Goblins, Hobgoblins and orcs (Oh my!)

[SpanielBear]

Hey all,

This is a lore question, essentially.

So the campaign I'm currently involved in, I'm taking the opportunity to dispose of a large amount of Warhammer and other modelling stuff I've acquired by making minis for our game. As well as making our pc's, I've been working with the DM to produce various non-spoilery npc's and mooks. Generic bandits, Orcs, Goblins and I've got some hobgoblins ready to paint.

Here's my question though- I know in Faerun (and specifically Faerun) Orcs and Goblins are different species. No worries there. I've used different models and different shades of green and that works fine. However, the hobgoblin models are a bit in the middle, so painting them needs to make them distinct. Lore-wise, are hobgoblins goblins? Or an Orc off-shoot? Or something completely different from both?

The orcs I've painted are dark green, the goblins bright almost lime-green (because why not (and because Baldur's Gate, now I think about it.)). The hobgoblins could lean to either of those extremes, or go somewhere completely different, but staying internally consistent would be ideal.

All help appreciated!

[TheCleverGuy]

My understanding is that goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears are all related. Orcs, as you said, are something different.

[Willie the Duck]

And hobgoblins tend to be more of a brown-to-russet-red instead of greenish.

[sknymick]

If you're making a Warhammer translation, Goblins would be Goblins/Grots/Snottlings/Gretchin. Orcs would be... Orcs. Hobgoblins don't have an equivalent in the WH universe that I'm aware of. They're almost a Gobo/Human hybrid. From the wiki:

In the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy roleplaying game, hobgoblins are a larger, stronger, smarter and more menacing form of goblins. They are smaller and weaker than bugbears, but better organized. Hobgoblins are humanoids that stand nearly 6'6" tall on average, a little taller than orcs. Smarter than other goblinoid races, they are renowned for their brutality and military skill.

[Anonymouswizard]

Goblinoids in D&D traditionally come in three subspecies.

Goblins are small, crafty, and all the other stuff. They're normally small, a deep green, and all that other stuff.

Hobgoblins are the closest to human sized, disciplined, and militaristic. Where goblins are armed with clubs hobgoblins fight in formation with spear and shield. They're normally a dull red or red-brown. If you ever pass Wychwood you'll find they make excellent beer (although it should not be served chilled, afraid of a little taste?).

Bugbears are, for want of a better description, big sneaky brutes. They're much hairier than goblins or hobgoblins, brown skinned, and dress in furs.

Hair is normally depicted as black on all varieties.

Orcs are generally a separate 'species' to the goblinoids. They have the build of a bugbear on the height of a hobgoblin, more pig like faces (although the snouts seem to be relatively small), and grey or green-grey skin.

In my setting orcs are to humans as bugbears are to hobgoblins (halflings are the goblins). Or one of then at least, O have several without orcs or goblinoids.

[LudicSavant]

Just for fun:



It is clear that elves, men, and orcs are members of a single species. Dwarves and gnomes, while unquestionably related, have completed speciation and do not interbreed as members of the H. sapiens subspecies do. But halflings are more closely related to elves and humans than the most recent common ancestor of dwarves and gnomes, which creates this phylogenetic tree:

https://i.stack.imgur.com/GHT9S.png

It is evident that the gigantism of humans is an innovation not present in the basal demihuman.

The only remaining issue is the placement of elves and orcs relative to humans. Casual study suggests many similarities between elves and humans, but the anthropological literature [T54] suggests that elves and orcs are quite closely related and thus these superficial similarities are merely the result of convergent evolution between elves and the human outgroup.

[T54]: J. R. R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings (1954).

[SpanielBear]

Thanks for the answers all!

Separate species and reddish skin seems to be the consensus. I'll give it my best shot!



Hobgoblins (...) If you ever pass Wychwood you'll find they make excellent beer (although it should not be served chilled, afraid of a little taste?).


I should definitely have remembered this...

[Unoriginal]

D&D 5e Goblins aren't green-skinned. They're yellow-orange-ocre.

That's VERY different from the Warhammer ones.

Hobgoblins are orange-ish too, with some of them having a bright blue nose.

Orcs are grey, sometime greenish grey.

[Anonymouswizard]

D&D 5e Goblins aren't green-skinned. They're yellow-orange-ocre.

Huh, could have sworn the ones in the 3.5 monster manual were dull green. Makes them more in line with other goblinoids I suppose.

Going by the 2e Monstrous Manual Bugbears are yellow-brown with brown or brick red fur, goblins are yellow, orange, or red with tribes normally being the same colour, and hobgoblins are dark reddish brown to dark grey, males have blue or red noses.

From the same book orcs vary in appearance, but are normally grey-green and hairy, have snouts, large canines, pointed ears, and eyes that glow red. Actually looking through the 2e MM most of the creatures are significantly duller colours compared to 4e (not seen the 5e monstrous manual and it's been years since I saw 3.5's).

[SpanielBear]

Aye, I was well aware of the orc/goblin difference. As it happens, it’s not the regular orc and goblin warhammer models I’m using; they felt a bit too cartoony and immersion breaking. I’m using khorne cultist models for orcs (big conan-like lads with 2-handed axes, painted green and given a nose job), and the Moria goblins from LotR. Hobgoblins I’m using LotR orcs- the scale means they are a little smaller than human size, while still being much bulkier than your average gobbo.

Also, blue noses? Really?

[hamishspence]

Warhammer did have hobgoblins at one point - they were either wolf-riding warlords (Hobgobla Khan, from the Dogs of War White Dwarf articles) or sneaky backstabbers.

[Unoriginal]

Huh, could have sworn the ones in the 3.5 monster manual were dull green. Makes them more in line with other goblinoids I suppose.

Nope, they were brown-yellow-orange in all editions except 4e. Where they were bright green.

Though some goblins were blue.



Also, blue noses? Really?


BLOODY BLUE NOSES
Hobgoblins are sometimes born with bright red or blue noses. This attribute is thought to be a sign of potency and potential. Blue-and red-nosed hobgoblins receive preferential treatment, and as a result they occupy most of the leadership positions in hobgoblin society. The noses of all hobgoblins become more colorful when they are enraged or excited, much the way that humans' cheeks can flush with emotion.

Volo's Guide to Monsters p.46.

[hamishspence]

Nope, they were brown-yellow-orange in all editions except 4e. Where they were bright green.


I think 3e sources did mention "greenish-yellow" as a possible goblin colour. 4e's goblins were varying shades of green - some fairly dull:


Green tends to be seen as the "default" goblinoid colour even if that's not the official line. I mean, this is the official WOTC picture:
http://wizards.com/dnd/images/Monster_gallery/103.jpg


and as I recall, some yellowish-green.

3.5 Tasloi aren't goblins in the strictest sense - but they're implied to be closely related - and worship the goblin deity Maglubiyet - and are green:

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/ssouth_gallery/84376.jpg

Maybe that was where 4e goblins derived from?

[JackPhoenix]

There are also vague asian influences creeping back to the aesthetic of hobgoblin armor, like with the original 1e hobgoblins. The influence wasn't really there for most of the past editions, with the exception of Eberron:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/9/90/Hobgoblin_Warlord-5e.png/revision/latest?cb=20171011030221
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/eb_gallery/82118.jpg

Note that the later looks closer to an 3.5 orc than 3.5 hobgoblin (greenish color, lower jaw sticking too far forward and too big tusks, and nose being just nostrils), but you can blame that on the artist.


Maybe that was where 4e goblins derived from?

I'd look at (World of) Warcraft instead... lot of influence on 4e aesthetics comes from there.

[hamishspence]

Note that the later looks closer to an 3.5 orc than 3.5 hobgoblin (greenish color, lower jaw sticking too far forward and too big tusks, and nose being just nostrils), but you can blame that on the artist.


Thanks to imgur, your image didn't work for me. Maybe you can find it on the 3.5 D&D art archive page?

Maybe it's this one?

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/eb_gallery/82118.jpg

[JackPhoenix]

Thanks to imgur, your image didn't work for me. Maybe you can find it on the 3.5 D&D art archive page?

Maybe it's this one?

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/eb_gallery/82118.jpg

Yep, that's the one. Wasn't aware of the issue for some users, updated the previous post accordingly. Thanks for the heads-up!

[hamishspence]

Thanks for the heads-up!



Notable 3e-3.5e Hobgoblin images:

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM5_Gallery/106311.jpg
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM5_Gallery/106310.jpg

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/rof_gallery/49748.jpg

[Anonymouswizard]

I'd look at (World of) Warcraft instead... lot of influence on 4e aesthetics comes from there.

Yeah, that actually explains all the '4e is like an MMO' more than any breakdown of the mechanics. TBH WoW has had a lot of influence on fantasy aesthetics in the last decade and a half (like D&D has for the last four decades).