What spell slot level would you allow Find Familiar to create better familiars?

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm a big fan of modifying the existing 5e system to make cool things happen. One thing I came up with was the ability to upcast Find Familiar to summon better familiars.

As of right now, I'm thinking about just copying the list that Warlocks get, but I might get some ideas to make CR 2 familiars with high level spells.

What spell slot level seems reasonable for a character to cast Find Familiar at to get an Imp or Pseudodragon? I don't want it to be ridiculous or something (level 7 seems way too high), but I don't want it too low and make the appeal of a Pact of the Chain Warlock seem easily circumvented.

Assuming you'd let this fly, what's your recommendation? I'm thinking...slot level 4? (Available at Caster Level 7)

[JackPhoenix]

I wouldn't. If you want better familiar, find the creature you want (assuming it's a creature suitable to being familiar) and make deal with it the usual way. The variant is in the MM for a reason.

And don't be surprised when that creature has its own agenda.

[Kane0]

I would scale it every second spell level, especially since it can be cast as a ritual (can you choose to upcast a ritual? AFB right now). Stagger the progression out so whatever you are getting doesn't steal the show.

1st level slot: CR 0
3rd level slot: CR 1/2
5th level slot: CR 1
7th level slot: CR 2
9th level slot: CR 3

Maybe also expand type options based on class. Example druids can also choose plants, clerics celestials or fiends, wizards fey or monstrosities and warlocks whatever type their patron is.

[NaughtyTiger]

I like Jack's thought on it.

The FF spell (and Find Steed) are structured such that it doesn't matter if you lose them.
But make a deal with an imp, it doesn't just come back for 15GP.

In theory the warlock has the Improved FF because he entered into a deal with something more powerful (with its own agenda)

[Man_Over_Game]

I would scale it every second spell level, especially since it can be cast as a ritual (can you choose to upcast a ritual? AFB right now). Stagger the progression out so whatever you are getting doesn't steal the show.

1st level slot: CR 0
3rd level slot: CR 1/2
5th level slot: CR 1
7th level slot: CR 2
9th level slot: CR 3

Maybe also expand type options based on class. Example druids can also choose plants, clerics celestials or fiends, wizards fey or monstrosities and warlocks whatever type their patron is.

You can't upcast rituals. The spells you can learn via Ritual Caster are determined by 1/2 of your level, but the spells you cast can only be at the lowest level possible, since they aren't using a spell slot.

Your progression isn't bad, though. I like it!


I like Jack's thought on it.

The FF spell (and Find Steed) are structured such that it doesn't matter if you lose them.
But make a deal with an imp, it doesn't just come back for 15GP.


[...] but if its hit points fall to 0, it disappears until you cast this spell again.
This is separate from it going into a pocket dimension, which does not have any claims about needing to cast the spell again. If your familiar hits 0 HP, it's dead until you spend more gold.

Thinking about it, I'd probably also add in a clause where you spend 15 gold x the spell slot level spent. That seems reasonable.

[Elistan]

Pact of the Chain comes online at level 3, and you are proposing allowing all casters to get the primary benefit of the pact (one of the major class features for the Warlock) only 4 levels later. I would be extremely irritated if I chose Chain over Tome or Blade only to have the Wizard summon the exact same familiar a few levels later without making any sacrifice. I think Jack has the right idea, personally. But if you want to do it by slot level, I wouldn't do it below Tier 3 (6th level slots).

[Kane0]

Alternatively, I use this:

Summon Monster
2nd-level Conjuration

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 10 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to one hour

You call forth a single Monstrosity type creature of CR 1 or lower, appearing in a space you can see within range. Roll initiative for the creature, which has its own turns. When you summon it and on each of your turns you can issue a verbal command to it (requiring no action on your part), telling it what to do on its next turn. If you issue no command it spends its turn attacking any creature within reach that has attacked it.
If you stop concentrating on this spell before it reaches its full duration the summoned creature disappears immediately.
At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the CR of the creature you can summon increases by 1 for each slot level above 2nd.

[MaxWilson]

I'm a big fan of modifying the existing 5e system to make cool things happen. One thing I came up with was the ability to upcast Find Familiar to summon better familiars.

As of right now, I'm thinking about just copying the list that Warlocks get, but I might get some ideas to make CR 2 familiars with high level spells.

What spell slot level seems reasonable for a character to cast Find Familiar at to get an Imp or Pseudodragon? I don't want it to be ridiculous or something (level 7 seems way too high), but I don't want it too low and make the appeal of a Pact of the Chain Warlock seem easily circumvented.

Assuming you'd let this fly, what's your recommendation? I'm thinking...slot level 4? (Available at Caster Level 7)

I wouldn't, but if you wanted to research an improved Find Familiar spell (analagous to Find Greater Steed) I'd peg it as level 4 for an Imp/Pseudodragon if it retained the "cannot attack" limitation--though I do find that limitation hard to justify in logical terms and therefore dislike it.

[Segev]

I've read the MM, but it only says "these can become familiars." It doesn't specify...how. Am I missing something?

[Slybluedemon]

Pact of the Chain comes online at level 3, and you are proposing allowing all casters to get the primary benefit of the pact (one of the major class features for the Warlock) only 4 levels later. I would be extremely irritated if I chose Chain over Tome or Blade only to have the Wizard summon the exact same familiar a few levels later without making any sacrifice. I think Jack has the right idea, personally. But if you want to do it by slot level, I wouldn't do it below Tier 3 (6th level slots).

I agree It would make Chain suck if a Wizard could do what it does. I love the idea of finding a creature and sign a contract. They have the variants in the core books for a situation just like it.

[Slybluedemon]

I've read the MM, but it only says "these can become familiars." It doesn't specify...how. Am I missing something?

It would be up to the DM. I would do it just like a warlock. You sign a contract and have conditions on them being a familiar. They are living creatures, they have their own ambitions and agendas.

Maybe an Imp can only be bound by a contract that is signed with the blood of a humanoid that was killed in the last 24 hours (Just like the material component for the Summon Demon spells)

[AureusFulgens]

It would be up to the DM. I would do it just like a warlock. You sign a contract and have conditions on them being a familiar. They are living creatures, they have their own ambitions and agendas.

Maybe an Imp can only be bound by a contract that is signed with the blood of a humanoid that was killed in the last 24 hours (Just like the material component for the Summon Demon spells)

Having to kill something else seems a bit odd for a devil, especially a low-level paper-pusher like an imp (killing a humanoid makes sense for demons because they're howling incarnate insanity bent on destroying reality - devils are subtler). Maybe a contract signed in the caster's own blood, with a minor monetary component.

[Asmotherion]

I wouldn't. If you want better familiar, find the creature you want (assuming it's a creature suitable to being familiar) and make deal with it the usual way. The variant is in the MM for a reason.

And don't be surprised when that creature has its own agenda.

I'd go for a combination of this, and Upcasting.

In other words, you'd first have to meet the fammiliar in the game word, contract it with RP to become your Familiar, and then you can summon it from it's plane by upcasting Find Familiar (CR=Spell Level/3). The Material Cost would go up by 100 more gp per spell level.

[Man_Over_Game]

One thing I do find a bit frustrating is the fact that a lot of people are referring to the Variant Rules as the primary solution. I do want to point out that the Variant Rules don't indicate any kind of structure, or even level, as to when these familiars should be available. Not to mention that these familiars also provide you with Magical Resistance when bonded with those bare-bones Variant Rules.

I'm hoping to not have to rely on those, as there's nothing to really grab on to as a DM. The Variant Rules are basically summarized to "Here's an idea! At some point, someone can get an overpowered familiar if they want to". By drawing on a spell slot requirement, I'm looking to put down a hard number when that can (and should) be a possibility, minus the Magic Resistance on the owner. Using the Variant Rules, as suggested, means players could have an enhanced familiar as low as level 1, definitely stepping on the Warlock's toes.

I'm sorry if I sound crass, but referring to the Variant rules is pretty lazy as a solution. It'd might as well be "Figure it out yourself". Which I'm fine doing, but I really do value your opinions.

If making the Find Familiar spell not a valid option, and you do still recommend the Variant Rules, then what scaling seems appropriate for what CR creature to what level of character?

[Segev]

One thing I do find a bit frustrating is the fact that a lot of people are referring to the Variant Rules as the primary solution. I do want to point out that the Variant Rules don't indicate any kind of structure, or even level, as to when these familiars should be available. Not to mention that these familiars also provide you with Magical Resistance when bonded with those bare-bones Variant Rules.

I'm hoping to not have to rely on those, as there's nothing to really grab on to as a DM. The Variant Rules are basically summarized to "Here's an idea! At some point, someone can get an overpowered familiar if they want to". By drawing on a spell slot requirement, I'm looking to put down a hard number when that can (and should) be a possibility, minus the Magic Resistance on the owner. Using the Variant Rules, as suggested, means players could have an enhanced familiar as low as level 1, definitely stepping on the Warlock's toes.

I'm sorry if I sound crass, but referring to the Variant rules is pretty lazy as a solution. It'd might as well be "Figure it out yourself". Which I'm fine doing, but I really do value your opinions.

If making the Find Familiar spell not a valid option, and you do still recommend the Variant Rules, then what scaling seems appropriate for what CR creature to what level of character?
No, I get where you're coming from. There is a tendency in 5e for people to read what amount to "modification ideas" from (say) 3e's Tome of Battle, and attribute them as much weight as more filled-out rules from, say, 3e's Arcana Unearthed. This is in no small part because 5e is already a little lax on what is and is not a rule, and has other areas where its rules are...less than complete.

I am not trying to restart any arguments here that are off-topic, however. I am mainly just agreeing that, if I haven't missed something, the "variant rules" for specific monsters as familiars are more idle suggestions than actual rules. They're actually more complete than some others, but with less indication of being well thought-out. The rules are, "If the DM wants to have the monster choose to make the deal, and the player has his character treat the monster well, they can partner up in a familiar-type bond with these benefits." Balance is entirely unconsidered, but they're at least complete.

[strangebloke]

Don't do it. Familiars are perfectly serviceable for what they are.

Give out a special familiar as a boon/quest reward. That could be fun.

[Man_Over_Game]

Don't do it. Familiars are perfectly serviceable for what they are.

Give out a special familiar as a boon/quest reward. That could be fun.

A good idea. What level would you recommend that reward?

[MilkmanDanimal]

Allowing Find Familiar to be upcast means a high-level Wizard could cast it once for some extremely powerful/useful familiar, and basically have it around forever. Even a greater gold cost is going to be trivial at that level, so it's really a case here of upcasting makes this spell exponentially more useful. I mean, sure, a few more Magic Missiles is handy, and those extra dice on a Fireball are great, but a CR 3 familiar means you can have, say, a Basilisk, which is far, far more useful than a cat.

This just makes upcasting Find Familiar more effective than upcasting probably any other spell, as you essentially get yourself a significant permanent bonus, as opposed to some incremental bonus of damage or number of targets.

[lperkins2]

So, it's important to have an idea for how the PotC warlock won't get left behind. There's two things to note on that. First, the warlock's familiar gets to attack. Second, the warlock is supposed to have a stronger than normal familiar. Since it gets creatures up to CR 1, instead of CR 0, I'd keep it 1 CR ahead of whatever choice the wizard is getting. The gap between the familiars will close a bit at higher levels, but the ability to attack will still be relevant.

If anything, the warlock should benefit from this more, as currently, the familiar doesn't scale. At level 3, the familiar is potentially very powerful, but 3d6 poison damage doesn't really do much past level 5 or so (plus the lack of HP scaling...)

[Man_Over_Game]

Allowing Find Familiar to be upcast means a high-level Wizard could cast it once for some extremely powerful/useful familiar, and basically have it around forever. Even a greater gold cost is going to be trivial at that level, so it's really a case here of upcasting makes this spell exponentially more useful. I mean, sure, a few more Magic Missiles is handy, and those extra dice on a Fireball are great, but a CR 3 familiar means you can have, say, a Basilisk, which is far, far more useful than a cat.

This just makes upcasting Find Familiar more effective than upcasting probably any other spell, as you essentially get yourself a significant permanent bonus, as opposed to some incremental bonus of damage or number of targets.

I think it is worth mentioning that the only recommendation on scaling up to CR 3 so far (which seems accurate enough as a scaling list) recommends putting CR 3 as high as a level 9 spell, the same level that Wish is available at.

Is it unreasonable for a level 18 caster to have a pet Basilisk? Probably not by that much. But even if a CR 3 was too high (as there are a few things that can be dangerous at that level), what's NOT too high? CR 2?

If a CR 0 is available at level 1, and CR 2 sounds reasonable at level 18, is it unreasonable to look into a CR 1 creature around level 10?

[Man_Over_Game]

So, it's important to have an idea for how the PotC warlock won't get left behind. There's two things to note on that. First, the warlock's familiar gets to attack. Second, the warlock is supposed to have a stronger than normal familiar. Since it gets creatures up to CR 1, instead of CR 0, I'd keep it 1 CR ahead of whatever choice the wizard is getting. The gap between the familiars will close a bit at higher levels, but the ability to attack will still be relevant.

If anything, the warlock should benefit from this more, as currently, the familiar doesn't scale. At level 3, the familiar is potentially very powerful, but 3d6 poison damage doesn't really do much past level 5 or so (plus the lack of HP scaling...)

Enough of a reason for an additional invocation, one that allows you to upgrade your familiar. Maybe make it a series, so that each time you take the Invocation, you can increase the CR of your familiar by 1. I'd probably make this a different thread, though, if this catches enough attention.

[strangebloke]

Don't do it. Familiars are perfectly serviceable for what they are.

Give out a special familiar as a boon/quest reward. That could be fun.

Depends on what the familiar is.

tier 1: owl
tier 2/late tier 1: pseudodragon or slaad tadpole, or any other tiny creature with good traits, but no SLAs.
Tier 3/late tier 2: True improved familiars. Imps, Quasits, sprite.
Tier 4/late tier 3: Pixies and other mini-spellcasters
Tier 4: CR 1 spellcaster minions, essentially. Not sure what I'd go for here.

[Segev]

For a homebrew game, allowing an improved find familiar that is as good or better than the Warlock's Chain Pact is only a problem if you have a Warlock in the party. If you otherwise want to staple on features from other classes to the ones actually in your party, that can just be fun. There's no other player to have their schtick stolen like that.

Therefore, balance would suggest a minimum of level 2 spell slot (3rd character level) for the upcast/improved spell. Maybe as high as 3rd spell level. But if you're going higher than that, you're probably dwarfing the benefit it gives for any reason other than niche protection, and that just says "don't do it" if you are concerned about niche protection.

[dejarnjc]

I think it is worth mentioning that the only recommendation on scaling up to CR 3 so far (which seems accurate enough as a scaling list) recommends putting CR 3 as high as a level 9 spell, the same level that Wish is available at.

Is it unreasonable for a level 18 caster to have a pet Basilisk? Probably not by that much. But even if a CR 3 was too high (as there are a few things that can be dangerous at that level), what's NOT too high? CR 2?

If a CR 0 is available at level 1, and CR 2 sounds reasonable at level 18, is it unreasonable to look into a CR 1 creature around level 10?

Jeez so many unhelpful comments in this thread.

Anyway, I agree with what you say above. I would do the following, CR 0 at level 1, CR 1/4 at level 5, CR 1/2 at level 9, CR 1 at level 11, and CR 2 at level 18. I would create size limitations though and keep it at large or smaller and not allow undead or constructs.

[ATHATH]

If you do this, give the Pact of the Chain similar buffs so that it will always give you a better familiar than an appropriately-leveled Find Familiar spell would.

[Foxhound438]

So, it's important to have an idea for how the PotC warlock won't get left behind.

This is kind of the crux of it. Any power-ups on normal find familiar should be accessible on chain pact to at least the same degree. However, changing the list of available creatures would be really tricky, since at a point you're going out of the realm of "find familiar" as it's intended, and more into the realms of "permanent conjure fey" or something like that.

My approach would be to make the HP scale somewhat with character level (say, just +1 or 2 per level, enough to maybe survive a weak AOE but not really going in to tank), give it your proficiency bonus instead of its to make their skills scale (and maybe add your proficiency to saves for its effects like the poisons on the chain pact options), and maybe (maaaaybe) have tables of minor properties that you can pick one of at level 5/11/17.

Definitely don't let non-chain familiars attack, and probably don't give anything akin to the chain pact invocations, but stuff like "x skill proficiency", or "bonus to move speed" would be fine at level 5, and stuff like "transfer HP to owner" or "use ranged spells from familiar's space rather than just touch" could be appropriate for higher levels.

But at the end of the day, I just wouldn't. Having a simple familiar can be useful even into later levels as an extra body making perception checks, and even gives the typical munchkin arcane trickster in the group advantage on their attacks.

[Cauli]

Pact of the Chain comes online at level 3, and you are proposing allowing all casters to get the primary benefit of the pact (one of the major class features for the Warlock) only 4 levels later. I would be extremely irritated if I chose Chain over Tome or Blade only to have the Wizard summon the exact same familiar a few levels later without making any sacrifice. I think Jack has the right idea, personally. But if you want to do it by slot level, I wouldn't do it below Tier 3 (6th level slots).

Then buff Pact of the Chain and let them get stronger familiars than any regular casters.

[Bobthewizard]

You can't require upcasting but then leave it a ritual. There is no more cost to casting a ninth level ritual vs. a first level ritual. If you were to allow upcasting, I would remove the ritual tag and give it a finite duration of 8 hours. If you want a bigger familiar, you need to spend one of today's spell slots. This keeps it from stepping on the toes of not just the Pact of the Chain warlock, but also the Paladin's find steed spells.

Even with that, since it would last 8 hours and not require concentration, the creature summoned must be much less powerful than a similar level Summon spell from Tasha's. So the chart proposed by Kane0 seems about appropriate, but there still need to be limitations. I'm sure there are some CR1-3 options that would be too much for a non-concentration minion.

If all you want is Imp or Pseudodragon, I'd make it level 5, not a ritual, with an 8 hour duration.

[Mitchellnotes]

You can't require upcasting but then leave it a ritual. There is no more cost to casting a ninth level ritual vs. a first level ritual. If you were to allow upcasting, I would remove the ritual tag and give it a finite duration of 8 hours. If you want a bigger familiar, you need to spend one of today's spell slots. This keeps it from stepping on the toes of not just the Pact of the Chain warlock, but also the Paladin's find steed spells.

Even with that, since it would last 8 hours and not require concentration, the creature summoned must be much less powerful than a similar level Summon spell from Tasha's. So the chart proposed by Kane0 seems about appropriate, but there still need to be limitations. I'm sure there are some CR1-3 options that would be too much for a non-concentration minion.

If all you want is Imp or Pseudodragon, I'd make it level 5, not a ritual, with an 8 hour duration.

One other option would be to increase the cost. Maybe like $1000/spell level? But allow potc locks to cast for free. This would give a boost to find familiar, but make it costly enough that someone wouldnt want to need to recast it. If you are worried about losing a familiar, you're much less likely to put it in harms way. That also helps with the idea of the "disposable familiar" idea

[KorvinStarmast]

I like Jack's thought on it.

The FF spell (and Find Steed) are structured such that it doesn't matter if you lose them.
But make a deal with an imp, it doesn't just come back for 15GP.

In theory the warlock has the Improved FF because he entered into a deal with something more powerful (with its own agenda) This.

I've read the MM, but it only says "these can become familiars." It doesn't specify...how. Am I missing something? No, you aren't missing anything. The variant familiars become NPCs so it adds a little more work for the DM. That is why you may not see much of this going on.

[da newt]

Assuming the party doesn't include a warlock or pet ranger or summon druids or any other class centered around this sort of thing who would be slighted by this house rule, I'd probably use Find Steed and Find Greater Steed as appropriate CR / Level guides but add a duration limit of 24 hrs per casting so that there is a real cost. I'd also limit it to beasts only or similar DM's approval required and absolutely prohibit any creature who can cast or impose conditions.

The familiar is already a very powerful action economy boon as is (especially the chain pact) - I'd be leery to ad much more than fluff otherwise there is potential for abuse / balance issues.

As an afterthought alternate, I might allow non casting martials to gain a battle buddy in order to give them some assistance in keeping up with all the shenanigans available to the full casters ...

Lastly - maybe it would be best to use the sidekick rule set if your Players want to play multiple PCs/creatures?

[Peelee]

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