Booming Blade sound possible solution

[PrometheanFlame]

I know it's been argued back and forth whether or not Booming Blade creates a sound that's audible to others nearby, and to what degree, so after thinking about it for a while I just wanted to contribute my idea on why it wouldn't. It could be like boxing someone's ears, right? Clapping the sides of their head with cupped palms to create a burst of localized pressure that could seriously hurt someone, even though it wouldn't make any more noise than, say, striking the back of someone's head with a blackjack. And I'm pretty sure we'd all agree that can be done stealthily, right?

I would even take this idea one step further and suggest that this pressure could be felt increasing as the victim begins to move. That way, it becomes clear that there will be a consequence to not staying still, without having to metagame in any way. What do you all think?

(By the way, first post on the forum. Hi all!)

[Man_Over_Game]

Hey, Flame! Welcome to the forum!

I think what you've proposed is a good idea to explain how Booming Blade does its damage. There are a few things I want to mention, though.

Thunder damage is still applied, even to creatures that can't hear. In your example, a creature without ears might not even know what's going on. Or even be damaged, for that matter.

And Booming Blade is too strong to be allowed to be silent.

Booming Blade does 1d8 damage (average 4.5), and Green Flame Blade does your modifier. Since this is a melee attack, there's a good chance that your spellcasting modifier is rather low (probably around a +2 or a +3). The noise issue is something I consider a balancing choice, much as the same way a level 3 spell Knock can circumvent the investments needed for a stealthy, professional thief, at the cost of making a magical clicking sound that can be heard through walls.

The situations where Booming Blade is useful (I'm a caster, I attack and run away) are more common than situations where Green Flame Blade is useful (I'm a caster, I attack when I'm practically adjacent to two bad guys).

In addition, Booming Blade is a low-investment cost. It should have something that makes it worse than the option that requires more investment. As of right now, the best Green Flame Blade can get is a +1.5 damage lead (1d8 damage [4.5 avg] vs. 5 damage), which isn't much since it requires you to attack enemies that are clumped together (and if your spellcasting modifier is maxed out and you're using a cantrip, you don't want to be near 2+ bad guys at once).

With a +5 in Dexterity, and +0 in Intelligence, Booming Blade would deal max damage. For the same damage, someone using Green Flame Blade would need a +4 or a +5 in intelligence. This is why Booming Blade is so popular with Magic Initiate; you can be pretty darn lazy with your build and it'll still do well.


Summarized: I'm of the opinion that if you want Booming Blade to be silent, Fine, but you need to make it worse than Green Flame Blade (1d6 on the movement would be good).

[Unoriginal]

Booming Blade creates sound, but it's not precised it creates so much sound that it can be noticed far away. It's not louder than your typical battle chaos.

[Dudewithknives]

I have had similar issues in this edition multiple times.

It is almost impossible to be an infiltration expert.

With the way that damage and crits work it is almost impossible to one shot someone of appropriate level.
There is no way in the game to stop someone from talking short of using magic.
Grappling no longer has the option to mute people.
It is not possible to stop someone from casting a spell to escape unless you can cast counterspell, even with it, you can no longer identify the spell and then choose to counterspell.

Long story short:

Was playing a rogue stealth and infiltration expert, DM had it set so that a guard was standing right outside a door I had to get through.
You cant stealth past them, they are occupying the space in front of the 5ft square of the door.
You cant stealth take them out even with just knocking them out because you just can not cause that much damage reliably in one turn.
You cant stop them from raising an alarm if you do not one shot them, disengage and interract to ring alarm, stand there an scream, ect.
You cant grapple and silence them.
Most verbal spells, which is most of them, are not very quiet.
The only good non-verbal combat spells for a rogue are very flashy or make noise.

TL:DR: If you are not a caster, or a shadow monk, dont bother trying to stealth. Even then shadow monks have huge flaws.

[Man_Over_Game]

A lot of those things are things your DM determines. 5E is best used as a toolkit for ideas. Improvised uses for skills and attacks are encouraged. You should ask your DM how HE'D recommend a stealth mission and stealth effects.

I'd probably make a silent grapple possible with two free hands, or a free hand and a weapon (threatening to kill them if they make any noise).

I'd probably make it based around a "surprise action", which is something provided to Rogue Assassins instead of their Assassinate feature. Your Surprise Action has to be done in melee. It can be a special grapple, where the target is silent while grappled and you have advantage on your contested Athletics check to make or maintain it, but it requires your action each turn to maintain. It can also be a knockout/kill, but only if the character's CR rating is less than half your level, which otherwise grants you a critical hit, and you can perform this action any time during your special grapple.

Or, alternatively, make it an all-encompassing effect by saying that if you choose to take stealth check with disadvantage, you can perform one action while still remaining hidden.

[Dudewithknives]

A lot of those things are things your DM determines. 5E is best used as a toolkit for ideas. Improvised uses for skills and attacks are encouraged. You should ask your DM how HE'D recommend a stealth mission and stealth effects.

I'd probably make a silent grapple possible with two free hands, or a free hand and a weapon (threatening to kill them if they make any noise).

I'd probably make it based around a "surprise action", which is something provided to Rogue Assassins instead of their Assassinate feature. Your Surprise Action has to be done in melee. It can be a special grapple, where the target is silent while grappled and you have advantage on your contested Athletics check to make or maintain it, but it requires your action each turn to maintain. It can also be a knockout/kill, but only if the character's CR rating is less than half your level, which otherwise grants you a critical hit, and you can perform this action any time during your special grapple.

The issue is that that is the DM creating a rule for it that is not in the book, so it could never happen in AL, and people could just argue about it at the table because it is just opinion on what should happen.

[Man_Over_Game]

The issue is that that is the DM creating a rule for it that is not in the book, so it could never happen in AL, and people could just argue about it at the table because it is just opinion on what should happen.

Very valid point. Sorry about the tangent, guys.

[Laserlight]

And I'm pretty sure we'd all agree that can be done stealthily, right?

I doubt "we'd all agree" applies to anything.

There's nothing to suggest that BB should be stealthy. Note that the Silence spell makes those in the area immune to Thunder damage, so it would take some mental gymnastics to argue that BB is especially quiet.

There's some consensus on "it makes about the same amount of sound as normal combat" (since it doesn't call out "can be heard to 100ft" or such, as other Thunder spells do); other people believe that it should be louder (and boomier) than normal combat.

[DMThac0]

TL:DR: If you are not a caster, or a shadow monk, dont bother trying to stealth. Even then shadow monks have huge flaws.

I will start by saying, in my personal opinion, whoever DMs like that is lazy. It doesn't take a leap of logic to make these different things work for stealthy individuals, if they can describe what they're attempting well.



Was playing a rogue stealth and infiltration expert, DM had it set so that a guard was standing right outside a door I had to get through.
You cant stealth past them, they are occupying the space in front of the 5ft square of the door.


There was no way to climb, no windows, no other opening to this building what so ever? No way to distract the guard, pull him away from that spot or otherwise create an opening to infiltrate?



You cant stealth take them out even with just knocking them out because you just can not cause that much damage reliably in one turn.


Sleeping agents may be applied here, but it is hard to come up with a damage based solution. So why not make it work? You Sap an individual and roll damage, now there's a con saving throw to remain conscious. Or, heaven forbid, just let it happen? Why punish creative thinking by saying "Nope you're too weak to knock an unsuspecting individual out who was looking the other direction by smashing him in the head with the pommel of a heavy metal object."



You cant grapple and silence them.


I have 2 hands, one hand to grab them around the neck, the other to cover his mouth. This is not something that is covered in the book, it is also something that is not covered in the book, which means it's a DM call.

---

I've been DMing for 30 some years, I've played almost every edition that has been released. 5e is the most lenient version of the game I've had while still keeping everything manageable. The biggest reason for this is that the "rules" as have been put forth were done with some ambiguity to allow the DM to resolve the undefined situations as they feel is best for the narrative. To adhere to the rules as though they were black and white makes the game difficult to play due to the paradoxes and open ended situations.

[Dudewithknives]

I will start by saying, in my personal opinion, whoever DMs like that is lazy. It doesn't take a leap of logic to make these different things work for stealthy individuals, if they can describe what they're attempting well.



There was no way to climb, no windows, no other opening to this building what so ever? No way to distract the guard, pull him away from that spot or otherwise create an opening to infiltrate?



Sleeping agents may be applied here, but it is hard to come up with a damage based solution. So why not make it work? You Sap an individual and roll damage, now there's a con saving throw to remain conscious. Or, heaven forbid, just let it happen? Why punish creative thinking by saying "Nope you're too weak to knock an unsuspecting individual out who was looking the other direction by smashing him in the head with the pommel of a heavy metal object."



I have 2 hands, one hand to grab them around the neck, the other to cover his mouth. This is not something that is covered in the book, it is also something that is not covered in the book, which means it's a DM call.

---

I've been DMing for 30 some years, I've played almost every edition that has been released. 5e is the most lenient version of the game I've had while still keeping everything manageable. The biggest reason for this is that the "rules" as have been put forth were done with some ambiguity to allow the DM to resolve the undefined situations as they feel is best for the narrative. To adhere to the rules as though they were black and white makes the game difficult to play due to the paradoxes and open ended situations.

All of those are great suggestions, however in AL none of them are allowed.

As far as home games go, I hate playing a character that only works if the DM feels like letting it happen that day.

[ad_hoc]

Booming Blade is straightforward. It sheathes them in booming energy and deals thunder damage which is a concussive burst of sound.

For stealth, the reason is simple. This is not a stealth based game. It is a game where a multiple characters form a party and go on adventures into dungeons or their equivalent. It's just not designed for heists by individual characters, nor should it be.

[Tanarii]

All of those are great suggestions, however in AL none of them are allowed.

I played in many AL games where such things were allowed. And of course, theyre all AL legal. AL DMs are allowed to improvise ability checks just as non-AL DMs are, since that's a core rules.

Edit: not the one shot thing. Of course, most rogues can easily one shot a MM guard.

[Spiritchaser]

I have had similar issues in this edition multiple times.

It is almost impossible to be an infiltration expert.

With the way that damage and crits work it is almost impossible to one shot someone of appropriate level.


I’d agree that 5e overly limits stealth for this purpose, there exists the potential for a lot of interesting mechanics along these lines. Usually, after your surprise round you’re into pretty standard combat... except...

It’s really up to the DM what is “level appropriate” to guard that door.

Guards can be pushovers physically, and still represent grave danger to the party precisely because they can raise the alarm if they are not dealt with in one round.

Of course even if you do place weak guards, the two stealthiest party members who went ahead may not have any good way to know if they could take the poor sod down in that one surprise round or not.

[Unoriginal]

I played in many AL games where such things were allowed. And of course, theyre all AL legal. AL DMs are allowed to improvise ability checks just as non-AL DMs are, since that's a core rules.

Edit: not the one shot thing. Of course, most rogues can easily one shot a MM guard.

That would imply that 5e is actually capable of doing something right, and we can't have that now can we?



Of course even if you do place weak guards, the two stealthiest party members who went ahead may not have any good way to know if they could take the poor sod down in that one surprise round or not.

"Infiltration expert" doesn't really mean the same as "no-risk-situation expert"

[Spiritchaser]

"Infiltration expert" doesn't really mean the same as "no-risk-situation expert"

It’s fine as long as you’re consistent *enough* at making the reward worth the risk

Edit: but back to the OP, don’t take that guard down with booming blade, or fireball, or potentially any spell with a verbal component.

[NaughtyTiger]

The issue is that that is the DM creating a rule for it that is not in the book, so it could never happen in AL, and people could just argue about it at the table because it is just opinion on what should happen.

Not true. AL does explicitly allow DMs to make that kind of ruling. There is no arguing cuz the DM is the final arbiter, even in AL. (of course there is arguing, even if it benefits the table).

[DMThac0]

While AL does have a code of conduct, rules governing how to progress through the game in regards to XP, Gold, Gear, and more. It does not say that a DM must, at all times, follow the books' suggested rules to the letter nor that you must adhere to the rulings of previous DMs in other games and locations.

I understand that making one ruling may not carry over to different games/DMs. If I were at a table that allowed me to use a jumping attack from an extreme height and mitigate the damage by using acrobatics to roll out of it, that's the ruling at that table. If I were to go to another game in a different location with a different DM and his ruling was, fall damage is fall damage period, I'd have to accept that since it's their table. All of that is perfectly legal, and acceptable, in AL games as well as home games.

[Tanarii]

I understand that making one ruling may not carry over to different games/DMs. If I were at a table that allowed me to use a jumping attack from an extreme height and mitigate the damage by using acrobatics to roll out of it, that's the ruling at that table. If I were to go to another game in a different location with a different DM and his ruling was, fall damage is fall damage period, I'd have to accept that since it's their table. All of that is perfectly legal, and acceptable, in AL games as well as home games.Careful, you'll summon the all-biting sarcasm of Pex talking like that!

[Pex]

While AL does have a code of conduct, rules governing how to progress through the game in regards to XP, Gold, Gear, and more. It does not say that a DM must, at all times, follow the books' suggested rules to the letter nor that you must adhere to the rulings of previous DMs in other games and locations.

I understand that making one ruling may not carry over to different games/DMs. If I were at a table that allowed me to use a jumping attack from an extreme height and mitigate the damage by using acrobatics to roll out of it, that's the ruling at that table. If I were to go to another game in a different location with a different DM and his ruling was, fall damage is fall damage period, I'd have to accept that since it's their table. All of that is perfectly legal, and acceptable, in AL games as well as home games.


Careful, you'll summon the all-biting sarcasm of Pex talking like that!

I wasn't in this conversation. This is on you. :smalltongue:

Legal: yes
Acceptable: Heck no

Cynical me says the volume of sound Booming Blade makes is directly proportional to how annoyed the DM is the player uses it short of outright banning it.

[Tanarii]

Cynical me says the volume of sound Booming Blade makes is directly proportional to how annoyed the DM is the player uses it short of outright banning it.I almost burst something laughing :smallbiggrin:

[Lunali]

Sonic damage (I find calling it thunder damage to be just weird) doesn't have to be in the audible range, it just has to be a powerful vibration. Making it low frequency would mean almost nothing can hear it properly, but might attract things with tremorsense. Making it high frequency might create interest among creatures that can hear those frequencies, though at high enough frequency, nothing would be able to hear it.