[3.5] Fighter vs. Adept

[Thurbane]

So, we all know Fighters are whipping boys: they don't get actual class features, you run out of decent bonus feats to invest in etc.

A post I read somewhere on the web recently said that an Adept (NPC class) is a better PC choice than Fighter, and that got me thinking.

What are the benefits and disadvantages of Adept as a player compared to Fighter?

Assume all 1st party ACFs etc. are on the table.

Lets stick with Adept through, and not Magewright.

Cheers - T

[HouseRules]

Start with the Obvious.

Adept Con

Bad BAB
Bad Fort
Bad Ref


Adept Pro

Good Will
Spells

[gkathellar]

The point gets overstated, and a direct comparison is kinda level-dependent, but the Adept is certainly usable as a T4 class. A decent-ish spell list and a familiar are reasonable assets and can be developed effectively with optimization knowledge.

That said, you’re not going to be a combat powerhouse unless your charop kung fu is strong, and your spells per day ain’t doing you any favors.

[HouseRules]

Also, need to compare to Paladin and Ranger since the Adepts have a similar "Role" with also have Divine Spells.

Adepts are weaker in Combat than Paladins and Rangers. They have 3 spell slots + bonus spells per spell level compared to Paladins and Rangers with 4 spell slots + bonus spells per spell level.

[gkathellar]

Adepts do get full CL, though.

[Thurbane]

Also, need to compare to Paladin and Ranger since the Adepts have a similar "Role" with also have Divine Spells.

That's fine, but this thread was specifically in relation to Adepts and Fighters.

[Maat Mons]

A decent-ish spell list and a familiar are reasonable assets and can be developed effectively with optimization knowledge.

I'd still be tempted to take the variant in Eberron Campaign Setting that trades the familiar for a single clerical domain.

[Troacctid]

I think Fighter is better until level 7 and it's not particularly close. Once you hit level 8, the Adept gets a big power spike with animate dead, which helps make up for its terrible spells per day and goes a long way toward evening the score between the two. By level 12, the Fighter has fallen off the power curve and the Adept has gained access to polymorph—I think that's when the Adept pulls ahead.

As a player, however, I would 100% take Fighter over it every time, even at higher levels. It's more interesting to build, more interesting to play, and scales better with optimization. This is also a comparison where Player > Build > Class is going to be really evident. In general, whichever one has the better pilot is going to outperform the other, except at lower levels, in which case I wouldn't be surprised if the Fighter won regardless of skill disparity just because Adept is such garbage.

[Silva Stormrage]

The point gets overstated, and a direct comparison is kinda level-dependent, but the Adept is certainly usable as a T4 class. A decent-ish spell list and a familiar are reasonable assets and can be developed effectively with optimization knowledge.

That said, you’re not going to be a combat powerhouse unless your charop kung fu is strong, and your spells per day ain’t doing you any favors.

So lets just break this down level by level then.

Adepts get Polymorph (at 12th level) and Animate Dead (at 3rd level) both of those spells alone would make it better than a fighter at those levels assuming equal char op.

At lower levels the adept is going to be dramatically weaker without shenanigans. Still highlights on their spell list.

1: Sleep/Cure Light Wounds (They can use wands of cure light wounds)
2: Invisibility/Web/Scorching Ray
3: Animate Dead/Bestow Curse
4: Polymorph/Minor Creation
5: Baleful Polymorph/Commune/Raise Dead/Heal/Break Enchantment

So at levels 1-2 the Adept is probably even with a decently built fighter. Simply via sleep spam when it is still valuable. Even 3 sleeps per day is probably enough to out value the fighter. They can provide out of combat utility with healing and have a slightly better skill list.

Levels 3-7 fighter is probably going to take the lead. The only way Adept stays on par is if they start metamagic/cl boosting their damage spells like scorching ray. Even then they aren't going to overshadow a decently built fighter and a dungeon crasher will massively out damage them. Web can still be encounter ending so adepts aren't useless though.

Levels 8-11: Adept gets animate dead. With proper corpses/effort (Desecrate + Corpse Crafter) he can now animate creatures that can 1v1 the fighter fairly easily. Even by spending Onyx the Adept starts to take a solid lead. The Fighter can have Zhetreiniam fighter and intimidate lock people but that isn't really a fighter specific option as other classes can use imperious command just slightly less effectively.

Levels 12+ Adept has polymorph. Polymorph is just hilariously broken enough that by itself the adept is now a better class than the fighter. Especially if he uses polymorph ON a fighter. Fighter + Adept >>>> 2 Fighters.

Thats my take on it anyway. This analysis ignores other ways the Adept can add spells to his spell list as at that point I feel like it's not truly comparing adept to fighter.

[ericgrau]

@^ That's level 8 to take the lead with some serious optimization. Now for casual play. Yeah, it's not enough to simply be a caster. That is one severely limited spell list. I made the following list before seeing your post:

A = take spell right away
B = take spell late

1A: cause fear, sleep, CLW
1B: bless
2A: CMW, *web*
2B: bull's strength, invisibility
3A: animate dead
3B: -
4A: *polymorph*
4B: restoration
5A: *heal*, wall of stone
5B: raise dead, true seeing, break enchantment

Those are the spells I would even consider preparing at all on a normal day... it's not a long list. Highlights are web, polymorph and heal. Even polymorph needs splatbooks to truly shine. Web and heal aren't enough at all to make the class anything special. Even from MMI or equal power, polymorph has enough sheer versatility to make an ok buffer. Takes level 12 just to come online, and by then even the buffs aren't that spectacular. Seems much worse than fighter at all levels, then barely helpful starting level 12. Finally he's just a bit worse than fighter.

But yeah with a little cheddar you can pull ahead. Nothing I've ever played with or witnessed in my life, but I know some do it. Especially on the internet.



A post I read somewhere on the web recently said that an Adept (NPC class) is a better PC choice than Fighter, and that got me thinking.

What are the benefits and disadvantages of Adept as a player compared to Fighter?
I guess they must have assumed decent optimization. Even then a 12th level fighter can be a good ubercharger, pick up some other tricks and get some versatility from items. A single good 4th level spell vs. 12th level WBL isn't that spectacular. Or even a 3rd plus a 4th. Sure the adept has WBL too, but point is the benefit is greatly diluted. Even in very high optimization I wonder if the above is true about adept + fighter > fighter + fighter. Two well optimized fighters buffed with nice feats and nice magic items might be way better than an adept extra buffing just one fighter. If nothing else then items of polymorph, but there's probably something else. Meanwhile the adept is a much worse combatant even with items and buffs. And he has nothing that great to cast at foes directly. His only hope is if maybe the tweaked out undead minions can actually be better than polymorph.

I wonder if you really can optimize an adept better even compared to a well optimized fighter, or if this is a more severe example of internet exaggeration. Or if they said "Hey, no WBL, that's not a class feature... except onyxes". Even though D&D pretty much requires WBL to function at all. And there are still feats.

[Nifft]

Are we assuming the Adept list is frozen, or do they get access to Spell Compendium material (as recommended but not specified)?

How about the Eberron Adept~ation boost?

[Thurbane]

Are we assuming the Adept list is frozen, or do they get access to Spell Compendium material (as recommended but not specified)?

How about the Eberron Adept~ation boost?

Any official expansion to the Adept is fine (ECS, Complete Champion etc.).

Recommended only - no.

[zfs]

I'd agree with most of the above - Adept's spell list is severely limited but has a few game changers. Polymorph depends on how far afield you're allowed to go to acquire usable forms.

Eberron ACF almost certainly puts Adept ahead if you're allowed to dumpster dive for Domains. Even in Core only, Travel nets you Teleport, Dimension Door and Fly.

[Luccan]

I'd certainly give the edge to Adept once Animate Dead rolls around. Until then, you're mostly playing support. You might be called upon for the odd shotgun blast at low levels, but only if you can plan on a fight with something without too much HP. Of course, in reality you should be a race that lets you take levels in Hexer. Then you get class abilities, your regular spell progression, and you get to pick up the occasional Sorc/Wiz spell

[ATHATH]

Don't forget that Sanctified and Corrupt spells are things- Lahm's Finger Darts deals DEX damage with no attack roll or save, and is just plain nasty when Empowered (if your target isn't immune to it and you have a way to heal off the STR damage).

Create Lantern Archon is also a pretty neat spell.

[Silva Stormrage]

Don't forget that Sanctified and Corrupt spells are things- if metamagic (such as Empower Spell) is applied to it, Lahm's Finger Darts is an insanely good spell on things that aren't immune to ability damage (if you can heal off the ability damage). 5d4 DEX damage with no save or attack roll from a second level spell slot? Yes PLEASE.

Create Lantern Archon is also a pretty neat spell.

Thats a good point that I forgot about. That heavily tips it in favor of the Adept. Maybe at levels 3-6 they are even but there are some GOOD sanctified or corrupt spells.

[ATHATH]

Thats a good point that I forgot about. That heavily tips it in favor of the Adept. Maybe at levels 3-6 they are even but there are some GOOD sanctified or corrupt spells.
Such as Hammer of Righteousness, an uncapped (single-target, unfortunately) blasting spell that deals a d8 of damage per caster level against Evil creatures (1d6 per level against non-Evil ones) with a Fort save for half damage.

Actually, wait, no, now that I've taken a second look at it, it's just a single-target Fireball that deals force damage instead of fire damage, uses d8s instead of d6s against most/many enemies (usually just 1 more point of damage per caster level on average), deals 1d3 points of STR damage to the CASTER, gives a Fort save for half instead of a Ref save for half, can deal nonlethal damage with no penalty, is on different spell lists than Fireball is, has different descriptors than what Fireball has, and has no damage cap. Meh.