Trickster spell choice for ranged Rogue/Fighter

[bbrown12]

Hi everyone,

I am playing a level 18 ranged Trickster Rogue 13/Fighter 5.

Race: Human (variant)
Class: Rogue (13) / Fighter (5)
Archetype: Arcane Trickster.
Abilities: STR 8 | DEX 20 | CON 14 | WIS 13 | INT 12 | CHA 13
Feats: Crossbow Expert (second attack with Bonus Action), Sharpshooter (-5 AT/+10 DMG), Resilient (WIS)
Fighting-Style: Ranged combat with Hand-Crossbow (two attacks) using Bonus-Aktion for third attack with Sharpshooter (-5/+10).

I already know the following spells: 1st level: Silent Image, Self Disguise, Find Familiar. 2nd level: Suggestion, Phantasmal Force, Mirror Image, Darkvision, Invisibility.


1.) New spell to choose
I can choose one illusion spell on Rogue 13. I thought of Hypnotic Pattern, because it only has an initial save.


2.) Switching Darkvision
In advance, I thought of exchanging Darkvision with one of the following spells:


Misty Step (2) - casted as a Bonus Action means, it's a good "emergency spell"
Slow (3) - enemy gets save each round (DC 15)
Haste (3) - if it breaks = no actions/movement for one round
Fly (3) - always nice to have, but I don't need it for my play style (shoot and hide).
Magic Circle (3) - best choice?? (see below)


We are playing Out of the Abyss, what contains A LOT of fients (demons). So, I thought that Magic Circle would probably be the best choice. I can cast it on my spot, so no demons can pass the barrier. Attacks get DisAdv and I am immun to frightening, charming and possessing effects. And the best: No concentration! What do you think about it? Anything I missed? Any alternatives?

On Rogue 14 I can pick another "non-illusion spell". Maybe I would go for Misty Step then (as an emergency spell in backup) or Fly (always nice).

Would be glad about answers!

Thanks in advance!

PS: Before someone asks: I picked Resilient (WIS) on Fighter 4. I know that I will get Slippery Mind on Rogue 15. In my current build that will be on level 20. So, I decided to pick Resilient earlier, although this seems to be a bit of a waste. But I don't even know if I will hit level 20 with this char.

[Dudewithknives]

Hi everyone,

I am playing a level 18 ranged Trickster Rogue 13/Fighter 5.

Race: Human (variant)
Class: Rogue (13) / Fighter (5)
Archetype: Arcane Trickster.
Abilities: STR 8 | DEX 20 | CON 14 | WIS 13 | INT 12 | CHA 13
Feats: Crossbow Expert (second attack with Bonus Action), Sharpshooter (-5 AT/+10 DMG), Resilient (WIS)
Fighting-Style: Ranged combat with Hand-Crossbow (two attacks) using Bonus-Aktion for third attack with Sharpshooter (-5/+10).

I already know the following spells: 1st level: Silent Image, Self Disguise, Familiar. 2nd level: Suggestion, Phantasmal Force, Mirror Image, Darkvision, Invisibility.


1.) New spell to choose
I can choose one illusion spell on Rogue 13. I thought of Hypnotic Pattern, because it only has an initial save.


2.) Switching Familiar
Casting Familiar requires moon light. We went to the Underdark, so I can't cast it anymore. Therefore, I want to switch it to my non-illusion spell. I had a look to the wizard's spell list and found a few interesting ones:


Misty Step (2) - casted as a Bonus Action means, it's a good "emergency spell"
Rope Trick (2) - very situational
Spider Climb (2) - very situational + companion can fly
Gaseous Form (3) - very situational
Slow (3) - enemy gets save each round (DC 15)
Haste (3) - if it breaks = no actions/movement for one round
Fly (3) - always nice to have, but I don't need it for my play style (shoot and hide).
Magic Circle (3) - best choice?? (see below)


We are playing Out of the Abyss, what contains A LOT of fients (demons). So, I thought that Magic Circle would probably be the best choice. I can cast it on my spot, so no demons can pass the barrier. Attacks get DisAdv and I am immun to frightening, charming and possessing effects. And the best: No concentration! What do you think about it? Anything I missed? Any alternatives?

On Rogue 14 I can pick another "non-illusion spell". Maybe I would go for Misty Step then (as an emergency spell in backup) or Fly (always nice).

Would be glad about answers!

Thanks in advance!

PS: Before someone asks: I picked Resilient (WIS) on Fighter 4. I know that I will get Slippery Mind on Rogue 15. In my current build that will be on level 20. So, I decided to pick Resilient earlier, although this seems to be a bit of a waste. But I don't even know if I will hit level 20 with this char.

I will try not to spoil anything but give some advice, I have played thorugh OOTA.

1. No, you will not hit level 20, unless your DM goes off book and adds more stuff.
2. Do not build a character hoping to get certain magic items. You will probably never get them.
3. Do not take the spell darkvision, play a race with it, or dip 2 levels of warlock like every played I have ever seen in that campaign.
4. Why do you have to have moonlight for your familiar, is that an RP thing? The spell itself does not need it.
5. Never underestimate how amazing the feat Skilled is, for a rogue.
6. Fly is still nice for a ranged hider, you are underground, there will be plenty to hide behind around the cealing.

I would pick Fly, unless you have other people who can cast it, it helps a ton. Or just take Mage Armor.

[bbrown12]

1. No, you will not hit level 20, unless your DM goes off book and adds more stuff.
First of all: Thanks for your answer! This is our second campaign. We started OOA on level 13. Our DM adjusted DCs and encounters.



4. Why do you have to have moonlight for your familiar, is that an RP thing? The spell itself does not need it.
OMG, you are right. I have NO idea why I thought I had to have it. Also thought the materials had to be consumed "by moon light". Lol. Thanks for your advice! If I get it right, I can cast Familiar just whenever I have enough time to cast it (1 hour)? Oh man...

But honestly: I had a familiar for about 13 levels now. It was great for RP and in fights. Though, since a few levels my DM kills my Familiar regulary with AoE effects, etc. It's just very tought to avoid damage in high levels, although I play very carefully.



6. Fly is still nice for a ranged hider, you are underground, there will be plenty to hide behind around the cealing. I would pick Fly, unless you have other people who can cast it, it helps a ton. Or just take Mage Armor.
I already have an armor with AC 13, so there is no need for Mage Armor. But I will think about fly. Maybe I will change it for Darkvision.


But again: No one thinks Magic Circle is very strong for OOA?

[Expected]

Depending on if your Int is high enough to make the spell save DC difficult, I would take Hypnotic Pattern because of Magical Ambush (disadvantage on spell saving throws if caster is hidden). The combination is amazing.

[bbrown12]

Depending on if your Int is high enough to make the spell save DC difficult, I would take Hypnotic Pattern because of Magical Ambush (disadvantage on spell saving throws if caster is hidden). The combination is amazing.
DC is 15. That's not much, but with Magical Ambush decent though. Hypnotic Pattern is already set. I am looking for an exchange for Darkvision in addition!

[Expected]

DC is 15. That's not much, but with Magical Ambush decent though. Hypnotic Pattern is already set. I am looking for an exchange for Darkvision in addition!

Since you're a Variant Human Rogue, I'd keep Darkvision unless you plan on getting it some other way? Holding a torch or casting Light isn't good for stealth.

If it's a possibility, Haste would be a good option as you have Sharpshooter. Assuming you hit, damage die+bonus+10 is a good increase to your DPR.

[bbrown12]

Since you're a Variant Human Rogue, I'd keep Darkvision unless you plan on getting it some other way? Holding a torch or casting Light isn't good for stealth.
Actually, I would say the same. But our DM rarely takes care of lighting environment. So, I didn't cast Darkvision a lot so far.


If it's a possibility, Haste would be a good option as you have Sharpshooter. Assuming you hit, damage die+bonus+10 is a good increase to your DPR.
Haste also allows me to Sneak Attack twice per round with Ready Action. But our Sorcerer can cast Haste and losing concentration ends Haste what means that I can't use Actions/Movement for a whole round. That's why I didn't want to pick it.

[Galadhrim]

But again: No one thinks Magic Circle is very strong for OOA?

Magic Circle has a cast time of one minute, so it takes a lot of planning. It is not really useful in combat unless you planned the combat and lead the enemies to a certain location.

I agree with your choice of hypnotic pattern. Your DC of 15 should be plenty if you utilize magical ambush well. That spell is devastating at disadvantage.

With what has been said about find familiar, I assume you will be keeping it at this point.

Looking at your spell list, you have a glut of level 2 spells, and not many level 1 spells. Add to that, you may not even need to cast find familiar daily. Do you find that you use all of your level 1 spells or do you have several left over at the end of each adventuring day. If you do have plenty left over, you might consider shield. I know you have uncanny dodge, but shield can be a much better option if you see you are going to take several attacks at once. Tasha's hideous laughter is also very useful for a level 1 spell slot and is an enchantment!

In your analysis you put you thought spider climb would be very situational. In the underdark, I would think it could say a lot of use, and give you utility comparable to fly for a lower spell slot. If you were just in a regular campaign I would agree with you, but adventuring through an underground cavern like landscape seems to lend itself to spider climb.

[Keravath]

Hypnotic pattern is a good choice due to the Level 9 trickster ability Magical Ambush. Creatures that you are hidden from have disadvantage on the saving throw. This works better if you have a headband of intellect or something to increase the DC but is still a good crowd control option. If you have expertise in stealth then a good ranged rogue can probably find trees/obstacles/walls or darkness to hide in. Worst comes to worst you might be able to use minor illusion to create something you can hide behind.

Most of the rogues I have played or play with, especially ranged ones, try to use hide and other techniques to get advantage as often as possible anyway.

Also, if you don't need the level 15 rogue ability, you might find taking a feat or ASI from level 6 of fighter more useful. All you are giving up is a single d6 of sneak attack damage. The feat/ASI from fighter 6 is probably worth a lot more than that. Even if you just take the Lucky feat to help with saves.

[bbrown12]

Thanks for your detailled answers!

You are right. I will keep Find Familiar under the "new" circumstances and switch Darkvision to Shield, because I always had plenty of 1st level slots left.

1st: Find Familiar, Shield, Silent Image, Alter Self

2nd: Invisibility, Mirror Image, Suggestion, Phantasmal Force,

3rd: Hypnotic Pattern



Also, if you don't need the level 15 rogue ability, you might find taking a feat or ASI from level 6 of fighter more useful. All you are giving up is a single d6 of sneak attack damage. The feat/ASI from fighter 6 is probably worth a lot more than that. Even if you just take the Lucky feat to help with saves.
Yes, that's what I was going to do. Though, I don't know yet, if I should even go Rogue 14 for another "non-illusion" spell and Blindsight (only 10 feet) or go directly to Fighter 6 on the next level.

[Keravath]

Thanks for your detailled answers!

You are right. I will keep Find Familiar under the "new" circumstances and switch Darkvision to Shield, because I always had plenty of 1st level slots left.

1st: Find Familiar, Shield, Silent Image, Alter Self

2nd: Invisibility, Mirror Image, Suggestion, Phantasmal Force,

3rd: Hypnotic Pattern



Yes, that's what I was going to do. Though, I don't know yet, if I should even go Rogue 14 for another "non-illusion" spell and Blindsight (only 10 feet) or go directly to Fighter 6 on the next level.

I'd take fighter 6 on your next level up since a feat or ASI is more useful in my opinion than blind sight. On the other hand, level 14 gives you another spell from any school so you could pick up haste or similar.

I would also seriously consider keeping darkvision since as a human you can't see in the dark and a rogue who can't see in the dark is in trouble in my opinion. (Unless you have goggles of the night, a similar magic item or someone who can reliably cast darkvision on you). Keeping darkvision unfortunately means dropping either shield or find familiar ... personally, I like the familiar for scouting and help actions for advantage enabling sneak attacks so I would probably drop shield for a ranged character. Also, alter self is a second level spell so I think you mean disguise self.

[Citan]

Hi!
Since Hypnotic Pattern is set, I'd also pick Slow.
I know you have a kinda negative opinion on it, because enemy makes a save each round, but I think it's still a very good spell to get, especially with Magical Ambush but even without.

Why is that?
1. Hypnotic Pattern is not the "godlike spell" it may seem.
It's a great spell, sure but it does have limits and requirements.
- requirements: it has friendly fire, so it's not a spell you could use to set up a delayed ambush (have a friend lure out people) or a spell to help in a pinch (because your own people will be in the middle of everyone).
- limits: not only does effect end with the slightest damage (so no AOE, need everyone to focus fire on the one single enemy), but it just takes one or two creatures saving to potentially ruin your plan: of course, you made everyone else waste a round, and that's great, but realistically, most people will be up next round or the one after.
Plus it's rare to have more than 6 creatures in a 30 feet radius unless those creatures are really unaware of magical effects being a thing.

2. Slow is the perfect complementary.
- Friendly spell with a bit higher radius: you pick the targets, so no risk of collateral.
- Boost offense (less than Hypnotic, but still nice) with -2 penalty AC/DEX and defense (limited attacks, delayed spells, no reactions).
- Does not completely deny harming targets: direct AOE, harming zones (especially good with halved movement) or just plain bashing are a thing.

So both cases, with Magical Ambush you can count on most creatures failing.
In both cases, spell will probably have 100% ended on all creatures in 3 rounds max.

But the first case is perfect for sneaking or non-lethal conflict or guerilla tactics, much harder to use in actual combat.
While the latter will be perfectly suited to open an all-out conflict because your party can still use full strength and abilities against the group, even with friendlies around.

[bbrown12]

Hi!
Since Hypnotic Pattern is set, I'd also pick Slow.
I know you have a kinda negative opinion on it, because enemy makes a save each round, but I think it's still a very good spell to get, especially with Magical Ambush but even without.

Why is that?
1. Hypnotic Pattern is not the "godlike spell" it may seem.
It's a great spell, sure but it does have limits and requirements.
- requirements: it has friendly fire, so it's not a spell you could use to set up a delayed ambush (have a friend lure out people) or a spell to help in a pinch (because your own people will be in the middle of everyone).
- limits: not only does effect end with the slightest damage (so no AOE, need everyone to focus fire on the one single enemy), but it just takes one or two creatures saving to potentially ruin your plan: of course, you made everyone else waste a round, and that's great, but realistically, most people will be up next round or the one after.
Plus it's rare to have more than 6 creatures in a 30 feet radius unless those creatures are really unaware of magical effects being a thing.

2. Slow is the perfect complementary.
- Friendly spell with a bit higher radius: you pick the targets, so no risk of collateral.
- Boost offense (less than Hypnotic, but still nice) with -2 penalty AC/DEX and defense (limited attacks, delayed spells, no reactions).
- Does not completely deny harming targets: direct AOE, harming zones (especially good with halved movement) or just plain bashing are a thing.

So both cases, with Magical Ambush you can count on most creatures failing.
In both cases, spell will probably have 100% ended on all creatures in 3 rounds max.

But the first case is perfect for sneaking or non-lethal conflict or guerilla tactics, much harder to use in actual combat.
While the latter will be perfectly suited to open an all-out conflict because your party can still use full strength and abilities against the group, even with friendlies around.
Thanks for your detailed answer! This seems very reasonable to me. So, you would go Rogue 14 first?