability to sneak around. If you have another attack you can make with your bonus action (hand crossbow) then Holy Weapon is going to be superior. Depends on your needs, I guess.

But the point is the same: the bard's access to archery-boosting spells makes him a better archer than classes that don't.

I agree it’s dependent on your overall build. If you have Sharpshooter, then SQ. And yes, HW means you aren’t stealthing. At all.

[Damon_Tor]

I agree it’s dependent on your overall build. If you have Sharpshooter, then SQ. And yes, HW means you aren’t stealthing. At all.

I would think Elemental Weapon is a better choice than Holy Weapon in most circumstances. The damage is 2d4 instead of 2d8 (with a level 5 slot) but you also get +2 to the attack. It has the longer 1 hour duration of Holy Weapon, but it doesn't spoil your chances at getting surprise. And the ability to choose your damage type means you can tailor your damage to what you're fighting, use its vulnerabilities more frequently.

But again, moot point, since the subject is "what class is best" not "what spells are best". These are choices only a bard will be facing.