View Full Version : Pathfinder Mental Might: A guide to the Awakened Blade
This was getting long in the Path of War guides thread, so I started a dedicated thread.
Welcome! I have written a guide to the Awakened Blade Prestige Class from Dreamscarred Press's Path of War.
The guide can be found here. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uc6K8TaMiTCGiV5pxOxbSXURBTp_MCY9Bxz3Cnn7IhA/edit?usp=sharing)
On second thought, you may very well be correct in this, actually. At least for most types of soul knife builds. Blade skills are a very big deal.
Most of what you gain from Awakened Blade can be gained from riven hourglass maneuvers and Sleeping Goddess style, and the requirements are annoying enough that I don't really see it helping.
Oh, now I get it! Sorry, seems I lost my reading comprehension and also missed both the pathwalker entry and the (obvious) entry class category divide for some weird reason. :smallredface: Thanks for the Awakening!
Anywho, it was the path of the warrior description which - while technically true in general - struck me as a bit misleading:
"Path of the warrior*: These classes are generally poor choices for the manifesting side of an Awakened Blade. As you need at least 3 levels in these classes to get any benefit from this ability, using them as the initiating side of a progression will leave you many manifester levels down by the end of things. This ability doesn’t do enough to make up for that."
But now that I'm Awakened and have read the guide more thoroughly, I'm much less sure whether there should be a mention of the pathwalker exception here. I guess unlike myself, a very large majority of readers don't read in their sleep or suffer from serious cognitive deficiencies, and thus have no problem understanding once they read the psy-war entry?
I originally had that as orange, and I'll move it back there because of the Pathwalker.
Speaking of potentially misleading, nitpick: At least in the guide's current WIP state, I believe the "Entry" description/advice makes a bit too widely sweeping generalization, specifically:
"You will get the greatest benefit out of Awakened Blade if you use it to advance a full manifester, as classes with reduced manifesting progression make up for it through a better chassis and class features, neither of which are advanced by Awakened Blade. /snip/ Thus, generally the initiator class is picked for the recovery method and initiating attribute rather than class features."
You're likely already fully aware of the reason why I'm saying this, but just in case:
There are plenty of exceptions to this depending on what your build priorities are (aside from game specific parameters like start and end levels). Most notably, if you're prioritizing greater and earlier (melee) combat capabilities over general adventuring versatility, the main purpose of your manifesting is typically to provide you with sufficiently action-efficient and powerful options to enable and boost your "buff-'n'-bash" combat style, and almost the opposite of what you're saying here is likely to be true. Meaning the choice of class(es) making up the initiator side is more important, or even absolutely vital and build defining, because of class features other than maneuvers and recovery, while the manifester side may very well contain fewer levels and the optimal choice is primarily dictated by the specifics and demands of the initiator side rather than the other way around.
This is especially true in the case of builds looking to excel in combat role(s) other than the traditional "single-target striker", as effective control/debuff/defender styles typically rely more on - and/or more greatly benefit from - mechanics not provided by AB and manifester levels. And yet, perhaps somewhat counter-intuitively, the AB probably stands out as even more superior for such less conventional and more highly combat focused melee builds than it does for other builds.
I did come off a bit strong there, but I find that there are very few low-level class features that remain relevant. If you want a control/debuff/defender character, I find that you can usually achieve it through picking the right maneuvers. As a general rule, if you want a class's class features, you don't prestige out of it. A pure Zealot is going to make a better martial defender than a Zealot/Wilder/Awakened Blade, as none of the Awakened Blade's class features help defend others.
Have to say I am enjoying a Vitalist/Medic/Awakened Blade that focuses on Radiant Dawn and Sleeping Goddess. Definitely not a melee damage dealer build, but the combination of Triage with the Fast Healing expertise and Collective healing means that the build can effectively heal through encounters without wasting action economy. Using disciplines with utility and control manuevers also helps expand the limited tool kit of a Vitalist.
Maybe not the most optimized combination, but seems to hold up solidly.
Perfectly reasonable and a nice support build.
Make sure you rate the Nightmare "stupidly good" as an entry. Your maneuver recovery is excellent, your action economy is amazing, and it eventually gets to ignore fear immunity, making black seraph amazing even at high level, and can make strikes as touch attacks. It's a better dread than the dread, AB lets you cheese it harder if you really want. Only downside is that getting Psi meditation is a heavy tax, and that'll be almost all your powers known by 5th level.
It is quite nice, and the greater melee focus helps you use Aura of Fear.
Kaouse
2018-10-17, 08:14 PM
Host of Heroes Aegis emulating the Overmind Monomyth who took the "Potential" ability twice for both Defensive and Offensive Precognition, as well as Initiator's Soul, can also qualify for solo entry into the Awakened Blade after 6 levels of Aegis. They can even put the increase in manifestor levels towards CP advancement, and have Student of the Astral Suit to cover the missed levels. YMMV on how worthwhile it is to do this as a Host of Heroes Aegis, though. You can basically never change your Monomyth, and you probably can't progress your Monomyth with Awakened Blade either.
Host of Heroes Aegis emulating the Overmind Monomyth who took the "Potential" ability twice for both Defensive and Offensive Precognition, as well as Initiator's Soul, can also qualify for solo entry into the Awakened Blade after 6 levels of Aegis. They can even put the increase in manifestor levels towards CP advancement, and have Student of the Astral Suit to cover the missed levels. YMMV on how worthwhile it is to do this as a Host of Heroes Aegis, though. You can basically never change your Monomyth, and you probably can't progress your Monomyth with Awakened Blade either.
Technically, you can just take it once and use Unlocked Talent for the second power. I'll put in a bit about progressing Aegis with it, because Aegis 3/Initiator 1/Psion 1/Awakened Blade 10 can have IL 15 and 15th level astral suit.
Kaouse
2018-10-18, 01:44 PM
Unlocked Talent sucks for the Aegis though, since it requires Wild Talent first, and the Aegis is in the rather unfortunate position where any Psionic Race that would grant him Wild Talent has it transformed into Psionic Talent instead.
Unlocked Talent sucks for the Aegis though, since it requires Wild Talent first, and the Aegis is in the rather unfortunate position where any Psionic Race that would grant him Wild Talent has it transformed into Psionic Talent instead.
Yeah, it's two feats for a pretty small benefit. Probably not worthwhile.
I did come off a bit strong there, but I find that there are very few low-level class features that remain relevant.Huh? There's tons of them! I mean, there are very good reasons why many martial classes, Paizo ones and especially initiators, are called front-loaded and MC-friendly. Here's just a few notable examples (with minimum numbers at 20th assuming a dip at 1st and 10 levels of AB, and no traits or feats):
Warder (and compatible archetypes) 1
+2 Fort and Will
IL 15, Int or Wis
3 readied maneuvers of up to 7th, 6th and 5th level (and one 1st level stance), chosen from 5 disciplines
Defensive focus for bonus Int or Wis-based Combat Reflexes and full-round recovery with 1 round +20' melee reach
Fiend's grip(s) (best control/defender weapon in the game)
Warlord (Privateer) 1
IL 15, Cha
4 readied maneuvers of up to 7th, 6th, 5th and 4th level (and one 1st level stance), chosen from 5 disciplines
Free Improved & Greater Dirty Trick bypassing prereqs (thus also granting access to Dirty Trick Master at bab +11)
Daring Gambit w. Dastardly Gambit for swift action DT luck bonus, success granting class-agnostic party-wide recovery and +Cha mod morale to damage on next attack vs target
Dazzling Gambit for free action demoralize all within 30' on gambit success
Monk (Master of Many Styles) 1
+2 to all saves
Monk unarmed strikes (and monk unarmored Wis AC bonus for very high total AC potential if Dex/Wis based)
Bonus IUS, Stunning Fist and any (Combat, Style) feat bypassing prereqs (so also access to feats in PoW style chain w/o stance in related discipline)
Fuse styles for simultaneous use of 2 style feat stances (allows for huge number of great combos)
Monk (Monk of the Silver Fist) 1
+2 to all saves
IL 15, Wis
3 readied maneuvers of up to 7th, 6th and 5th level (and one 1st level stance), chosen from 3 disciplines
Shielding Fist for "gauntlet bucklers" adding gauntlet enhancement as shield enhancement (compatible with Wis AC bonus for extremely high total AC potential if Dex/Wis based)
Gauntlet Strike including bonus IUS and Weapon Focus (all gauntlet-like) and
One monk bonus feat or Improved Shield Bash, Buckler Bash, or Mithral Current Style, bypassing prereqs
Note that none of the initiators above would gain as high IL or swaps to as high level maneuvers without 10 levels in AB (or another initiator PrC). Especially in the case of the MoSF and other initiating archetypes, as those cannot even access maneuvers above 6th without Advanced Study or other initiator PrC levels. These additional readied maneuvers also increase the defender capabilities of an AB build even if they're only used to enable access to other maneuvers and to fuel clairsentient counter (which can often provide great "nope" protection also of allies by interrupting AoE spells/abilities).
If you want a control/debuff/defender character, I find that you can usually achieve it through picking the right maneuvers.Only up to a certain point, and that point is nowhere near that which is possible with combos including both class features from dips and maneuvers AFAIK. This often due to the many early level class features which grant bonus feats and other mechanics allowing for more easily adding free action combat maneuvers (at any time) to any melee hit, significantly improving the control/debuff and defender power of melee strikes. On top of potentially also granting numeric bonuses scaling outside of class levels, boosting various values of especially great importance for these kinds of builds (such as the MoSF's shielding fist and the warder's defensive focus reach increase in the examples above). In addition, the fact that maneuvers are generally mutually exclusive in their use means any other option which can provide a great or vital mechanic continuously instead of a maneuver will often provide a fantastic boost to action economy, reliability and combat versatility, making you less tied down to specific maneuvers and often allowing you to get much more out of the maneuvers you use.
Here's an example warder build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21860394&postcount=240) I made which I think illustrates this very well (though the very niche grappling control/defender style of this build is unfortunately one of those rare few less compatible with AB levels AFAIK).
As a general rule, if you want a class's class features, you don't prestige out of it.And what I'm saying is that this isn't nearly as general a rule as one might assume, because the AB may often grant much greater total benefits also to control/debuff defender melee style combos than additional levels in other classes may. Again, especially in the case of most martial initiators - and even more in the case of most initiator archetypes - due to their commonly inherently front-loaded nature and early level class feature benefits scaling also outside of class levels (and sometimes scaling significantly better with AB levels, as in the case of archetype maneuvers).
A pure Zealot is going to make a better martial defender than a Zealot/Wilder/Awakened Blade, as none of the Awakened Blade's class features help defend others.Really? That would have to be one darn serious monster defender zealot... :smalleek:
And as far as I know this isn't even remotely close to the truth, but I'd love to stand corrected! Perhaps you could present a pure zealot build clearly more able to protect a party than say Nelly Nephilim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21556361&postcount=89) is (the build summary in the link doesn't include the IL scaling errata changes, so Nelly's non-zealot maneuvers listed are far weaker than they should be):
This section details Nelly's (practically) always active melee attack hit effects and the rather complex chains of actions these effects may grant, plus her typical pre-combat preparations and her typical tactics during combat.
Basic Melee Combos
A large portion of Nelly's build options are geared towards improving her melee attacks, regardless of the action taken which included the melee attack (strike, combat maneuver, AoO, charge, etc) or when she took it (during her own turn or outside of it), and - as far as possible - also regardless of the target's passive melee defenses (AC and CMD values, size, immunities etc). These options make up combinations which primarily provide free action demoralization and combat maneuvers which may stack increasingly severe penalties on the target, and grant Nelly additional control options and additional attacks against the target in the form of AoOs, potentially forming very long chains of actions with devastating total effects.
In the hopes of making this a bit easier to grasp, I've divided the main components of mentioned chains into three distinct combos.
Thunderbull Gauntlet Bashing Combo
This combo forms the basis of Nelly's action chains and requires plenty of build resources. Although virtually all components are likely to provide benefits (not necessarily listed below) during all levels, the combo isn't fully online until Nelly reaches 11th level when her zealot IL and Awakened Blade levels allow her to pick Stance of the Thunderbrand:
Level
Class
Key Components
Key Mechanics
Resulting Combo
1
Monk 1
Gauntlet strike, shielding fist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/dreamscarred-press---monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-silver-fist-monk-archetype), Improved Shield Bash
Gauntlet strike and shielding fist makes (any) gauntlets count as bucklers in addition to their other effects/properties. Improved Shield Bash is a prerequisite for Shield Slam.
Nelly's (spiked) gauntlets are also treated as bucklers and she can make shield bashes without losing the shield bonus (but she must still use a light or heavy shield to bash).
3
Warder 1
Combat Reflexes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder) based on Wis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/ordained-defender-warder-archetype), fiend’s grip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/fiendbound-marauder-warder-archetype)
Additional AoOs equal to Wis mod each round, and the ability to manifest fiend's grips which are treated as spiked gauntlets and natural attacks.
Nelly can make additional AoOs and the radius of the area she threatens with her fiend’s grips/gauntlets increases with a distance equal to her natural reach.
4
Warlord 1
Two-Weapon Fighting
The second feat in the classic shield fighting chain and also prerequisite for Shield Slam.
-
11
Awakened Blade 3
Buckler Bash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Buckler-Bash-Combat-), Shield Slam (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shield-slam-combat---final), Stance of the Thunderbrand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/piercing-thunder-maneuvers#TOC-Stance-of-the-Thunderbrand)
Buckler Bash allows making shield bashes with a buckler, Shield Slam grants a free action bull rush on a shield bash hit, and the stance means any movement in threatened area provokes an AoO.
Nelly can make a bull rush attempt as a free action on any hit with her fiend’s grip, and the movement caused by her bull rush provokes an AoO from her.
At 20th level, Nelly can effectively make up to 7 bull rushes, provoking and triggered by 6 AoOs (or 17 bull rushes and 16 AoOs with Oath of Eternity), all against a target she hits once with any kind of melee attack. Provided she keeps hitting and successfully bull rushing the target, of course.
Soulless Seraph of Sarenrae Combo
In order to demoralize a large majority of her opponents as far into uselessness as possible, Nelly uses a fairly standard combination of demoralization related feats, their mechanics enabled by a somewhat non-standard trait for an aasimar who "falls" from a Good alignment. This standard combo is in Nelly's case also enhanced with an item and some options from the Privateer class template:
Level
Class
Key Components
Key Mechanics
Resulting Combo
3
Warder 1
Black Seraph's Glare, fiend's grip
The Black Seraph stance is a prerequisite for the Black Seraph Style feat and gives a free demoralize attempt vs hit enemy, and a fiend's grip is a slashing weapon.
Nelly can demoralize enemies she hits as a free action, and uses a slashing weapon (condition for gaining the benefits of the Blade of Mercy trait, see below).
4
Warlord 1
Daring gambit, dazzling gambit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/martial-class-templates/privateer-template)
Grants a warlord gambit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord#TOC-Warlord-s-Gambit-Ex-), and a free demoralize attempt vs enemies within 30' when successfully performing a warlord gambit.
Nelly can demoralize all enemies within 30' as a free action when she successfully performs her warlord gambit.
8
Zealot 4
Enforcer
Grants free demoralize attempt vs enemy damaged by nonlethal damage.
Nelly can demoralize enemies she damages with nonlethal damage as a free action, without having to be in the Black Seraph's Glare stance.
9
Awakened Blade 1
Additional Traits (Blade of Mercy), Black Seraph Style
Blade of Mercy allows dealing nonlethal damage with slashing weapons w/o penalties. Black Seraph Style grants a scaling bonus to saves and AC vs creatures suffering from fear conditions.
Nelly can use Enforcer with her fiend's grips w/o penalties for dealing nonlethal damage, and gains a scaling profane bonus to defenses against attacks/abilities of scared opponents.
10
Awakened Blade 2
Intimidating Prowess
Adds Str mod in addition to Cha mod to Intimidate skill checks.
Nelly gains a bonus to Intimidate equal to her Str mod, ensuring her demoralization attempts always succeeds against non-immune creatures.
13
Awakened Blade 5
Fiendskin
At least two damnation feats are required to gain the key benefit of Soulless Gaze (see below).
-
15
Awakened Blade 7
Black Seraph's Malevolence, Black Seraph Annihilation
Creatures within 30' lose immunity to fear effects (even if immune to mind-affecting).
Nelly's demoralization attempts ignores the immunities of targets within 30' of her.
19
Zealot 5
Soulless Gaze, Menacing Mask*
When demoralizing a target already demoralized, its fear condition may become more severe rather than have its duration extended. The Menacing Mask grants a +10 competence bonus to Intimidate.
Whenever Nelly demoralizes an opponent she has already demoralized, the fear condition increases (up to panicked/cowering from 3 successful attempts), and her Intimidate checks always succeeds.
*Approximate level when the item is gained.
In short, Nelly is one seriously scary cameraph (= camel-seraph, meaning an angel-blooded aasimar of gamla descent). Again, please note that Soulless Gaze was deliberately delayed until the next to final level, being an extremely powerful feat which would be much more likely to feel/be OP if gained earlier, especially by a competent melee combatant having plenty of highly synergizing mechanics (like Nelly).
Dirty Opportunism Combo
To really ramp up the power of her AoOs and her ability to chain multiple AoOs from a single trigger, Nelly's final distinctive melee combo consists of a warlord's gambit, dirty trick feats, Seize the Opportunity and a few boosting items (the most significant listed below). This dirty trick combo gives Nelly a good chance to debuff her enemies with sure-fire, long-lasting and serious penalties from 4th level and onward, and its Dirty Trick Master "capstone" (deliberately delayed until the final level), grants Nelly the ability to nauseate or daze an enemy, completely removing it from combat using no more than two AoOs (naturally chained through her Thunderbull Gauntlet Bashing combo detailed above).
Level
Class
Key Components
Key Mechanics
Resulting Combo
4
Warlord 1
Dastardly gambit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord#TOC-Warlord-s-Gambit-Ex-), salt in the wound (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/martial-class-templates/privateer-template) (Improved and Greater Dirty Trick)
Dastardly gambit grants Cha mod luck bonus to dirty trick attempt, and the two feats grants the usual combat maneuver feat benefits, extends the duration and changes the required action to remove a condition imposed by dirty trick from move to standard.
Nelly can make a dirty trick gambit, has a +4 to dirty trick CMB and can make dirty tricks without provoking. A condition applied by her dirty trick typically lasts longer than normal and the target must spend a standard action to remove it.
5
Zealot 1
Seize the Opportunity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats)
Allows making an attack action or standard action combat maneuver in place of the normal attack as an AoO.
Nelly can make a dirty trick attempt instead of a normal melee attack when making an AoO.
12*
Awakened Blade 4
Dueling (PSFG (http://archivesofnethys.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dueling%20(PSFG) )/psionic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/psionic-weapons#TOC-Dueling)) Amulet of Mighty Fists
Provides a luck bonus equal to twice the enhancement bonus to dirty trick performed with the weapon (in addition to the enhancement bonus).
Nelly gains up to a +14 luck bonus to her dirty trick attempts made with her fiend's grips (meaning virtually all her dirty trick attempts).
20
Zealot 6
Dirty Trick Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-trick-master-combat)
When successfully making a dirty trick against a target already suffering from a condition from previous dirty trick, the existing condition can be worsened in place of adding a different normal condition.
When Nelly succeeds on a dirty trick attempt against an enemy dazzled or sickened from a previous dirty trick, she can make the enemy dazed or nauseated so the enemy can not remove the condition.
*Approximate level when the item is gained.
In short, since two dirty trick AoOs can nauseate or daze an enemy for several rounds, Nelly can remove up to at least 3 enemies from combat each round with her 6 AoOs (or up to at least 8 enemies during a round when she uses Oath of Eternity). Besides the silly power of Dirty Trick Master, I personally think the most noteworthy aspect of this combo is how darn cheap it comes, primarily because of the amazing prereq bypassing freebies granted by the Privateer warlord dip. Apparently Nelly's a salty dame, and the soundtrack of her combat style (https://youtu.be/whQQpwwvSh4), as well as her fall from grace (https://youtu.be/gEPmA3USJdI?t=90), was obviously written by her old pirate crew of ancient rocker grognards from "down under"... :smalltongue:
Other Components
The "Big 3" combos above are also supported and complemented by several additional components, most notably:
Gargantuan Size and 55' Reach granted by her gamla heritage (gained at birth), (minor) metamorphosis (gained at 12th and 17th level), fiend's grip (at 4th), protection mission (at 8th), Stance of the Thunderbrand (at 11th) and wand of long arm (plus Use Magic Device ranks, at approx. 14th). These components multiply the value of all her other options which improve her melee attacks and vastly increase her capabilities as a defender, and grant large bonuses to CMB and allow her to ignore nearly all size difference caps on combat maneuvers.
Grab ability of the fiend's grip (gained at 4th), providing Nelly with a free grapple attempt on each melee hit.
Constrict ability of the Anaconda's Coils Belt (gained at approx. 13th), enabling Nelly to deal constrict damage - and therefore also to make additional free demoralize attempts - with each successful grapple attempt.
Fiend's Grips treated as both spiked gauntlets and natural attacks, allowing Nelly to simultaneously gain any magic abilities of her gauntlets as well as other items or spells (such as an Amulet of Mighty Fists or a strong jaw spell), granting her increased versatility and a considerable boost to wealth in especially higher levels.
Furious (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/furious), Leveraging (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/leveraging) and Psychic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/psionic-weapons#TOC-Psychic) Weapon and various minor items (the first gained at approx. 12th), providing very substantial bonuses (up to +42(!) to reposition and trip) for a relatively low cost to several of Nelly's CMB checks.
A bunch of maneuvers boosting combat maneuvers and/or granting multiple attacks.
Combined Result
When all the above is in place at 20th, a single successful melee attack, granted by any action at any time, can provide for example the following chain of actions (average damage, indentation means the listed action is dependent on the last previous action(s) with less indentation being successful):
1 Free - grapple attempt granted by grab (usually only made during Nelly's own turn in order to not prevent her from releasing the grapple and making further AoOs): target moved to adjacent to Nelly and both are grappled
2 None - constrict granted by grapple and Anaconda’s Coils Belt: 44 damage
3 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer and constrict damage: target is shaken and Nelly gains +5 profane to AC and saves vs the target's attacks/abilities
4 Free - Nelly ends grapple: target and Nelly are no longer grappled
5 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer and damage of initial attack (if any): target is sickened for 1 round (Cruel Weapon) and frightened
6 Free - bull rush attempt granted by Buckler Bash and Shield Slam: moving target at least 5' after:
7 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: target dazzled
8 Free - grapple attempt as 1 above
9 None - constrict as 2 above
10 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer and constrict damage: target is panicked, dropping anything it holds
11 Free - Nelly ends grapple as 4 above
12 Free - lock attempt granted by Lesson VI: Supremacy (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jWw7bVMARxrXfRuOW20NlRqXEnS_XGLPT6LHTbz2qME/edit#heading=h.xx2gm1b9axxq): target is locked (must make Reflex save vs DC 38 to move)
13 Free - bull rush as 6 above
14 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: target dazed
15 Free - grapple attempt as 1 above
16 None - constrict as 2 above
17 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer and constrict damage: target is panicked for additional rounds
18 Free - Nelly ends grapple as 4 above
19 Free - bull rush as 6 above
(And so on, up to a total of 4 additional AoOs, each dealing 65 damage or imposing additional dirty trick conditions, and triggering subsequent grabs, bull rushes and demoralization attempts, increasing the number of rounds the target is panicked)
20 Automatic - target is pushed back the total distance (typically more than 15') caused by successful bull rushes (6, 13 and 19 above)
So in total, the target takes at least 132 damage and is locked, sickened for 1 round, dazed for typically more than 2 rounds, panicked (or cowering) for typically at the very least 6 rounds, and bull rushed at least 15' back and potentially knocked prone. This is in addition to any damage dealt and any other effects caused by the initial hit triggering the combo.
Basic Tactics
Before Combat
Nelly adopts Lesson VI: Supremacy (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jWw7bVMARxrXfRuOW20NlRqXEnS_XGLPT6LHTbz2qME/edit#heading=h.xx2gm1b9axxq) with Stance of Thunderbrand and manifests banshee’s hearing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_DKnAARY4I9Q16jCacwm2X-KVmnKObs6J_FBIgZrOc8/edit) and heartbinding (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_DKnAARY4I9Q16jCacwm2X-KVmnKObs6J_FBIgZrOc8/edit) at the start of each day (both powers having a 12 hours duration), preferably targeting another Str based frontline combatant in her collective with heartbinding so Nelly and the target can share morale bonuses throughout the day. Yes, that means an ally of Nelly gains all the bonuses of her rage without any of the penalties; +6 to Str and Con, and +2 to Will saves.
When Nelly suspects she's likely to run into enemies within minutes, she starts cycling Time Skitter, manifests metamorphosis (11 min. duration, effects detailed in build summary) using her cognizance crystals before using her own PP reserve, and uses her wands of contingent action (5 min.), fly (6 min.), long arm (5 min.), and strong jaw (7 min.). At this high level, Nelly typically sets the contingent action to enter the Black Seraph Style stance, to be triggered when she rolls initiative, but if she believes she won't face any enemies immune to fear or mind-affecting, she may instead use the granted action to make an additional strike in the first round. These effects are included in the build summary. In addition, if Nelly believes the upcoming battle will be very challenging, she can also manifest metamorphosis on one or more of her allies through the Shared Power feat, and activate her Boots of the Battle Herald, sharing also those morale bonuses via heartbinding (these effects are not included in the build summary).
During Combat
Coming soonTM!
Credit to exelsisxax for general hole-poking!
In order to show Nelly's 20th level combat mechanics against truly dangerous opponents and hopefully provide at least a glimpse of her actual in-game combat effectiveness, without me having to write the equivalent of a PhD thesis on the subject, I'm going to describe an opening round in a somewhat simplified fight against Pazuzu (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/demon-lords/demon-lord-pazuzu) (the CR 30 demon lord). Since Nelly is rather heavily optimized to be effective in a primary defender/controller (secondary leader) combat role, she should be capable of beating the opposition on her own while also protecting and supporting a few useless squishy allies, even if Pazuzu has brought along say three balor lords (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/balor/balor-lord) (CR 25 each, let's call them "Leftbal", "Midbal" and "Rightbal"). For simplicity's sake, I've assumed that Nelly and her useless allies encounter these monsters in some dark featureless place with plenty of room to move, starting about 60' from the enemies (when a combatant is first able to see and target an opponent):
http://res.cloudinary.com/upho/image/upload/q_100/v1484447431/Nelly_vs_Pazuzu_y0ptnj.png
LB = Leftbal, MB = Midbal, RB = Rightbal
P = Pazuzu (flying 20' above ground)
N = Nelly (flying 20' above ground)
A = Nelly's PC allies
I've also assumed that no combatant is surprised and all have some rudimentary knowledge of the opposition's strength gleaned from scouting, Knowledge skill checks, potential previous run-ins etc. (For Nelly, this would include say approximate minimum CR and maybe the most obvious creature/class type, meaning something along the lines of "one unique(ly) badass demon lord of a CR above 28, and three martially oriented balor-ish demons, each of a CR above 24".)
The following describes the combatants' likely actions and their effects, including average damage (adjusted for hit chance but not including crit damage, rounded to closest integer) and average/typical chances and results of other effects. As before, indentation means the listed action is dependent on the last previous action(s) with less indentation being successful. Note also that outside of the rules specifically for AoOs, there are AFAIK no general rules detailing the order in which to resolve multiple free and potentially interrupting actions triggered by one single event and/or its immediate effects, so in the cases when the rules are silent I've assumed the creature performing the actions in question decides the order. Naturally, I've tried to adhere strictly to RAW.
1 Initiative roll
Nelly has the highest initiative bonus so she is likely to act first.
2 Automatic by Nelly
Nelly's contingent action is triggered, and she enters Black Seraph Style stance.
3 Standard by Nelly
Nelly initiates Lord of the Pridelands: Nelly and her allies gain +10 morale to hit, damage, AC, and saves for 1 round (assuming her allies are 3 PCs and at least one of them has a familiar/AC/eidolon or similar).
4 Free by Nelly
Nelly uses Precognitive Defenses by expending her psionic focus to initiate Oath of Eternity: for 1 round, Nelly's AoOs deals +3d6 damage and curses target for 1 round, and she can make a total of 16 AoOs.
5 Move by Nelly
Nelly flies off to pick a fight, moving 55' straight north to within 10' of Pazuzu and 30' of the balor lords (of course taking the opportunity to call the demon lord "A chicken little chicken!" and cackle mockingly for emphasis). Nelly would have automatically succeeded on the save vs Pazuzu's Aura of Locusts (Fortitude +44 vs DC 43), but she does not need make the throw as Pazuzu is pushed back at least 20', after he takes 179 damage (mostly nonlethal) and becomes blinded for at least 2 rounds, cowering for 3 rounds, cursed and sickened for 1 round and dazed for 10 rounds:
5.1 Free - Precognitive Defenses by Nelly expending her Deep Focus, triggered by Nelly being exposed to Pazuzu's Aura of Locusts, allowing her to initiate Break the Hourglass
5.2 Move granted by Break the Hourglass - in this situation, Nelly unfortunately can't use this move for anything more constructive than going "Nye, nye, nye, nye, nye!" at Pazuzu and sticking out her tongue at him
5.3 Standard granted by Break the Hourglass - Hammer of the Immortal vs Pazuzu: 95% hit chance (+57 vs AC 48) for 98 damage, -4 AC and CMD, and Nelly and her allies gain +2 morale to attack for 2 rounds
5.4 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer: Pazuzu shaken for 3 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 57) and Nelly gains +5 profane to AC and saves vs his attacks
5.5 Swift - Dastardly Gambit: Nelly gains +6 luck to dirty trick (doesn't stack with the +14 luck already granted by Nelly's Dueling (PFSG) Amulet of Mighty Fists)
5.6 Free - dirty trick attempt granted by Hammer of the Immortal: 90% chance of Pazuzu being blinded for at least 2 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 88); Nelly recovers Hammer of the Immortal, allies recover 1 maneuver (and all gain +6 morale to damage which doesn't stack with the +10 already granted by Lord of the Pridelands)
5.7 Free - Hypercognitive Focus granted by Nelly recovering a maneuver: Nelly regains her Deep Focus
5.8 Free - Intimidate attempt vs enemies within 30' granted by Dazzling Gambit: Pazuzu frightened for 3 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 57), and the balor lords are shaken for 6 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 43), and Nelly gains +5 profane to AC and saves vs their attacks as well
5.9 Free - grapple attempt granted by grab: 0% success chance since Pazuzu is protected by constant freedom of movement (Though not listed, Nelly might make additional free grapple attempts on her following hits (5.11, 5.14 and 5.16 below) without realizing the futility of it.)
5.10 Free - bull rush attempt granted by Buckler Bash and Shield Slam: 99% success chance (bull rush CMB +74 best of two rolls vs CMD 77), moving Pazuzu at least 5' after:
5.11 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - 95% hit chance for 81 damage and Pazuzu is cursed and sickened for 1 round
5.12 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer: Pazuzu panicked for 3 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 57), dropping the Scepter Of Shibaxet
5.13 Free - bull rush as 5.10 above
5.14 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: Pazuzu dazzled for 5 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 77)
5.15 Free - bull rush attempt as 5.10 above
5.16 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: Pazuzu dazed for 10 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 77)
5.17 Free - bull rush attempt as 5.10 above
5.18 Automatic - Pazuzu is pushed back the total distance (typically at least 20') caused by successful bull rushes (5.10, 5.13, 5.15 and 5.17 above)
6 Standard by Leftbal
In their current positions, none of the balor lords are close enough to Nelly's allies to be able to see and target them, so the demons are therefore likely to decide to first concentrate on the most immediate threat, meaning Nelly. Especially since that threat just made their boss soil his feathers in fear before hitting him over the head so hard even the balors can see the obligatory imaginary little chattering quasits flying in circles around their leader, cartoon style. So unless Leftbal decides to simply flee instead of attacking (unlikely), it must try to either charge Nelly, move south towards where it probably has heard Nelly's allies, and/or cast a spell. Going by the tactics section in the bestiary entry for balor lords, Leftbal is most likely to try using a damaging SLA, like firestorm, targeting the whole space Nelly occupies. And if Leftbal does so, all three balor lords are most likely doomed, each one taking 98 damage (mostly nonlethal), being frightened for 12 rounds, dazed for 16 rounds and pushed back up to at least 30', while Leftbal's firestorm never occurs since Nelly's immediate response to the threat interrupts the balor's action to use the SLA:
6.1 Immediate - Clairsentient Counter by Nelly expending her Deep Focus and Hunting Party, triggered by Nelly potentially being affected by Leftbal's firestorm
6.2 Standard granted by Clairsentient Counter - Hammer of the Immortal vs Leftbal: 95% hit chance (+57 vs AC 33) for 98 damage, -4 AC and CMD, and Leftbal is sickened for 1 round (and Nelly and her allies gain +2 morale to attack for 2 rounds)
6.3 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer: Leftbal is frightened for 6 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 43)
6.4 Free - dirty trick attempt granted by Hammer of the Immortal: Leftbal is dazzled for 8 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 62)
6.5 Free - bull rush attempt granted by Buckler Bash and Shield Slam: 99% success chance (bull rush CMB +74 best of two rolls vs CMD 62), moving Leftbal up to at least 15' after:
6.6 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: Leftbal is cursed for 1 round and dazed for 16 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 62)
6.7 Free - bull rush as 6.5 above
6.8 Automatic - Leftbal is pushed back the total distance (typically up to at least 30') caused by successful bull rushes (6.5 and 6.7 above)
6.9 None - Hammer of the Immortal vs Midbal: as 6.2 - 6.8 above but against Midbal
6.10 None - Hammer of the Immortal vs Rightbal: as 6.2 - 6.8 above but against Rightbal
Resources Spent When the first round ends, Nelly has expended Hunting Party and all her readied zealot/awakened blade maneuvers except Temporal Body Adjustment, Thrashing Dragon Twist and Time Skitter, plus her psionic focus and Deep Focus. She has also used her Hypercognitive Focus for the round and made 6 AoOs (10 additional AoOs possible before the start of her next turn).
Clearly, Pazuzu and his balor lords lost this fight almost before it started. As they end up dazed and cowering or frightened for several rounds, Nelly and her allies have plenty of time to take care of the beaten demons in the way they prefer before Pazuzu is able to threaten anyone with so much as bad language.
Due to Pazuzu's +13 to Initiative and the inherently fluky nature of opposed d20 rolls, there's a considerable risk Pazuzu wins the initiative and may act before Nelly. But even if he can do so, he still doesn't stand much of chance against her in a straight up fight like this. None of his SLAs or (Su) abilities has a DC high enough to affect Nelly while she's affected by Lord of the Pridelands, and even should she not be, none of his SLAs will be effective and none of his (Su) abilities will have more than a 40% chance to succeed if Nelly makes a saving throw (the most powerful ones being avoided with a successful Fortitude or Will save vs DC 43). But most importantly, any effect he tries to expose Nelly to can be countered by her Clairsentient Counter or Break the Hourglass, meaning Pazuzu grants Nelly up to a standard and a move action to interrupt his triggering standard action each time he uses any such offensive SLA or (Su) ability. On top of that, Nelly's Precognitive Defenses, Deep Focus and Hypercognitive Focus ensures she may typically make two such interrupting counters per round at any time, in addition to her normally granted actions, while Pazuzu may only take the normal single standard action during his own turn, leaving him far behind Nelly in the action economy race.
Instead, if Pazuzu is lucky and gets to go first, to avoid further humiliation and likely being captured, his best chance is actually to just get the hell abyss out by using his greater teleport as his very first action. That can at least save his ruffled feathers long enough for him to start trying to deal with Nelly in some much less overt manner. But Pazuzu is highly unlikely to realize this without having very extensive and highly detailed knowledge of Nelly's combat abilities. And if he does have such knowledge, he probably would've used his considerable power to ensure he doesn't risk ending up anywhere remotely close to Nelly in the first place, much less in a fight he knows he's bound to lose. Instead, he'd probably try offering Nelly some kind of agreement to help her against common enemies, hoping to (further) corrupt her soul in the process so he may eventually turn her into his powerful servant once her life is at an end.
The next best thing Pazuzu can do if he wins initiative is probably to go for Nelly's magic items and buffs using a targeted greater dispel magic. This action has the same problem of triggering Nelly's Clairsentient Counter or Break the Hourglass, and may very well put Pazuzu within range of Nelly's interrupting attacks since he must be within 60' in order to see and target her. But this option at least has a chance of causing Nelly some minor annoyance and may delay Pazuzu's downfall another round if he can get most of his allies between him and Nelly.
That said, I can certainly see that many single-classed zealot builds can provide a smoother overall progression of their defender capabilities and combat prowess, and that such builds can and often will be superior defenders than AB builds during a few levels before 10th or so.
Huh? There's tons of them! I mean, there are very good reasons why many martial classes, Paizo ones and especially initiators, are called front-loaded and MC-friendly. Here's just a few notable examples (with minimum numbers at 20th assuming a dip at 1st and 10 levels of AB, and no traits or feats):
Warder (and compatible archetypes) 1
+2 Fort and Will
IL 15, Int or Wis
3 readied maneuvers of up to 7th, 6th and 5th level (and one 1st level stance), chosen from 5 disciplines
Defensive focus for bonus Int or Wis-based Combat Reflexes and full-round recovery with 1 round +20' melee reach
Fiend's grip(s) (best control/defender weapon in the game)
Warlord (Privateer) 1
IL 15, Cha
4 readied maneuvers of up to 7th, 6th, 5th and 4th level (and one 1st level stance), chosen from 5 disciplines
Free Improved & Greater Dirty Trick bypassing prereqs (thus also granting access to Dirty Trick Master at bab +11)
Daring Gambit w. Dastardly Gambit for swift action DT luck bonus, success granting class-agnostic party-wide recovery and +Cha mod morale to damage on next attack vs target
Dazzling Gambit for free action demoralize all within 30' on gambit success
Monk (Master of Many Styles) 1
+2 to all saves
Monk unarmed strikes (and monk unarmored Wis AC bonus for very high total AC potential if Dex/Wis based)
Bonus IUS, Stunning Fist and any (Combat, Style) feat bypassing prereqs (so also access to feats in PoW style chain w/o stance in related discipline)
Fuse styles for simultaneous use of 2 style feat stances (allows for huge number of great combos)
Monk (Monk of the Silver Fist) 1
+2 to all saves
IL 15, Wis
3 readied maneuvers of up to 7th, 6th and 5th level (and one 1st level stance), chosen from 3 disciplines
Shielding Fist for "gauntlet bucklers" adding gauntlet enhancement as shield enhancement (compatible with Wis AC bonus for extremely high total AC potential if Dex/Wis based)
Gauntlet Strike including bonus IUS and Weapon Focus (all gauntlet-like) and
One monk bonus feat or Improved Shield Bash, Buckler Bash, or Mithral Current Style, bypassing prereqs
Note that none of the initiators above would gain as high IL or swaps to as high level maneuvers without 10 levels in AB (or another initiator PrC). Especially in the case of the MoSF and other initiating archetypes, as those cannot even access maneuvers above 6th without Advanced Study or other initiator PrC levels. These additional readied maneuvers also increase the defender capabilities of an AB build even if they're only used to enable access to other maneuvers and to fuel clairsentient counter (which can often provide great "nope" protection also of allies by interrupting AoE spells/abilities).
I don't even know what point you're trying to make. This is an Awakened Blade guide, of course you are going to take an initiator dip and levels in Awakened Blade. I am writing this guide with the assumption that the user wants to make an Awakened Blade. The reason I emphasize the recovery method is that the class's maneuver recovery method is very important to an Awakened Blade both because of how it interacts with Hypercognitive Focus and because that recovery method will apply to your 6th, 7th, and 8th level maneuvers, while features like ki pool and deadly strike don't scale. Almost every other feature you can access through a dip will become less important overall as you gain levels, while maneuver recovery method will stay relevant forever.
Only up to a certain point, and that point is nowhere near that which is possible with combos including both class features from dips and maneuvers AFAIK. This often due to the many early level class features which grant bonus feats and other mechanics allowing for more easily adding free action combat maneuvers (at any time) to any melee hit, significantly improving the control/debuff and defender power of melee strikes. On top of potentially also granting numeric bonuses scaling outside of class levels, boosting various values of especially great importance for these kinds of builds (such as the MoSF's shielding fist and the warder's defensive focus reach increase in the examples above). In addition, the fact that maneuvers are generally mutually exclusive in their use means any other option which can provide a great or vital mechanic continuously instead of a maneuver will often provide a fantastic boost to action economy, reliability and combat versatility, making you less tied down to specific maneuvers and often allowing you to get much more out of the maneuvers you use.
Here's an example warder build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21860394&postcount=240) I made which I think illustrates this very well (though the very niche grappling control/defender style of this build is unfortunately one of those rare few less compatible with AB levels AFAIK).
Sure, but this is far beyond the scope of this guide, and more appropriate to a guide focused on those specific styles. AB's class features are powerful enough to be worthwhile in one of these seven-layer-dip builds, but that's more a matter for a dipping guide.
And what I'm saying is that this isn't nearly as general a rule as one might assume, because the AB may often grant much greater total benefits also to control/debuff defender melee style combos than additional levels in other classes may. Again, especially in the case of most martial initiators - and even more in the case of most initiator archetypes - due to their commonly inherently front-loaded nature and early level class feature benefits scaling also outside of class levels (and sometimes scaling significantly better with AB levels, as in the case of archetype maneuvers).
Yeah, the extra feat or two can be nice, but generally I'm going to hold to the first Commandment of Optimization: "Thou shalt not give up caster levels". The AB build you present has manifesting as a complete afterthought and uses the class mainly for the sort of action-economy shenanigans that had my DM ask me to rebuild.
Really? That would have to be one darn serious monster defender zealot... :smalleek:
And as far as I know this isn't even remotely close to the truth, but I'd love to stand corrected! Perhaps you could present a pure zealot build clearly more able to protect a party than say Nelly Nephilim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21556361&postcount=89) is (the build summary in the link doesn't include the IL scaling errata changes, so Nelly's non-zealot maneuvers listed are far weaker than they should be):
This section details Nelly's (practically) always active melee attack hit effects and the rather complex chains of actions these effects may grant, plus her typical pre-combat preparations and her typical tactics during combat.
Basic Melee Combos
A large portion of Nelly's build options are geared towards improving her melee attacks, regardless of the action taken which included the melee attack (strike, combat maneuver, AoO, charge, etc) or when she took it (during her own turn or outside of it), and - as far as possible - also regardless of the target's passive melee defenses (AC and CMD values, size, immunities etc). These options make up combinations which primarily provide free action demoralization and combat maneuvers which may stack increasingly severe penalties on the target, and grant Nelly additional control options and additional attacks against the target in the form of AoOs, potentially forming very long chains of actions with devastating total effects.
In the hopes of making this a bit easier to grasp, I've divided the main components of mentioned chains into three distinct combos.
Thunderbull Gauntlet Bashing Combo
This combo forms the basis of Nelly's action chains and requires plenty of build resources. Although virtually all components are likely to provide benefits (not necessarily listed below) during all levels, the combo isn't fully online until Nelly reaches 11th level when her zealot IL and Awakened Blade levels allow her to pick Stance of the Thunderbrand:
Level
Class
Key Components
Key Mechanics
Resulting Combo
1
Monk 1
Gauntlet strike, shielding fist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/dreamscarred-press---monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-silver-fist-monk-archetype), Improved Shield Bash
Gauntlet strike and shielding fist makes (any) gauntlets count as bucklers in addition to their other effects/properties. Improved Shield Bash is a prerequisite for Shield Slam.
Nelly's (spiked) gauntlets are also treated as bucklers and she can make shield bashes without losing the shield bonus (but she must still use a light or heavy shield to bash).
3
Warder 1
Combat Reflexes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder) based on Wis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/ordained-defender-warder-archetype), fiend’s grip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder/warder-archetypes/fiendbound-marauder-warder-archetype)
Additional AoOs equal to Wis mod each round, and the ability to manifest fiend's grips which are treated as spiked gauntlets and natural attacks.
Nelly can make additional AoOs and the radius of the area she threatens with her fiend’s grips/gauntlets increases with a distance equal to her natural reach.
4
Warlord 1
Two-Weapon Fighting
The second feat in the classic shield fighting chain and also prerequisite for Shield Slam.
-
11
Awakened Blade 3
Buckler Bash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Buckler-Bash-Combat-), Shield Slam (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shield-slam-combat---final), Stance of the Thunderbrand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/piercing-thunder-maneuvers#TOC-Stance-of-the-Thunderbrand)
Buckler Bash allows making shield bashes with a buckler, Shield Slam grants a free action bull rush on a shield bash hit, and the stance means any movement in threatened area provokes an AoO.
Nelly can make a bull rush attempt as a free action on any hit with her fiend’s grip, and the movement caused by her bull rush provokes an AoO from her.
At 20th level, Nelly can effectively make up to 7 bull rushes, provoking and triggered by 6 AoOs (or 17 bull rushes and 16 AoOs with Oath of Eternity), all against a target she hits once with any kind of melee attack. Provided she keeps hitting and successfully bull rushing the target, of course.
Soulless Seraph of Sarenrae Combo
In order to demoralize a large majority of her opponents as far into uselessness as possible, Nelly uses a fairly standard combination of demoralization related feats, their mechanics enabled by a somewhat non-standard trait for an aasimar who "falls" from a Good alignment. This standard combo is in Nelly's case also enhanced with an item and some options from the Privateer class template:
Level
Class
Key Components
Key Mechanics
Resulting Combo
3
Warder 1
Black Seraph's Glare, fiend's grip
The Black Seraph stance is a prerequisite for the Black Seraph Style feat and gives a free demoralize attempt vs hit enemy, and a fiend's grip is a slashing weapon.
Nelly can demoralize enemies she hits as a free action, and uses a slashing weapon (condition for gaining the benefits of the Blade of Mercy trait, see below).
4
Warlord 1
Daring gambit, dazzling gambit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/martial-class-templates/privateer-template)
Grants a warlord gambit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord#TOC-Warlord-s-Gambit-Ex-), and a free demoralize attempt vs enemies within 30' when successfully performing a warlord gambit.
Nelly can demoralize all enemies within 30' as a free action when she successfully performs her warlord gambit.
8
Zealot 4
Enforcer
Grants free demoralize attempt vs enemy damaged by nonlethal damage.
Nelly can demoralize enemies she damages with nonlethal damage as a free action, without having to be in the Black Seraph's Glare stance.
9
Awakened Blade 1
Additional Traits (Blade of Mercy), Black Seraph Style
Blade of Mercy allows dealing nonlethal damage with slashing weapons w/o penalties. Black Seraph Style grants a scaling bonus to saves and AC vs creatures suffering from fear conditions.
Nelly can use Enforcer with her fiend's grips w/o penalties for dealing nonlethal damage, and gains a scaling profane bonus to defenses against attacks/abilities of scared opponents.
10
Awakened Blade 2
Intimidating Prowess
Adds Str mod in addition to Cha mod to Intimidate skill checks.
Nelly gains a bonus to Intimidate equal to her Str mod, ensuring her demoralization attempts always succeeds against non-immune creatures.
13
Awakened Blade 5
Fiendskin
At least two damnation feats are required to gain the key benefit of Soulless Gaze (see below).
-
15
Awakened Blade 7
Black Seraph's Malevolence, Black Seraph Annihilation
Creatures within 30' lose immunity to fear effects (even if immune to mind-affecting).
Nelly's demoralization attempts ignores the immunities of targets within 30' of her.
19
Zealot 5
Soulless Gaze, Menacing Mask*
When demoralizing a target already demoralized, its fear condition may become more severe rather than have its duration extended. The Menacing Mask grants a +10 competence bonus to Intimidate.
Whenever Nelly demoralizes an opponent she has already demoralized, the fear condition increases (up to panicked/cowering from 3 successful attempts), and her Intimidate checks always succeeds.
*Approximate level when the item is gained.
In short, Nelly is one seriously scary cameraph (= camel-seraph, meaning an angel-blooded aasimar of gamla descent). Again, please note that Soulless Gaze was deliberately delayed until the next to final level, being an extremely powerful feat which would be much more likely to feel/be OP if gained earlier, especially by a competent melee combatant having plenty of highly synergizing mechanics (like Nelly).
Dirty Opportunism Combo
To really ramp up the power of her AoOs and her ability to chain multiple AoOs from a single trigger, Nelly's final distinctive melee combo consists of a warlord's gambit, dirty trick feats, Seize the Opportunity and a few boosting items (the most significant listed below). This dirty trick combo gives Nelly a good chance to debuff her enemies with sure-fire, long-lasting and serious penalties from 4th level and onward, and its Dirty Trick Master "capstone" (deliberately delayed until the final level), grants Nelly the ability to nauseate or daze an enemy, completely removing it from combat using no more than two AoOs (naturally chained through her Thunderbull Gauntlet Bashing combo detailed above).
Level
Class
Key Components
Key Mechanics
Resulting Combo
4
Warlord 1
Dastardly gambit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord#TOC-Warlord-s-Gambit-Ex-), salt in the wound (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/martial-class-templates/privateer-template) (Improved and Greater Dirty Trick)
Dastardly gambit grants Cha mod luck bonus to dirty trick attempt, and the two feats grants the usual combat maneuver feat benefits, extends the duration and changes the required action to remove a condition imposed by dirty trick from move to standard.
Nelly can make a dirty trick gambit, has a +4 to dirty trick CMB and can make dirty tricks without provoking. A condition applied by her dirty trick typically lasts longer than normal and the target must spend a standard action to remove it.
5
Zealot 1
Seize the Opportunity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats)
Allows making an attack action or standard action combat maneuver in place of the normal attack as an AoO.
Nelly can make a dirty trick attempt instead of a normal melee attack when making an AoO.
12*
Awakened Blade 4
Dueling (PSFG (http://archivesofnethys.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dueling%20(PSFG) )/psionic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/psionic-weapons#TOC-Dueling)) Amulet of Mighty Fists
Provides a luck bonus equal to twice the enhancement bonus to dirty trick performed with the weapon (in addition to the enhancement bonus).
Nelly gains up to a +14 luck bonus to her dirty trick attempts made with her fiend's grips (meaning virtually all her dirty trick attempts).
20
Zealot 6
Dirty Trick Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-trick-master-combat)
When successfully making a dirty trick against a target already suffering from a condition from previous dirty trick, the existing condition can be worsened in place of adding a different normal condition.
When Nelly succeeds on a dirty trick attempt against an enemy dazzled or sickened from a previous dirty trick, she can make the enemy dazed or nauseated so the enemy can not remove the condition.
*Approximate level when the item is gained.
In short, since two dirty trick AoOs can nauseate or daze an enemy for several rounds, Nelly can remove up to at least 3 enemies from combat each round with her 6 AoOs (or up to at least 8 enemies during a round when she uses Oath of Eternity). Besides the silly power of Dirty Trick Master, I personally think the most noteworthy aspect of this combo is how darn cheap it comes, primarily because of the amazing prereq bypassing freebies granted by the Privateer warlord dip. Apparently Nelly's a salty dame, and the soundtrack of her combat style (https://youtu.be/whQQpwwvSh4), as well as her fall from grace (https://youtu.be/gEPmA3USJdI?t=90), was obviously written by her old pirate crew of ancient rocker grognards from "down under"... :smalltongue:
Other Components
The "Big 3" combos above are also supported and complemented by several additional components, most notably:
Gargantuan Size and 55' Reach granted by her gamla heritage (gained at birth), (minor) metamorphosis (gained at 12th and 17th level), fiend's grip (at 4th), protection mission (at 8th), Stance of the Thunderbrand (at 11th) and wand of long arm (plus Use Magic Device ranks, at approx. 14th). These components multiply the value of all her other options which improve her melee attacks and vastly increase her capabilities as a defender, and grant large bonuses to CMB and allow her to ignore nearly all size difference caps on combat maneuvers.
Grab ability of the fiend's grip (gained at 4th), providing Nelly with a free grapple attempt on each melee hit.
Constrict ability of the Anaconda's Coils Belt (gained at approx. 13th), enabling Nelly to deal constrict damage - and therefore also to make additional free demoralize attempts - with each successful grapple attempt.
Fiend's Grips treated as both spiked gauntlets and natural attacks, allowing Nelly to simultaneously gain any magic abilities of her gauntlets as well as other items or spells (such as an Amulet of Mighty Fists or a strong jaw spell), granting her increased versatility and a considerable boost to wealth in especially higher levels.
Furious (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/furious), Leveraging (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/leveraging) and Psychic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/psionic-weapons#TOC-Psychic) Weapon and various minor items (the first gained at approx. 12th), providing very substantial bonuses (up to +42(!) to reposition and trip) for a relatively low cost to several of Nelly's CMB checks.
A bunch of maneuvers boosting combat maneuvers and/or granting multiple attacks.
Combined Result
When all the above is in place at 20th, a single successful melee attack, granted by any action at any time, can provide for example the following chain of actions (average damage, indentation means the listed action is dependent on the last previous action(s) with less indentation being successful):
1 Free - grapple attempt granted by grab (usually only made during Nelly's own turn in order to not prevent her from releasing the grapple and making further AoOs): target moved to adjacent to Nelly and both are grappled
2 None - constrict granted by grapple and Anaconda’s Coils Belt: 44 damage
3 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer and constrict damage: target is shaken and Nelly gains +5 profane to AC and saves vs the target's attacks/abilities
4 Free - Nelly ends grapple: target and Nelly are no longer grappled
5 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer and damage of initial attack (if any): target is sickened for 1 round (Cruel Weapon) and frightened
6 Free - bull rush attempt granted by Buckler Bash and Shield Slam: moving target at least 5' after:
7 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: target dazzled
8 Free - grapple attempt as 1 above
9 None - constrict as 2 above
10 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer and constrict damage: target is panicked, dropping anything it holds
11 Free - Nelly ends grapple as 4 above
12 Free - lock attempt granted by Lesson VI: Supremacy (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jWw7bVMARxrXfRuOW20NlRqXEnS_XGLPT6LHTbz2qME/edit#heading=h.xx2gm1b9axxq): target is locked (must make Reflex save vs DC 38 to move)
13 Free - bull rush as 6 above
14 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: target dazed
15 Free - grapple attempt as 1 above
16 None - constrict as 2 above
17 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer and constrict damage: target is panicked for additional rounds
18 Free - Nelly ends grapple as 4 above
19 Free - bull rush as 6 above
(And so on, up to a total of 4 additional AoOs, each dealing 65 damage or imposing additional dirty trick conditions, and triggering subsequent grabs, bull rushes and demoralization attempts, increasing the number of rounds the target is panicked)
20 Automatic - target is pushed back the total distance (typically more than 15') caused by successful bull rushes (6, 13 and 19 above)
So in total, the target takes at least 132 damage and is locked, sickened for 1 round, dazed for typically more than 2 rounds, panicked (or cowering) for typically at the very least 6 rounds, and bull rushed at least 15' back and potentially knocked prone. This is in addition to any damage dealt and any other effects caused by the initial hit triggering the combo.
Basic Tactics
Before Combat
Nelly adopts Lesson VI: Supremacy (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jWw7bVMARxrXfRuOW20NlRqXEnS_XGLPT6LHTbz2qME/edit#heading=h.xx2gm1b9axxq) with Stance of Thunderbrand and manifests banshee’s hearing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_DKnAARY4I9Q16jCacwm2X-KVmnKObs6J_FBIgZrOc8/edit) and heartbinding (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_DKnAARY4I9Q16jCacwm2X-KVmnKObs6J_FBIgZrOc8/edit) at the start of each day (both powers having a 12 hours duration), preferably targeting another Str based frontline combatant in her collective with heartbinding so Nelly and the target can share morale bonuses throughout the day. Yes, that means an ally of Nelly gains all the bonuses of her rage without any of the penalties; +6 to Str and Con, and +2 to Will saves.
When Nelly suspects she's likely to run into enemies within minutes, she starts cycling Time Skitter, manifests metamorphosis (11 min. duration, effects detailed in build summary) using her cognizance crystals before using her own PP reserve, and uses her wands of contingent action (5 min.), fly (6 min.), long arm (5 min.), and strong jaw (7 min.). At this high level, Nelly typically sets the contingent action to enter the Black Seraph Style stance, to be triggered when she rolls initiative, but if she believes she won't face any enemies immune to fear or mind-affecting, she may instead use the granted action to make an additional strike in the first round. These effects are included in the build summary. In addition, if Nelly believes the upcoming battle will be very challenging, she can also manifest metamorphosis on one or more of her allies through the Shared Power feat, and activate her Boots of the Battle Herald, sharing also those morale bonuses via heartbinding (these effects are not included in the build summary).
During Combat
Coming soonTM!
Credit to exelsisxax for general hole-poking!
In order to show Nelly's 20th level combat mechanics against truly dangerous opponents and hopefully provide at least a glimpse of her actual in-game combat effectiveness, without me having to write the equivalent of a PhD thesis on the subject, I'm going to describe an opening round in a somewhat simplified fight against Pazuzu (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/demon-lords/demon-lord-pazuzu) (the CR 30 demon lord). Since Nelly is rather heavily optimized to be effective in a primary defender/controller (secondary leader) combat role, she should be capable of beating the opposition on her own while also protecting and supporting a few useless squishy allies, even if Pazuzu has brought along say three balor lords (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/balor/balor-lord) (CR 25 each, let's call them "Leftbal", "Midbal" and "Rightbal"). For simplicity's sake, I've assumed that Nelly and her useless allies encounter these monsters in some dark featureless place with plenty of room to move, starting about 60' from the enemies (when a combatant is first able to see and target an opponent):
http://res.cloudinary.com/upho/image/upload/q_100/v1484447431/Nelly_vs_Pazuzu_y0ptnj.png
LB = Leftbal, MB = Midbal, RB = Rightbal
P = Pazuzu (flying 20' above ground)
N = Nelly (flying 20' above ground)
A = Nelly's PC allies
I've also assumed that no combatant is surprised and all have some rudimentary knowledge of the opposition's strength gleaned from scouting, Knowledge skill checks, potential previous run-ins etc. (For Nelly, this would include say approximate minimum CR and maybe the most obvious creature/class type, meaning something along the lines of "one unique(ly) badass demon lord of a CR above 28, and three martially oriented balor-ish demons, each of a CR above 24".)
The following describes the combatants' likely actions and their effects, including average damage (adjusted for hit chance but not including crit damage, rounded to closest integer) and average/typical chances and results of other effects. As before, indentation means the listed action is dependent on the last previous action(s) with less indentation being successful. Note also that outside of the rules specifically for AoOs, there are AFAIK no general rules detailing the order in which to resolve multiple free and potentially interrupting actions triggered by one single event and/or its immediate effects, so in the cases when the rules are silent I've assumed the creature performing the actions in question decides the order. Naturally, I've tried to adhere strictly to RAW.
1 Initiative roll
Nelly has the highest initiative bonus so she is likely to act first.
2 Automatic by Nelly
Nelly's contingent action is triggered, and she enters Black Seraph Style stance.
3 Standard by Nelly
Nelly initiates Lord of the Pridelands: Nelly and her allies gain +10 morale to hit, damage, AC, and saves for 1 round (assuming her allies are 3 PCs and at least one of them has a familiar/AC/eidolon or similar).
4 Free by Nelly
Nelly uses Precognitive Defenses by expending her psionic focus to initiate Oath of Eternity: for 1 round, Nelly's AoOs deals +3d6 damage and curses target for 1 round, and she can make a total of 16 AoOs.
5 Move by Nelly
Nelly flies off to pick a fight, moving 55' straight north to within 10' of Pazuzu and 30' of the balor lords (of course taking the opportunity to call the demon lord "A chicken little chicken!" and cackle mockingly for emphasis). Nelly would have automatically succeeded on the save vs Pazuzu's Aura of Locusts (Fortitude +44 vs DC 43), but she does not need make the throw as Pazuzu is pushed back at least 20', after he takes 179 damage (mostly nonlethal) and becomes blinded for at least 2 rounds, cowering for 3 rounds, cursed and sickened for 1 round and dazed for 10 rounds:
5.1 Free - Precognitive Defenses by Nelly expending her Deep Focus, triggered by Nelly being exposed to Pazuzu's Aura of Locusts, allowing her to initiate Break the Hourglass
5.2 Move granted by Break the Hourglass - in this situation, Nelly unfortunately can't use this move for anything more constructive than going "Nye, nye, nye, nye, nye!" at Pazuzu and sticking out her tongue at him
5.3 Standard granted by Break the Hourglass - Hammer of the Immortal vs Pazuzu: 95% hit chance (+57 vs AC 48) for 98 damage, -4 AC and CMD, and Nelly and her allies gain +2 morale to attack for 2 rounds
5.4 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer: Pazuzu shaken for 3 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 57) and Nelly gains +5 profane to AC and saves vs his attacks
5.5 Swift - Dastardly Gambit: Nelly gains +6 luck to dirty trick (doesn't stack with the +14 luck already granted by Nelly's Dueling (PFSG) Amulet of Mighty Fists)
5.6 Free - dirty trick attempt granted by Hammer of the Immortal: 90% chance of Pazuzu being blinded for at least 2 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 88); Nelly recovers Hammer of the Immortal, allies recover 1 maneuver (and all gain +6 morale to damage which doesn't stack with the +10 already granted by Lord of the Pridelands)
5.7 Free - Hypercognitive Focus granted by Nelly recovering a maneuver: Nelly regains her Deep Focus
5.8 Free - Intimidate attempt vs enemies within 30' granted by Dazzling Gambit: Pazuzu frightened for 3 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 57), and the balor lords are shaken for 6 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 43), and Nelly gains +5 profane to AC and saves vs their attacks as well
5.9 Free - grapple attempt granted by grab: 0% success chance since Pazuzu is protected by constant freedom of movement (Though not listed, Nelly might make additional free grapple attempts on her following hits (5.11, 5.14 and 5.16 below) without realizing the futility of it.)
5.10 Free - bull rush attempt granted by Buckler Bash and Shield Slam: 99% success chance (bull rush CMB +74 best of two rolls vs CMD 77), moving Pazuzu at least 5' after:
5.11 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - 95% hit chance for 81 damage and Pazuzu is cursed and sickened for 1 round
5.12 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer: Pazuzu panicked for 3 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 57), dropping the Scepter Of Shibaxet
5.13 Free - bull rush as 5.10 above
5.14 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: Pazuzu dazzled for 5 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 77)
5.15 Free - bull rush attempt as 5.10 above
5.16 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: Pazuzu dazed for 10 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 77)
5.17 Free - bull rush attempt as 5.10 above
5.18 Automatic - Pazuzu is pushed back the total distance (typically at least 20') caused by successful bull rushes (5.10, 5.13, 5.15 and 5.17 above)
6 Standard by Leftbal
In their current positions, none of the balor lords are close enough to Nelly's allies to be able to see and target them, so the demons are therefore likely to decide to first concentrate on the most immediate threat, meaning Nelly. Especially since that threat just made their boss soil his feathers in fear before hitting him over the head so hard even the balors can see the obligatory imaginary little chattering quasits flying in circles around their leader, cartoon style. So unless Leftbal decides to simply flee instead of attacking (unlikely), it must try to either charge Nelly, move south towards where it probably has heard Nelly's allies, and/or cast a spell. Going by the tactics section in the bestiary entry for balor lords, Leftbal is most likely to try using a damaging SLA, like firestorm, targeting the whole space Nelly occupies. And if Leftbal does so, all three balor lords are most likely doomed, each one taking 98 damage (mostly nonlethal), being frightened for 12 rounds, dazed for 16 rounds and pushed back up to at least 30', while Leftbal's firestorm never occurs since Nelly's immediate response to the threat interrupts the balor's action to use the SLA:
6.1 Immediate - Clairsentient Counter by Nelly expending her Deep Focus and Hunting Party, triggered by Nelly potentially being affected by Leftbal's firestorm
6.2 Standard granted by Clairsentient Counter - Hammer of the Immortal vs Leftbal: 95% hit chance (+57 vs AC 33) for 98 damage, -4 AC and CMD, and Leftbal is sickened for 1 round (and Nelly and her allies gain +2 morale to attack for 2 rounds)
6.3 Free - demoralize attempt granted by Enforcer: Leftbal is frightened for 6 rounds (Intimidate +59 vs DC 43)
6.4 Free - dirty trick attempt granted by Hammer of the Immortal: Leftbal is dazzled for 8 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 62)
6.5 Free - bull rush attempt granted by Buckler Bash and Shield Slam: 99% success chance (bull rush CMB +74 best of two rolls vs CMD 62), moving Leftbal up to at least 15' after:
6.6 AoO granted by Stance of the Thunderbrand - dirty trick granted by Seize the Opportunity: Leftbal is cursed for 1 round and dazed for 16 rounds (dirty trick CMB +85 vs CMD 62)
6.7 Free - bull rush as 6.5 above
6.8 Automatic - Leftbal is pushed back the total distance (typically up to at least 30') caused by successful bull rushes (6.5 and 6.7 above)
6.9 None - Hammer of the Immortal vs Midbal: as 6.2 - 6.8 above but against Midbal
6.10 None - Hammer of the Immortal vs Rightbal: as 6.2 - 6.8 above but against Rightbal
Resources Spent When the first round ends, Nelly has expended Hunting Party and all her readied zealot/awakened blade maneuvers except Temporal Body Adjustment, Thrashing Dragon Twist and Time Skitter, plus her psionic focus and Deep Focus. She has also used her Hypercognitive Focus for the round and made 6 AoOs (10 additional AoOs possible before the start of her next turn).
Clearly, Pazuzu and his balor lords lost this fight almost before it started. As they end up dazed and cowering or frightened for several rounds, Nelly and her allies have plenty of time to take care of the beaten demons in the way they prefer before Pazuzu is able to threaten anyone with so much as bad language.
Due to Pazuzu's +13 to Initiative and the inherently fluky nature of opposed d20 rolls, there's a considerable risk Pazuzu wins the initiative and may act before Nelly. But even if he can do so, he still doesn't stand much of chance against her in a straight up fight like this. None of his SLAs or (Su) abilities has a DC high enough to affect Nelly while she's affected by Lord of the Pridelands, and even should she not be, none of his SLAs will be effective and none of his (Su) abilities will have more than a 40% chance to succeed if Nelly makes a saving throw (the most powerful ones being avoided with a successful Fortitude or Will save vs DC 43). But most importantly, any effect he tries to expose Nelly to can be countered by her Clairsentient Counter or Break the Hourglass, meaning Pazuzu grants Nelly up to a standard and a move action to interrupt his triggering standard action each time he uses any such offensive SLA or (Su) ability. On top of that, Nelly's Precognitive Defenses, Deep Focus and Hypercognitive Focus ensures she may typically make two such interrupting counters per round at any time, in addition to her normally granted actions, while Pazuzu may only take the normal single standard action during his own turn, leaving him far behind Nelly in the action economy race.
Instead, if Pazuzu is lucky and gets to go first, to avoid further humiliation and likely being captured, his best chance is actually to just get the hell abyss out by using his greater teleport as his very first action. That can at least save his ruffled feathers long enough for him to start trying to deal with Nelly in some much less overt manner. But Pazuzu is highly unlikely to realize this without having very extensive and highly detailed knowledge of Nelly's combat abilities. And if he does have such knowledge, he probably would've used his considerable power to ensure he doesn't risk ending up anywhere remotely close to Nelly in the first place, much less in a fight he knows he's bound to lose. Instead, he'd probably try offering Nelly some kind of agreement to help her against common enemies, hoping to (further) corrupt her soul in the process so he may eventually turn her into his powerful servant once her life is at an end.
The next best thing Pazuzu can do if he wins initiative is probably to go for Nelly's magic items and buffs using a targeted greater dispel magic. This action has the same problem of triggering Nelly's Clairsentient Counter or Break the Hourglass, and may very well put Pazuzu within range of Nelly's interrupting attacks since he must be within 60' in order to see and target her. But this option at least has a chance of causing Nelly some minor annoyance and may delay Pazuzu's downfall another round if he can get most of his allies between him and Nelly.
That said, I can certainly see that many single-classed zealot builds can provide a smoother overall progression of their defender capabilities and combat prowess, and that such builds can and often will be superior defenders than AB builds during a few levels before 10th or so.
No, I'm not going to interact with this monstosity of an optimized build. I know it probably wasn't what you intended, but this came off to me as asking me to sink hours of work into building a character that I'd likely never play before continuing this discussion. Cool, it's a powerful build, but it's also very far from what most people are going to be picturing when they come to this guide. (Incidentally, how are you qualifying as a 1st level Wilder? You would only have one power known.)
Sunforger42
2018-10-18, 10:52 PM
Also, you seem to not like the Stalker's recovery mechanic. The archetype, Spirit Stalker, I think, has a claim mechanic that is quite good.
Also, you seem to not like the Stalker's recovery mechanic. The archetype, Spirit Stalker, I think, has a claim mechanic that is quite good.
Yes, claim is a nice recovery mechanic, although it's shared by a number of classes. I gave the stalker a lower score because full-round recovery isn't great.
digiman619
2018-10-19, 02:37 AM
I know that a Soulknife isn't good for the manifesting side, but how is a War Soul for the initiating half? Say, a War Soul 4/Psion 1/AB 10?
I know that a Soulknife isn't good for the manifesting side, but how is a War Soul for the initiating half? Say, a War Soul 4/Psion 1/AB 10?
Their base maneuver recovery is quite bad, needing you to expend focus to get more than one back. That's probably the best entry, because you need at least 3 levels to get progression of your mind blade, and at that point, why not grab Martial Blade Recovery. Martial Blade Recovery helps with the recovery, but it's still only one at a time, which cuts down on your countering game. You also have a split key stat, which means that you'll lose a lot of PP and have much lower saves. Your manifesting will be pretty weak, I'd say that if you're in a game playing with the high-psionics variant, you'll be better off straight War Soul at most levels. The capstone's good enough to change that, but Advanced Study for Beat the Clock and Sleeping Goddess Style cover most of the rest of the class for you. Even if you aren't using the high-psionics variant, it's going to take a while for the Awakened Blade to pull ahead.
I would recommend Living Legend 3/Psion 1/(Int-based initiator 1)/AB 10 instead, because then you're all Int-based, can get better recovery, and you can take the Guardian role for extra reach and a nice shield bonus. If you use Practiced Initiator, you'll still have high-level maneuvers.
digiman619
2018-10-19, 03:32 AM
Their base maneuver recovery is quite bad, needing you to expend focus to get more than one back. That's probably the best entry, because you need at least 3 levels to get progression of your mind blade, and at that point, why not grab Martial Blade Recovery. Martial Blade Recovery helps with the recovery, but it's still only one at a time, which cuts down on your countering game. You also have a split key stat, which means that you'll lose a lot of PP and have much lower saves. Your manifesting will be pretty weak, I'd say that if you're in a game playing with the high-psionics variant, you'll be better off straight War Soul at most levels. The capstone's good enough to change that, but Advanced Study for Beat the Clock and Sleeping Goddess Style cover most of the rest of the class for you. Even if you aren't using the high-psionics variant, it's going to take a while for the Awakened Blade to pull ahead.
I would recommend Living Legend 3/Psion 1/(Int-based initiator 1)/AB 10 instead, because then you're all Int-based, can get better recovery, and you can take the Guardian role for extra reach and a nice shield bonus. If you use Practiced Initiator, you'll still have high-level maneuvers.
Didn't you read the errata? (http://dreamscarred.com/path-war-errata/) It's been out for like a year now. It fixed the War Soul's recovery by making it regain focus rather than expending it.
Didn't you read the errata? (http://dreamscarred.com/path-war-errata/) It's been out for like a year now. It fixed the War Soul's recovery by making it regain focus rather than expending it.
I forgot to check that. Still, that just means that Hypercognitive Focus only works with it if you've expended both foci. It's better, but not amazingly so. A dip is still likely to work better.
I believe the changes/additions to the "Entry" section intro are more than sufficient to silence my nit-picking! Very reasonable and solid advice with much less risk of being misunderstood now, I think. I especially liked the emphasis you put on the need for extra careful consideration when choosing your earlier levels if not going for the "traditional" manifester 4/initiator 1 entry. So very true also IME.
Sure, but this is far beyond the scope of this guide, and more appropriate to a guide focused on those specific styles. AB's class features are powerful enough to be worthwhile in one of these seven-layer-dip builds, but that's more a matter for a dipping guide.Well, I fully agree with you when it comes more complex niche builds such as the example builds I referred to, and likely also when it comes to most conceptually similar builds, even though I believe most are of course considerably less niche and thankfully not of the complex seven-layered-cheese kind.
My overall point was more that because there are practical limitations to what this kind of guide can and should focus on, I think an AB guide - probably more than a guide to any other PrC in the game - needs to state that focus and that it excludes many potentially great AB build types. Meaning I believe the reader should be made aware the AB stands out also in terms of the unusually wide variety of character concepts and mechanical focuses it may enable or greatly enhance, and that many related build types are beyond the scope of the guide for practical reasons, not because those build types cannot be made just as great as those covered in more detail. Anyhow, I think the "Entry" intro sorta conveys the geist of this well enough now.
Yeah, the extra feat or two can be nice, but generally I'm going to hold to the first Commandment of Optimization: "Thou shalt not give up caster levels".I don't see how that old 3.5 commandment is particularly valid when it comes to "ML vs PoW initiator" in PF. It's certainly not even remotely close to as much of a universal truth as it was for "CL/ML vs everything else" in 3.5.
(In some regards I believe it's actually quite a bit less valid even when it comes to "CL vs Paizo martial" in a PF game limited to 1PP options, as also certain Paizo martials have far greater potential versatility and reliability, to the point they can even be made surprisingly effective in combat roles their 3.5 counterparts had absolutely no chance of filling. And that's on top of me finding the definition and primary goal of practical optimization those commandments are based on to be seriously lacking, regardless of system.)
The AB build you present has manifesting as a complete afterthought /snip/(Note that this topic naturally has somewhat limited relevance, since Nelly's a cheese-freak outlier build marked with a big red warning sticker in Castilonium's zealot guide, and was mostly designed to display possible zealot/AB related control/defender melee combos and their combat potential, and of course not intended to be played in a real game. At least not in any reasonably normal game and especially not at the highest levels.) Actually, at least banshee’s hearing and especially (minor) metamorphosis are crucial, the latter even paid for with Expanded Knowledge and also enhanced with Improved Metamorphosis, and then also turned into a powerful potential ally buff via Shared Power and the zealot's collective. And heartbinding is carefully chosen specifically to support a frontline ally through it's great synergy with boosted rage morale bonuses.
and uses the class mainly for the sort of action-economy shenanigans that had my DM ask me to rebuild.Heh, I think I sympathize with your GM... And yes, Nelly was very much built to get the most out of the AB's powerful unique features together with her demoralization and AoO combat maneuver shenanigans and martial maneuvers.
No, I'm not going to interact with this monstosity of an optimized build. I know it probably wasn't what you intended, but this came off to me as asking me to sink hours of work into building a character that I'd likely never play before continuing this discussion. Cool, it's a powerful build, but it's also very far from what most people are going to be picturing when they come to this guide.Oh, you're right that was absolutely not what I intended! I apologize for my sloppy writing, I mostly just couldn't resist being tongue-in-cheek because of what you said about single-classed zealots... :smallredface: But reading my post, I now see I made that very far from obvious. I'm sorry. :smallfrown:
And please don't try to interact with the monstrosity, she's a scary fanatic who hits people! :smalleek: (Or at least please don't interact by building something just to achieve a similar level of silliness!)
(Incidentally, how are you qualifying as a 1st level Wilder? You would only have one power known.)Extra Power Known at 3rd, retrained at 10th when the missing power is instead gained through the wilder progression.
Elricaltovilla
2018-10-19, 08:43 AM
Also, you seem to not like the Stalker's recovery mechanic. The archetype, Spirit Stalker, I think, has a claim mechanic that is quite good.
Yes, claim is a nice recovery mechanic, although it's shared by a number of classes. I gave the stalker a lower score because full-round recovery isn't great.
It's worth noting that the Soul Hunter Stalker (the archetype in question) has a different claim ability from the harbinger (the other class with a claim mechanic).
The differences are subtle, but significant. Soul Hunters can't claim without causing damage. Their claim doesn't have a duration, but can be withdrawn at any time. They don't recover a maneuver when making a claim, and have to get the kill in order to recover maneuvers. Lastly they can use their claim to track their target over long distances.
So it may be worth covering, at least in a cursory manner.
Castilonium
2018-10-19, 09:07 AM
What do you think of Prestigious Spellcaster (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/prestigious-spellcaster/)? It might work due to magic/psionics transparency. It'd be expensive, but spending 3 feats would give you 2 more real manifester levels.
I believe the changes/additions to the "Entry" section intro are more than sufficient to silence my nit-picking! Very reasonable and solid advice with much less risk of being misunderstood now, I think. I especially liked the emphasis you put on the need for extra careful consideration when choosing your earlier levels if not going for the "traditional" manifester 4/initiator 1 entry. So very true also IME.
Thanks, I'm glad you like it.
Well, I fully agree with you when it comes more complex niche builds such as the example builds I referred to, and likely also when it comes to most conceptually similar builds, even though I believe most are of course considerably less niche and thankfully not of the complex seven-layered-cheese kind.
My overall point was more that because there are practical limitations to what this kind of guide can and should focus on, I think an AB guide - probably more than a guide to any other PrC in the game - needs to state that focus and that it excludes many potentially great AB build types. Meaning I believe the reader should be made aware the AB stands out also in terms of the unusually wide variety of character concepts and mechanical focuses it may enable or greatly enhance, and that many related build types are beyond the scope of the guide for practical reasons, not because those build types cannot be made just as great as those covered in more detail. Anyhow, I think the "Entry" intro sorta conveys the geist of this well enough now.
Seven layer dip (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven-layer_dip) was a joke. While I agree that there's a lot that can be done with the Awakened Blade, I feel there's a distinction to be made between builds that are someone wanting to play an Awakened Blade and builds which involve Awakened Blade to fill a hole in progression.
I don't see how that old 3.5 commandment is particularly valid when it comes to "ML vs PoW initiator" in PF. It's certainly not even remotely close to as much of a universal truth as it was for "CL/ML vs everything else" in 3.5.
(In some regards I believe it's actually quite a bit less valid even when it comes to "CL vs Paizo martial" in a PF game limited to 1PP options, as also certain Paizo martials have far greater potential versatility and reliability, to the point they can even be made surprisingly effective in combat roles their 3.5 counterparts had absolutely no chance of filling. And that's on top of me finding the definition and primary goal of practical optimization those commandments are based on to be seriously lacking, regardless of system.)
You're only considering combat. My last AB used augmented Genesis to set up a planar base that he could move armies through, could transport the whole party, had decent divination abilities, could disguise the whole party, and had Psychic Reformation for anything he couldn't do already. Pathfinder martials can fill more roles, but there are still many roles, especially non-combat ones where only a caster can do it, or which casters can fill far more easily. The level at which you get Psychoport or Remote Viewing is important, because these do what they do so much better than the previous options.
(Note that this topic naturally has somewhat limited relevance, since Nelly's a cheese-freak outlier build marked with a big red warning sticker in Castilonium's zealot guide, and was mostly designed to display possible zealot/AB related control/defender melee combos and their combat potential, and of course not intended to be played in a real game. At least not in any reasonably normal game and especially not at the highest levels.) Actually, at least banshee’s hearing and especially (minor) metamorphosis are crucial, the latter even paid for with Expanded Knowledge and also enhanced with Improved Metamorphosis, and then also turned into a powerful potential ally buff via Shared Power and the zealot's collective. And heartbinding is carefully chosen specifically to support a frontline ally through it's great synergy with boosted rage morale bonuses.
What I meant by that is that you make no attempt to fill the party role of a caster or manifester. Your manifesting is significantly worse than a Gifted Blade's, and they have the worst manifesting in the game.
Heh, I think I sympathize with your GM... And yes, Nelly was very much built to get the most out of the AB's powerful unique features together with her demoralization and AoO combat maneuver shenanigans and martial maneuvers.
Sure, you can do that, but you shouldn't unless you're in a very high-op game, because you can end up taking as many actions as the rest of the party combined.
Oh, you're right that was absolutely not what I intended! I apologize for my sloppy writing, I mostly just couldn't resist being tongue-in-cheek because of what you said about single-classed zealots... :smallredface: But reading my post, I now see I made that very far from obvious. I'm sorry. :smallfrown:
And please don't try to interact with the monstrosity, she's a scary fanatic who hits people! :smalleek: (Or at least please don't interact by building something just to achieve a similar level of silliness!)
No harm done.
Extra Power Known at 3rd, retrained at 10th when the missing power is instead gained through the wilder progression.
I thought it might be that, but I tend to avoid retraining cheese, so I wasn't sure if that would work.
It's worth noting that the Soul Hunter Stalker (the archetype in question) has a different claim ability from the harbinger (the other class with a claim mechanic).
The differences are subtle, but significant. Soul Hunters can't claim without causing damage. Their claim doesn't have a duration, but can be withdrawn at any time. They don't recover a maneuver when making a claim, and have to get the kill in order to recover maneuvers. Lastly they can use their claim to track their target over long distances.
So it may be worth covering, at least in a cursory manner.
Thanks, I put in a few lines about that.
What do you think of Prestigious Spellcaster (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/prestigious-spellcaster/)? It might work due to magic/psionics transparency. It'd be expensive, but spending 3 feats would give you 2 more real manifester levels.
I think I'll put it in as an "Ask your DM", but I won't write the guide with the assumption that it's allowed.
Sunforger42
2018-10-20, 03:16 PM
Acknowledging that it is suboptimal, I was toying with a soulknife, aegis, awakened blade, metaforge build, with gifted blade and soul of the initiator customizations. Something about the 3rd level gifted blade power Form Astral Armor seemed to arise as an interesting take on the combo.
Acknowledging that it is suboptimal, I was toying with a soulknife, aegis, awakened blade, metaforge build, with gifted blade and soul of the initiator customizations. Something about the 3rd level gifted blade power Form Astral Armor seemed to arise as an interesting take on the combo.
If you're doing that, I'd use awakened blade to advance aegis rather than manifesting. You'll want 3 levels of each of your base classes so you can advance mind blade and take student of the astral suit.
Sunforger42
2018-10-21, 08:38 AM
I understand in a high psionics campaign, a prestige class advancing manifestor level can advance both manifesting and an aegis suit. Can someone explain to me how the aegis works with awakened blade if you're using the aegis to qualify for the initiating side?
I understand in a high psionics campaign, a prestige class advancing manifestor level can advance both manifesting and an aegis suit. Can someone explain to me how the aegis works with awakened blade if you're using the aegis to qualify for the initiating side?
If you don't use AB to advance your suit, then it stays fixed at a certain number of customization points. You can reassign those points though. What happens if you get rid of initiator's soul is not well defined, as it would lower your IL and probably leave you with maneuvers you don't qualify for. However, if you don't do that, your IL will advance with levels in AB. This means that when you adjust your suit, you can pick higher level maneuvers from your customizations. In addition, AB gives you maneuvers that are fixed and scale better with IL.
Let's say you're a 15th level Aegis/AB 10 with full IL, Initiator's Soul and a single Additional Maneuvers. From Aegis, you will have 4 maneuvers and one stance of up to 6th level that can be completely changed by reassigning customization points in your suit. From AB, you'll have stances of up to 5th, 6th and 8th level and 5 maneuvers. The level of those maneuvers is a little complicated, because your maneuver swaps will all be applied to these 5, allowing you to get up to 2 6th, 2 7th, and one 8th level maneuver from the class.
Sunforger42
2018-10-21, 03:38 PM
If you don't use AB to advance your suit, then it stays fixed at a certain number of customization points. You can reassign those points though. What happens if you get rid of initiator's soul is not well defined, as it would lower your IL and probably leave you with maneuvers you don't qualify for. However, if you don't do that, your IL will advance with levels in AB. This means that when you adjust your suit, you can pick higher level maneuvers from your customizations. In addition, AB gives you maneuvers that are fixed and scale better with IL.
Let's say you're a 15th level Aegis/AB 10 with full IL, Initiator's Soul and a single Additional Maneuvers. From Aegis, you will have 4 maneuvers and one stance of up to 6th level that can be completely changed by reassigning customization points in your suit. From AB, you'll have stances of up to 5th, 6th and 8th level and 5 maneuvers. The level of those maneuvers is a little complicated, because your maneuver swaps will all be applied to these 5, allowing you to get up to 2 6th, 2 7th, and one 8th level maneuver from the class.
I don't really understand. You get higher level maneuvers from AB, which you can change with customization points? Also, if you do advance the aegis suit, then that counts your IL from your class level, plus the advancement from AB?
Sunforger42
2018-10-27, 01:20 AM
I've also started to look at a monk of the silver first/contemplative wilder build, but I'm wondering about feats. Will you be adding a feat section to the guide?
Ninjaxenomorph
2018-10-27, 08:55 AM
How does Sleeping Goddess Style stack up for an Awakened Blade? I've always thought the combos the first feat in the style provides are interesting, but haven't really gone in-depth.
Sunforger42
2018-11-01, 01:17 AM
So, it's been looking like no one has been working on the guide recently, and no one has been responding to this thread anymore, either. Anyone out there?
So, it's been looking like no one has been working on the guide recently, and no one has been responding to this thread anymore, either. Anyone out there?
I'm here, I've just been trying to convert all of Eberron to pathfinder. I'm at around 40k words there, so this is on the back burner.
Sunforger42
2018-11-07, 06:54 PM
I'm here, I've just been trying to convert all of Eberron to pathfinder. I'm at around 40k words there, so this is on the back burner.
Does anyone else have answers to the questions we've been asking then?
Does anyone else have answers to the questions we've been asking then?Sorry for the late reply, missed this for some reason. I think I at least have the answers to your aegis/AB questions.
I don't really understand. You get higher level maneuvers from AB, which you can change with customization points? Also, if you do advance the aegis suit, then that counts your IL from your class level, plus the advancement from AB?Though this interaction is actually rather simple, it can at least initially seem quite complex and isn't exactly made obvious in the related rules texts, but I'll try my best to explain how this actually works and why. (It appears TiaC may have forgotten to take errata into account in his reply, so I believe a few details and conclusions in his reply were a bit off.)
First, few important unique aspects of Initiator's Soul (IS) and the maneuver progression provided by initiating PrC's like the AB:
By default, IS doesn't grant an automatic maneuver progression, unlike all other classes'/archetypes' related features. That is, regardless of your aegis level and IL, by itself IS only gives you 1 stance and 3 maneuvers known and readied.
IS doesn't grant any maneuver swaps, regardless of the aegis IL it provides.
Each time you spend customization points to gain IS and/or one or more instances of Additional Maneuvers or Additonal Stance, the max level of the maneuver(s) granted is determined according to the archetype maneuver progression table (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/classes/abilities-for-other-classes/). Note however that nothing else in that table applies to IS and related customizations.
Each AB level gained increases the IL of all IL-granting initiator classes/archetypes you have levels in by +1, rather than provide its own IL. Importantly, this lack of a separate IL specifically for the AB also means the AB never grants its own maneuver swaps. Instead, whenever you gain an AB level improving any of your ILs to an even number of 4 or more, you can make a maneuver swap as normal for that class (so one AB level gained may result in maneuver swaps for two or more classes). That is of course provided the class(es) in question has a feature which provides swaps, which all initiator classes/archetypes except IS have, as noted in #2 above.
Each time you gain a level in the AB which grants an additional stance or maneuver known or readied, you choose which one of your initiator classes'/archetypes' maneuver- or stance-granting feature is to benefit. The max level of an added maneuver is determined according to the default PoW system rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/systems-and-use/#Selecting_Martial_Maneuvers), regardless of whether the class feature benefiting is otherwise limited to a lower max level (as is the case for IS).
The AB adds manuevers and stances known/readied to IS, in effect changing it into saying, if using TiaC's aegis 5/AB 10 example (additions/changes in red):
"The aegis gains the ability to learn and ready martial maneuvers. He learns three maneuvers and one stance of max 6th level, plus the previously chosen five maneuvers and three stances granted by his ten levels in the awakened blade when he takes this customization. The disciplines available to the aegis are Sleeping Goddess, Riven Hourglass and two other disciplines of his choice. ... The aegis’ initiation modifier is Intelligence, and each aegis level is counted as a full initiator level his initiator level is equal to his aegis levels plus his awakened blade levels (15th).
...
The aegis can ready all three six of his maneuvers known..."
It doesn't matter whether you have invested customization points into IS at the time when you gain an AB level for the above changes/additions to occur, though of course you won't benefit from them until you activate IS. Note that each instance you invest customization in points IS, regardless of whether you're doing so for the first time or you've done so several times before, you can choose the default three aegis maneuvers and single stance, as well as their disciplines, as if activating IS for the first time, but you cannot change your already chosen additional maneuvers and stances granted by your AB levels. Which in turn means you may want to keep an extra eye on meeting the prerequisites of those previously chosen AB maneuvers each time you activate IS, as you won't be able to use a maneuver if you no longer meet its prereqs.
Finally, remember that the max level of the default three aegis maneuvers and single stance, as well as any maneuvers and/or stances granted by Additional Maneuvers and/or Additonal Stance, is always determined according to the archetype maneuver progression table (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/classes/abilities-for-other-classes/). The the max level of each maneuver and stance granted by AB levels is instead limited by your aegis IL at the level when first gained. (In the aegis 5/AB 10 example above, the max levels of the five AB maneuvers are 8th, 7th, 6th, 5th, and 4th, and the max levels of the three AB stances 8th, 6th and 5th.)
Does this answer your questions?
I've also started to look at a monk of the silver first/contemplative wilder build, but I'm wondering about feats. Will you be adding a feat section to the guide?I'd say this greatly depends on what you're actually looking to achieve. Though spontaneously, I'd at least consider a feat which grants a more action efficient recovery method than the MoSF's rather poor full-round. Victorious Recovery, perhaps?
Also, if want to emphasize combat prowess, a single level of Fiendbound Marauder and Ordained Defender Warder combines beautifully with the MoSF, adding both reach and grab to your "Silver Fists" plus plenty of additional Wis-based maneuvers scaling through swaps with AB levels.
I'd probably reconsider the contemplative, although it does at least allow you dump the AB entry prereq powers once you start using Stance of the Inner Eye making them redundant.
How does Sleeping Goddess Style stack up for an Awakened Blade? I've always thought the combos the first feat in the style provides are interesting, but haven't really gone in-depth.I think recovering a maneuver as well as regaining both focus and deep focus as a move action could be very nifty. Perhaps a bit redundant before high levels for ABs who already have efficient recovery methods, such as from warlord, harbinger, pathwalker psy-war, nightmare dread etc, but whether that's true is of course highly dependent on whether you're using focus to power more stuff than AB features. A psion 4/warder 1 base could probably get quite a bit of mileage out of it, fueling reduced manifesting times etc.
Too bad it clashes with move action recovery and, perhaps most importantly, requires a swift in combat to activate (without quite a bit of additional investment) and prevents the use of other style feats. All things considered, I think the builds that benefit the most from this are both really into focus-shenanigans and have relatively little to gain from other style feats. So probably builds leaning quite heavily towards the manifester side.
I'm also interested in ideas on how to make the most of this.
Sunforger42
2018-11-17, 08:20 PM
Something I've been thinking about. That wilder monk of the silver fist build I'm working on. I do like the addition of fiendbound marauder and ordained defender is awesome. But I've been looking over the build and almost think that a second level of warder is good for the dark mark which works so well with eternal guardian and psionic shield bash. I've been thinking about using AB to progress the warder, not the monk. Does this seem best?
Something I've been thinking about. That wilder monk of the silver fist build I'm working on. I do like the addition of fiendbound marauder and ordained defender is awesome. But I've been looking over the build and almost think that a second level of warder is good for the dark mark which works so well with eternal guardian and psionic shield bash.I don't really see how Psionic Shield Bash would be particularly great in such a combo. If you don't expend your focus it's simply a limited and far less reliable version of Cornugon Smash (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat/), Enforcer (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/enforcer-combat/) or Shattered Dream Strike (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/feats/shattered-dream-strike-psionic/). And just as with those stronger options to impose the shaken condition, to actually remain worthwhile also in higher levels in most games, I believe Psionic Shield Bash would also need additional investments so it can be used against creatures immune to fear or mind-affecting (like Black Seraph Annihilation).
And while the potential stun effect is of course great if you do expend your focus, you still have to find a way to boost the save DC high enough to make the actions and investments worthwhile. Which I have no idea of how to do, especially since you'll likely have to use Str or Dex as your attack stat, not Wis. Though of course, if you find a way to reliably make tons of attacks each round as well as to expend your focus on every attack, even a relatively low DC might work. (To give you a decent idea of how high your DCs actually should be for a reasonable success chance at each level in a relatively easy game, have a look at the values in this chart (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BQS6uZh7_bpp3RSwOVfuYd_Eg-4iXlHXTXeWVKksihY/edit?usp=sharing), derived from the monster creation target values for opponents of a CR equal to the PC’s level. Excellent values are blue, good are green, and the “passable” minimum orange (see this article (https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2015/09/29/bench-pressing-character-creation-by-the-numbers/) for details). For more numbers, here’s a detailed compilation (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2-s8weiulPoBQjdI05LBzOUToyoZIdSsLKxHAvf8F8/edit#gid=3) of the actual average of several values, derived from the stats of no less than 3,082 monsters and NPCs found in various Paizo releases.)
Regarding a second level of Warder, this again depends on what you actually want to achieve. On the one hand, if you want to take on more of a defender ("tank") combat role, an additional warder level for "Voldemarking" can of course be great. On the other hand, each level you take in a dedicated initiator class means one level less in a dedicated manifester class, and your ML and manifestation progression doesn't scale outside of class and AB levels like IL and maneuver progression does.
Likewise, very generally and relatively speaking, additional initiator levels can often be better if you want to improve your performance in the combat role(s) you focus on, while additional manifester levels are typically better if you want to improve your overall adventuring versatility. It's often possible to get close to "the best of both worlds" by carefully choosing your options, but you still need to first have some idea of what "the best" actually could be for this particular character and game. So I recommend you don't start by looking at nifty mechanical combos, but instead by trying to define what you want this character's mechanical strengths to be, both in combat and outside of combat. I think it's often a good idea to put together a list of priorities, preferably including also any important flavor aspects or particular requirements.
If the FM Warder's Dark Mark turns out to fit with your priorities, I recommend you also take a look at Cursed Razor, as it really is the curse discipline with quite a few gems if you're willing to focus on cursing. And many CR and Eternal Guardian maneuvers work well together.
I've been thinking about using AB to progress the warder, not the monk. Does this seem best?In virtually all cases I can think of, yes. This is partially because the warder has access to a greater number of disciplines and can enter the AB with a greater number of stances and maneuvers known and readied, and partially because the warder's recovery method is typically far superior to that of the MotSF. Remember also that it's often possible to upgrade your MotSF maneuvers to quite decent levels via swaps while leveling in the AB, and even should it turn out you rarely initiate those maneuvers, they can still be put to great use as fuel for the AB's Clairsentient Counter.
Sunforger42
2018-11-21, 01:07 PM
In virtually all cases I can think of, yes. This is partially because the warder has access to a greater number of disciplines and can enter the AB with a greater number of stances and maneuvers known and readied, and partially because the warder's recovery method is typically far superior to that of the MotSF. Remember also that it's often possible to upgrade your MotSF maneuvers to quite decent levels via swaps while leveling in the AB, and even should it turn out you rarely initiate those maneuvers, they can still be put to great use as fuel for the AB's Clairsentient Counter.
When you say that they scale with the swaps, ate saying that when a prestige class causes a swap, it does so for every initiating class you took going into it, or are you saying that while I should use the advancing maneuvers and stances for warder, I should use the swaps for the monk?
exelsisxax
2018-11-21, 01:21 PM
When you say that they scale with the swaps, ate saying that when a prestige class causes a swap, it does so for every initiating class you took going into it, or are you saying that while I should use the advancing maneuvers and stances for warder, I should use the swaps for the monk?
Prestige classes don't provide swaps. Maneuver swaps are provided by base classes only, and based on IL only. They can't be transferred across progressions. Your monk swaps are monk swamps, and your warder swaps are warder swaps.
Archetype swaps are not useful when you multiclass or PrC significantly, because they do not unlock maneuvers based on IL, but class level. If you have 3 or fewer levels of monk, you can't ever bootstrap your monk maneuvers above 1st level, so that makes monk swaps uselsss in these cases.
Warder progression doesn't care about class level, only IL. Since AB provides full IL, the swaps are very useful, even if your warder level is very low.
As Upho mentioned, the progression is an entirely different question. Warder, as a full initiator, has a lot more readied maneuvers that you can stuff with AB maneuvers, while a monk has very few. If you intend to take a lot of AB levels, warder is almost certainly better, but if you intend only a dip away from monk it could be a better option to stick them to monk progression.
Sunforger42
2018-11-21, 05:35 PM
Prestige classes don't provide swaps. Maneuver swaps are provided by base classes only, and based on IL only. They can't be transferred across progressions. Your monk swaps are monk swamps, and your warder swaps are warder swaps.
Archetype swaps are not useful when you multiclass or PrC significantly, because they do not unlock maneuvers based on IL, but class level. If you have 3 or fewer levels of monk, you can't ever bootstrap your monk maneuvers above 1st level, so that makes monk swaps uselsss in these cases.
Warder progression doesn't care about class level, only IL. Since AB provides full IL, the swaps are very useful, even if your warder level is very low.
As Upho mentioned, the progression is an entirely different question. Warder, as a full initiator, has a lot more readied maneuvers that you can stuff with AB maneuvers, while a monk has very few. If you intend to take a lot of AB levels, warder is almost certainly better, but if you intend only a dip away from monk it could be a better option to stick them to monk progression.
Now I feel like I've got three different answers as to how prestige progression and swaps work.
When you say that they scale with the swaps, ate saying that when a prestige class causes a swap, it does so for every initiating class you took going into it, or are you saying that while I should use the advancing maneuvers and stances for warder, I should use the swaps for the monk?I'm saying that whenever your MotSF IL or any other of your IL's increase to an even number of at least 4 as a result of you gaining an additional AB level, you can swap one of that class' maneuvers to any maneuver the IL allows for according to the PoW general rules for full initiators (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/systems-and-use/#Selecting_Martial_Maneuvers). In other words, the max level of the MotSF maneuvers available to you when making those swaps aren't bound by the usual archetype class level dependent cap.
And just as Exels wrote, this is completely independent on whether you choose to add additional maneuvers known/readied granted by the AB's progression to the warder's pool of manuevers known/readied or to that of of the MotSF.
Now I feel like I've got three different answers as to how prestige progression and swaps work.Ah yes. Unfortunately, there's some disagreement/confusion about what the RAW says and whether the RAW is 100% clear about which max level cap is to be used for archetype maneuvers gained through swaps granted by taking levels in PrC's like the AB. So Exels' reply may very well be technically correct, but it's based on what I'd call one of at least three possible mutually exclusive interpretations of the RAW, and other people are certain one of those other interpretations is the only one possible.
When I wrote "it's often possible to upgrade your MotSF maneuvers to quite decent levels via swaps while leveling in the AB" I was sort of trying to sidestep the issue and instead simply went by the interpretation I believe is most easily and commonly used in practice, as well as arguably most in line with the designers' stated intent of removing the usual class level cap from archetype maneuvers gained by taking PrC levels:
I am now unclear as to whether or not this rule shift applies to maneuvers swapped out due to IL advancement.If the IL advancement was caused by gaining a level of an initiator prestige class, it's not bound by the normal archetype class level cap, but by IL like full initiators. If the IL advancement was gained by taking levels in any other class, it's still bound by that archetype class level cap (and therefore the swap doesn't grant access to higher level maneuvers unless the level gained was in the actual archetype whose powers are swapped).
Even if he was taking levels in Wizard his IL levels would advance at 1/2 rate and at HB 7/Wiz 2 they get a 3rd level swap and at HB 7/Wiz 6 they get another swap with level 4 maneuvers available.No. A HB 7/Wiz 6 would gain a swap due to increased IL, but is still bound to max level 3 maneuvers.
Again, the max maneuver level of archetype initiators are regulated by CLASS levels, not IL (again, with the exception of taking levels in initiator PrC's).
Ah. I get it, although that's a slightly arcane way to look at the charts. Huh. That is a strong incentive for the Initiator Archetypes to look at Prestige Classes.
Yes, that was intentional.
Basically, I recommend you simply use the normal default IL-limited level (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/systems-and-use/#Selecting_Martial_Maneuvers) also for MotSF maneuver swaps granted when taking levels in the AB. Just as the rules for MotSF maneuvers granted by the AB's progression.
One could make an argument that this is less in line with the RAW than what Exels wrote, but I think it's also quite apparent this particular issue was overlooked when the rules were written. So while the RAW may allow for technically perfectly valid extrapolations, I think the lack of any explicit instructions in the rules addressing this issue also means such extrapolations won't necessarily tell you anything about whether their effects were intended.
(You can read a discussion Exels, Andor13 and me had about this starting with post #1194 here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?420178-Pathfinder-Dreamscarred-Press-FAQ/page30) and continues to post 1220. Just be warned that it's not exactly easy reading...)
Take what you will from this.
Sunforger42
2018-11-26, 08:29 AM
I guess back to my character, lol, I've been working through the concept. I want to stay with half giant as my race, but I've been torn between going with the the contemplative wilder for the manifesting and an augmented gifted war soul for the focused offense blade skill to make the guy heavily Wis SAD and the ability to enchant a couple of gauntlets with psicrystal shards and a focus on initiating. This is a high psionics setting. There is a blade skill I don't understand. Improved psicrystal augment. Does this negate the bonus penalty of splitting a psicrystal if one wants to dual wield?
exelsisxax
2018-11-26, 11:29 AM
I guess back to my character, lol, I've been working through the concept. I want to stay with half giant as my race, but I've been torn between going with the the contemplative wilder for the manifesting and an augmented gifted war soul for the focused offense blade skill to make the guy heavily Wis SAD and the ability to enchant a couple of gauntlets with psicrystal shards and a focus on initiating. This is a high psionics setting. There is a blade skill I don't understand. Improved psicrystal augment. Does this negate the bonus penalty of splitting a psicrystal if one wants to dual wield?
No. It doesn't saying anything about doing that.
Sunforger42
2018-11-26, 12:48 PM
No. It doesn't saying anything about doing that.
Then tell me how those two blade skills interact, please.
exelsisxax
2018-11-26, 01:17 PM
Then tell me how those two blade skills interact, please.
If you mean "does the bonus counteract the penalty for net +0", then still no. Splitting is -2, you get +1 on the improved. It doesn't give you +1 total bonus each time you do it, it gives +1 on the item you augment.
Sunforger42
2018-11-26, 02:33 PM
If you mean "does the bonus counteract the penalty for net +0", then still no. Splitting is -2, you get +1 on the improved. It doesn't give you +1 total bonus each time you do it, it gives +1 on the item you augment.
I thought splitting once so you have two psicrystals only have you a -1 penalty. Obviously splitting it more to cover more weapons or armor or shields or whatever would make it steeper, I get that.
exelsisxax
2018-11-26, 03:34 PM
I thought splitting once so you have two psicrystals only have you a -1 penalty. Obviously splitting it more to cover more weapons or armor or shields or whatever would make it steeper, I get that.
When the crystal is split, its overall enhancement bonus is reduced by 1 for each item enhanced.
Doesn't say -1 for each beyond the first or anything like that, or include clauses like the base soulknife enhancing two blades. It's bad for focus, but it still makes things masterwork so you can kill people using TWF masterwork bar stools with weapon focus/spec.
You are enhancing 2 items to TWF, so you're getting -2 to the total. This isn't great, because it basically eliminates the actual enhancement bonus until level 9 or so. This is a bad idea for that build, because a base soulknife gets better mileage out of the baseline dual soulblade manifesting without using blade skills and can pick up a weapon emulation blade skill if actual guantlets are necessary.
I guess back to my character, lol, I've been working through the concept. I want to stay with half giant as my race, but I've been torn between going with the the contemplative wilder for the manifesting and an augmented gifted war soul for the focused offense blade skill to make the guy heavily Wis SAD and the ability to enchant a couple of gauntlets with psicrystal shards and a focus on initiating. This is a high psionics setting. There is a blade skill I don't understand. Improved psicrystal augment. Does this negate the bonus penalty of splitting a psicrystal if one wants to dual wield?Exels has already answered your question, but I'd like to remind you again that it's better to first decide on what you want to do, then to start looking at the options which may help you do that. Again:
It all depends on what you want to achieve.
So even if Improved priscrystal had bypassed the usual TWF penalty, it wouldn't necessarily have made your gifted war soul alternative build any better. It may very well turn to be a largely or even completely irrelevant issue.
Sunforger42
2020-05-09, 01:56 AM
Exels has already answered your question, but I'd like to remind you again that it's better to first decide on what you want to do, then to start looking at the options which may help you do that. Again:
It all depends on what you want to achieve.
So even if Improved priscrystal had bypassed the usual TWF penalty, it wouldn't necessarily have made your gifted war soul alternative build any better. It may very well turn to be a largely or even completely irrelevant issue.
So, I have two character builds in mind that I'd love to hear someone's feedback on. I imagine someone who is taking the fiendbound marauder option looks something like Hellboy, with his giant right hand. I loved the idea of an unarmed combatant dual wielding Hellboy hands, and thought of a Half-Giant or something like that who could manifest them on a whim using his soulknife ability. That eventually morphed into my Contemplative/MotSF build mostly because I love the flavor of having a contemplative monk so in tune with the flow of the universe he's become an Awakened Blade.
Another idea that I really liked that your very complicated explanations scared me away from was a Tactician/Aegis Awakened Blade build that dual wielded two-handed swords with the four arm mods of the aegis and the full progression of the Tactician.
I understand this may come across as thread necromancy, and for that I apologize, even though I never understood why that was a bad thing. Better to bring my thoughts to a thread that was already discussing them than start all over, in my opinion. But, I understand that it's frowned upon. I do have to say, no one has actually addressed my issues with the Awakened Blade handbook, that hasn't been completed or even progressed in years, and for that matter, no one has touched the Tactician handbook either....
Blame the quarantine for my necromancy. I've been getting back into my old metagaming ways....
Epic Legand
2020-05-09, 05:19 AM
Its simple, many tables don't allow POW or Psi, and IF allowed this is the single best prestige class available. I have never played one, but thats simply because every one I map out seams so much better then the rest of the players, I feel it would be in poor taste to use him. In addition, most games end before this class could get its full return. The person who started it may have moved on to another system. However theres nothing stopping you from picking up where they left off. Its perfect for recreating a jedi. Depending on how you want to tapper off your power levels, you could squese in Psi2/Warsoul2/Edgelord1, and progress your lightsaber, force chocking-lighting and maneuvers all nicely. With the right traits-feats, At level 15, you have level 15 initiator/ level 12(15) psion and soul knife blade at 15. I love them.
dude123nice
2020-05-09, 05:48 PM
So, I have two character builds in mind that I'd love to hear someone's feedback on. I imagine someone who is taking the fiendbound marauder option looks something like Hellboy, with his giant right hand. I loved the idea of an unarmed combatant dual wielding Hellboy hands, and thought of a Half-Giant or something like that who could manifest them on a whim using his soulknife ability. That eventually morphed into my Contemplative/MotSF build mostly because I love the flavor of having a contemplative monk so in tune with the flow of the universe he's become an Awakened Blade.
Another idea that I really liked that your very complicated explanations scared me away from was a Tactician/Aegis Awakened Blade build that dual wielded two-handed swords with the four arm mods of the aegis and the full progression of the Tactician.
I understand this may come across as thread necromancy, and for that I apologize, even though I never understood why that was a bad thing. Better to bring my thoughts to a thread that was already discussing them than start all over, in my opinion. But, I understand that it's frowned upon. I do have to say, no one has actually addressed my issues with the Awakened Blade handbook, that hasn't been completed or even progressed in years, and for that matter, no one has touched the Tactician handbook either....
Blame the quarantine for my necromancy. I've been getting back into my old metagaming ways....
Hmm, I was sure thread necro-ing wasn't allowed on these forums.
Ramza00
2020-05-09, 05:59 PM
Just talking out loud but would Aegis 3/ Soulknife 1/ Psychic Warrior 1/ Awakened Blade be any good?
With Soulknife being both Augmented Blade and War Soul, and Psychic Warrior being Pathwalker with the Scarlet Blade or Mithral Current path.
At level 15 he should be a 15th level Aegis, 11th level Augmented Blade Soulknife (+5 soul blade), 11th level Psychic Warrior Trance, and 10th level Augmented Blade abilities.
Furthermore the Soulknife grants a 5th, 4th, and 3rd Manuever known, the Psychic Warrior also a 5th, 4th, and 3rd. And a 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th level known with your Prestige Class Awakened Blade in addition to the maneuvers Aegis gives depending on how many customization you spend.
Sunforger42
2021-06-11, 10:36 AM
Yay for more thread necromancy.....
When I google Awakened Blade handbook, this is still the first result to come up. I figure this is where all the relevant discussion is coming, so I might as well come here instead of opening a whole new thread that ends up referring to this one, anyway.
I'm wondering if anyone is still interested in and/or doing anything about the Tactician and Awakened Blade handbooks. I think I'm going to go with two Awakened Blades in my campaign, the first a Contemplative/MotSF, just because that is so flavorful and pretty SAD. I am also going to go with a Tactician/Fiendbound Marauder dual wielder, just because I love the flavor of a two-handed Hellboy kind of thing.
I guess I have a question. Do Claws of the Ice Bear count as a single weapon? Because can't a soulknife reproduce unique weapons with the right blade skill? In which case, wouldn't that count as two spiked gauntlets? That's been my major goal with this whole build, to be honest. I'm trying to figure out a way I can use soulknife to create the gauntlets that I can enhance with the Fiendbound Marauder and Monk of the Silver Fist class abilities.
Peelee
2021-06-11, 12:18 PM
The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Boo for more thread necromancy.....
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