Drow Elf Necromancer

[Lady Bly]

I have been invited to join in with a group playing 5e, and I have an idea to play a Drow Elf that aspires to use Necromancy to "make friends" and meet new and interesting people.

I can see playing it one of a number of ways but -- as I am not entirely familiar with 5e -- I would really appreciate any advice.

I have not met up with the group yet -- and I have not received clearance from the DM to play such a character, but he has indicated that he wants everyone to draw up fresh/new characters.

Basically, I see it as one of the other of these:

1. Female Drow Elf Cleric - worshipping either Lolth or Eilistraee

2. Male Drow Elf Mage

Either way works for me as I would think that both are interesting starters. I have no preference(s) for any alignment.

I'd really appreciate any input.

Thanks!

[Millface]

My input here is always that it just isn't worth trying necromancer in 5e. They work on paper, but in practice not so much.

Having said that... the only viable Necromancer is the Wizard. Every other class that gets the necessary spells either doesn't come online as an actual "summoner" until the second half of the game, or their minions are essentially worthless.

The Necromancer can be incredible on paper, assuming you're allowed to actually bring 20 minions with you wherever you go. That's the issue. Undead have a negative stigma, you can't fit enough minions in some dungeon areas to actually pace other characters usefulness, and your turns in combat get wacky and take forever.

Minus the naysaying (it frustrates me that summoners aren't more viable, because I love them thematically), my advice is Necromancer Wizard.

[Lady Bly]

My input here is always that it just isn't worth trying necromancer in 5e. They work on paper, but in practice not so much.

Having said that... the only viable Necromancer is the Wizard. Every other class that gets the necessary spells either doesn't come online as an actual "summoner" until the second half of the game, or their minions are essentially worthless.

The Necromancer can be incredible on paper, assuming you're allowed to actually bring 20 minions with you wherever you go. That's the issue. Undead have a negative stigma, you can't fit enough minions in some dungeon areas to actually pace other characters usefulness, and your turns in combat get wacky and take forever.

Minus the naysaying (it frustrates me that summoners aren't more viable, because I love them thematically), my advice is Necromancer Wizard.

Thanks for this.

My own view is that the mage would be far easier to play in terms of fast advancement -- but I am open to any ideas here. I am rather partial to playing it as the cleric.

My own thinking is that, if we limit the number of followers to a reasonable number, we can hopefully make it less unwieldy -- and playing the cleric would make those limits more likely.

I also have ideas for "hiding" the undead followers if we go into a town, etc. As far as using them in dungeons, we could work that out too.

[Man_Over_Game]

The main issue with being the Cleric is that, unless your DM is allowing you to pick the Death Cleric (which isn't an official class, but is used as an example as a homebrew villain class in the Dungeon Master's Guide), there's just not enough support to raise undead.

The Warlock might be able to be an option, but suffers from the same issues that the Cleric does. Wizard is the only viable way to go.

One solution that people have used for the Necromancer is to not rely on melee units. Build your skeleton army into archers, so that they do not suffer issues trying to maneuver around each other.

[Temperjoke]

Mordenkainen's Tome introduces Kiaransalee, who is a drow goddess of vengeance and undeath, so your drow could be a worshiper of that particular goddess while being a wizard. The book also highlights Zinzerena, a goddess of illusion and magic. MToF also talks about Malyk, a god of rebellion and chaos, who causes wild mages to appear among the drow, who are then targeted for death by other drow attempting to demonstrate allegiance to Lloth.

The nice thing about that third option is that it explains why your drow would have no problem fighting other drow, or why they're not in the Underdark (if necessary), they're an outcast.

EDIT: I guess the main purpose of my post is that you don't have to be a cleric to be a worshiper of a god/goddess that likes magic/undeath.

[Millface]

Right, if you're going to do it, the way to go about it is to do Necro Wizard, Skeleton Archers, at least a 14 CHA, and Inspiring Leader.

At 5 you get 2 3rd Level slots, both of which you use to raise 2 Skeletons each. Then you use a slot the next day to reassert control on those 4 and raise 2 more, then continue using both slots to maintain your 6 Skeletons. So, it takes two days to get to your max number for the purposes of having to replace them if you lose them. They also get the extra HP and damage from Wizard, making them quite viable at this level.

A Cleric would have to raise 2 Skeletons the first day. 2 the second, then 1, 1, and 1. At 5, you're maxed, because if you use a slot to raise another, you can't reassert control on number 5.

The set up takes days, not rounds, that's why Necro and Inspiring Leader are important. You don't want to be losing these guys all the time.

As you level, in order to keep up with the damage of your fellow heroes, your army will have to get bigger, the skeletons don't really get better, just more numerous. Once you get Create Undead you can have a couple bigger guys and maybe 8 Skeletons as your main army without getting too terribly ridiculous. A dice rolling app, if your DM allows it, could make the attack rolls far easier. You can set it up to roll all 10 at once, and even set up the damage rolls and save those as templates for easy access to speed things up.

I always like a portable hole for storage, toss it on a wall in combat and they crawl out. Later, Demiplane is a tricky neat way to do it. You can have 30 some minions shoulder to shoulder, Cast Demiplane with your 8th Level slot to store them, your 9th level slot to unleash them. I did play a level 17 Necro once. Unfortunately I very often used my 8th and 9th level slots for other things that were just better for the situation.

[Lady Bly]

Mordenkainen's Tome introduces Kiaransalee, who is a drow goddess of vengeance and undeath, so your drow could be a worshiper of that particular goddess while being a wizard. The book also highlights Zinzerena, a goddess of illusion and magic. MToF also talks about Malyk, a god of rebellion and chaos, who causes wild mages to appear among the drow, who are then targeted for death by other drow attempting to demonstrate allegiance to Lloth.

The nice thing about that third option is that it explains why your drow would have no problem fighting other drow, or why they're not in the Underdark (if necessary), they're an outcast.

EDIT: I guess the main purpose of my post is that you don't have to be a cleric to be a worshiper of a god/goddess that likes magic/undeath.

One of the reasons I was thinking of Eilistraee, was the story-line behind Lolth's going into a state of hibernation, during the "Silence of Lolth", in which Lolth failed to respond to any prayers of her followers, or bestow powers, etc. -- during which many Drow turned to Eilistraee.

That said, other choices for gods/godesses are really helpful too!!

Thanks!

[Lady Bly]

Right, if you're going to do it, the way to go about it is to do Necro Wizard, Skeleton Archers, at least a 14 CHA, and Inspiring Leader.

At 5 you get 2 3rd Level slots, both of which you use to raise 2 Skeletons each. Then you use a slot the next day to reassert control on those 4 and raise 2 more, then continue using both slots to maintain your 6 Skeletons. So, it takes two days to get to your max number for the purposes of having to replace them if you lose them. They also get the extra HP and damage from Wizard, making them quite viable at this level.

A Cleric would have to raise 2 Skeletons the first day. 2 the second, then 1, 1, and 1. At 5, you're maxed, because if you use a slot to raise another, you can't reassert control on number 5.

The set up takes days, not rounds, that's why Necro and Inspiring Leader are important. You don't want to be losing these guys all the time.

As you level, in order to keep up with the damage of your fellow heroes, your army will have to get bigger, the skeletons don't really get better, just more numerous. Once you get Create Undead you can have a couple bigger guys and maybe 8 Skeletons as your main army without getting too terribly ridiculous. A dice rolling app, if your DM allows it, could make the attack rolls far easier. You can set it up to roll all 10 at once, and even set up the damage rolls and save those as templates for easy access to speed things up.

I always like a portable hole for storage, toss it on a wall in combat and they crawl out. Later, Demiplane is a tricky neat way to do it. You can have 30 some minions shoulder to shoulder, Cast Demiplane with your 8th Level slot to store them, your 9th level slot to unleash them. I did play a level 17 Necro once. Unfortunately I very often used my 8th and 9th level slots for other things that were just better for the situation.

Thanks for this -- these are really useful suggestions.

[Irennan]

One of the reasons I was thinking of Eilistraee, was the story-line behind Lolth's going into a state of hibernation, during the "Silence of Lolth", in which Lolth failed to respond to any prayers of her followers, or bestow powers, etc. -- during which many Drow turned to Eilistraee.

That said, other choices for gods/godesses are really helpful too!!

Thanks!

Kiaransalee gained many followers too during that time. Actually, all of the Dark Seldarine did.

[Sception]

Death cleric doesn't really buff undead use so much as necrotic damage. You shouldn't feel compelled to play a necromancer type as a death cleric, nor should you feel prohibited from runing a clerical necromancer if the death domain isn't available. That said, all clerical necromancers along with necromancers of other classes) will lag well behind a necromancy specialist wizard in terms of effectiveness of minions.

If you can get someone else to play it, and your DM to allow it, having an oathbreaker in the party will be very helpful long term, as at paladin 7 (probably character level 8 to 12, as oathbreakers like to multi into hexblade early for the cha synergy), they pick up an aura that buffs the melee damage of themselves and nearby undead & fiends. If you do have an oathbreaker with the aura, then some melee undead are worth adding to your arsenal. Otherwise, yeah, stick to skeletal archers where you can, though raising a few zombies on the fly between encounters isn't a terrible use of spell slots. Keep in mind that the skeletons require cleaned bones, which might take some time/work on your part, and might require you to pay for their equipment as well, DM depending. I've had DM's allow me to research a low level spell for stripping the flesh from corpses, but that's homebrew territory. A DM that allows you to pay for equipment might also allow you to give them better equipment than usual, so that's a thing maybe, but again moving into homebrew territory.

If your DM is inclined towards homebrew, ask about the variant skeletons & zombies in the monster manual, and whether they might let you animate some of those yourself, perhaps with animate dead cast in higher level slots.


Beyond that, the issues mentioned with turn and space management are problems, so be ready to deal with that. Talk to your DM about ways to accelerate your minion's combat resolution - group initiative instead of individual, average damage instead of rolling every time, etc.

[Seekergeek]

Im currently about to roll in to next session with a new character for Barovia. After consulting with the hive mind here, I settled on a dwarf necromancer wizard, but the race isn't the important part of the stuff I've concocted, and some of this may be useful to you to consider.

First, if you plan on single-classing and you plan on using your minions as your primary source of damage you don't really need to pump intelligence. My decision to dump it was character driven initially, but there are a TONNE of spells for the wizard that just don't care about your INT mod. As a result, I tossed my highest score in to CON, my second highest in to STR and my third in to DEX. I took the tough feat and will take inspiring leader at 8. My four skeleton archers will provide my DPS for the most part while I spend my actions on things like my own cantrip weapon attacks (spell attacks are right out for me due to a 10 int); spells like fog cloud, haste, counterspell; and probably most importantly, the help action.

I'm not certain but I believe our skeletons and zombies regain hit die on a short/long rest like everyone else so cat-nap is also probably going to be part of my repertoire.

With this approach I've got a tonne of HP for a wizard, a good AC thanks to the dwarf medium armour, a good melee weapon attack and some freedom for out of combat utility. With some tweaks, I'm sure you could do something similar.

For reference, my spell book looks like this:

Cantrips:
Booming Blade
Mage Hand
Minor Image
Message

First Level Spells:
Alarm
Find Familiar
Fog Cloud
Magic Missile
Shield

Second Level Spells:
Blur
Enlarge/Reduce
Invisibility
Levitate
Mirror Image
Misty Step

Third Level spells:
Animate Dead
Blink
Catnap
Counterspell
Fireball
Fly
Haste
Leomund's Tiny Hut

[RedMage125]

Kiaransalee gained many followers too during that time. Actually, all of the Dark Seldarine did.

But not enough to elevate her above "demigod" status. Hence why a mortal mage was able to use an epic spell to make every being on Faerun, living or undead, forget her name for about 5 minutes. Which meant she had zero worshipers. Bye, bye demigoddess.

Obviously, she's back now. Pretty much every deity who has ever existed in Faerun is back, except the Egyptian Mulhorandi pantheon, and Tyche (I assume because Beshaba and Tymora are so popular).

[Irennan]

But not enough to elevate her above "demigod" status. Hence why a mortal mage was able to use an epic spell to make every being on Faerun, living or undead, forget her name for about 5 minutes. Which meant she had zero worshipers. Bye, bye demigoddess.

He kinda failed, since necromancers kept remebering and invoking Kiaransalee (then again, most of what happened in those books has been retconned into oblivion, gods were revealed to have survived, certain events were entirely ignored, etc--and for good reason). There was no chance for that spell to succeed, since--given that it affected people and not the gods, you could have demolished *any* god like that, and the elves--masters of that kind of magic--would have erased Lolth and Gruumsh a long time ago (I mean, if every single sentient being forgets you, then you end up with no followers no matter your divine rank. Which is why that spell was pure stupidity on the author side, tbh).


Obviously, she's back now. Pretty much every deity who has ever existed in Faerun is back, except the Egyptian Mulhorandi pantheon, and Tyche (I assume because Beshaba and Tymora are so popular).

The Mulhorandi gods are back too (alongside Mulhorand), actually.

[RedMage125]

He kinda failed, since necromancers kept remebering and invoking Kiaransalee (then again, most of what happened in those books has been retconned into oblivion, gods were revealed to have survived, certain events were entirely ignored, etc--and for good reason). There was no chance for that spell to succeed, since--given that it affected people and not the gods, you could have demolished *any* god like that, and the elves--masters of that kind of magic--would have erased Lolth and Gruumsh a long time ago (I mean, if every single sentient being forgets you, then you end up with no followers no matter your divine rank. Which is why that spell was pure stupidity on the author side, tbh).
No, all the gods were brought BACK with the New Sundering. So the events were undone, which is different than being retconned. Kiaransale WAS dead. And that kind of magic would just not have worked against greater deities. I thought it was pretty creative, myself, as far as a tactic that would ONLY work on a demigod.




The Mulhorandi gods are back too (alongside Mulhorand), actually.

Are they? Hmm...I haven't seen them mentioned in any 5e books. Maybe I've just overlooked them.

[Irennan]

No, all the gods were brought BACK with the New Sundering. So the events were undone, which is different than being retconned.

Some gods were revealed to have never died. Ed Greenwood explained how Eilistraee and Vhaeraun survived. It was also stated that Kiaransalee's name was still remembered and invoked by necromancers, and that it kept holding power in necromantic rituals. Not a proper retcon, but still...


Kiaransale WAS dead. And that kind of magic would just not have worked against greater deities. I thought it was pretty creative, myself, as far as a tactic that would ONLY work on a demigod.

Why? If the spell targets every living being in a world, permanently erasing their memory of a given god, then why would a demipower fall to it, but a greater god wouldn't? I don't understand your logic in this. That said, this method has proven itself to be rather ineffective when Kiaransalee used it against her rival Orcus, and he eventually re-emerged.


Are they? Hmm...I haven't seen them mentioned in any 5e books. Maybe I've just overlooked them.

They're in the SCAG, in a sidebar.

[RedMage125]

Some gods were revealed to have never died. Ed Greenwood explained how Eilistraee and Vhaeraun survived.
That was news to me, and I had to look it up. Seems like a cop-out...


It was also stated that Kiaransalee's name was still remembered and invoked by necromancers, and that it kept holding power in necromantic rituals. Not a proper retcon, but still...
Keep in mind, the High Magic only removed her name from the memory of beings on Toril for about 5 minutes, which was enough to kill a demigod...

And just because necromancers were able to remember her name and invoke it, didn't mean she was alive and granting spells. She very likely would have been considered a vestige.



Why? If the spell targets every living being in a world, permanently erasing their memory of a given god, then why would a demipower fall to it, but a greater god wouldn't? I don't understand your logic in this. That said, this method has proven itself to be rather ineffective when Kiaransalee used it against her rival Orcus, and he eventually re-emerged.
First of all, the number of people affected is the biggest key to why that would not work on a more powerful deity. Also, even to affect the demigoddess, that ritual had Eilistraee's help. So Epic High magic WITH the aid of a Lesser Deity is what was required to remove the name of a demigoddess from all being's minds for only a few minutes. And after those minutes were up, it didn't matter if people remembered her name or not, she was dead and could no longer grants spells...

As to why it did not work on Orcus, again the most important thing there is that Orcus was a demon prince, not a deity. While he had cultists and such, his power was not tied to their worship like deities' are. It's been said in some editions that even among demon lords, that Demogorgon is more powerful than Orcus, but Orcus was closer to becoming a true deity than any other demon prince, on account of him having more worshipers. The thing with Kiaransalee trying to take out Orcus gets a little wonky, though, because he sort of became an "undead demon" that went by the name of Tyranthraxus, before returning to his full strength as Orcus. Something about kidnapping Waukeen in there, too. And yet, Tyranthraxus is somehow still a vestige...headache. But at any rate, I don't think Kiaransale actually used the same method to wipe out Orcus. She tried to do it the old fashioned way and kill all his cultists, to wipe the memory of him out.



They're in the SCAG, in a sidebar.

Found it. No wonder I forgot it, very forgettable. You'll note that they're basically little more than avatars at this point. Or less, since they only exist as what used to be called "Chosen". That SCAG sidebar refers to them as "demigods", and sort of implies that the Mulhorandi people believe that they are their gods come back to them, and love them.

[Irennan]

That was news to me, and I had to look it up. Seems like a cop-out...

For Eilistraee, at least, it made total sense, since her avatar was killed, not the goddess herself, and the weapon used for that wasn't even a real artifact anymore. It had been broken, lost its powers (it shows, for example, in the end when a mortal's soul survives said mortal being killed with it), and then merely became the vessel for a demon. Ed explained that all the power that Eilistraee had invested in that avatar was dragged into the Weave with Qilué's soul (all the 7 sisters' souls go to the Weave as "Weave Ghosts" after their death), and there it remained until Mystra recovered from her vestige status, leaving Eilistraee unable to function as a deity for a century or so (but able to manifest as a floating mask surrounded by moonlight, which could heal people or grant certain spells by direct touch).

The transformation into brown elves was also one of the things that happened in those novels to be retconned (or nearly so). Then again, it wasn't a retcon proper, because in the books it is said that a few hundred of drow were changed, while Eilistraee has thousands of followers, so only a narrow % of her people were changed to begin with (and it makes sense: she has never given a flying about race and curses in over 10k+ years).

In any case, to me it seems that these novels are the only FR books that really come close to having been retconned, even if not a proper retcon. I personally won't mourn them, they were full of huge mistakes (mostly in the portrayal of Eilistraee, whose followers were outright distorted into unlikability) and retcons in lore themselves.


And just because necromancers were able to remember her name and invoke it, didn't mean she was alive and granting spells. She very likely would have been considered a vestige.

If the act of invoking her had power in the rituals--and this is stated too--then she was alive in a way. Call it a vestige, like Mystra had become after the Spellplague, but that's still being alive in a way (actually, she must have fared slightly better than Mystra, given that her name still held power in necromantic rituals, so she could grant some sort of power from afar).


Keep in mind, the High Magic only removed her name from the memory of beings on Toril for about 5 minutes, which was enough to kill a demigod...

First of all, the number of people affected is the biggest key to why that would not work on a more powerful deity. Also, even to affect the demigoddess, that ritual had Eilistraee's help. So Epic High magic WITH the aid of a Lesser Deity is what was required to remove the name of a demigoddess from all being's minds for only a few minutes. And after those minutes were up, it didn't matter if people remembered her name or not, she was dead and could no longer grants spells...

As to why it did not work on Orcus, again the most important thing there is that Orcus was a demon prince, not a deity. While he had cultists and such, his power was not tied to their worship like deities' are. It's been said in some editions that even among demon lords, that Demogorgon is more powerful than Orcus, but Orcus was closer to becoming a true deity than any other demon prince, on account of him having more worshipers. The thing with Kiaransalee trying to take out Orcus gets a little wonky, though, because he sort of became an "undead demon" that went by the name of Tyranthraxus, before returning to his full strength as Orcus. Something about kidnapping Waukeen in there, too. And yet, Tyranthraxus is somehow still a vestige...headache. But at any rate, I don't think Kiaransale actually used the same method to wipe out Orcus. She tried to do it the old fashioned way and kill all his cultists, to wipe the memory of him out.

The spell targeted *every* being on Toril. Lesser deity or greater deaty or demipower (and Kiaransalee had become a lesser deity during the Silence, as said here, p. 10 (https://web.archive.org/web/20171028191027/http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Spider_Queen_enhance.zip)), the spell targeted enough people to involve all the followers for any deity. Where did you get that the spell only worked for 5 minutes? As far as I can tell, it was permanent, making it a weapon usable against any deity. The fact that Eilistraee supported the ritual (she did? I don't recall her being involved in the description when the spell was cast, but maybe my memory is foggy) doesn't disprove that the elves could have erased any and all their enemies with the support of the whole Seldarine, by simply spamming that spell over time. That's why I think of it as a gimmick that makes 0 sense within the context of the Forgotten Realms. The concept itself was also silly: the spell was specifically said to be meant to erase the name of Kiaransalee from the minds of people, but that would have had no effect aside from being an nuisance. A name is just a label, the concept of Kiaransalee would still remain in the minds of everyone who was affected by the spell.

That I remember, Kiaransalee tried to delete all records and knowledge of Orcus (and that inclded killing his cultists, ofc).


Found it. No wonder I forgot it, very forgettable. You'll note that they're basically little more than avatars at this point. Or less, since they only exist as what used to be called "Chosen". That SCAG sidebar refers to them as "demigods", and sort of implies that the Mulhorandi people believe that they are their gods come back to them, and love them.

They're in their manifestation status, yes, but they're still present.