Control weather as an apocalypse tool

[Resileaf]

Ignoring the level requirement of 14 to cast the spell, how viable is control weather as a tool of devastation? Let's say that a group of druids decide they want bring to death and destruction to a large zone, and for some reason don't have access to stronger spells, so they spread around a territory, and cast control weather to summon hurricanes, thunderstorms, whatever else is fitting. Considering the time the spell lasts, it seems as though as long as the druids live, they can pretty much keep the area they live in constantly living under the shadows of hurricanes.

[Sto]

Unless the entire radius of the spell is either corrupted land or a city that has grown to big, I doubt they'd do it. Mechanically though, constant hurricane level storms would be quite apocalyptic, and you'd certainly get what you're going for. Blighters and storm clerics would have all sorts of fun creating the storms.

[Resileaf]

I was thinking of a more modern setting. Druids in the industrial age, absolutely horrified at the polution and devastation caused by the spread of factories all over the place.

(Basically a future campaign I'm preparing, and want to involve some big schemes for the future.)

[Sto]

I was thinking of a more modern setting. Druids in the industrial age, absolutely horrified at the polution and devastation caused by the spread of factories all over the place.

(Basically a future campaign I'm preparing, and want to involve some big schemes for the future.)

So a bunch of druids that decided to press the reset button via storms? I can't say what that sounds like, but I like it as a plot device a lot.

[Silva Stormrage]

Constant hurricane level winds would just absolutely level pretty much any human settlement after a bit. At the very list prevent it from being livable.

Also a side note that might help flesh this concept out the vampire lord (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a) template grants control weather at will as an SLA. That means they can cast it as a standard action. Maybe a druid got turned and started worshiping a much more "Natural Selection" style of nature worship and thought that industry was allowing the weak to prosper too much.

Or you could just refluff the vamprie lord template to suit your needs.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Factories would start getting built underground pretty quickly, I'd think.

[Rebel7284]

If you are playing in a modern setting, you don't really need druids for vastly increased hurricanes. That happens naturally as an effect of global warming. True, it's not constant, but it's probably enough to greatly mess with civilization. I guess we'll find out in 30-50 years!

[Bucky]

Control Weather will let you devastate a few square miles per day. How many druids do you have and how big is your civilization?

[hamishspence]

Constant hurricane level winds would just absolutely level pretty much any human settlement after a bit. At the very list prevent it from being livable.

Also a side note that might help flesh this concept out the vampire lord (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a) template grants control weather at will as an SLA. That means they can cast it as a standard action.

No matter how quickly you cast it, the weather itself still takes 10 minutes to manifest once the casting is done:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWeather.htm

[Resileaf]

Factories would start getting built underground pretty quickly, I'd think.

Well 'quickly' is not how I would think factories can be built. Seems like quite the endeavour. Also doesn't help surface cities.


Control Weather will let you devastate a few square miles per day. How many druids do you have and how big is your civilization?

I haven't gotten that far. I'm planning ahead for later campaigns, and I wanted to know how well something like that would work.
Besides, you only need half a dozen druids or so to completely wreck a region, considering civilization tends to be clustered rather than spread evenly all over their territories. Sure, it might not do that much damage to, say, a zone the size of the continental United States, but as recent history shows, hurricanes are a huge problem for the regions hit and the devastation will cost billions of dollars to repair.

[Silva Stormrage]

No matter how quickly you cast it, the weather itself still takes 10 minutes to manifest once the casting is done:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWeather.htm

Sure but it still helps spamming it in multiple locations if you can just walk, concentrate a bit then have a hurricane hit a few minutes later.

Makes it a lot harder to stop than a 10 minute ritual. Which might be a downside as rushing to stop the next ritual works better for D&D encounters.

[liquidformat]

No matter how quickly you cast it, the weather itself still takes 10 minutes to manifest once the casting is done:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWeather.htm

So what happens if the whether has already 'manifest' and you are just casting it again to maintain it? Seems like by RAW you have to start casting 20 min before the previous one ends?

[Lapak]

Well 'quickly' is not how I would think factories can be built. Seems like quite the endeavour. Also doesn't help surface cities.
Also doesn't help (or at least would be prohibitively expensive) in certain terrains or regions. I'd hate to try building an underwater factory in Venice, for example. And if you're druids trying to disrupt the modern industrial economy, making something prohibitively expensive serves your purpose just as well anyway.

[Selion]

If you are playing in a modern setting, you don't really need druids for vastly increased hurricanes. That happens naturally as an effect of global warming. True, it's not constant, but it's probably enough to greatly mess with civilization. I guess we'll find out in 30-50 years!

WHAT IF actually a druid cult was messing with our climate from the 19th century to fight industrial revolution?

[OgresAreCute]

WHAT IF actually a druid cult was messing with our climate from the 19th century to fight industrial revolution?

And the same cult infiltrated WotC during 3.5e development and made their class really OP!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well 'quickly' is not how I would think factories can be built. Seems like quite the endeavour. Also doesn't help surface cities.I said they'd start being built quickly, not that they'd finish that way.

[liquidformat]

This is how/why the underdark is discovered... Crazy druids destroy everything so everyone moves underground!

hmm sounds like terminator and the matrix except replace robots with tree huggers.

[Arcane_Secrets]

Wouldn't one option be for the druids to just _prevent_ rainfall with control weather with a long string of bright sunny days so no snow or rain happened? Especially in a D&D type setting wouldn't that be even more devastating considering that this would literally dry up a water source for all of the downstream communities?

[noob]

Wouldn't one option be for the druids to just _prevent_ rainfall with control weather with a long string of bright sunny days so no snow or rain happened? Especially in a D&D type setting wouldn't that be even more devastating considering that this would literally dry up a water source for all of the downstream communities?
Control weather have a limited radius so you would need to cast it a ton of times before covering enough ground for preventing agriculture by bringing water from somewhere else.
Even then since water is not explicitly destroyed by control weather it might mean that the more you do that the more it would rain where there is no control weather until there is literally a giant pillar of water towering in space in the last place where there is no control weather(actually it would be quite weird since water would only fall here and then would go around and evaporate).
also another problem is that we would basically need a druid able to cast that spell every 56 square mile(assuming we can have no overlap in the circles which makes no sense) for covering the entire planet.
Also it would be infinitely more devastating to the ecosystem than any tornado could be to cover the entire planet in control weather and is the kind of apocalypse druids try to prevent.

[Deophaun]

Control weather doesn't work as an apocalypse tool. Your hurricanes are not only limited to particular seasons, but also particular terrain (coasts).

Then you have the problems of a ten minute casting time, a readily identified epicenter, and anyone in the massive area with access to dweomer vortex can auto-dispel it.

And now druids are outlawed and their forests will burn.

[Troacctid]

I mean, this is basically the plot of the Princes of the Apocalypse adventure path.

[unseenmage]

I mean, this is basically the plot of the Princes of the Apocalypse adventure path.

And basically the entire campaign setting for DragonMech.
Lunar rain... magic hurricanes... either way seeking shelter from a devastated surface becomes necessary.


Also, how lame would it be if the mega hurricane in Pathfinder's world of Golarion (the Eye of Abendago, I think?) was just some dude sitting and concentrating on an enlarged maximized etc Control Weather spell.

[Silva Stormrage]

Control weather doesn't work as an apocalypse tool. Your hurricanes are not only limited to particular seasons, but also particular terrain (coasts).

Then you have the problems of a ten minute casting time, a readily identified epicenter, and anyone in the massive area with access to dweomer vortex can auto-dispel it.

And now druids are outlawed and their forests will burn.

Vampire Lord -> Supernatural Transformation or regular druid + heighten spell prevents the issues with dweomer vortex as it can only dispel 6th level spells or lower. Heighten it to 7th via metamagic or similar options and that would work.

Also Hurricanes are just one example. Spamming out tornados or massive sleet storm would also work to effectively shut down factories or daily life in a city. Might even work better than for a campaign plot.

[Particle_Man]

If this is Pathfinder, then I think that high level earth kineticists can learn to use earthquake at will. Buildling factories underground won't be such a fun option anymore.

[Fizban]

I was expecting some kind of plan to chain reaction things, like messing with the weather over a certain area to block moisture or heat transfer, ruining a much larger area that depends on a narrow portion. Which would probably still require far more than one could really set up without at-will uses and teleports.

If all you want to do is level the current civilization, you don't even need Control Weather, because Control Winds will get you a plenty wide area of hurricane or tornado force winds instantly and precisely. In fact, I'm pretty sure Control Weather can't even create an actual hurricane given that Wikipedia is telling me even the smallest eye is 1.9 miles across and overall sizes range from around 60-1,200 miles. That's why they're so devastating in the first place: areas that can be described in degrees of latitude. Control Weather hits an area 4 miles across, 8 Enlarged, not enough to actually produce a hurricane.

Leveling major population centers is a cinch with Control Winds and Stormwalk, but actually driving the widely dispersed population (so most of it) out is going to be a lot harder. The best I think you could manage with Control Weather is camping all the major mountaintops that feed them, keeping them from retaining any snowpack so the rivers dry up. That would spread the moisture into rain instead, so it wouldn't drought the crops, but it might let you mess with multiple cities indirectly. Unless the moisture just drifted right back into the area you're thawing and rained continuously and kept the rivers full that way. And the area you'd have to thaw would probably still require a lot of castings. I would guess that people would have no problems getting solutions for storing rain if they didn't already have some what with their lives depending on it, so they won't be dying of thirst even if you do dry up the rivers.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's higher level, but Frostburn's fimbulwinter would do a better job at messing up weather patterns, given its miles-wide Area and weeks-long Duration, especially if you can plug up a funnel-shaped mountain pass with lots of unseasonable snow, especially if that pass has a lot of spring storms that pass through that are a major source of water for the lands beyond. Suck all the moisture out of the air and physically block the clouds from going through, and suddenly you have a potential drought brewing over a much larger area than the immediate one around the caster.

[Deophaun]

Vampire Lord -> Supernatural Transformation or regular druid + heighten spell prevents the issues with dweomer vortex as it can only dispel 6th level spells or lower.
This is not true. The text is that after it has dispelled 6 levels of spells, it stops. It can easily dispel a 9th level spell, as long as it hasn't dispelled 6 levels worth of spells before that.

[Resileaf]

First, the vampire lord looks OP as hell. It's like a Lich on steroids that are themselves on steroids.

Second, I've made some decisions on how I want the thing to go. I would use this plan for a Warcraft setting, as part of a conflict between Night elves and goblins (for context, night elves are like wood elves, but even more savage, while Warcraft goblins are industrious little buggers whose entire species is portrayed as having the sole traits of 'likes money' and 'likes explosions').
As the goblins favor small city-states over large kingdoms, the radius of the spell is less an issue, as it would be less devastating for surrounding areas while remaining targeted on the elves' target.

Thanks for all of your advice and comments. Helped build up the idea into something more solid.

[Zancloufer]

This is not true. The text is that after it has dispelled 6 levels of spells, it stops. It can easily dispel a 9th level spell, as long as it hasn't dispelled 6 levels worth of spells before that.

Actually;


. . . Any spell or spell-like ability of 3rd level or lower that targets you or that has you within its area is automatically countered.
. . .

So any spell or SLA that is effectively 4th or higher is just outright immune to Dweomer Vortex. Also Control Weather is a 7th level spell to start with.


Control Weather also lasts 8d12 hours as a Druid and has a 3 mile radius. For a Druid if it lasts about 48 hours of 3 mile wide tornado centered on you that is a lot of damage. Simply walking for 24 of those 4 hours ends up flattening about 290 square miles or so. While it might not be apocalyptic even a single druid could level multiple cities in a week.

[Deophaun]

Actually;
Actually, you need to keep reading. The main clue that what you quoted doesn't apply is that it uses the word "countered," when I'm talking about dispelling.

[Zancloufer]

Actually, you need to keep reading. The main clue that what you quoted doesn't apply is that it uses the word "countered," when I'm talking about dispelling.

Hmm missed that part. Though it sounds like some RAW abuse that a spell that outright states it can only counter spells up to 3rd level if they target you but if you target the spell there is no limit.

I mean you ARE likely in the middle of the AoE for Control Weather and it is a 7th level spell so you cannot auto-counter it. But if you spend a swift action to target yourself you can all of a sudden effect a 7th level spell? Also with no save or opposed check to do so? I don't think there is any other dispelling/magic countering spell or effect that has no upper limit on the power of effects that it can end. Especially a 3rd level spell.

I feel this is a case of bad writing or RAW vs RAI.

[Resileaf]

I should have probably mentionned that I play Pathfinder and not 3.5. Dweomer vortex does not appear to exist in Pathfinder.

[noob]

In pathfinder you can still use disjunction but it is very hard to cast it a lot of times because there is not many people able to cast that spell.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

But if you spend a swift action to target yourself you can all of a sudden effect a 7th level spell?You can only effect the spell if you cast it yourself.


ef·fect
/əˈfekt/
verb
cause (something) to happen; bring about.

"nature always effected a cure"

synonyms: achieve, accomplish, carry out, realize, manage, bring off, execute, conduct, engineer, perform, do, perpetrate, discharge, complete, consummate

[Fizban]

It's higher level, but Frostburn's fimbulwinter would do a better job at messing up weather patterns, given its miles-wide Area and weeks-long Duration, especially if you can plug up a funnel-shaped mountain pass with lots of unseasonable snow, especially if that pass has a lot of spring storms that pass through that are a major source of water for the lands beyond. Suck all the moisture out of the air and physically block the clouds from going through, and suddenly you have a potential drought brewing over a much larger area than the immediate one around the caster.
Well sure, but Fimbulwinter is just easy mode and the OP specified nothing more powerful than Control Weather (and it turns out they're doing PF specifically, though there are Warcraft setting books, but those are hard to find). The cl 20 extended+ rod enlarged version can hit an area 80 miles across for around a year, enough that the xp cost doesn't even need to be negated and you can choke off rivers by just freezing all the moisture permanently instead. And there's a definitive magic item version without the metamagic that just never stops. With that kind of range and duration it should become feasible to create a desert in the shadow of the curtain, using the Fimublwinters as an artificial mountain range. Fimbulwinter spam is apocalypse class, just not Control Weather, unless you can spam a lot harder.

[Resileaf]

Well sure, but Fimbulwinter is just easy mode and the OP specified nothing more powerful than Control Weather (and it turns out they're doing PF specifically, though there are Warcraft setting books, but those are hard to find).

I do have the Warcraft RPG books. Well, those that were available to buy anyway. I also know where to read the pdfs of the books so I have the entire series available.
In any case, I use Pathfinder because it's more versatile and balanced. Warcraft RPG has two completely useless classes, so it's much more fun to play with a more modern book, converting Warcraft stuff on the fly where needed.

[Silva Stormrage]

I do have the Warcraft RPG books. Well, those that were available to buy anyway. I also know where to read the pdfs of the books so I have the entire series available.
In any case, I use Pathfinder because it's more versatile and balanced. Warcraft RPG has two completely useless classes, so it's much more fun to play with a more modern book, converting Warcraft stuff on the fly where needed.

Plus all the warcraft books are now non canon so thats another aspect to consider.

If you are playing pathfinder Witches can get control weather as a major hex at 10th level. It requires an hour to cast but frankly you can just have a witch burrow under the town and cast the effect. It's not too hard to disguise.

Here is an item that grants 1/day control weather (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/orb-of-storms/)

Hag Covens (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/hag/) can also work together to spam out control weather. Refluff as needed for night elven druids.

An Anemos (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/anemos/) could be refluffed as one of the nature gods of the night elves. Perhaps Aviana. They have control weather and control winds at will as SLA's.

Here (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/hag/winter-hag/) is the lowest CR monster with Control Weather as an SLA that I found. Helps that it is also a Hag. Refluff as needed.

Hope some of those help.

[unseenmage]

...

Here (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/hag/winter-hag/) is the lowest CR monster with Control Weather as an SLA that I found. Helps that it is also a Hag. Refluff as needed.

Hope some of those help.

And of course its THE most broken hag to use in a coven IIRC. Beware Simulacrum as a SLA for more hags for more sims.
To infinity, and beyond.

[Florian]

how viable is control weather as a tool of devastation?

Hm. Speaking about a modern setting, that will depend on how the actual laws and infrastructure of a country are. For example, contrast building in Germany vs. the USA, you'll find that DE comes across at extremely expensive, but the standard here is earthquake, flood, hurricane and ice age safe, so to say. Building a house like they can do over in the U.S. would be an absolute no-go, while other countries would liken our basic building laws to some heavy-duty bunkers. Based on experience, my hometown suffered a lot of abuse in the last year, starting with a "heavy rain" that managed a downpour of 25% our yearly rain in 12h, followed up by some hurricanes and a major drought, non of which did any real lasting damage.