View Full Version : PHB I ONLY Cleric Necromancer and/or Druid build
Dear all,
I have been following this forum for some time and finally decided to register. This is my first post here.
I know that there are many threads on Necromancer and Druid builds (as two separate characters, not some Blight Necro) and I have read many of them. My question is slightly more specific than those in those threads and probably easier to answer.
I have recently started my second attempt at playing D&D 3.5. I am used to the Classic World of Darkness (particularly Vampire the Masquerade), so the system and style of play I come from is entirely different. I have known D&D for more than 10 years but only got to play for the first time some months ago. My first experience was very disappointing. I've always wanted to play a Dread Necromancer, that's the class that attracts me the most from the game. Otherwise, being used to the WoD, character generation in D&D feels very rigid and limiting, with little options at customizations when compared to WoD, where instead of having to choose a class you advance by simply assigning experience points to specific traits, allowing for a lot more combination options. The DM, however, limited all of us the the PHB I only (not even PrCs from DMHB) and, because I joined after everyone else and the party already had druid, cleric, sorcerer, wizard and only 1 Fighter, he practically forced me to be a Barbarian. I played along, despite a great distaste for fighting classes due to their simplicity and repetitive style of fight (especially if you're stuck with the Player's Handbook), but dropped out after a few sessions out of utter boredom. All my character could do was attacking people directly, and I was even unlucky with the dice. Social maneuvering in play was made irrelevant by the DM and the Barbarian's additional mobility was also made irrelevant.
Recently another DM offered to run a D&D campaign and I accepted, because I like how he masters WoD games and I hoped he could get me to like D&D. However, he also imposes the same limit of the PHB and nothing else. I can play any class in that book, though, not just the Barbarian.
I have decided to play a Druid or (especially if the Druid dies) or a Cleric Necromancer and we start at level 8. We have 8-10-12-14-16-18 as scores to distribute between abilities and he gave us a +1 to two separate abilities every four levels (so I gave +2 to Wis and +2 to Con). He applies retroactively the increase in the ability mod, even for Int, so if you increase Int by 2, you get immediately 1 skill point per character level to spend, and similarly for Con and health points.
My ideas for now are:
Human Druid level 8
Abilities: Str 8 Dex 10 Con 16 Int 16 Wis 20 Cha 12
Skills: Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Survival, Listen, Spot, Knowledge (Nature), Concentration, Spellcraft all at 11
Feats: Spell Focus (Conj.), Augment Summoning, Improved Initiative, Natural Spell
My Animal Companion is a Tiger (I had a giant crocodile but the DM let me change it because its size posed movemenr and social problems)
The main choice I have still to make is what are going to be my main wild shapes forms, one to cast spells safely in a fight (unless I feel safe enough in human form) and one to maul enemies directly. There's a few options, but remember that I am limited to PHB (well, the Monster Manual in this case). Note: I am not allowed to take feats from the Monster Manual to use in Wild Shape. No Multiattack, Flyby Attack, etc. Note 2: the setting is ancient Egypt-like, so there are grounds to say that my druid (who came from Southern Egypt) has never seen a bear or polar bear. The counter argument is that Knowledge (Nature) 11 entails that in his years of training as a druid before the game begins, he has traveled the world and familiarized himself with most animals, needing only a 10+animal's HD check to see if he knows a species. We have not had this chat with the DM yet. Maybe he'll allow bears in Egypt anyway because this is a weird world. One of the PCs is American, traveling through Egypt. A lot is possible in this world, apparently.
The main idea with this druid is to exploit the brokenness of this class to alternate between spellcasting, summoning and beating people up in wildshape so I don't get bored in a fight (and I can maneuver my Animal Companion and summoned Nature Allies to make fight tactically more interesting), while using Diplomacy, a few spells and simple roleplaying to contribute to other endeavours outside of fights. Once I can alter my looks at will, I will be up for some spy work here and there.
The second idea is:
Human Cleric level 8
Neutral (spontaneous Inflict spells, Rebuke/Command Undead)
No deity. Death and Destruction Domain.
4 feats to be decided. Please advise.
Skills to be decided. Please advise.
Ability scores to be assigned (same system as described above). Please advise.
The idea with this character is to use undead creatures whenever the DM allows (depending on what we encounter and how much social backlash I get in the setting for walking around with skeletons) and to use direct damage or save or die spells (from the Death domain) or destructive stuff at other times. This way, I get to play a nerfed necromancer (i.e. the character I have been wanting to try for more than 10 years), at least, while having some options in case the DM is unsympathetic towards my necromantic needs (money for onyx, corpses, relevant enemies that can be turned after defeating them, undead roaming the roads waiting to be rebuked/commanded). As a cleric, if necromancy does not play out well, I still have options on what to do. As a neutral cleric, I can cast spells of all alignments to keep options opened.
This character has some more defined features compared to the druid (who's just for now a Nubian dude with a leopard hide on his back and a tiger by his side and who prays at midnight as far as characterization is concerned): he is neutral with the Death and Destruction domain because he worships the powers of end and rebirth as neutral natural forces, not intrinsically good or evil. He's a shepherd to the dead and has philosophical reasons beyond mere unholy power to command undead. He feels close to them and believes it's part of their nature to follow the lead of clerics and necromancers (but not in a sense that would make him aligned with law against chaos), and it's part of the nature of the undead and of those who deal with them to try to create more, without believing this to be a violation of the deceased's soul or body.
If anyone has suggestions, please let me know. Remember: PHB only. I have already read threads and handbooks on Druids and Necromancers over the years, so I know that, had more manuals been allowed, I would have had many more interesting options. Also, the DM is not going to make ANY exception for other books.
If I get bored this time around, too, I'll have to admit D&D is not for me... At least until I find a DM who lets me play a Dread Necromancer and fulfil a minor life (or un-life) dream...
Mordaedil
2018-10-17, 06:54 AM
Gotta point that the group assembly given in, the opening for the team was for a rogue, given that the entire team was either casters or frontliners and no experts. And given how many casters it has, I think you wouldn't really enjoy yourself anyway, that is way too many casters. They would be running the show and basically make you outclassed in every way regardless. The only real answer to a group like that would be to play another caster (a bard is not a caster in this edition) to double up on a certain role.
Anyway, that's just nitpicking. I don't have much to add to the druid, I don't know that class very well.
As for the cleric, make sure you clear with the DM wether you can play a deity-less cleric. A lot of 3.5 DMs are really hardass on you needing to pick a deity (it is mandatory in certain settings, like Forgotten Realms) and I really must say that picking inflict spells really sucks because now you have to prepare healing spells. I assume you can't take Tomb-tainted soul to get the ability to heal from negative energy either? If that's the case, consider becoming a lich at a later point. (Betting this will get a lot of flack for being an unpopular choice)
Let's assign ability scores: Str 16 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 20 Cha 14.
Strength helps you run in and be effective in combat, dexterity is superfluous since you'll be wearing the heaviest armor you can find, constitution is a priority over intelligence as skill points don't really matter much to you, but surviving does and charisma affects your ability to rebuking undead.
Skills: Concentration, knowledge (religion), spellcraft, the end. (If you get more skillpoints from some kind of item or anything, put the points into heal.)
For feats: Since you are going to be focusing on undead and the like, augment summoning has no value for you. Metamagic is useful, but when you are limited to PHB1, you are kinda locked in. You can't take Combat Expertise with the low intelligence, meaning you can't make a cleric that disarms the enemies either. Liches are required to have Craft Wondrous Item if you are considering that route.
Improved Initative, Craft Wondrous Item, Spell Focus (Necromancy), Greater Spell Focus (Necromancy), Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Sunder? PHB I doesn't offer much of interest imo. Pick the passive feats if you'd rather let your undead sort out troubles, the active feats if you aren't afraid to leap in with them.
Spells for an 8th level character:
Orison: Prepare detect magic, detect poison, cure minor wounds and light.
1st: Shield of Faith, Divine Favor xinfinity. Okay, if you want to be a team player, prepare bless. Bane if you want to maintain your theme. Doom for that extra penalty. You are past cure light.
2nd: Prepare Bull's Strength and Bear's Endurance twice, Death Knell for the rest.
3rd: Magic Vestmentx2, cast it on your armor and shield later, just your lowest enhanced item to begin with. Animate the dead in your off-time, prepare maybe 1 for emergencies.
4th: Greater Magic Weapon, no need for a magical weapon anymore, Death Ward for immunity from instant death and Freedom of Movement to allow you to escape when you and your undead have met their match and you need to escape. Divine Power if you get cornered.
Death Domain gives you most of what you want in terms of spells. I actually don't think Destruction is a good fit for this character, consider something that synergizes better, since you can already cast most of the spells it provides, but spontaneously. Consider: Trickery, Evil, Magic, Knowledge, War, Travel.
Anyway, I hope that helps.
Anyway, I hope that helps.
It does help, indeed! Thank you
Re: the Domains to consider instead of Destruction: why those specifically?
Efrate
2018-10-17, 06:56 PM
prep command undead in your 2nd level slots. every mindless undead is a semi permanent minion if you pay attention. grab a wand of it for emergency use 4500 gold isn't much and insures you get them all. just recast with your slots for enhanced duration and keep very detailed notes when stuff expires.
buy a lot of onyx. you will need it. destruction is ok but not great domain. evil is better for a necro but that hits your alignment. travel fills gaps in your list for long range movement. trickery helps with the spy angle. magic lets you use wizard items like wands and staves for versatility.
If you want to mix it up in melee grab a domain that has shapechange, it's the best buff and combat spell likely in the game.
Mordaedil
2018-10-18, 01:41 AM
It does help, indeed! Thank you
Re: the Domains to consider instead of Destruction: why those specifically?
Why not Destruction: The granted power of the destruction domain is going to be largely unused or rarely useful. The spells it offers are spells you most already have access to, such as inflict series spells, harm and implosion. The only two spells it offers is Shatter and Disintegrate, which while powerful additions, doesn't offer you as a necromancer anything exceptionally great.
Evil: The evil domain simply boosts your evil spells (which, let's face it, are most of your animate dead and necromantic spells) as well as offering the unique unholy blight spell. It does kind of overlap with Death domain, so it is a hard sell.
Knowledge: Divination spells that are generally useful and allows you to do things like long-range reconnaissance.
Magic: Access to identify, protection from spells and mordenkainen's disjunction not good enough? You can also use arcane spell items without problems, giving you a host of options.
Travel: A cleric that can fly, teleport and dimension door is a scary god-damn cleric.
Trickery: Mostly for invisibility and being able to run away with that one. I don't really like this domain otherwise, except for timestop at the end. But that's still just one slot for timestop.
War: Free weapon proficiency and weapon focus feats as well as some domain spells that can free up other slots (magic vestment and divine power). Power Word can also be unexpectedly decent given what HP limits they work with.
Why keep Death domain: Free animate dead, death ward, slay living, create undead, create greater undead, destruction and access to Wail of Banshee as well as a neat special ability that can serve as a finisher.
Clerics are fun to make because domains choice can change so much of the character and your tactical options. Frankly I think it's baffling that druids don't get the same choice.
Doctor Awkward
2018-10-18, 04:33 PM
For a druid stuck in core, human is certainly the most practical choice for race.
Druid 20 progression.
Level 1 feat: Spell Focus (conjuration) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#spellFocus), Human Bonus: Augment Summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#augmentSummoning)
Level 3: Extend Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#extendSpell)
Level 6: Natural Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#naturalSpell)
Level 9: Improved Natural Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalAttack) (Bite or claw, depends on your preferred wild shapes)
Level 12: Quicken Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell)
Level 15: Multiattack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#multiattack)
Level 18: *Doesn't matter, pick whatever you want.*
Human + 3 Int mod + 4 skills per level = 8 skills at max ranks
Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft, Diplomacy, and Knowledge (nature) are the only ones worth keeping maxed out.
You need to be able to hit DC 20 Handle Animal checks to make the most of your animal companion. Probably 10 or so ranks in there if your DM lets you Take 10, or more if not.
Other than that I would take Balance cross-class until you get 5 ranks in it (10 skill points total), so that you are not flat-footed when balancing. With that high an Intelligence score, I'd try to get at least one or two more points in each other knowledge skill. Any leftover skill points throw into Use Magic Device.
EDIT:
Note: I am not allowed to take feats from the Monster Manual to use in Wild Shape. No Multiattack, Flyby Attack, etc.
Why? Why do I see this ruling from DM's all the time?
Like this is what makes druids broken. The fact that they can make themselves more like one of those pathetic grunts that wades into melee combat, risks death every single encounter, and that your party will slaughter dozens of over the course of your careers.
I mean, yeah, it will make a druid less interesting because he has fewer options he'll want to use. But being slightly weaker in melee combat isn't going to change the fact that a druid adventuring with a fighter, a ranger, and a rogue is more powerful than the entire rest of the party combined.
Whatever. Fine
Take the above progression, swap your Strength and Dexterity scores, and take Improved Initiative instead of Improved Natural Attack, and Maximize Spell instead of Multiattack. Then cast Stoneskin on yourself, Wild Shape into a hummingbird and spend an entire encounter raining Maximized Fire Seeds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireSeeds.htm) down on top of your enemies' heads from 200 feet in the air, and then ask your DM if he still thinks Improved Natural Attack (claw) is overpowered.
Your Druid build looks solid - feats are just about exactly what I'd usually recommend if stuck with core only.
For your Wildshape forms, yeah, animal access based on knowledge is going to be a big part of it so make sure you have that conversation with your DM. At Level 8, since you don't have Tiny forms yet, your best defensive/casting form is going to be Eagle - AC isn't amazing, but 80 ft Fly speed (Average) is pretty good. Make sure you're familiar with the mobility restrictions of Average flight maneuverability, because the mechanics aren't all that intuitive.
Your melee forms at the moment are Brown/Polar Bear, Dire Wolf and Tiger. Tiger is good for an alpha strike - full pounce plus two rakes is going to hit most things very hard. Once you're actually in the middle of the scrum, Polar Bear becomes slightly better. Dire Wolf is pretty much only for tripping - with Improved Trip and a +11 on the check, you can reliably trip a lot of level appropriate enemies.
Cheetah has a niche use for making a 500ft charge, but with an average of 9 damage on your full attack routine and a weak trip attempt (+3) I can't see too many times you'd use it. Most DM's will allow things with opposable thumbs to wield weapons, so Dire Ape is a possibility, especially since you've got a second iterative attack at Level 8. Pop Shillelagh on a Club and go to town. Quick back of the envelope math shows that doing just a bit less than Polar Bear on average.
mabriss lethe
2018-10-19, 11:46 PM
I've been toying with a NE cleric of Obad-Hai as a core only minionmancer. Give him Fire and Air domains (not really for the spells, but to give you turn or rebuke options for every creature with an elemental descriptor. Fire because Fire subtypes are common as dirt and make disposable fodder. Air because many air subtype creatures have useful abilities.) Note that True Dragons also have an elemental subtype and are theoretically vulnerable to elemental rebuking if you can crank your check up high enough. Judicious use of your rebuking gives you a small army of undead, elementals, and possibly a low rent dragon or two.
Thanks to everyone who has made a contribution so far! I like all these suggestions and I'm gonna keep them in mind when making the cleric minionmancer, God willing. Atm I'm playing the druid and in the last session I had quite some fun. The DM for now is having us play more investigatively, but my spells and skills have played their part. I'm still waiting for a fight to see whether at this level I prefer flying and casting spells or directly beating enemies in wild shape.
I've been toying with a NE cleric of Obad-Hai as a core only minionmancer. Give him Fire and Air domains (not really for the spells, but to give you turn or rebuke options for every creature with an elemental descriptor. Fire because Fire subtypes are common as dirt and make disposable fodder. Air because many air subtype creatures have useful abilities.) Note that True Dragons also have an elemental subtype and are theoretically vulnerable to elemental rebuking if you can crank your check up high enough. Judicious use of your rebuking gives you a small army of undead, elementals, and possibly a low rent dragon or two.
That actually sounds like a cool idea. Never thought of that way of minionmancing, probably because I was never much into the elemental side of things. Do you get separate HD pools that you can control for undead, fire creatures and air creatures or must you fit all of them in a single pool?
EDIT: I just checked the book and I understand that you get separate turning pools, since you also get separate turning attempts per day. That makes Extra Turning a much more appealing feat... And you're not losing as much in terms of strict necro-minionmancy because the Death and Evil Domains are the only options you have in core to make a more specialized Cleric build in core, and neither is really broken in that regard.
The only issue I see is that Clerics of Obad-Hai always turn or destroy undead, as specified in the book, despite this god being neutral, so you can only rely on the undead you put under your control through spells. That being said, if the DM allows clerics without specific deities, as the manual allows it (and as I prefer since I dislike restrictive fluff and the deities are fluff, even if they're given mechanical effects), one can totally have a cleric with all these options of rebuking. I can see a castle of bones suspended mid-air over a volcano as the base of operations for such a character at epic levels...
Why not Destruction: The granted power of the destruction domain is going to be largely unused or rarely useful. The spells it offers are spells you most already have access to, such as inflict series spells, harm and implosion. The only two spells it offers is Shatter and Disintegrate, which while powerful additions, doesn't offer you as a necromancer anything exceptionally great.
Evil: The evil domain simply boosts your evil spells (which, let's face it, are most of your animate dead and necromantic spells) as well as offering the unique unholy blight spell. It does kind of overlap with Death domain, so it is a hard sell.
Knowledge: Divination spells that are generally useful and allows you to do things like long-range reconnaissance.
Magic: Access to identify, protection from spells and mordenkainen's disjunction not good enough? You can also use arcane spell items without problems, giving you a host of options.
Travel: A cleric that can fly, teleport and dimension door is a scary god-damn cleric.
Trickery: Mostly for invisibility and being able to run away with that one. I don't really like this domain otherwise, except for timestop at the end. But that's still just one slot for timestop.
War: Free weapon proficiency and weapon focus feats as well as some domain spells that can free up other slots (magic vestment and divine power). Power Word can also be unexpectedly decent given what HP limits they work with.
Why keep Death domain: Free animate dead, death ward, slay living, create undead, create greater undead, destruction and access to Wail of Banshee as well as a neat special ability that can serve as a finisher.
Clerics are fun to make because domains choice can change so much of the character and your tactical options. Frankly I think it's baffling that druids don't get the same choice.
Wow, this has opened my mind to way more options than I had considered. It's a tough choice now between those domains, now...
I have a question, though: as cleric without a specific deity, what weapon proficiency would I get? The text in Player's Handbook seems not to address this.
For a druid stuck in core, human is certainly the most practical choice for race.
. . .
(had to remove the quote because I can't submit links until I have 10 posts on the forum)
Thank you, I'm going to try out this progression as I level up, God willing. The neat feat progression is useful and the idea of investing in the Knowledge skills seems really good, since they were relevant in my last session.
I see what you mean about the DM's policy not really fixing any balance issue.
blackwindbears
2018-10-20, 02:47 AM
Slightly off topic. If you ever get a chance to play way of the wicked (a Pathfinder module) you probably will want to take it, even if you've sworn off D&D. The characters you seem to be wishing you were playing would be a great fit in that module.
Your Druid build looks solid - feats are just about exactly what I'd usually recommend if stuck with core only.
For your Wildshape forms, yeah, animal access based on knowledge is going to be a big part of it so make sure you have that conversation with your DM. At Level 8, since you don't have Tiny forms yet, your best defensive/casting form is going to be Eagle - AC isn't amazing, but 80 ft Fly speed (Average) is pretty good. Make sure you're familiar with the mobility restrictions of Average flight maneuverability, because the mechanics aren't all that intuitive.
Your melee forms at the moment are Brown/Polar Bear, Dire Wolf and Tiger. Tiger is good for an alpha strike - full pounce plus two rakes is going to hit most things very hard. Once you're actually in the middle of the scrum, Polar Bear becomes slightly better. Dire Wolf is pretty much only for tripping - with Improved Trip and a +11 on the check, you can reliably trip a lot of level appropriate enemies.
Cheetah has a niche use for making a 500ft charge, but with an average of 9 damage on your full attack routine and a weak trip attempt (+3) I can't see too many times you'd use it. Most DM's will allow things with opposable thumbs to wield weapons, so Dire Ape is a possibility, especially since you've got a second iterative attack at Level 8. Pop Shillelagh on a Club and go to town. Quick back of the envelope math shows that doing just a bit less than Polar Bear on average.
Thank you. If he lets me use bear or polar bear, I'll go with those. I have a Tiger as Animal Companion, so I can leave the pouncing to her and keep my fighting style straightforward. For some reason I don't like tripping people in combat and I prefer grappling or direct attacking them.
The Dire Ape option seems fun, but carrying the club around, leaving it on the ground while I transform, picking it up and casting Shillelag is not good for action economy if I have to transform for an unexpected fight. I'll have to consider it if the bears are not an option, though.
About the flying form: wouldn't a Dire Bat be much better? Better AC and better flying maneuverability. I don't get blindsense from it, but the manual never says I have limits to my normal senses, like being blind, so echolocation is just a bonus, rather than a necessary compensation for some sensory bat limit.
mabriss lethe
2018-10-20, 06:13 AM
That actually sounds like a cool idea. Never thought of that way of minionmancing, probably because I was never much into the elemental side of things. Do you get separate HD pools that you can control for undead, fire creatures and air creatures or must you fit all of them in a single pool?
EDIT:
The only issue I see is that Clerics of Obad-Hai always turn or destroy undead, as specified in the book, despite this god being neutral, so you can only rely on the undead you put under your control through spells.
IIRC, Obad-Hai's prohibitions on turn/rebuke as a neutral deity only applies to good an neutral characters. an Evil cleric would still rebuke.
Mordaedil
2018-10-20, 10:08 AM
Wow, this has opened my mind to way more options than I had considered. It's a tough choice now between those domains, now...
I have a question, though: as cleric without a specific deity, what weapon proficiency would I get? The text in Player's Handbook seems not to address this.
You'd have to ask your DM, but it's fair to note that they might make you chose between a weapon focus in a simple weapon or a martial weapon proficiency.
If they are super nice, they'll let you pick, but I do recommend sticking with a one-handed weapon to get the most out of a shield (not necessarily because shields are good, but they are a great source of AC for a cleric thanks to Magic Vestment)
About the flying form: wouldn't a Dire Bat be much better? Better AC and better flying maneuverability. I don't get blindsense from it, but the manual never says I have limits to my normal senses, like being blind, so echolocation is just a bonus, rather than a necessary compensation for some sensory bat limit.
Dire Bat is a good option as well, with its high AC and good flight maneuverability. There are times when you're going to prefer the 80 ft fly speed, even with the restrictions that average flight imposes, and of course it's easier to be inconspicuous as a small animal. A fun trick I pulled a few times with my Druid was turning into something from the base familiar list, like a raven, and pretending to be the familiar of our Wizard. Obviously true sight and some other detection methods can counter that, but it's fun to see how opponents react when the inconsequential familiar they were preparing to handle turns into a Dire Bear chucking lighting at them.
Hopefully your DM allows you to use Bear forms so that you can enjoy getting into the nitty gritty in melee. If not, at least you're only one level away from being able to pop into your defensive form, summon 1d3 Brown Bears/Tigers and cast Animal Growth on all of them plus your Tiger companion, giving you an incredibly potent little animal cavalry.
eggynack
2018-10-20, 02:45 PM
About the flying form: wouldn't a Dire Bat be much better? Better AC and better flying maneuverability. I don't get blindsense from it, but the manual never says I have limits to my normal senses, like being blind, so echolocation is just a bonus, rather than a necessary compensation for some sensory bat limit.
I would say so, yes. Good maneuverability is the difference between having and not having hover, and not having hover is annoying. Without it, I'm not even sure there's an efficient way to do something like cast an SNA while in flight.
Eldariel
2018-10-22, 05:06 AM
Druid: I would take Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration in Core as you generally would prefer to employ spells offering SR every now and then. In addition to Augment Summoning and Extend/Quicken Spell, that's all you really need. Well, Craft Wondrous Items and Craft Magic Arms and Armor can also be good.
Craft yourself +1 Wild Dragonhide Fullplate and +1 Wild Tower Shield and Wildshape into anything becoming nigh' impossible to kill (note, Wild enhancement only gives you the defensive bonuses so armor check penalties and such disappear alongside the item). For forms, yeah, defensive caster forms but also one-big-hit forms are fine even without Multiattack and its ilk.
Cleric: Yeah, that sounds fine. Feats, the same: Spell Penetration/Greater, Craft X Items, Extend Spell, Quicken Spell. Rebuke offers you one pool of controlled minions and Animate Dead + Desecrate another one. Make good use of both; things like Hydras (or Magical Beasts in general), Giants and Dragons are great. You might still want Augment Summoning as Summon Monster is one of the best spell chains for caster Clerics, particularly if you're neutral and thus have access to both, good and evil summons.
Trickery, Travel and Luck are probably the best domains in Core. Luck has some decent spells (Mislead and Moment of Prescience) and a useful power, Travel has great spells (aforementioned Fly, Teleport, etc.) and a great power while Trickery has some of the best Wizard spells in the game (Invisibility, Mislead, Polymorph Any Object, Time Stop; Confusion is also insanely strong vs. anything not immune). By comparison, Destruction has a 1/day power and spells no better than the default Cleric fare covering no particular limitations (almost no non-Cleric spells). Destruction has basically only Cleric spells too aside from a level too high Disintegrate. Spend domains on things you don't normally get; they are extra options.
You're on the level where either Cleric or Druid is also the best frontline warrior in the group so that's something to keep in mind. With Cleric, you can put some stats into Strength, but Wis/Con are the two primaries and then Str/Cha/Int/Dex.
Apologies for not replying for long, and thank you all for the nice suggestions!
I'm trying the druid suggestions out, while for the cleric I'll have to wait until we start some new campaign with new characters.
I'm having fun so far with the druid, though, and he just got to lev. 9, so I'm probably going to take Craft Magic Armors and Weapons and get him the +1 Wild Dragonhide full plate armor and see how that plays out, God willing. Once I have a little more money, I'm going to get the +1 Wild Tower Shield too.
I have a couple of questions:
1) I was under the impression that, without the Wild enhancement or Wild Clasps, magic object disappeared and became non-functional while in Wild Shape. However, when I checked the text for Alter Self, Polymorph, Wild Shape and that in the DMM on the size of magic items, I realized that RAW there's no need for that to be the case: only items that can't possibly fit on your new form disappear, while other gear remains and is functional. Now, considering that magic items in D&D 3.5 adjust their size to the wearer, except magic weapons and armor (hence the Wild enhancement), and considering that many animals can actually wear a number of things (check pictures of cats and dogs wearing jewelry or clothes if you don't believe), I see no reason why a Druid turning in a Dire Lion should lose things like a Periapt of Wisdom or a Cloak of Something or a Tiara of Something Else, and keep their benefits. Some animal forms won't be able to support some things (a ring might be ok on an ape, but not on a shark), and the animal will look ridiculous, but it should work... Why did I read some people say it doesn't?
2) what are people's thoughts about getting magic items before you can afford their best version (especially when you're the maker)? Like, I could make the +1 Wild Dragonhide Armor now, or I could wait some levels and save gold to make a +5 Wild Dragonhide Armor. What comes to bear in this kind of decision?
Doctor Awkward
2018-11-06, 10:59 PM
Wildshape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape):
"Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet."
Your gear melds into your body and you lose the benefits from it. The Clasps prevent that from happening. Otherwise you would have to remove your gear before you wildshape, and then put it back on afterwards, and a lot of the time that's not very practical.
Goaty14
2018-11-06, 11:15 PM
Your gear melds into your body and you lose the benefits from it. The Clasps prevent that from happening. Otherwise you would have to remove your gear before you wildshape, and then put it back on afterwards, and a lot of the time that's not very practical.
The clasps aren't core material though :smallconfused:. Heck, it's even 3.0
Doctor Awkward
2018-11-07, 12:07 AM
The clasps aren't core material though :smallconfused:. Heck, it's even 3.0
Clasps are Magic Item Compendium, pg. 190
Wildshape:
"Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet."
Your gear melds into your body and you lose the benefits from it. The Clasps prevent that from happening. Otherwise you would have to remove your gear before you wildshape, and then put it back on afterwards, and a lot of the time that's not very practical.
I see what's happening. Your quote is from SRD. The PHB I doesn't say that at all, I just checked. What's in the SRD probably accounts for some later errata or some other thing.
Our DM doesn't let us use Magic Item Compendium.:smallcool:
Efrate
2018-11-07, 07:00 AM
Assuming you have a cleric in the party, keep your armor at plus 1, your shield at plus 1 and animated. Buy a couple of pearls of power for your cleric friend and have him cast magic vestament on each. Will save you thousands.
Wild shape lasts for a long time, if you have a preferred shape, and because magic items resize, take them off, turn into whatever, then get them back on. A bears claws can wear rings, it can wear a necklace, etc. A helm of telepathy if restricted to core fixes communication, and you can be pretty set.
At least until you need another form, but given time you can just repeat the process.
Eldariel
2018-11-07, 04:19 PM
I see what's happening. Your quote is from SRD. The PHB I doesn't say that at all, I just checked. What's in the SRD probably accounts for some later errata or some other thing.
Our DM doesn't let us use Magic Item Compendium.:smallcool:
Wildshape and Polymorph are some of the most heavily errata'd material in the game so what PHB says on them is pretty much irrelevant (unless you ignore errata, of course). If you do, knock yourself out. Even if you can't use stuff, don't forget that you can just get stuff made for your Wildshape form and put them on (with help) after shifting shape; you're fine until you change back. Something to do in the morning. Also, things like Ioun Stones aren't actually on your person so they shouldn't meld. But yeah, Wild armor is actually better melded since you lose all the drawbacks (Dex cap, Armor Check Penalty, etc.) retaining only the (rather massive) armor/shield modifier.
Beckett
2018-11-08, 08:03 PM
Wild Shape works like Polymorph (with exceptions) which itself works like Alter Self (with exceptions).
The main issue is that animals and many other creaters can not wear armor, but instead use barding. They also can not use shields. As far as most other gear, non-humanoid forms generally do not have the same magic item body slots, so the default tends to be that it merges to the body unless your DM allows otherwise.
Later errata and material did help clarify this, because the rules are in multiple places and easy to misunderstand/break, but it is there in the PHB under Alter Self.
Eldariel
2018-11-09, 10:52 AM
Wild Shape works like Polymorph (with exceptions) which itself works like Alter Self (with exceptions).
The main issue is that animals and many other creaters can not wear armor, but instead use barding. They also can not use shields. As far as most other gear, non-humanoid forms generally do not have the same magic item body slots, so the default tends to be that it merges to the body unless your DM allows otherwise.
Later errata and material did help clarify this, because the rules are in multiple places and easy to misunderstand/break, but it is there in the PHB under Alter Self.
Wildshape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape) is no longer based on Alter Self but Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) Special Ability. That changed a fair few details about how it works.
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