Is Mysthical Theurge with Sorcerer and Shugenja a thing?

[FauLen]

Hi guys. I'm a novice player on rpg at all and I'm facing a lot of doubts about building my character. I'm already a Half-Drow (my DM "made" this class so we could use a class with a CHA +2) Sorcerer 5. Due to some errors I had in my sheet, my DM said that I could change my spells list, but not "too much".

I'm looking for a build with a good PrC. Looking at the complete divine I saw a PrC called Mystical Theurge and I wondered if it was strong with a Sorcerer/Shugenja, could you help me to find a good build? We're playing Eberron, with the Campaing Setting, PHB 1 & 2, Monster 1, 2, 3 and Completes: Arcane, Adventurer, Divine, Warrior and Scoundrel.

My actual build is like this:

HP: 23
STR: 11; DEX: 14; CON: 14; INT: 13; WIS: 12; CHA: 22

Feats:
1- Eschew Materials
3- Toughness
5- Heighten Spell ( I think I could ask DM to change this)
Extra Feat - Enlarge Spell (I can change this)

Spells:

0 - Detect Magic, Light, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message, Touch of Fatigue
1 - Shield, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Floating Disk
2 - Scorching Ray, Scare



So, thats it. I dunno what I'm looking for, specifically, but I want a character that other people would fear him. I don't know if a Mystical Theurge could do that.

[weckar]

If your feat selection and build is normal for your table, a Shugenja Mystic Theurge would be perfectly appropriate. Normally it is considered quite weak to enter into normally, though. Its main problem is that while you are taking Shugenja levels your sorcerer abilities are not getting better. The relative power difference slowly repairs as you take more Mystic Theurge levels, but never really fully mends.

[FauLen]

If your feat selection and build is normal for your table, a Shugenja Mystic Theurge would be perfectly appropriate. Normally it is considered quite weak to enter into normally, though. Its main problem is that while you are taking Shugenja levels your sorcerer abilities are not getting better. The relative power difference slowly repairs as you take more Mystic Theurge levels, but never really fully mends.

The other players and DM use to Power Play a little... Because of that I'm looking for a "powerfull" build where I could fit. I'm feeling that my Ace (my character's name) is a little too weak or I'm playing soooo wrong haha. I'm not looking for the BIG AND GREATEST BUILD EVER IN THE ENTIRE PLANET but I want a strong one, to level with the rest of the group.

EDIT: My friends that are playing pointed this same problem with the sorcerer level that would never be "full".

[weckar]

Could you describe what the rest of your group plays, so we could get a sense for what power level your are looking for?

[FauLen]

Could you describe what the rest of your group plays, so we could get a sense for what power level your are looking for?

I dont know about their builds but all of them are "fighters". I think they're all strong, cuz they can do a lot of dmg per turn.

There's two Extra Feats Class (Warriors) (one Warrior 5 and the other one is a Warrior 3 with lycantropy), a Rogue 5 and a Ranger 5. I know that it doens't help but it's all I have.

My biggest problem is that we're all chaotic and neutral/evil, so we're not a really united team, we're trying to bond now but it is escalating slowly and I'm afraid to impose opinions and one of them decide to attack me (what the rouge almost did twice). Even though I have a really high CHA status I can't try to lead or impose more opinions.

[noob]

The main question when theurging is: "is there is many spells I want from both of those lists" because you will not get the class features of the classes but just the casting.
If you decide to be a pure shugenja or a pure sorcerer you will have spells always one level higher than a mystic theurge of those classes.

Also if you only want a few spells from the shugenja list you can use prestige to get a shugenja to cast the needed spells or to get scrolls or wands of the needed spells instead of going mystic theurge.
Also while sorcerer seems a good class it is really hard to play because once you picked some spells you basically can not change the choice so if you messed up at a level up you can be very annoyed for a few levels.

Also spontaneous cleric is nearly purely better than shugenja and you can get many of the good sorcerer spells through domains so if there is not a lot of sorcerer spells that interests you then it is an option that will give you more spells you can cast spontaneously than your choice of mystic theurging.

And if you really really want tons of spells from both lists then there is a solution that is a bit special which is of going into pure shugenja and taking magical training for getting a spellbook then you can use versatile spellcaster to cast spells from the spellbook and then you can write the sorcerer spells you want in the spellbook and cast them spontaneously with your shugenja casting.

Archivists can learn all the spells ever provided they exist as divine spells and there is alternate class features allowing to possibly convert any arcane spell into divine spells so archivists can therefore learn all the spells ever and then if an archivist takes magical learning to gain the ability to cast spells spontaneously he can take versatile spellcaster and cast any spell he wrote in his prayerbook spontaneously.

Spell to power erudites can learn any spell as a power and then they can use any power they know until they used too many different powers in a given day but that cap grows fast and each day you can cast different powers so with a spell to power erudite you can cast any spell or power as a power.

[Yuki Akuma]

A Sorcerer/Shugenja/Mystic Theurge will be much more powerful than any of those classes.

Just don't focus solely on damage. Take some utility and buff spells too.

Also never take Toughness. Ever. +3 HP is a complete waste of a feat. Heighten Spell is good - ask your DM if you can retrain Toughness instead. :smalltongue:

If you're gong to be focused on metamagic, might I suggest Metamagic School Focus (Complete Mage, p. 45, prerequisites: Spell Focus, effect: lower the metamagic cost by 1 for spells of the chosen school) or Easy Metamagic (Dragon #325, prerequisite: any metamagic feat, effect: lower the metamagic cost of one metamagic feat by 1, to a minimum adjustment of 1)? Those will help offset the slower spell level gain of Theurging, allowing you to use metamagic on spells sooner.

[noob]

A Sorcerer/Shugenja/Mystic Theurge will be much more powerful than any of those classes.

Just don't focus solely on damage. Take some utility and buff spells too.

Also never take Toughness. Ever. +3 HP is a complete waste of a feat. Heighten Spell is good - ask your DM if you can retrain Toughness instead. :smalltongue:

A spontaneous cleric is much more good at utility than that mysthic theurge through greater number of spells accessed at a given time and is way less original or weird.
A spontaneous cleric can decide "tomorrow we will need breath water oh I did not take it but it does not matters I am going to change my domains and then get a domain that have that spell or simply use the spell domain then use anyspell"
while that mysthic theurge is out of luck if it does not have breath water as a sorcerer or shugenja spell.

[Yuki Akuma]

A spontaneous cleric is much more good at utility than that mysthic theurge through greater number of spells accessed at a given time and is way less original or weird.

So? He wants to play a Sorcerer/Shugenja.

It's not as if he needs to thoroughly optimise a Tier 1 double 9s build or anything with his current party members.

[noob]

So? He wants to play a Sorcerer/Shugenja.

He could get the same spells with less book keeping and have higher level spells and higher number of spells known at once and nothing forbids refluffing.
Also none of my suggested options were about getting double ninths.

So if he wants to have someone attuning to the elements and focusing it through its own body he could play a spontaneous cleric and get some elemental domains and then say it is a shugenja with blood from magical ancestors: there will not be many discordance in the spells and it will sidestep the whole "two spell lists now it is time to pick spells from two different paradigms in such a way you will not under-perform oh and you can not change your decisions".

While his party contains rather low op characters the opponents risks to be of medium power if played with the encounter descriptions and a phase spider doing exactly what it is described to do is problematic with a caster that have an hard time getting level appropriate spells and other monsters can be even more problematic even if they do exactly what they are described to be supposed to do.

Yes someone can play a sorcerer shugenja mystic theurge but you could as well play a totemist binder wizard bard cleric archivist druid barbarian scout warblade crusader ardent erudite and you might even perform above average after spending 4 hours preparing varied stuff and getting out spreadsheets and counting 50 bonuses that triggers at varied moments or that you pick up at the morning and can change at many moments and at each turn you might have an action that have an interest among a list of 50 different possible actions.
I think most builds that gives options are fun to play but it is easier to play if you have all the options with a single class.

[Nifft]

Hi guys. I'm a novice player on rpg at all and I'm facing a lot of doubts about building my character. I'm already a Half-Drow (my DM "made" this class so we could use a class with a CHA +2) Sorcerer 5. Due to some errors I had in my sheet, my DM said that I could change my spells list, but not "too much".

I'm looking for a build with a good PrC. Looking at the complete divine I saw a PrC called Mystical Theurge and I wondered if it was strong with a Sorcerer/Shugenja, could you help me to find a good build? We're playing Eberron, with the Campaing Setting, PHB 1 & 2, Monster 1, 2, 3 and Completes: Arcane, Adventurer, Divine, Warrior and Scoundrel.
(...)
So, thats it. I dunno what I'm looking for, specifically, but I want a character that other people would fear him. I don't know if a Mystical Theurge could do that.

You're already level 5, and that's rather late to start Mystic Theurge. You're uncertain about Mystic Theurge -- you want to be scary, and you don't particularly care about being a Mystic Theurge unless that makes you scary.

Don't take Mystic Theurge. It'll make you weaker (but more flexible), better at support (but worse at being scary).

How to be scary:

1 - Political Power. Dump bad feats (especially Toughness); take Least Dragonmark (Mark of Making). Now you're a legal representative of House Cannith, some of the scariest mo'-fo's in the setting.

2 - Magical Power. Drow are from Xen'drik in this setting, and Xen'drik is a continent with some solid magical options -- specifically the Primal Scholar class. Take the Mysterious Magic feat (which is a prerequisite) and your spells will look unsettling.

3 - Feats Which Scare. You can take feats which allow you to scare people. Some of these are even good choices. Mastery of Dreams (PGtE, level 6) gives your Illusions and [Fear] spells +1 DC, which isn't bad. Live My Nightmare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm#liveMyNightmare) (SRD/UA, level 1) isn't in your listed sources but it's going to make you scary to powerful foes. Fearsome Necromancy (CMage, level 3) has a prereq of Spell Focus: Necromancy, but if you're going to take stuff like Scare it might be worthwhile. Draconic Presence (CArc, level 3) has a prereq of Draconic Heritage, but that's a decent feat anyway for other benefits. Draconic Presence gives you a free Fear effect every time you cast a spell. Intimidating Strike (PHB2, Intimidate 4) could be useful with a Touch spell, to debuff a target for the whole encounter.

4 - Dread Witch. This is a class from Heroes of Horror which is all about taking your own fear and making other people experience it. It's reasonably well balanced (costs 1 spellcasting level to get in), and it suits your theme. It's also available at ECL 5 -- you could be a Sorc 4 / Dread Witch 1 right now, and then advance into Dread Witch as you go forward.

5 - Nightmare Spinner. This class is from Complete Mage, so it's probably legal, but you can't enter it until you have level 3 spells (so ECL 7 at the earliest). It's better for Wizards since it's got an extra slot each level for preparing illusions; as a Socrerer, you can cast one extra Illusion spell at each spell level, but you have to spend spells-known slots on enough illusion spells for that to matter. Still, it's not actually bad for a Sorcerer, and if you can get into Shadowcraft Mage somehow then the extra Illusion slots become gold. Generally I'd give this class a miss and take Dread Witch instead.


Are you evil? The Escalation Mage is a powerful PrC for Eberron spellcasters who venerate the Shadow. You could start at ECL 6 (next level).

[FauLen]

Also spontaneous cleric is nearly purely better than shugenja and you can get many of the good sorcerer spells through domains so if there is not a lot of sorcerer spells that interests you then it is an option that will give you more spells you can cast spontaneously than your choice of mystic theurging.



Yeah, I tought about getting cleric levels but my Wis is really low (13) and I don't think that this is going to work with a key ability that low.




Also never take Toughness. Ever. +3 HP is a complete waste of a feat. Heighten Spell is good - ask your DM if you can retrain Toughness instead. :smalltongue:

If you're gong to be focused on metamagic, might I suggest Metamagic School Focus (Complete Mage, p. 45, prerequisites: Spell Focus, effect: lower the metamagic cost by 1 for spells of the chosen school) or Easy Metamagic (Dragon #325, prerequisite: any metamagic feat, effect: lower the metamagic cost of one metamagic feat by 1, to a minimum adjustment of 1)? Those will help offset the slower spell level gain of Theurging, allowing you to use metamagic on spells sooner.

I'm going to ask him but I'm not sure if he will let me change this, specially because it's a feat I got on lvl 3.


So? He wants to play a Sorcerer/Shugenja.

It's not as if he needs to thoroughly optimise a Tier 1 double 9s build or anything with his current party members.

I don't really WANT to play Sorcerer/Shugenja. I just thought that a caster that could cast divine and arcane spells, both with CHA modifier, would be OP.


He could get the same spells with less book keeping and have higher level spells and higher number of spells known at once and nothing forbids refluffing.
Also none of my suggested options were about getting double ninths.

So if he wants to have someone attuning to the elements and focusing it through its own body he could play a spontaneous cleric and get some elemental domains and then say it is a shugenja with blood from magical ancestors: there will not be many discordance in the spells and it will sidestep the whole "two spell lists now it is time to pick spells from two different paradigms in such a way you will not under-perform oh and you can not change your decisions".

While his party contains rather low op characters the opponents risks to be of medium power if played with the encounter descriptions and a phase spider doing exactly what it is described to do is problematic with a caster that have an hard time getting level appropriate spells and other monsters can be even more problematic even if they do exactly what they are described to be supposed to do.

Yes someone can play a sorcerer shugenja mystic theurge but you could as well play a totemist binder wizard bard cleric archivist druid barbarian scout warblade crusader ardent erudite and you might even perform above average after spending 4 hours preparing varied stuff and getting out spreadsheets and counting 50 bonuses that triggers at varied moments or that you pick up at the morning and can change at many moments and at each turn you might have an action that have an interest among a list of 50 different possible actions.
I think most builds that gives options are fun to play but it is easier to play if you have all the options with a single class.

I got your point. It's really dificult to play when you put a lot of combos and specific interactions and sinergy with feats, skills and etc, at least for a newbie player like me. I get really aroused by this things but it's quite a headache for me too, cuz I get so doubtful about my choices about the build that I can't even chose anything by myself.


________________________________________

But my biggest problem isn't if the class is viable, is about the match with my purpose. I want a PrC and a combo of skills and feats that make me powerfull, fearable, respected. Something strong that people would fear. I also read about Acolyte of the Skin and it looked promising but after reading it completely I figured out it sucked. I'm really trying do search and improve my options and knowledge, but are too many things to choose that I can't decide which is strong and which isn't.


EDIT:


You're already level 5, and that's rather late to start Mystic Theurge. You're uncertain about Mystic Theurge -- you want to be scary, and you don't particularly care about being a Mystic Theurge unless that makes you scary.

Don't take Mystic Theurge. It'll make you weaker (but more flexible), better at support (but worse at being scary).

How to be scary:

1 - Political Power. Dump bad feats (especially Toughness); take Least Dragonmark (Mark of Making). Now you're a legal representative of House Cannith, some of the scariest mo'-fo's in the setting.

2 - Magical Power. Drow are from Xen'drik in this setting, and Xen'drik is a continent with some solid magical options -- specifically the Primal Scholar class. Take the Mysterious Magic feat (which is a prerequisite) and your spells will look unsettling.

3 - Feats Which Scare. You can take feats which allow you to scare people. Some of these are even good choices. Mastery of Dreams (PGtE, level 6) gives your Illusions and [Fear] spells +1 DC, which isn't bad. Live My Nightmare (SRD/UA, level 1) isn't in your listed sources but it's going to make you scary to powerful foes. Fearsome Necromancy (CMage, level 3) has a prereq of Spell Focus: Necromancy, but if you're going to take stuff like Scare it might be worthwhile. Draconic Presence (CArc, level 3) has a prereq of Draconic Heritage, but that's a decent feat anyway for other benefits. Draconic Presence gives you a free Fear effect every time you cast a spell. Intimidating Strike (PHB2, Intimidate 4) could be useful with a Touch spell, to debuff a target for the whole encounter.

4 - Dread Witch. This is a class from Heroes of Horror which is all about taking your own fear and making other people experience it. It's reasonably well balanced (costs 1 spellcasting level to get in), and it suits your theme. It's also available at ECL 5 -- you could be a Sorc 4 / Dread Witch 1 right now, and then advance into Dread Witch as you go forward.

5 - Nightmare Spinner. This class is from Complete Mage, so it's probably legal, but you can't enter it until you have level 3 spells (so ECL 7 at the earliest). It's better for Wizards since it's got an extra slot each level for preparing illusions; as a Socrerer, you can cast one extra Illusion spell at each spell level, but you have to spend spells-known slots on enough illusion spells for that to matter. Still, it's not actually bad for a Sorcerer, and if you can get into Shadowcraft Mage somehow then the extra Illusion slots become gold. Generally I'd give this class a miss and take Dread Witch instead.


Are you evil? The Escalation Mage is a powerful PrC for Eberron spellcasters who venerate the Shadow. You could start at ECL 6 (next level).

I'm Chaotic Neutral, but our party is a little bit of evil I guess. I mean, we're not going out destroying things and killing people but, for sure, we're not heroes neither good people. About the classes and feats from other books, our DM just let us pick things from the books I mentioned. He could open more books but not right now. About the Dragonmark, my DM doesn't allow us to use the dragonmark and psionic things on Eberron (dunno why).

Escalation Mage seems promissor, I would like it, I think. I wasn't thinking about fear like this, like a Blackguard. I was thinking in a fear like respect. People would respect/fear me because of my great powers and maybe the "dark" nature of them. Our DM introduced a Overlord thing in this campaing (because my character apearence is exactly the same of Mare Bello Fiore) and now I want to be something "dark" but not like all my character would be focused on this... you know?

[weckar]

I think you may want to work in the direction of Mindbender. Opens up some neat OP tricks early on, and is easy to get into. It allows mindsight too.

[noob]

It is true that a sorcerer going into mindbender then using mindsight is scary.
"You can not hide for I can feel your thoughts"
Then with magical training you can get a spellbook and then with versatile spellcaster you will be extremely polyvalent.
It goes this way:
Sorcerer 5/mindbender 1/ either more sorcerer or another prc.
first feat: versatile spellcaster.
second feat (gained at level 3): magical training.
third feat: mindsight (gained at level 6 so you qualify since you have a level in mindbender)

Afterwards you can take any option you want that progress sorcerer spellcasting at each level and you will be necessarily scary due to being a sorcerer that can spot you because you think.

Of course you can graft yourself eyes or an undead arm(ps: undead arms do not have to replace your current arms so you can have more than two arms) or fiendish wings if you want physical scariness to top that.

[FauLen]

I think you may want to work in the direction of Mindbender. Opens up some neat OP tricks early on, and is easy to get into. It allows mindsight too.


It is true that a sorcerer going into mindbender then using mindsight is scary.
"You can not hide for I can feel your thoughts"
Then with magical training you can get a spellbook and then with versatile spellcaster you will be extremely polyvalent.
It goes this way:
Sorcerer 5/mindbender 1/ either more sorcerer or another prc.
first feat: versatile spellcaster.
second feat (gained at level 3): magical training.
third feat: mindsight (gained at level 6 so you qualify since you have a level in mindbender)

Afterwards you can take any option you want that progress sorcerer spellcasting at each level and you will be necessarily scary due to being a sorcerer that can spot you because you think.

Of course you can graft yourself eyes or an undead arm(ps: undead arms do not have to replace your current arms so you can have more than two arms) or fiendish wings if you want physical scariness to top that.


OK. THIS IDEIA IS REALLY GOOD. I'm sad that I can't do it with my actual char cause I can't change my first feat, but I'll do it to another one for sure.

[Nifft]

second feat (gained at level 3): magical training.

That feat is from the Player's Guide to Faerûn.

Why would it be available in this Eberron game?

[noob]

Versatile spellcaster can be taken at any level.
One of the main interests is that you can use it to cast any spell you know with two spell slots one level lower than the spell which means you can use it for having more mid level spells or more high level spells.
It means that if you have a spellbook from magical training then since spells in the spellbook are known spells you can cast them with versatile spellcaster so afterwards you can write the arcane spells you want in the spellbook and be able to cast them.
Note that writing spells in a spellbook costs fast quickly.
I can link the feats I suggested as well as the mindbender(mindbender is a very special prestige class: the requirements are easy to meet and only the first level is good to take since if you take the next levels in mindbender it does not progress your spellcasting) so that you can understand more the requirements.

http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/mindbender

https://dndtools.net/feats/lords-of-madness--72/mindsight--1960/

http://dnd.arkalseif.info/dndtools/feats/races-of-the-dragon--83/versatile-spellcaster--3057/

http://dnd.arkalseif.info/dndtools/feats/forgotten-realms-campaign-setting--19/magical-training--1833/

magical training is a Forgotten Realms feat so you can not get it sorry.

Versatile spellcaster is still good if you can not use a spellbook.
Also there is probably somewhere another way to get a spellbook or at worse if you want unlimited polyvalence after level 18(at which a sorcerer already have level 9 spells) you can get one single level in wizard and thus have a spellbook.

grafts are rather expensive but some are quite cool looking.

http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=12562.0

Here is a list of grafts.
The comments on them are based on using a full bab class for most offense grafts and a sorcerer does not have an use for offense grafts.

[HouseRules]

Be a Human or a Race with Bonus Feat.
Versatile Spell Caster + Heighten Spell.
Sorcerer 1/Shugenja 1/Mystic Theurge 1.

Of course, many would say that Caster Level 3 is required to Height a Spell from Spell Level 1 to Spell Level 2.

[Nifft]

Be a Human or a Race with Bonus Feat.
Versatile Spell Caster + Heighten Spell.
Sorcerer 1/Shugenja 1/Mystic Theurge 1.

Sadly that fails, since Versatile Spellcaster doesn't create a higher-level slot.

If it did work, that would make Sorcerers a little better than they currently are.

[Saintheart]

That feat is from the Player's Guide to Faerûn.

Why would it be available in this Eberron game?

Also can't be gained at level 3, for what it's worth, that particular is restricted down to the start of your career.

[ericgrau]

I dont know about their builds but all of them are "fighters". I think they're all strong, cuz they can do a lot of dmg per turn.

There's two Extra Feats Class (Warriors) (one Warrior 5 and the other one is a Warrior 3 with lycantropy), a Rogue 5 and a Ranger 5. I know that it doens't help but it's all I have.

My biggest problem is that we're all chaotic and neutral/evil, so we're not a really united team, we're trying to bond now but it is escalating slowly and I'm afraid to impose opinions and one of them decide to attack me (what the rouge almost did twice). Even though I have a really high CHA status I can't try to lead or impose more opinions.

At your group's level of optimization it sounds like mystic theurge will be a bit weak. Plain old sorcerer with good spell choices will be better. Or with one of the other prestige classes mentioned that goes well with sorcerer. I searched for some old threads and found these:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14181042&postcount=7
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=5724987&postcount=9

You could also search the forums for a good spell list.


At level 5 for example I would take:
1 (4): Mage armor, unseen servant, magic missile, feather fall
2 (2): Web, bull's strength.

Cast mage armor and unseen servant ahead of time. Likewise cast bull's strength in the morning but have your familiar hold the touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#duration). Have your familiar tag one of your buddies with bull's strength round 1 of a fight. Also in round 1, right after that, web if possible to disable 1+ foes. Keep webbing or finish off foes who are almost dead or very hard to hit with magic missile. Your unseen servant may assist in grabbing important light objects, pulling levers, opening doors, etc. Notice how you are denying enemy actions while you are taking 2-3 actions in a single turn via your familiar and unseen servant. And that's not counting the mage armor you also cast ahead of time. The sheer amount of stuff you do while preventing some foes from doing anything can overwhelm an encounter.

If you are allowed spell compendium then some good choices include (best first) nerveskitter, swift expeditious retreat, and benign transposition (swap position of allies and/or familiar). I would replace feather fall (1st) and magic missile (2nd) with these. Notice how now we're up to a possible 4th action in the case of the first two spells. It's nuts.

Since you're not allowed to change your spell list "too much", the first spells to ditch would be scorching ray, scare, floating disk, then shield. Normally I'd call scorching ray at least ok, but you don't even have a good dex nor precise shot, nor are you level 7 yet. And for other spells level 1 lacks good alternatives. So for you scorching ray tops your list of carptastic spells. With your cha scare could be a poor substitute for web, so if you are only allowed to ditch scorching ray you could replace it with bull's strength.

At level 6 I would pick up sleet storm or haste. Sleet storm is beyond awesome outdoors or in huge rooms to instantly disable 1 or several foes for multiple rounds. It's an instant-win button. In rooms less than 60' across you can't really use it. But that's the perfect time for a web, so it's a good combo to have both. Haste will greatly increase the damage of your allies and is a good round 1 spell in almost every fight. So it is weaker than sleet storm but still super powerful and always or almost always useful (unlike sleet storm). Also don't forget at level 6 you may swap one of your level 1 spells for something better. Level 7 I would take false life (cast in morning like mage armor), or if you have spell compendium swift fly: And then drop swift expeditious retreat on level 8 or never take it in the first place. For level 1 take another of the other level 1 spells mentioned.

I would also get 1-2 scrolls each of several level 1 utility spells, since they're only 25 gp each. For example obscuring mist to flee, caster level 3rd tenser's floating disk (75 gp each) to carry stuff, enlarge person to buff the other players during buff rounds before combat (NOT after combat starts). Etc. Note you can't buff (or cast anything) while your familiar is holding a bull's strength; you need to have him pop the buff right before you cast another buff. But you can do both in the same pre-combat round.

[Particle_Man]

I think Sorcerer can work well just as, well, Sorcerer. You might want to look at this guide:

That said, the Malconvoker in Complete Scoundrel can be a fun prestige class if you are into summoning (just take Summon Monster III as a known spell when you can), and your Sorcerer would have the Charisma and Bluff as a class skill (assuming you are not evil).

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528090-Mastering-the-Malconvoker

Another option is Wild Mage if you take the practiced spellcaster feat.

[Mordaedil]

Being a Sorcerer/Shugenja/Mystic Theurge isn't going to make you OP, but with your part of fighters that deal a lot of physical damage, I don't think you'll be really screwed over either. The general rule seems to be that taking this multiclass merging PRC is often considered a bad idea because you have to spend a few levels behind where a caster of your level would normally be at. There's a few ways around that, but you should really only consider that if you end up feeling like you can't keep up with the others.


First, if there are any other casters on your team, you will feel outpaced. If there are none, you are set. Consider asking your DM if taking practiced spellcaster gave you an effective +4 to your caster levels in all respects (this is a huge power boost for that feat and he might shut that down immediately) as it is normally not a recommended feat to take otherwise.

If there is another caster at the table, just focus on playing your single class to your best ability. If you look far enough out there, you can find plenty of options to have your sorcerer do healing, for instance. Take the Touch of Healing feat, learn the spell Undying Vigor of the Dragonlords and boom, you can heal forever.

[PunBlake]

As someone who has played a dual caster (Druid / Sorceror / Arcane Hierophant) from 1 to 20 and is currently playing a Shugenja from 1 to 8, it can work. You're mostly a buffer on the Shugenja side (Earth and Air have great buff spells). Sorceror will offset that "disadvantage." Being a dual caster means you have a wider pool of potential magic actions to draw from, but the pool is shallow instead of deep. In endgame, you end up with an Olympic swimming pool that you will almost never drain of magical power instead of a deep well that can run dry.

Once you get Haste, especially in a party with mostly physical damage, your single casting of Haste each combat will carry every encounter, and your Sorceror blasting will finish off anything your party doesn't turn into mincemeat with Haste. Before you get level 3 spells, though, you will feel weak in comparison to bruisers. The power spike from gaining a higher level of spells is real, and once it happens, your party will respect you. Don't worry about that. Decide whether you're getting enough advantage out of the expanded spells known Shugenja offers in the long run that it's worth losing some 9th level spells known and feeling weak (delaying higher level spell access) for more game time.

Side note: The Arcane Fusion spells in Complete Mage are your friends.

[HouseRules]

Sadly that fails, since Versatile Spellcaster doesn't create a higher-level slot.

If it did work, that would make Sorcerers a little better than they currently are.

Precocious Apprentice is banned by RAI from satisfying the requirement for early entry. All other forms of early entry also do not create level 2 spell slots, so they are also equally invalid as Versatile Spellcaster.

[Nifft]

Precocious Apprentice is banned by RAI from satisfying the requirement for early entry. All other forms of early entry also do not create level 2 spell slots, so they are also equally invalid as Versatile Spellcaster.

Not sure either of your assertions are true.

Precocious Apprentice has trouble with early entry because it collapses into a bonus spell known when you get level two spells in your other class, but it's perfectly fine for dual-progression with a non-caster as the other side -- e.g. Cerebremancer.

Versatile Spellcaster could work if you knew a level 2 spell at level 1 (and you could cast it), but Heighten Spell doesn't help you meet that criteria. It's a failure of a combo.

Heighten Spell can work -- for example, Heighten Spell + Earth Spell is solid for early entry on a prepared spellcaster, but not a Sorcerer.

The reason I brought up slots is because Heighten needs a higher-level slot in order to be useful. Versatile Spellcaster can't generate a spell-slot, it can only cast a spell you know. The combination of Versatile Spell + Heighten Spell doesn't work. The need to generate a higher-level slot is specific, not general -- the failure to generate a slot (and thus the failure to get use from Heighten Spell) is specific to this poorly-thought-out combo, not a general problem.

[Fouredged Sword]

I am going to second Malconvoker. Summon monster 1-9 is a competitor for "most powerful and useful spell" at every spell level. Getting twice the number of monsters and free extend AND all the creatures you summon having free buffs... It just makes a solid spell really really powerful.

Your solution to problems becomes "throw a demon at it", yes, but that simplicity has uses.

It also can be constrained to 11 spells known (assuming you want to use planer binding/greater planer binding).

-

Also, check Unearther Arcana for feat retraining rules. They are optional, but theu exist as written rules. If that fails, pay a psion for a casting of psychic reformation as that will allow you to reasign the feat and psionics play a big role in Eberon. In fact, I suggest Psy reform. It will let you reasign your spells known at the same time if you want to make adjustments.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Not sure either of your assertions are true.

Precocious Apprentice has trouble with early entry because it collapses into a bonus spell known when you get level two spells in your other class, but it's perfectly fine for dual-progression with a non-caster as the other side -- e.g. Cerebremancer.

Versatile Spellcaster could work if you knew a level 2 spell at level 1 (and you could cast it), but Heighten Spell doesn't help you meet that criteria. It's a failure of a combo.

Heighten Spell can work -- for example, Heighten Spell + Earth Spell is solid for early entry on a prepared spellcaster, but not a Sorcerer.

The reason I brought up slots is because Heighten needs a higher-level slot in order to be useful. Versatile Spellcaster can't generate a spell-slot, it can only cast a spell you know. The combination of Versatile Spell + Heighten Spell doesn't work. The need to generate a higher-level slot is specific, not general -- the failure to generate a slot (and thus the failure to get use from Heighten Spell) is specific to this poorly-thought-out combo, not a general problem.

I mean, "X method of early entry violates RAI" seems like a completely reasonable statement to me, if not the most general possible statement. I say this as one can easily say that all forms of early entry violate RAI. Early entry is, by its very definition, not intended under the rules.

[Fouredged Sword]

RAI is also a table to table call. RAW is as well to a degree, but much less so.

[Nifft]

I mean, "X method of early entry violates RAI" seems like a completely reasonable statement to me

It's a reasonable way to play your game, but it's a bit foolish to assert that it applies equally to every game.

It's also a bit ironic to see the same person post "all tricks are against RAI" right after trying to claim that his Versa-fail trick was able to get level 3 entry:

Be a Human or a Race with Bonus Feat.
Versatile Spell Caster + Heighten Spell.
Sorcerer 1/Shugenja 1/Mystic Theurge 1.

He's wrong that all early entry is invalid.

If he actually cared about RAI, would he have suggested that Versa-fail trick?

[HouseRules]

Heighten Spell
( Player's Handbook v.3.5, p. 95)

[Metamagic]

You can cast a spell as if it were a higher-level spell than it actually is.
Prerequisite

Required for

Earth Spell (RS) , Improved Heighten Spell (EL) , Talfirian Song (Rac) ,
Benefit

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. For example, a cleric could prepare hold person as a 4th-level spell (instead of a 2nd-level spell), and it would in all ways be treated as a 4th-level spell.


Spell Slots? Wait, Heighten could only be used for Prepared Spell Casters?

[SLOTHRPG95]

It's a reasonable way to play your game, but it's a bit foolish to assert that it applies equally to every game.

It's also a bit ironic to see the same person post "all tricks are against RAI" right after trying to claim that his Versa-fail trick was able to get level 3 entry:


He's wrong that all early entry is invalid.

If he actually cared about RAI, would he have suggested that Versa-fail trick?

Yeah, I'm not at all trying to defend his assertions as a pair. Nor do I wish to speculate as to the degree to which he falls on the pro-RAI side of the RAW vs. RAI dichotomy. I'm just saying that his first assertion (namely that Precocious Apprentice early entry violates a reasonable reading of RAI) is not categorically false.

Separately, I'm more than happy to argue that yes, early entry tricks necessarily violate RAI, period. No question of application to one game or another necessary. I also know that's a rather controversial statement, and one with which many would be happy to argue against. However, this seems beyond the scope of this thread.

[Nifft]

Separately, I'm more than happy to argue that yes, early entry tricks necessarily violate RAI, period. No question of application to one game or another necessary. I also know that's a rather controversial statement, and one with which many would be happy to argue against. However, this seems beyond the scope of this thread.

I think there's a spectrum from "light dusting of romano" to "deep baked roquefort", and each group's tolerance will vary.

I also think that Mystic Theurge wasn't half as good as the designers feared, and so getting into it mildly early (at ECL 5 or so) is quite reasonable.

Finally, I think Mystic Theurge screws Sorcerers worse than they deserve. IMHO a Sorc 4 / Shugenja 1 / MT++ would be perfectly fine, and a Wizard 3 / Cleric 2 / MT++ would be equally acceptable to me.

[SLOTHRPG95]

I think there's a spectrum from "light dusting of romano" to "deep baked roquefort", and each group's tolerance will vary.

I also think that Mystic Theurge wasn't half as good as the designers feared, and so getting into it mildly early (at ECL 5 or so) is quite reasonable.

Finally, I think Mystic Theurge screws Sorcerers worse than they deserve. IMHO a Sorc 4 / Shugenja 1 / MT++ would be perfectly fine, and a Wizard 3 / Cleric 2 / MT++ would be equally acceptable to me.

Oh yeah, I have no doubt that lactose tolerance varies greatly group to group. I am just saying that as far as I understand RAI, the designers were fully (or nearly fully) lactose-intolerant. And had no lactase pills.

Separately, yeah MT wasn't nearly the OP machine that designers feared, but then again, nor were a lot of other things like Favored Soul. Furthermore, I have no problem ignoring RAI (or RAW, for that matter) and house-ruling things as I see fit to "fix" game design to work like I want it to at my table. Early entry isn't my cup of tea, but that's neither here nor there when I say that I find it to not be RAI. I'd just use more idiosyncratic methods to compensate for things like (for example) the pain that a Sorcerer feels in becoming an MT. Separately, I generally ban monks at my table. Is that RAW or RAI that players aren't able to pick one of the core classes? Definitely not. The two discussions though, i.e. whether it's in the rules vs. whether it's group policy, are largely unrelated.

[ericgrau]

I also think that Mystic Theurge wasn't half as good as the designers feared, and so getting into it mildly early (at ECL 5 or so) is quite reasonable.
Oddly enough when MT was released, it was many of the players that thought having two casting classes was crazy OP. After all, one is strong enough. I saw it in person and, IIRC, in forums too. IIRC wizards.com articles explained why it wasn't as OP as it seemed; but I'd have to check the archives to be sure.

Yeah it is quite weak from CL 5 (right when you should get precious 3rd level spells but don't) to CL 7 (right before 3rd level spells). And mediocre CL 8-9. You have to be level 8 for it to be barely playable and level 10 before it just starts to be decent. After that there are several level 3-4+ spells that are useful even into high level and it's totally fine as-is. The problem is you have to put up with 5 levels of suck right in the sweet spot of levels where many campaigns play.

So allowing early entry isn't that bad of idea, or some other solution to deal with the early problems. CL 5 is nice because you get your 3rd level spells at CL 7 and only suffer mildly for 2 levels. Even for those 2 levels you aren't that far behind. But being behind only 1 spell level starts to get a little too strong for most groups shortly afterwards. Probably by CL 11 when you have the craziness of dual 5th level spells and not having 6ths isn't a huge drawback. It's not much worse than the original MT and super high optimization will prefer a single class with a higher spell level, but it is a bit scary powerful for casual groups. I have my own house rules that help early and not as much later, but that's a bit of a tangent.

In any case all of this is clearly against the intent of MT and is house rule territory. A trick that might make a so-so house rule is still a trick. That's not a good justification. Not necessarily saying Nifft is doing this, but people need to quit playing around and just make a house rule. You'll be able to get more of what you want with the direct approach anyway.