OOTS #311 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

The new comic (for Monday) is up.

You should probably all read the News page (http://www.GiantITP.com) as well.

[endoperez]

Cool! Thank you, and I wish you strength to endure all your fans.

[Kaazmodan]

Yea. Finally a strip. People were beginning to fear that you had died giant!

Great strip!

Wohooo. first page!

[Calthor]

What a dilemma there for Haley.

Hiding is her best skill, but she can't hide anymore...

[diapsid]

awwww, poor haley. I was hoping for a nice big smooch at the end, get it all sorted out...

"hiding is my best skill." poor wee lass

[Lauren]

Ohmigawd!

I feel so sorry for her!

*hugs Haley*

Also *hugs* to the Giant -- hooray, you're not dead!

[RebelRogue]

Aha, so Haley's not... good enough! Interesting to say at least!

[Grunjon]

Good stuff, Giant! Poor Haley. She's really trying to figure this out. Loved the final lines. "But I'm a rogue...hiding is my best skill."

Is Kyron and Rachel and the reasons for their leaving (along with Mom's reason) found in "On The Origins of PCs"? I've been meaning to order that, and I guess I need to quit procrastinating.


As for cutting back to 2 strips a week: no arguements here. I mean, it's been pretty clear for a bit that things are difficult for you. We'll all be disappointed to have less Stick for a while, and that's just a reflection of how good the comic is. In other words, you do a great job, and folks can't wait for the next installment. But I think it's better for us to know up front what to expect.

(Then maybe we'll have a few less "I hope Rich isn't hurt" posts whenever the comic's a bit late) ;D

[schmikey]

Personification of self-loathing. Good concept.

I hope the new schedule allows you to do what you need to get done. Twice a week is fine by me. ...Grk.

[Tomada]

KISS HIM ALREADY!


Giant, what you do here is a work of art. And art can't be rushed. Be in peace with yourself and your fanhood, we all understand.

I, myself, find me almost failling deadlines all the time. It's difficult to work and live at the same time.

The important thing in life is to be happy and make others around you happy. But try to put yourself first, but NEVER ABOVE others.

[TheJet31619]

Awesome comic Giant. Kinda sad about only two updates, but it does take a lot of pressure off of you, so it's a good thing.

[The Giant]

Is Kyron and Rachel and the reasons for their leaving (along with Mom's reason) found in "On The Origins of PCs"?

No, that's new to this comic.

[Karajorma]

Poor Haley.

Been lurking here a while but I felt so sorry for her I had to post :D

[thespyder]

wow, first page. my reward for staying up late. that was much deeper than i've expected from this comic. last one too. way to go rich!

[Grunjon]

No, that's new to this comic.

Thanks for letting me know, Rich. Still doesn't change the fact that I need to order the books!

[Ellimist]

Just to say I love her line about
"how else would expect your self-loathing to look"

Teen angst jokes really brighten up a bad day :)

[Darius Midnite]

Just plain love it! ;)

[Lauren]

KISS HIM ALREADY!


WORD WORD WORD.

...is it sad that I'm 'shipping two stick figures?

Ahhh, smeg it.

KISS HIM ALREADY!

[Sparhawk]

Wow, that's a change from the light hearted last comic. I like it a lot.

[Asoon]

Haley was Goth as a teenager... makes sense.

[Ikkitosen]

Excellent strip - looks like things might be coming to a head :)

And regarding the schedule change, s'all good and I for one appreciate the "up-frontness" of you telling us. It's disappointing to not get a comic when you're expecting one, but now we know not to expect one, so solved!

Quality >> Quantity, after all.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

Hilarious! And I told y'all so about the whole "telling him she loves him isn't enough becuase she knows he can't understand her" thing.

[Lloyd]

Woot! Thank you Giant! Love the new comic, perfect way to spend a study break!

And don't worry about pushing back to two comics a week. Two comics a week are better than no comics a week.

[houseofcommons]

How appropriate. I've been rewatching Babylon 5 lately, and picking out some similar themes between JMS's work and the Giant's. Unrequited love was the source of all pain out in space, too, and the character Ivanova loses everyone she loves.

Very nice similarities.

And let me guess. . .Goth Haley's favorite band was Cure Light Wounds?

[Shanatica]

I'm fine with you going back to 2 comics a week. It' s a bit nicer to read knowing that you didn't get to stressed out during the making of the comic ;)
The comics are worth waiting for ;D


Oh.. And poor Haley... Brings me back to when I was a teenager. :'(

[Rethorn]

Excellent comic Rich. Feel free to take off all the time you need, itll just make the comics that much better when they do come out.

[Sylian]

Well, two comics per weak is better than no comics.

[Shara_Littlebottom]

Giant, you can do the introspective as well as you do the funny. My (metaphorical) hat is off to you! Great stirp! It was well worth the wait! As usual the facial expressions were so good that you could almost read the story without actually reading the text.

Every time you do a strip that focuses on one character my favourite character changes, lol. I guess my fave is the one you're currently telling us about! :D

The reappearance of the teenage Haley was cool too, who better to tell you straighten up and fly right?

And oh Elan's obliviousness (is that a word?) is so sweet to see (last panel is a true gem).

Woo what a comic! Thank you Giant!

[The_Pyre]

Do whatever you think is best, Giant. ;)

Haley is left handed?

[Lianae]

Aww, poor Haley!

Good luck with all the other projects Giant, everyone here understands, and those that don't, well they should just keep their mouths shut! :)

[aegron]

Awww, poor haley. This comic actually made me sad. So great job Giant!

[MrSokkie]

Hey Giant,

About the strip: Nice piece of internal monologuing going crazy, there.

About the news: Don't rushing the creative process. it's not so bad to have to wait a day or 2 longer for our new dose of OOTS; speaking for myself it just makes me appreciate it all the better.

We may have been living in a three-comics-a-week-luxury for far too long, but I think your fans will surive a hardly-Spartan frequency of 2 comics a week for a couple of months.

Keep your health and sanity first on your list, then quality of comics (usually top of the line), and only then worry about quantity.

All the best, and I'll keep following the comics (and buying the books, and the coffee-mugs, and the mouse mats and...)

Blessings!

MrSokkie

[Grunjon]

Haley was Goth as a teenager... makes sense.
First seen in Comic #93 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=93) ("a.k.a. Dark Mistress Shadowgale").

And yes, houseofcommons, "THE CURE light wounds" *is* mentioned off to the left side of that one panel in the 93rd strip! ;)

[Jaxinator]

And while Haley strugles with her inner turmoil, confonting self-doubt and loathing due to a poor self image and tragic events from her past, our hero Elan enjoys his scruptious dinner in nothing less than innocent oblivion. That's our boy.

In a real relationship he'd get into a lot of trouble for not being able to see/sence/hear/feel/smell Haley's inner teenager. All women know that it is a mans duty/obligation to be psychic when it comes to how they feel, and what they are thinking. Most men learn of this rather late...usually after their first failed relationship. Elan is in for a helluva time.

[EscherEnigma]

Hm... Well, I think I got the next few strips somewhat figured out...
Seems like for a while we'll be alternating between haley/elan and roy/celia. Ok, so it's not a HUGE spoiler, but I'd rather be safe then sorry.

Oh, and yay! Haley with words that aren't cyphered!

On a related note, I suggested in the last haley-speech comic that some programmer-fan should come up with a cipher program for the giant if there are going to be a bunch more cryptogram strips. Well, I got bored and made a crude one (it works, nothing fancy but it works). Was good practice.

on a side note, I'm amused that Haley hasn't apparently grown much (or at all) since she was 15. I mean, sure, girls tend to mature faster then boys, but they don't tend to finish quite so soon. I laugh. Gotta love that artistic license.

[Aawill]

Woah... interior dialogue... it often happens to me, too... ;D ;D ;D

[MrSokkie]

On a related note, I suggested in the last haley-speech comic that some programmer-fan should come up with a cipher program for the giant if there are going to be a bunch more cryptogram strips. Well, I got bored and made a crude one (it works, nothing fancy but it works). Was good practice.

Aren't there softwareversions of the German Enigma machine available... That would be fun to crack ;D

[CockroachTeaParty]

Poor Haley. Why am I awake? Oh yeah, I'm in college, and I've nothing better to do than constantly check here for updates.

I SMILE!!

I wonder if Elan can see that Haley is speaking to a ghost across the table. He's probably too busy tending to the wounds of the pepper shaker. (Salt totally won.)

[Jaxinator]

And Giant, I am sure everyone here agrees, do what ya gotta do man, we understand. Doing a webcomic for your fanbase is all well and good, but eating regularly and having the rent money handy is what I would term a Higher Priority Fault.

[EscherEnigma]

wait, rent and food money are supposed to be a priority? huh... so THATS what I've been doing wrong...

[Delgarde]

Well, the reduced frequency is a shame, but one can't complain about what we get for free. And the hint about a new OOTS product is intriguing... the next book, maybe?

[Gefangnis]

Go Rich! Hopefully a biweekly schedule will give you more Rich time.

I know I'll still be in your zombie webcomic reader army.

As far as the strip -- awesome! I hope my teenage past never comes to haunt me...

[little_earthquake]

yeah. I simply love it.
And someone's already said it, me too I had to think of Babylon 5. Not only the Ivanova thing, but also Stephen meeting himself.

Well.. really cool.

And I think everyone will be ok with the twice-per-week-rythm, since you offer this comic as a present for us, so we're thankful, Giant.

[Bakta]

Re : 2 comics per week. Well feeding one tummy and being able to give gifts to loved ones takes over anything, no arguments here.

Re : Self loathing. Having oneself as teeen speaking back at you.......... Ooooooo spoopky

Re: Reason being late part 2. I'de really have liked me to see that the reason the comic being late was due to the akwardness of having to draw Throg being shown as a french maid crossdresser.

[Silmarwen]

Yeahee! 1 + 1/2 comic for today :)

As for the new schedule, dear Giant I get the feeling that this job is stressing you way to much. Being the 1st of May and all, I would suggest the following:
Do 8 hours of work each day, no weekends, and publish the amount of comics/week that work can produce. Plain and simple. ;)

I will still read it as long as it is online :)

[OzymandiasVolt]

lol character development

[Antina]

THANK YOU GIANT - TWICE is a lot BETTER THAN NONE :)

as my little son would´ve said :).

And great Mono- ahem - Dialoge ??

:)

[fall_ark]

Haven't posted for a long time, ahh I just love today's strip.
For a short time I even got the feeling that this single strip is worth the long period of two-update-a-week ..... But I think I was wrong, 'cos there'll be more. ;)

/cheers for Giant's hardwork.

[kaairn]

Don't worry about it Giant. :) The schedule that you've got coming up looks like hell so it's completely understandable about you cutting back on the strips temporarily (personally I would understand if it was a permanent change due to your workload).

Good luck for the the hellish months coming up and keep up the good work with the comic in all it's iterations. :)

[Last_resort_33]

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

I think I'm gunna cry :'(

[ladycomet]

Excellent strip Giant. I'm assuming that's the character development for Haley you were mentioning, and its brilliant. Thanks for the double-length strip.

And don't stress yourself out over your schedule. We'd much rather have you sane than crazy busy because of us.

[phlip]

Gah! As if the anticipation for Book #2 wasn't enough, now I want to get Book #3 just to find out what's going to go in that extra half a page... the anticipation wells up inside me like... a... thing... that wells up inside people... OK, I'm done.

And no complaints here about the new schedule, it'll mean I also get to spend more time working and less time reading the comic... admittedly at first it'll be more time in withdrawal-like symptoms, but it'll eventually become more time working...

[Ubeor]

Don't worry 'bout the new update schedule, Giant. We in the unwashed masses will learn to accept slightly less cool free stuff. :-)

Seriously, dude, if you ever need to take time off, feel free to tell us to bugger off for a week or so. No need to burn the Stick at both ends....

As for Haley... her mother was "good and pure", eh? Hmmm... I guess it's off to the Spoiler thread for me! :-)

[GKBeetle]

I love the look on the Elan's face in the last panel where he is happily stuffing his face totally oblivious to Haley's torment. Gotta love poor innocent Elan.

[Flak_Razorwill]

That was nice. I haven't seen goth Haley in ages.

[CelestialStick]

on a side note, I'm amused that Haley hasn't apparently grown much (or at all) since she was 15. I mean, sure, girls tend to mature faster then boys, but they don't tend to finish quite so soon. I laugh. Gotta love that artistic license.

Actually it appears that she has shrunk a bit in the, um, upper region. Did anyone else notice? ;D

[The Doctor]

(See, I told you the job entailed a tad more than posting web comics...)

Anyways, is there a way to get Haley to skip the self-loathing and get to the snogging?
Can someone hit Elan with the clue bat?
It pains my heart to see two people made for each other, so close and still so far away...

[paul_brown_1973]

First seen in Comic #93 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=93) ("a.k.a. Dark Mistress Shadowgale").

Thanks for the reminder of #93 - now it becomes even clearer why Haley is so close to the teenage mind; she never left Dark Mistress Shadowgale behind. She'd rather face monsters than face herself - probably familiar to most of us at some point. Here's hoping that she rolls a natural 1 on her hide check ;)

On the "2 per week" subject, that's barely even bad news. I read the first line of the news and thought that Rich / his family / his pets were seriously ill and that OoTS was stopping forever. Down to 2 a week was the biggest relief ever. To paraphrase 'Friends', "this is terrible. My wallet's too small for my fifties and my diamonds shoes are too tight."

(How surreal is this? We're psychoanalysing stick figures. Coming next folks - the Burlew Code: A stick figure drawing holds the key to the secret of the real heritage of Banjo the clown)

[Flak_Razorwill]

Thanks for the reminder of #93 - now it becomes even clearer why Haley is so close to the teenage mind; she never left Dark Mistress Shadowgale behind. She'd rather face monsters than face herself - probably familiar to most of us at some point. Here's hoping that she rolls a natural 1 on her hide check ;)


Rod Serling once said that the toughest monsters to face were those not in the world around us, but within.

Anyone else think she may be losing it? Seriously? I mean, no one saw Elan rocking out with chopsticks, and she's talking to her illusionary self. She already lost her speech, how much further down the Lovecraftian ladder does she have to fall? And I love the translucent speech bubbles. Great detail.

As an aside, I've had this conversation over the past week, probably even more so with my former Zim-loving self. Ick.


EDIT:

I love this song:

There you see him
Sitting there across the way
He don’t got a lot to say
But there’s something about him
And you don’t know why
But you’re dying to try
You wanna kiss the dude

Yes, you want him
Look at him, you know you do
It’s possible he wants you, too
There is one way to ask him
It don’t take a word
Not a single word
Go on and kiss the dude

Sing with me now
Sha-la-la-la-la-la
My, oh, my
Look at the gal too shy
She ain’t gonna kiss the dude
Sha-la-la-la-la-la
Ain’t that sad
Ain’t it shame, too bad
You gonna miss the dude

[Reaver225]

Aww, that's so sad... Talking to yourself is a of insanity, y'know, Haley.

But how is the Giant going to fit the half-page into the book?


Edit: I just noticed, Goth/Haley has a 'c' mark on her temple. Any ideas what it is?

[Ubeor]

Edit: I just noticed, Goth/Haley has a 'c' mark on her temple. Any ideas what it is?

I believe it's an eyebrow piercing...

[jmbeach]

Edit: I just noticed, Goth/Haley has a 'c' mark on her temple. Any ideas what it is?

That's the ring through her eyebrow piercing.

[Blaznak]

Again, an excellent strip about the character of the characters. I'm not sure why this seems to come off as more "genuine" dialogue than the Roy stuff last strip. ~ eh ~ just me on that one.

Anyways, I appreciated seeing Haley having to deal with Elan, even if it meant really dealing with herself, first. I guess its true what they said in "Buckaroo Banzai"... "No matter where you go, there you are..."

Later!

[oowatie]

Great comic, sir. Love the deep psychological insight to Haley, even if it included an eyebrow piercing ;D

[farewell2kings]

Giant,

Don't work too hard, man. Whatever schedule you set is fine with me--your job is supposed to be fun, not a chore. Thank you for all the great laughs over the last couple of years.

Looking forward to the next book.

[Rimmer]

Arrr, Giant, I thought that was going to be some horrible news. I can deal with two strips a week, especially since I'm not even paying for this or anything, I can't complain.

In fact I feel quite guilty that I have a whole £40 gathering dust and a birthday coming and I'm still not ordering OOtS merchandise. I usually buy stuff from sties with free cartoons/comics right away :P

We'll see.


Anyhow, the comic. I definitely didn't expect to see goth type Haley appearing again (always happens to me), but I really liked the self loathing thing. Reminds me of something I'd hallucinate on a regular basis.

But I do feel quite sorry for poor Haley... And want to find out more..

Love the last panel where Elan's just got his usual smile... Oh how I wish the world were like that to me :P


That's the ring through her eyebrow piercing.

That took me like, 4 readings just to work out. Haha.

[Vaarsuvius_Prime]

We support Rich!

[amorax_kaka]

YES, FIFTH PAGE AND THERE'S A NEW COMIC!!

[Dementist]

Wow. That's depressing. After the previous comic of romance in DnD innuendo, this one is a bit of a downer. While it does provide some good insight into Haley's character, it's still kind of gloomy. Besides, having a psychological conversation with your own subconcious is never a good thing, and is usually the preclude to either some huge breakdown and insanity, or some huge revelation and healing. It's usually the former though. And of course, throughout the whole bout of self-doubt, Elan's wearing his usual clueless smile.

By the way, does anyone know exactly why Haley's stray hair is on the opposite side of her face as that of her young and gloomy doppleganger? Maybe some kind of inverse perception type thing? Just a thought.

[Kanashimi]

Wonderful comic, and thank you for the extra length! love the personification of self loathing.

Heck if comics are twice a week but this level of quality, it's more than worth it. Can't wait to get the next book ( and more shirts!)

[Theodoxus]

Gotta agree with the majority here, Rich. Even if you were forced to post 1 a week, I'd still support you. Glad you had the chance to clear the air with what's going on - and I assume the product is the new book, and that's only good news :) One reason (of very many) that I loved Dungeon Crawlin' Fools was your explanation of why things the way they are, plus the extra pages and goodies. I hope you're doing the same for this one.

Keep up the excellent work, Mr. Berlew.

THANK YOU!!!

Theo

[LoH]

C'mon, Haley, toss your fear aside and TACKLE ELAN! You'd have initiative on him!

"tralalalala don't be scared, c'mon and... kiss ze bard!"

If only Elan had a clue... +1 would be enough.


I can also imagine, in the recesses of Elan's mind, a crab singing "Kiss ze Girl" in the background.

[Aiani]

Poor Haley. I felt so sad for her when I read the comic. Also I am dying of curiosity to know why she feels that she isn't good enough. The suspense is killing me. Awesome comic!

[TB]

And we see that Haley really does naturally have that color hair. ...there's actually something she hasn't been hiding!?

[Sebastian]

And let me guess. . .Goth Haley's favorite band was Cure Light Wounds?


Actually, yes. There was a poster in one of the flashbacks.
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=93

[Morchaint]

Excellent comic, as usual.
well, ya gotta do what ya gotta do, and if it means
2 comic/ week then Ill deal, and hope that we can go
back to 3 as soon as possible.

[Zora]

I know it may not mean much coming from someone who doesn't post much in here, but I loved the comic! Great character development...

And I completely understand the need to cut back the strip when things are busy.

As much as others, I would like to see a strip EVERY day, but if I want to enjoy it at all, there's just some things that have to be accepted for the sake of having it at all.

Thanks, Giant!

[luilupino]

Giant, its not about quantity, its about quality. Don't let your fans tell you what you must do. Don't feel pushed to do something that is going to disturb you. Im just glad I can get the comics, even if it were once a week it still would be ok.

and the strip
Haley has always been and its always going to be my favorite. I know what she is going through.
Thats a lot more drama than I thought this strip had :)

[DOOM2099]

Not dead after all? Good for you.


Coincidentally, PvP was the 1st strip I ever read also/ Maybe you should blame Scott for the God Awful WebComic of DOOM!

[Nerd-o-rama]

Aw, Giant, I understand the schedule problems. Hell, I'm in college - other things just tend to sort of stop happening around this time of year. Just glad you're alright.

Also: Awww, angst!

[warmachine]

This comic helps explains why I don't play good aligned rogues. The purpose of a rogue is to find and take items and information that don't belong to them. Such an evil can be necessary to combat a greater evil but what kind of character history could justify practicing such skills while being good? A criminal investigator is the obvious answer but these were few and far between in medieval times and hard to justify why his paymaster is happy to let him go. Worse, to catch a thief requires thinking and behaving like one.

So, a rogue either takes what he can get away with, which is evil, balances his self-interest against those from whom he is taking, which is neutral, or opposes those who are evil, which is good, but must still think and behave evil. A rogue can either be true to his own beliefs and be neutral or evil, or be good but compromise his own moral standards. This is, of course, why paladins always hate them.

Compromising my beliefs is anathema to me, even for a fictional persona, and as the GM is not playing an evil campaign, I have to stick with neutral for rogues.

[Saithis Bladewing]

Glad to see you're alright Giant, don't worry about cutting back the number of strips temporarily, just don't overwork yourself. We won't have any OOTS if you somehow kill yourself by working too hard. :o

Great strip! ;D

[Parallax]

Technically, this was a one-and-a-half page comic anyways, so it would more than make up for the delay, if there was a need for it. I do not pay anything to read the OOTS that I wouldn't pay anyways (aka, internet connection) so as far as I am concerned, EVERY strip is a bonus strip. Besides it is very hard to keep a steady flow of good ideas with a deadline over one's head. At the end of the day, I'd rather read fewer, better comics than more mediocre ones.

It is very kind of Rich to keep us readers posted on the update schedule, certainly, but I don't think an apology is necessary because we are not owed anything. That's my take on it anyways. If I were to suggest one possible improvement to the comic, it would be the instauration of a buffer of comics, a queue, and a script to post them on schedule. Then as long as the artist keeps the buffer fed the updates will be regular and on time, which tends to quell discontent in the readership, whether justified or not.

Anyways, OOTS is a great comic, I will keep on reading for as long as it keeps on going.

[Squall83]

Great Comic! ^^ Can't wait to see all these plots collide, when Haley tells Elan that she loves him, the OOTS get a message from the Linear Guild, Xykons attack and Mikos reappearance. *_*

It's ok if you go back to twice a week. I don't think that there are any other online comics that are updated 3 times a week AND have a multilayered, exciting and funny story anyway, so you're still the best! :D

Greets, Squall83

[SumGuy]

2nd.Saddest.Comic.Ever.

...Glad to see the return of Goth Haley though. She has the coolest hair out of anybody in OotS.

And Giant, as for the 2 days a week thing, just think of it as going back to your younger days, where summer meant lollygagging and doing signifigantly less work than during the school year. Everybody needs a vacation now and then. Personally, I'm more enticed by the 2 a week with the occasional Friday bouns goodness, and a couple 7-a-week incentives thrown in than the 3 a week, with a burned out, Unhappy Giant on the side.

[KaosDevice]

Well -that- was gloomy. Althought teen goth-Haley was pretty halarious.

[oogabooga]

Six pages and nobody has mentioned that we're still in suspense about the secret even V doesn't know? ;)

[HypnoticMonk]

This comic helps explains why I don't play good aligned rogues. The purpose of a rogue is to find and take items and information that don't belong to them. Such an evil can be necessary to combat a greater evil but what kind of character history could justify practicing such skills while being good?

ummm... a spy/secret agent? (typed in with the Mission Impossible theme playing in my head)

Go ahead and tell Ethan Hunt, Sam Fisher, James Bond, etc how evil they are.... I am sure they will appreciate it :)

Seriously, remember D&D and all similiar RPGs work in worlds with different moralities than the ones we have in this world. Paladins and good clerics (among other classes) gain experience points for killing and smiting evil beings. In our world, the same actions would eventually get you locked up in jail for life.

and btw, Rich, two times a week is fine. Do what you have to do. I get more pleasure from one of your strips than a whole week's worth of anyone else's.

[Suki_the_Pure]

Oh, this was SOOO sweet, and so worth waiting for! Great character development for Haley. She needs a hug. *sniffle*

[armatil]

totally awesome comic. the personification of self-loathing is more hilarious in practice than the idea of the concept itself.

let the kissing commence! :D

and even if it's twice a week rather than 3: keep up the great work. i'd rather have 2 strips a week than see the quality gradually go down. or see the giant work himself into an early grave...

[Torias]

By the way, does anyone know exactly why Haley's stray hair is on the opposite side of her face as that of her young and gloomy doppleganger? Maybe some kind of inverse perception type thing? Just a thought.

I noticed that too.

The eyebrow ring is also on the other side (as from what was seen in the flash back).

I believe it's cause this is Haley as she would see herself in a mirror. IE, in a land without photographs, the only image of yourself you'd ever see would be in the mirror, with the left / right swapped...

that was a VERY cool detail that he put in :)

[Veg Sorbet]

Haley is left handed?

Going by the way she's holding her bow in strip #1, she's right-handed (unless there's proof otherwise elsewhere - don't have the time to check right now.) I'm right-handed, yet eat with my fork in the "wrong" hand - dunno anything about chopsticks, though - have only come into contact with 'em once, and I wasn't eating with 'em then anyway...

I'm actually really glad of the 2-strip thing - I have a problem in terms of internet access, in that I can only get online properly whilst I'm away at university ('mazingly fast connection), so betweeen June and the end of September, I won't be able to get online much anyway, if at all, by which time it'll hopefully be back to 3 strips, and I'll have a huge backlog of strips to try to catch up on, which will be nice, as I'll be able to focus in lectures without my thoughts suddenly turning to the current cliffhanger. however, with only two strips it'll mean that there'll be slightly less to get through...

Anyway, enough of my random ramblings - nice strip.

However...

I have to agree with this particular sentiment...

KISS HIM ALREADY! ::)

One final point - good luck with the workload, Rich!

[garylian]

First of all, Goth Haley is a riot, with the eyebrow ring and the dyed hair with her roots showing. That was just brilliant.

Second, the whole conversation was very enlightening into Haley's whole persona.

All in all, one of the best comics you've done, Giant!

[LesserHellspawn]

Well, this comic brought me out of hiding, into posting.

Good Lord ! That news announcement sounds like an apology ! As if that was necessary. Any schedule is quite ok, and if time permits only two per week now, then it only allows two per week. Looking forward to 7 day posting in fall, but I won't cry either if it doesn't happen.

Poor Haley.... Elan can really be a dork at times.

[Andiri]

The purpose of a rogue is to find and take items and information that don't belong to them. Such an evil can be necessary to combat a greater evil but what kind of character history could justify practicing such skills while being good?
Not all good is lawful good. Taking something that doesn't belong to you isn't in itself evil. Taking something and so causing an innocent person to go without it usually is, of course, but not every victim is innocent. The typical CG would have little trouble from stealing from those who didn't "deserve" their wealth, anyone from slumlords who prey on the poor to tyrannical or corrupt rulers who use their power to syphon money into their own pockets. They would not see it as a compromise: rather, they'd see the paladin's willingness to defend the indefensible (just because society says they have a "right" to their ill-gotten gains) as a compromise.

I don't believe this applies to Haley, though. I think she is CN, not CG. She is too comfortable stealing from those who have done no wrong, starting with her own party. However, it isn't unreasonable (or even unusual) for a neutral character to feel guilty about not measuring up to some standard of good. She admires Elan's goodness, and feels unworthy of him because of that.

[rosebud]

As much as one wants and expects The Kiss, I was -- after initial disappointment (about ten seconds?) -- rather happy with that end panel since it doesn't take the easy way out. (And the relationship would/could be difficult. I still love the "I think 'rdjv' means 'salad' remark. And Elan eating.)

In a similar vein, I'm happy about the temporary two-a-week announcement. It should be a pleasure to do (whatever anyone else might say about jobs), and if it isn't fun to make, it isn't as fun to read. (And I hope there's a vacation and guest strips at some point. Everyone needs a vacation.)


And let me guess. . .Goth Haley's favorite band was Cure Light Wounds?It looks like just The Cure (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=93); Light Wounds seems to be the album name and the combination is the side joke.


Anyways, is there a way to get Haley to skip the self-loathing and get to the snogging?And then what? (Although the notion of Elan character development is somewhat amusing.)


I'm not sure why this seems to come off as more "genuine" dialogue than the Roy stuff last strip.#310 was word play and innuendo (from two people who like each other and are able to express it). #311 is internal dialog (for a relationship that is much older but has yet to reach that point).


see the giant work himself into an early grave...... Zombie cartoonists! Brilliant idea. Why didn't I think of that? :)

[raven-gm]

Oh, poor Haley...

Afraid of being hurt, so she hides, but now she can't tell Elan how she feels... :'(

[Toric]

Today's comic struck a special note for me. I know (in fact, I'm dating) a gal who has had very similar feelings as those discussed by the two Haleys. She's afraid of letting people know the "real her", because she thinks she's somehow broken as a person or - as The Giant so accurately put it - "not good enough." So she acts nice and sweet and sweeps the rough spots of her life - which help to define her as a person - under the carpet when meeting people, then feels increased self-loathing and shame because she feels like she's lying to people by presenting a false image of herself. It's a really tough cycle to break out of. Note that this psychological description can apply to either Haley or my friend up until very recently.

Anyway, enough rambling. Just wanted to share my appreciation for this particular comic.

[The Doctor]

And then what? (Although the notion of Elan character development is somewhat amusing.)


You mean, after the snogging?
You really have to ask?
Obviously we will have the two exploring and discovering each other, the development of a relationship based on true love and respect.

Btw - those who wonder about Haley's lock of hair and the eyebrow ring: I think that's just how the stickfigures are drawn when they are mirrored to look the other way...
Of course there could be a deeply hidden, psychological reason for it all... maybe I' m just too pragmatic ;)

[fithi]

Great comic, Giant.

And do what you need to, we'll cope on two comics a week.

[Rimmer]

Btw - those who wonder about Haley's lock of hair and the eyebrow ring: I think that's just how the stickfigures are drawn when they are mirrored to look the other way...
Of course there could be a deeply hidden, psychological reason for it all... maybe I' m just too pragmatic

Ah, you beat me to it, good sir.

Yeah I'm a complete git who does that every time someone tries to explain something graphical related. Though some instances I'll make longwinded explanations to contuinuity errors.

In the end I ignore mirrored images in comics and don't actually notice.

As I belive it was once said in Squidi: "It's a magic eyepatch."

[Eriol]

I just hope this schedule change will result in a re-instatement of the consistency of the comic. I really don't care when or how often, but rather it be consistent. Checking back every hour or so gets frustrating.

[Finwe]

Roy's shoes have been known to randomly switch feet between pannels at time. Perhaps the culprit is the same!

[warmachine]

ummm... a spy/secret agent? (typed in with the Mission Impossible theme playing in my head)

Go ahead and tell Ethan Hunt, Sam Fisher, James Bond, etc how evil they are.... I am sure they will appreciate it :)

Spy or secret agent has an even worse problem than criminal investigator: their paymaster would be even less happy with them leaving to become an active adventurer, rather than a semi-retired land owner, and inflitration requires thinking and behaviour like the enemy even more.

It's really a lack of artistic flexibility on my part. I cannot envisage a character who lies and steals for a living maintaining the ideal that this is wrong for a long time. I always got a poor grade in drama. I sympathise with Haley.

[Nekkira]

Very good strip, Giant. Good luck with all your ventures!!
We'll somehow survive on twoish comics a week. :)
Thanks!

[Suometar]

How about Robin Hood? He was a thief. :)

[Sol]

um wow. That was unexpected.

I never thought a webcomic would make me tear up a little.

Rich, this is one of the single (1.5?) best strips you have ever written. Thank you, and ignore any fans that don't understand the reason for the (temporary) cut back to 2 strips a week.

[fwiffo]

My issue is not about Haley, but about Elan. What the heck is wrong with him??! He is more clueless than usual.

Look at things from Elan's perspective. First, Haley drags you to a restaurant in #307, clearly wanting something, because she pre-empted what was going to be the team-wide dinner. Then she goes into a rather animated speech in #309. Sure, none of it is understandable, but it seems like Haley is talking to you a lot. And what is your reaction? You compliment the waitress as "pretty". And, seeing as how at that point Haley slumps on the table, looking all dejected, what do you do? You continue small talk just as Haley is slumping, looking miserable and unhappy; and then play with your chopsticks.

Elan is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, true, but how many times is he going to roll 1 on Sense Motive checks? Frankly, his sheer inability to sense what the other person is thinking or feeling make him a poor target of romantic affection. Does Haley want a partner who is that incapable of sensing what she is feeling? He is not good enough for her, not the other way around.

[Chupacabrabert]

A visit from my 15-year-old self? Scary!

This was just wonderful, Giant - as much as I want to see smoochies, this was a way better payoff. All hail introspection!

"I don't think I even knew what 'sophistry' meant when I was 15" cracked me up - even when you're maudlin, you're funny.

Poor Haley, though; I'm eager to find out more about all these people who left her. Bring on the catharsis and emotional well-being so she can have a nice happy romance! :)

And Mezaloth:

In a real relationship he'd get into a lot of trouble for not being able to see/sence/hear/feel/smell Haley's inner teenager. All women know that it is a mans duty/obligation to be psychic when it comes to how they feel, and what they are thinking.
Whoa... Did your subtext just accidentally become text?

[Baxder]

Here here, wiffo! I thought Elan was supposed to be all suave and skilled with the ladies, but he's turning out to be quite a disappointing courtier here. Maybe, (hopefully for Haley's sake), he's just saving it for the opportune moment...

[warmachine]

Not all good is lawful good. Taking something that doesn't belong to you isn't in itself evil. Taking something and so causing an innocent person to go without it usually is, of course, but not every victim is innocent. The typical CG would have little trouble from stealing from those who didn't "deserve" their wealth, anyone from slumlords who prey on the poor to tyrannical or corrupt rulers who use their power to syphon money into their own pockets. They would not see it as a compromise: rather, they'd see the paladin's willingness to defend the indefensible (just because society says they have a "right" to their ill-gotten gains) as a compromise.
If someone does not deserve their wealth (or information), then a good person does not have the right to keep it either. It is still denying from those who deserve it. Of course! A good person would give it back to the deserving. In cliched Robin Hood style.

Why didn't I think of this before? The Robin Hood legend comes from my country, for crying out loud. An excellent character history of why he is good, yet learnt to lie and steal so well, and became an adventurer to escape those he's angered. Robin Hood but more urban.

[snelson66]

Wow... angst, self-loathing... I feel so sorry for Haley and she's only a stick drawing!! Nice work there Giant. And, though you certainly don't need my permission, take the time you need.

[Melnor]

Uh-oh!
A serious comic! :o

EDIT: ish

[lunar]

My issue is not about Haley, but about Elan. What the heck is wrong with him??! He is more clueless than usual.

Look at things from Elan's perspective. First, Haley drags you to a restaurant in #307, clearly wanting something, because she pre-empted what was going to be the team-wide dinner. Then she goes into a rather animated speech in #309. Sure, none of it is understandable, but it seems like Haley is talking to you a lot. And what is your reaction? You compliment the waitress as "pretty". And, seeing as how at that point Haley slumps on the table, looking all dejected, what do you do? You continue small talk just as Haley is slumping, looking miserable and unhappy; and then play with your chopsticks.

Elan is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, true, but how many times is he going to roll 1 on Sense Motive checks? Frankly, his sheer inability to sense what the other person is thinking or feeling make him a poor target of romantic affection. Does Haley want a partner who is that incapable of sensing what she is feeling? He is not good enough for her, not the other way around.


Dude, I love your avatar! LOL

[Amaroq]

OMG, beautiful, Giant.

I'm sure that's an internal conversation many can relate to, and it'll be wonderful to see how Haley rises to the challenge.

Not sure why you thought two-per-week would be unpopular:
a.) Its what you used to have
b.) Anything which keeps you from burning out and lets you continue to bring your standard of quality and passion to the work is okay by me!

KUTGW!

[AzSteven]

Of course, the 15-year-old self-loathing personification of Haley would be a Goth Chick. Very good comic, and actually very touching when you think about this conversation she is having with herself.

And as for the change in publication schedule; I would have expected you need to slow down a bit as the convention season rears its ugly head, and I wasn't even thinking about the OOTS-goodies you are working on beyond the webcomic. Twice a week is good; I would rather the strip be twice or even once a week rather than see you burn out Giant.

[Priceless_Ming]

deliciously bittersweet.

I gotta tell you, I love Rich's "straight" shows more and more every issue.

Keep it up Giant. It's gold.

[Varian7]

Poor Haley! So that is her big secret, that she doesn't feel she is good enough, and is afaid of being heart-broken. May the smoothing commence soon!

And Rich, do what you need to do. We are all just grateful for OotS.

[captheather]

Yippee! I love Haley and Elan.

And thanks for the explanation. I now know to attempt to turn off the Mom worry gene. But I hope you will forgive me if it slips out. I think worrying is an at will ability. And we have to make will saves to not use the power. And even if we make the save, we're aware we had to make a save which forces another save.

Okay forget it, moms have to worry...

Mother's day is coming up, maybe I can get the worry gene temporarily removed!

[Winged One]

Aw...poor Haley...I think I might know what her secret is, too... :'(

[Psiwave]

- hugs hayley -

[ekedolphin]

Wow. Another great strip, but a really sad one, huh?

"I haven't told him because I'm not good enough, and everyone good and pure who gets close to me realizes that and leaves!"

Brought a tear to my eye, because really, who can't relate with that feeling? Rich may have touched upon the reason for everyone's insecurity when wanting to start a new relationship.

Brilliant, brilliant, BRILLIANT. And I must say the use of Mistress Shadowgale (only-before-seen in strip #93) to illustrate Haley's self-loathing was an inspired choice.

[TheLastOfTheFallen]

"I'm a rogue...hiding is my best skill"

I've felt many emotions reading this comic. Happyness, joy, anger, regret, frustration, and above all else humor. Never before have you made me sad, Giant. It was heartbreaking to read that line, especially considering some of the real life drama I've been dealing with lately. So thank you, Giant, for another genius strip.

[sugarmouse121]

Great comic Giant!!! I somehow sprained my ankle so I'm stuck at my computer, and this is the first thing that made me smile all weekend! :)

[TheWanderingLlama]

That's so sad. I wanna cry. Hopefully it will be funnier when I re-read it...

On a different note... WOOT! ninth page!

[Zaruthustran]

Character development ftw. Nice strip, The Giant. The last few strips have been a bit more poignant, and it's a refreshing change of pace. This whole Azure City caper seems to me to be that RP-filled bit that takes place while levelling between adventures.

Again: nice work!

Regarding the two-a-week plan: I support that decision 100%! You're growing a fantastic brand and have the attention of a whole lot of tabletop VIPs. This is your capital-s Shot. You've gotta take it. After you've achieved a certain level of success you can go back to maintaining the brand with three-a-week strips.

So take the time to produce top quality work on your projects. Don't get burned out. We don't mind, and best wishes!

[Thief-Wizard101]

Hiding is my best skill SWEET

[ghost]

I concur, by reducing to only 2 updates a week you will save the quality and funnyness of the comic...heh I said concur

[Barazon]

Heh, funny although slightly sad comic. Nice emotional development, especially considering they're stick figures. "Stop muscling in on my territory." Hehehe. I wonder though, is Haley speaking in gibberish, and her personification of self-loathing just understands it, and The Giant has kindly translated this one for us, or can she speak freely with it?

[Nasrudith]

Great double comic, shame about the cut back though. However it will save disapointment in the long run, and the daily updates to make up lost ground *drools*.

[Lilly]

I loved this one.

It hits a little too close to home though. Considering I have a tendency to personify my subconscious, have the self confidence of a lemming, and hide or run from problems.

Loved it.

On the two a week thing: Okay cool, whatever. We are simply zombie webcomic readers.

[TinSoldier]

Heh, funny although slightly sad comic. Nice emotional development, especially considering they're stick figures. "Stop muscling in on my territory." Hehehe. I wonder though, is Haley speaking in gibberish, and her personification of self-loathing just understands it, and The Giant has kindly translated this one for us, or can she speak freely with it?Umm. It's all happening inside her head. Think of it as an internal monologue.

We already know that she can think in plaintext.

[CannibalGnome]

Gah, the suspense!

Excellent comic!

[Evik]

Good comic Giant...Haley having a life crisis and Elan still blissfully ignorant of anything remotely resembling drama lol

and also Giant...you gotta do what ya gotta do!
so we will have to tighten our comedic belt for a few weeks....but it's not like we arnt still going to get our fix!....you get what you need to done and we'll be here when you are ready :D

[nick012000]

...

Did everyone else fail to notice that Haley seems to be stating that she's bisexual?

Hawt.

[Flak_Razorwill]

...

Did everyone else fail to notice that Haley seems to be stating that she's bisexual?

Hawt.

Well, the kissing comment from two strips ago could just be good ol' college experimentation. But for RACHEL...whoever that may be...that is another matter. Maybe just a good friend, maybe something more, but until the Giant throws us another heaping spoonful of truth, we're stuck.

I'm hoping Rachel is just a good friend. It'd seem kind of cliched to make the one pretty female member like that...and if the Giant hates anything (or makes fun of it), it's cliches.

EDIT: "Not like I'm against that kind of thing." - Durkon

[poptartmini]

...

Did everyone else fail to notice that Haley seems to be stating that she's bisexual?

Hawt.

Only if you are also saying that she's into incest. Both Rachel AND her mom left.

[Jannex]

Fantastic strip! I love, love, LOVE character development! Poor Haley; and really, who of us hasn't been there? Well, it looks like things are starting to move in the right romantic direction, which is a happy. C'mon, Haley and Elan! ;)

And Giant, no worries about the temporary cutback on strips-per-week; life happens. I just hope that the lightened comic workload makes your overall schedule less crazy-making. Good luck!

[little_earthquake]

I just reread it and wanted to say I really really love the expression on her face when she says "It's worked so far"

I know that expression just too well, it's very adequately drawn. Half-hearted resistance to her despair, I'd call it.

[BlythraB]

okay, so just so you understand guys, the line under my avatar is an ongoing argument with a friend of mine. I think that this:

I know I'll still be in your zombie webcomic reader army.

totally proves I'm right.
On to things that won't get the thread locked:
This comic made my day!
Also, Rich, I'm sure you are sick of hearing it, but all of your worshipping fans will be okay if we take a few less comics in for a while, especially with all of the double length strips we had for so long during the trial.

[A_Gray_Phantom]

Oh yeah, this was funny. Did everyone notice that Haley was left-handed? To continue with the Oriental theme, they are eating with chopsticks, and not forks. I'm surprised that Elan was able to figure out the complexities of chopsticks, though. I'm Chinese, and even I can't get 'em to work :'(. I swear, I'd starve to death if I went over to Asia :o.

Does anyone know who won the battle between the salt and pepper shakers? That would be the coolest bonus comic ever! They'd be all fighting "Matrix style" and go HIYA! YEOW WAH NA NA NA!! And Pepper would be all ninja like, 'cause he's all dressed in black, and throw pepper bombs. And Salt would either be like a divine spellcaster, or a samurai. (Why, cause salt is white and white=divine spellcaster ::), and you could totally use the 'salt of the earth' line, and this also reminds me of when Samurai Jack fought the ninja...) Or heck, go the Miko route and put Salt in the Paladin class.

Ooh, I smell a spin-off ;D. Oh Giant, you think that when OOtS is over, your next project can be "The Adventures of Salt & Pepper!"? It would be cool, cause like, they are sworn enemies, but put them together and they're an unstoppable team!

...What were we talking about again?

[xyzchyx]

I think it's safe to say that many adults come to eventually realize that they were actually complete idiots when they were teenagers. And in light of that, don't you think it's rather odd that her teenage self is giving her advice? I sure know now that I wouldn't listen to the advice my 15 year old self would give me... I thought I knew everything I ever needed to know back then. Boy, was I wrong!

[Eriol]

I think it's safe to say that many adults come to eventually realize that they were actually complete idiots when they were teenagers. And in light of that, don't you think it's rather odd that her teenage self is giving her advice? I sure know now that I wouldn't listen to the advice my 15 year old self would give me... I thought I knew everything I ever needed to know back then. Boy, was I wrong!
Too soon you grow old,
Too late you grow smart!

[munehiro]

Does Haley want a partner who is that incapable of sensing what she is feeling? He is not good enough for her, not the other way around.

probably, Haley fell in love of Elan by virtue of something the plot still has to expose completely. At risk to issue a spoiler warning, maybe Elan has or is something that Haley consider more important than having someone being capable of sensing what she is feeling.

[Eriol]

probably, Haley fell in love of Elan by virtue of something the plot still has to expose completely. At risk to issue a spoiler warning, maybe Elan has or is something that Haley consider more important than having someone being capable of sensing what she is feeling.
Are you implying that because he "uses it so masterfully (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=28)" that's all she needs?

;)

[Gothmaug]

Giant, great job as always. Sorry to hear about the new schedule, but *shrug* them's the breaks. I'll be looking forward to more shenanagins. Keep up the good work, don't get burnt out 8)

Gothmaug

<--Hey my first post ever. Great, Im a "Pixie" :P Couldn't i be something small but less annoying, like a Jermaline perhaps? ;D
-JK-

[Wrecan]

Haley fell in love with Elan because he is about the sweetest, most innocent, good-hearted person you could ever meet. And she desperately wants someone good, because it would confirm that she is worthy of being loved by someone of good heart.

And for some, that is worth living with a person with a penalty on Sense Motive.

Plus, 18 Charisma is apparently, in fact, worth something "under the hood"

[EscherEnigma]

I think it's safe to say that many adults come to eventually realize that they were actually complete idiots when they were teenagers. And in light of that, don't you think it's rather odd that her teenage self is giving her advice?

well, not really odd. Think about it, it's not her 15 year old self talking to her, but the imaginary personification of her self-loathing. It just LOOKS like she did when she was 15. But it's still 24 year old Haley.

Sides, if you were the imaginary personification of a personality trait, and you could choose what you looked like, would you rather look as old as you really are or as young as you wish you still were.

[5tephen]

So nice to hear Hayley's voice again!

(I know this doesn't make sense... on any level now that I think about it... but that was one of my first reactions.)

Glad Rich is O.K, sorry that he is under so much pressure, understand entirely, still love OOTS.

I guess, Rich, that you didn't so much as quit your day job, as slide sideways into another one: Full time contract writer. I know how hard that gig is- my wife is one, and I used to be a FT contract Assistant Director.

Concentrate on the paid work mate- you'll get through.

[Terraxos]

Nice comic. A slightly different tone from usual, which made these lines come to mind:

"Geez! We were a lot safer when we just made fairly obvious jokes about the rules!"
"I blame Cerebus."

Of course, OOTS still does make fairly obvious jokes about the rules (see the previous strip), but mixed in with plot, drama and character development like in this one, which is what makes it so good. This one did a brilliant job of filling out Haley's character (which, now I think about it, we haven't known a great deal about until recently), was surprisingly sad, and still managed to include the odd funny line as well. Good job.

Still somewhat annoying that we don't get to find out what Haley's secret is yet, though! But of course, the waiting and wondering is what makes that so fun... :)

We're gradually beginning to see what Haley meant when she told Roy "if you put all the stuff you didn't know about me together, it would get a -16 size penalty to AC". That girl really does have a lot of deep secrets, doesn't she? Let's just hope she'll be able to share them with Elan sometime soon, because this comic is going to get way too depressing even for me otherwise.

ADDED: Oh, and twice-a-week updates is fine by me as well. This comic could update once a week, or even less, and I'd still read it. Just put them up as often as you can, and I'll keep reading them!

[Felinoid]

Not really one of the best, but that's just for me. Haley's getting excellent advise from her other self, and is too scared to take it, which grates on my nerves as I've known too many people like that (including myself). Suck it up and just kiss him already! It won't take but a moment of determination to get it started, and then you're stuck with going through with it. Urgh, how I hate these things. >:(

RE: Two updates a week.
I understand why the Giant felt he had to apologize (for failing to meet imagined expectations of three a week), but I'll join the rest in saying that you haven't disappointed at all. You still give us more than we could hope for or deserve. :)

[ElfLad]

If we're going bi-weekly, I'd prefer a Monday-Thursday schedule, as it's more evenly spaced.

Good luck with the work, Giant.

[The Glitter Ninja]

Aw. Today's episode (strip? segment?) was sweet. I especially liked the drawing of Elan chowing down, the way his mouth is drawn works really well. Goth Haley cracked me up, especially the red roots in her hair.

Thanks for not nuking the site from orbit after seeing everyone panic when they didn't get their Friday strip. Good luck with the busy summer schedule.

[warmachine]

My theory is that Haley is using the dilemma of telling Elan she loves him to hide a more desperate dilemma from herself. Her loss of speech was triggered by the loss of the dragon loot. She knows it's very unlikely she'll see that kind of money anytime soon and time is running out to save her father. It is the really deep crises that cause mental illness and hullicinations.

Previously, Haley committed burglary on her own with the Thieves Guild as fences, none of whom she could trust. With little prospect of buying her father's life on her own, her only hope is to ask the rest of the party for help. But she would have to show a vulnerability to two Lawful Good characters who would judge her and an evil sadist who exploit it for his own amusement. A leap of faith too far for a lone wolf.

Better to show a minor weakness to distract others from the real weakness. Better to be stuck at a minor dilemma than to face an unbearable one.

[Serina_Spellbinder]

yeah. I simply love it.
And someone's already said it, me too I had to think of Babylon 5. Not only the Ivanova thing, but also Stephen meeting himself.

Well.. really cool.

And I think everyone will be ok with the twice-per-week-rythm, since you offer this comic as a present for us, so we're thankful, Giant.

Funny, I thought of Mr. Garrison meeting his gay side on the mountaintop on South Park.

[Serina_Spellbinder]

Not all good is lawful good. Taking something that doesn't belong to you isn't in itself evil. Taking something and so causing an innocent person to go without it usually is, of course, but not every victim is innocent. The typical CG would have little trouble from stealing from those who didn't "deserve" their wealth, anyone from slumlords who prey on the poor to tyrannical or corrupt rulers who use their power to syphon money into their own pockets. They would not see it as a compromise: rather, they'd see the paladin's willingness to defend the indefensible (just because society says they have a "right" to their ill-gotten gains) as a compromise.

I don't believe this applies to Haley, though. I think she is CN, not CG. She is too comfortable stealing from those who have done no wrong, starting with her own party. However, it isn't unreasonable (or even unusual) for a neutral character to feel guilty about not measuring up to some standard of good. She admires Elan's goodness, and feels unworthy of him because of that.




Word. In the Player's Handbook, it mentions the elf ranger Soveliss, who waylays the evil baron's tax collectors and is Chaotic Good.

[BlythraB]

I suppose Elan saying "Sir Francois" in the first panel answers a question someone asked ages ago about who Elan learned from (when he's teaching the party to ride horses) and worked for first
Chaio!

[FreeloadingSausage]

Dude, G-Man, do what you gotsta! I'll be looking forward to OotS whether it's once in a blue moon, or eight days a week!

Great strip, but now it begs the inevitable discussion thread:

Who is hotter, Haley, or imaginary self-loathing Haley?

[Nerd-o-rama]

I suppose Elan saying "Sir Francois" in the first panel answers a question someone asked ages ago about who Elan learned from (when he's teaching the party to ride horses) and worked for first
Chaio!
Yep. Elan's adventures with Francois, or at least the end of them, are detailed in On the Origin of PCs. Although, Elan implies that there were several other Mighty Knights he could have learned from...

[Nightfall]

This strip is positively outstanding! I think it's one of the best ones Rich has ever done! Kudos to you, Giant! Excellent work! :)

[Amotis]

Nice comic :) It's one I can show to half-gamers ;)
Oh, and I'm sure we can all live with 2/week. ::) It's fine.

[Finwe]

Question (probably a stupid one). Is this friday's comic late, or today's comic?

[Athelis]

I happen to love when something rather irrelevant that was brought up earlier is not forgotten but instead comes back as something huge. Good Job Rich.

[TachoWarrior]

First time poster, (and as everybody says) long time reader...

touching on an earlier point, I believe this comic could count for both Friday and Monday because it is extra long...

[zzyss]

Hi Giant,

I just wanted to say that despite your hectic work schedule, the quality of OotS has not dropped one bit, and it's just as excellent as ever! I have "Origins of PCs" on order from Amazon, and I look forward to continuing to support you and your work.

Keep it up! All your fans are right here behind you.


- zzyss

[vampeel]

I like how no hardcore story line goes by (much like my real DnD games :-/ ) and people enjoy the comic.

Great to see deep story line about characters.

Not sure if I like where this is going, image hot dwarf on dwarf, yuck, not again.

[n11]

Question (probably a stupid one). Is this friday's comic late, or today's comic?

Check out the news (http://www.giantitp.com/index.html).

[Finwe]

Check out the news (http://www.giantitp.com/index.html).



Huh, I never noticed that. But what's this news page everyone keeps talking about?

[Aidan305]

Brilliant comic. Exactly the reason I thought behind her not regaining her speech. Great to see Dark Mistress Shadowgale again aswell.

[Eriol]

Yep. Elan's adventures with Francois, or at least the end of them, are detailed in On the Origin of PCs. Although, Elan implies that there were several other Mighty Knights he could have learned from...
"Awww, not again!"

;)

[Holy_Knight]

Awww, poor Haley! :'(

I hope she's able to see past her poor self-image soon. There's no doubt in my mind that Elan would.

Giant, great job once again. The strip was extra funny to me (besides being really sad, of course) for several reasons. I thought it was really fitting to use Haley's teenage self to be her self-loathing, which made her explanation of that all the funnier. Then I was thinking how great a word choice "sophistry" was, which made Haley's comment about that all the funnier! (It was also especially funny to me, since I'm a philosopher.) You have also once again done a superb job of conveying emotion and character depth. :)

On a side note, another interesting thing about this strip is that while Elan is oblivious to why Haley is upset, he probably would have instantly understood what was going on with the "personification of self-loathing", which Haley had to have explained to her.


My issue is not about Haley, but about Elan. What the heck is wrong with him??! He is more clueless than usual.

Look at things from Elan's perspective. First, Haley drags you to a restaurant in #307, clearly wanting something, because she pre-empted what was going to be the team-wide dinner. Then she goes into a rather animated speech in #309. Sure, none of it is understandable, but it seems like Haley is talking to you a lot. And what is your reaction? You compliment the waitress as "pretty". And, seeing as how at that point Haley slumps on the table, looking all dejected, what do you do? You continue small talk just as Haley is slumping, looking miserable and unhappy; and then play with your chopsticks.

Elan is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, true, but how many times is he going to roll 1 on Sense Motive checks? Frankly, his sheer inability to sense what the other person is thinking or feeling make him a poor target of romantic affection. Does Haley want a partner who is that incapable of sensing what she is feeling? He is not good enough for her, not the other way around.
I sort of thought the same thing at first, but after thinking about it I think you're being a little too hard on Elan. He is capable of seeing when Haley is upset (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=284), and can even be pretty sensitive (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=246) about it. What he's notoriously bad at is knowing why (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=161) she's upset. I imagine that Elan probably assumes that she's upset just because she's frustrated at not being able to talk, which would also sort of make sense since she was clearly trying so hard to say something. So, he's trying to help her have a good time anyway, by being cheerful and acting like nothing's wrong. If that's true, then even if he is clueless about the reason Haley's upset, he may still be sensitive to her feelings in his own way, and is just attempting to make her feel better, as misguided as that attempt may be.


This comic helps explains why I don't play good aligned rogues. The purpose of a rogue is to find and take items and information that don't belong to them. Such an evil can be necessary to combat a greater evil but what kind of character history could justify practicing such skills while being good?
Well, I've practiced those sorts of things in real life, despite being a good person. The first lock I ever picked was the door to a church library--I was bored and wanted something to read. I've never stolen a dime, nor would I, but that doesn't mean I have no use for such skills. Other rogue-type skills have non-evil uses too, for things like birdwatching, finding out information, game playing (like hide and go seek), and hand to hand combat. I think it's a mistake to assume that rogue skills are inherently evil or even inherently related to stealing, which is probably part of the reason they changed the class name to "rogue" from "thief".

[ref]

OK on 2 per week if the alternative is poor quality, or 0 per week.

One little thing that is nagging me, though, is why didn't you move the 2nd one to Thursdays? It's not a complaint or anything, just out of sheer curiosity...
Mon-Thu would get the comics more spaced and thus there'd be less pressure, I think. Though I may not know some detail about your life that makes Thursdays unbearable... (OK, Mon-Thu would also slightly alleviate the fact that us OotSers will now be caught in five days long cliffhangers :P)

[n11]

I posted this idea in a different thread, but since the question came up here, I'll just mention that the attraction of the current format might be giving himself large blocks of time for working on projects or travel.

You could also wait an extra day before reading the midweek comic, but I'll admit I would fail my will save to succeed at doing this.

To get back on topic:
Do you suppose we will see Celia and Roy arriving at the next booth in the next comic?

[Kish]

This comic helps explains why I don't play good aligned rogues. The purpose of a rogue is to find and take items and information that don't belong to them.
Sigh. No. The purpose of a rogue, like every other adventuring class, is to adventure. What's to justify? There is no class that has a skill set more obviously designed for adventuring (the only class most people view as more essential for an adventuring party is "some kind of healer," and that can be a cleric or a druid).

I certainly hope you also don't play good aligned fighters.

[The Giant]

I posted this idea in a different thread, but since the question came up here, I'll just mention that the attraction of the current format might be giving himself large blocks of time for working on projects or travel.

This is exactly correct. Also, all of the summer conventions are Thursday through Sunday, so a Wednesday comic would allow me to be done for the week before the con opens and not have to draw a new one until the con ended.

[gnownek]

I know why the fighter likes Elan. The fighter thought Elan was great because he worked with such a mighty knight and thought a bard with that track record - would lead to him getting great renown. Which would lead to some validation so he could talk back to his dad.

I know why Haley likes Elan. She thinks he's stupid enough to put up with her self-perceived low self-worth.

For stick figures these guys are deep!

P.s. Durkon's "what does being happy to do with it, I'm a dwarf", Elan's "of course I seduced her, I'm a bard" and the halfling's "evil and proud of it" are even more deep.

[The_Librarian]

Ah the inner teen, does she ever really go away? I really loved the imagery :) As for the updates... *hugs* Gonna take more than that to get rid of us, The Giant!

[NovaNightmare]

Ah the inner teen, does she ever really go away? I really loved the imagery :) As for the updates... *hugs* Gonna take more than that to get rid of us, The Giant!


Truth!

great comic, as usual!

[CelestialStick]

By the way, does anyone know exactly why Haley's stray hair is on the opposite side of her face as that of her young and gloomy doppleganger? Maybe some kind of inverse perception type thing? Just a thought.

I noticed that myself. I suppose it could represent the metaphor of looking at herself in the mirror.

[Trog]

Well I'm glad to that I'm not the only one whose personification of self loathing is goth. Whew! I feel better.

As far as no comics on Friday, no problem. We'll all just visit the site to to play Stabbity Death!

I HEREBY DECLARE FRIDAYS TO BE STABBITY DEATH DAY! Show your support for Rich and stab one of his devout readers/posters! Woot!

[Illyan]

That was one of the best delivered lines in this whole comic. 2 thumbs up rich. And Yeah, 2 updates a weeks sucks but it will still be fine, and we get the bonus of new books etc.

[saraswati]

Yay! The return of Goth Haley! Although there was no trademark utterance of "Life is Pain", I still enjoyed it.

As long as Haley gets up her gumption and actually kisses Elan sometime in the near future, I am able to see #311 as a well-written romp through character exposition land. However, if Haley never kisses Elan, I will be forced to agree with previous poster that this is the 2nd.saddest.comic.ever. Wah! Pre-emptive crying!

As for the new posting schedule, I and 10 thousand other rabid OOTS fans are pretty much a black hole of constant need for OOTS. If I could bend reality to my will, a new OOTS would be posted every 5 minutes. Since that is the case, Rich should just make OOTS whenever it works for him, as it is physically impossible to provide enough OOTS to satiate us. Those of us suffering withdrawl symptoms can just obsessively read and re-read the books ;)

So, maybe this is in the "what Haley's not.." thread, but does anyone have any theories on the fact that the unfinished sentence was never actually finished?

Just curious.

[Ravens_Wing]

Great comic!

poor haley talking to the voices in her head... well i dont know about anyone else but i sure can relate.

as for the two updates a week i will restate what has already been said Two updates are a heck of a lot better than none

and finally to Haley..KISS HIM ALREADY!!!

lol but seriously great strip!

[Nighthawk4]

Poor Haley - that is really sad. :'(


Go for it girl - kiss him. He is too shy to kiss you as well. One of you has to make the first move. You started well with dragging him off out for a meal. Don't waste the opportunity. If Roy can do it, so can you. :D


Great strip by the way. Haley is great. ;)

[Messenger]

That was the most painfully beautiful strip and internal dialogue (monologue?) I have seen in a long time... :-[ It's so sublime and meaningful.

(And I mean "painful" in a very good way.)

Giant, I am impressed- and that is an understatement.

With the previous strip, you showed you could go into something nice and romantic (geeky- but that was also a good thing), and now you show you can do something heartfelt and serious.

OotS has grown beyond what was already a very witty and entertaining webcomic into a real work. Bravo. ;)

Please keep it up. :)

[neriana]

Just wanted to say that this is my favorite strip yet. It's not as funny as a lot of others, but it is so meaningful and true. And thank you so much for writing a female character with a complex inner life. The strip just gets better all the time. It really is a lot more than a comic strip now.

[Tallarn]

I was inspired to register and post by this strip. Excellent stuff!

And I'll add my support to "You just put up strips whenever you can and we'll read them and be grateful".

[CelestialStick]

well, not really odd. Think about it, it's not her 15 year old self talking to her, but the imaginary personification of her self-loathing. It just LOOKS like she did when she was 15. But it's still 24 year old Haley.

Sides, if you were the imaginary personification of a personality trait, and you could choose what you looked like, would you rather look as old as you really are or as young as you wish you still were.

Bah! You couldn't pay me to be or even look 15 again. I would, on the other hand, pay good money to be or look 30 again. ;D

[Adolfo]

This strip pulled me out of lurking and posting, very meaning full as a person.

I have the same problem myself as Haley now, 'cept that I only stammer/stutter only. :-[

Who knows? It could just be because I didn't dare to talk to her. ;)

[CelestialStick]

Only if you are also saying that she's into incest. Both Rachel AND her mom left.

I got the impression that Rachel is her sister. It's just an impression though.

[KayJay]

Wow, OOTS is getting very deep on us all of a sudden :)
Sorry to hear about the temporary cutback down to 2 strips a week, but we all know how to fix this- to buy the merchandise! :) I think I'll try to squeeze at least one of the books into my budget if I can.

[The Doctor]

I noticed that myself. I suppose it could represent the metaphor of looking at herself in the mirror.

Oh, by Rastalion's Rod...
Look:

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=284

Haley looks to the left - hair is to the right of her face. Haley looks to the right, hair is on the left.
The girl is not looking in a pscho-mirror. Neither is she'left-handed' or 'rgiht-handed'. She is 'stick-figure-handed'.

Come on, let's not waste my brief attention span on that stuff...
Let's instead focus on this Rachel gal... that's something worth overanalyzing! I mean... does she sound hot or what?

[Gnorosch]

This one was a truly great strip. :)

[Torias]

Oh, by Rastalion's Rod...
Look:

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=284

Haley looks to the left - hair is to the right of her face. Haley looks to the right, hair is on the left.
The girl is not looking in a pscho-mirror. Neither is she'left-handed' or 'rgiht-handed'. She is 'stick-figure-handed'.

Come on, let's not waste my brief attention span on that stuff...
Let's instead focus on this Rachel gal... that's something worth overanalyzing! I mean... does she sound hot or what?



Well, I only have one thing to say:

Her eyebrow ring is on the left side in the flash back in comic 93,
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=93

but it's on the right hand side here...

and it's possible that haley has TWO errant strands of hair, one on either side....

nyah! :P

It's possible Goth Hailey has two eyebrow rings, one in each side... but I think it's more common to have just the one :)

[tyr]

You know, piquant statements, like the one about the hide check, always seem to be more powerful in works of comedy.

Like in Red vs. Blue season 1 when the tank blows up and says (in fading-robot voice) "I'm scared to die. Will I dream?" Similar to Hamlet's "But what dreams may come...?"

EDIT: People say this is the second saddest strip. What was the first saddest?

[CelestialStick]

Oh, by Rastalion's Rod...
Look:

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=284

Haley looks to the left - hair is to the right of her face. Haley looks to the right, hair is on the left.
The girl is not looking in a pscho-mirror. Neither is she'left-handed' or 'rgiht-handed'. She is 'stick-figure-handed'.

Come on, let's not waste my brief attention span on that stuff...
Let's instead focus on this Rachel gal... that's something worth overanalyzing! I mean... does she sound hot or what?


You're right about the hair. You've very observant.

The only thing we know about Rachel is that she left.

[Grunjon]

Oh, by Rastalion's Rod...
Look:

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=284

Haley looks to the left - hair is to the right of her face. Haley looks to the right, hair is on the left.
The girl is not looking in a pscho-mirror. Neither is she'left-handed' or 'rgiht-handed'. She is 'stick-figure-handed'.

Come on, let's not waste my brief attention span on that stuff...
Let's instead focus on this Rachel gal... that's something worth overanalyzing! I mean... does she sound hot or what?

Here's another one where Haley's stray lock(s) of hair are demonstrated to be seen on either side of her face:

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=116


And while the eyebrow ring tends to be a one-sided thing, true, I have indeed met people with the rings on both sides.

In the end, the poster quoted above is right about the mirroring thing: blow it off. It's not important.


Hey, I see a couple of references in this thread to Elan playing with chopsticks. Can someone tell me where he does that? I see him EATING with the chopsticks in the newest comic (311), and he doesn't touch them the last time we saw him at the table with Haley (309, where he's playing with the Salt and Pepper shakers but not the chopsticks). So where is he "playing" with them?

[ref]

This is exactly correct. Also, all of the summer conventions are Thursday through Sunday, so a Wednesday comic would allow me to be done for the week before the con opens and not have to draw a new one until the con ended.

Ah, makes sense. Thanks. 8)

[WTFWWD]

Good job Giant!

Another excellent strip! When she said "But Hide is my greatest skill" I called foul though. Is not Sleight of Hand her best skill? She can steal Elan's heart!

...As I equate most weekly things to games, and with those most DMs burn out doing it once a week. Thrice a week seems to be even to much for a giant, and rightly so. Worry not! We will enjoy the twice a week comics, and toast to your health!

[Flak_Razorwill]

Oops. Double post.

[Flak_Razorwill]

EDIT: People say this is the second saddest strip. What was the first saddest?

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=84

Yep, that's Oscar stuff there.

[UtherSRG]

Actually it appears that she has shrunk a bit in the, um, upper region. Did anyone else notice? ;D

:)
I did, and was wondering if anyone else did. But if you really compare, her current-day outfit is of a slightly higher cut than her teenage outfit. (See also #93.)

[UtherSRG]

A rogue can either be true to his own beliefs and be neutral or evil, or be good but compromise his own moral standards.

I would say Robin Hood is good, without compromising his own moral standards. In fact, it's those very moral standards which push him to steal from the rich an dgive to the poor, in order to right the wrongs done by the rich on the poor.

[UtherSRG]

Going by the way she's holding her bow in strip #1, she's right-handed (unless there's proof otherwise elsewhere - don't have the time to check right now.)

Heck, she's a Rogue. Maybe she took Ambidexterity as a Feat.

[Jack Squat]

I'll point out that my dad is left handed, yet he does everything besides eat and write with his right hand. He says it's just more comfortable.

[Baxder]

First off, let me just throw my 2cp in with everyone else who is completely awed at this installment. I really think this strip took the series to a whole new level, and it is in that light I make my next point...



EDIT: People say this is the second saddest strip. What was the first saddest?



http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=84

Yep, that's Oscar stuff there.


Yes, that was a sad strip, but I think this one beats it on the tear-jerk-o-meter. It does for me at least.

Durkon's sadness was easily blamed on someone else and their immorality according to his beliefs. In other words, his pain was caused by external events to which he could assign blame. Haley's problem is internal, and can only be blamed on herself.
What's more, her issue is affecting her so deeply she can't even speak. While Durkon may have lasting angst over his encounter, I don't think it will ever take the toll on him that Haley is facing and I'm sure he will someday get over it with comparitavely little internal strife.
And for me, internal struggles are always infinately more painful and difficult than external, and Durkon's was the latter. Thus Haley's struggle strikes a greater chord in me than Durkon's did.

I guess all that is to say that this strip has my vote for just plain....

Saddest. Comic. Ever.

EDIT: Added Tyr's quote for clarification.

[Arazvill]

Other probable favourite bands of Haley's goth/wave alter ego:

Alloy Division
A. R. Cane Mark
Banshees and Sushi
Baumhaus
Bigby’s Killing Joke
Cockatrice Twins
Dire Wolfsheim
Drows of Avalon
Feeble Minds
Leomund’s Icehouse
Mödrönhëäd
Monk Order
New Kobold Army
Pest Department
Project Image Ltd.
Psionic Youth
Swanships
Talking Meads
The Dwarven Smiths
The Quest
Thin White Rope Trick
This Immortal Soul
Tunnel Legion
Undead Can Dance

[UtherSRG]

Other probable favourite bands of Haley's goth/wave alter ego:

I've always thought "Under the Radical" would be a good goth/rock/puck band name... but now I'm straying off topic....

[Doug_Lampert]

Bah! You couldn't pay me to be or even look 15 again. I would, on the other hand, pay good money to be or look 30 again. ;DI remember being 15. I remember being told what to do by the government, my parents, and any adult who felt the urge. I remember considering sub-minimum wage good pay. I remember not being able to drive a car. I remember standing for 10 minuites in front of a cash register, with goods and money in hand, and having the two clerks with no other costomers ignore me. After five minutes an adult walks up, with something cheaper to purchase than what I'm buying, they serve her first, and this was in no way notable or unusual. The offensive case that sticks in my memory is the one when AFTER they have served her they go back to chatting and still don't serve me.

If I go to a clothing store with my neice, who buys or makes all her own clothes, and hang back where the clerks can't see she's "with" an adult I can still see the same sort of behavior applied to someone else, and it still sucks.

I note that sexy 15-17 year olds on TV and in movies are consistently played by 25+ year old actors and actresses. For most people 15 doesn't actually look that good, not even to other 15 year olds.

I wouldn't pay to look 30, I haven't changed appearance much, but if I could be that physical condition with as many years of good health in front of me as when I was 30. Absolutely.

[Zeekar]

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=84

Yep, that's Oscar stuff there.

Hm. "Haven't had a decent mug of lager in 5 years".
Only 5? Does that mean he managed to find some decent beer in human lands? Inconceivable! :)

[TinSoldier]

Hm. "Haven't had a decent mug of lager in 5 years".
Only 5? Does that mean he managed to find some decent beer in human lands? Inconceivable! :)

Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. ;D

[n11]

Hm. "Haven't had a decent mug of lager in 5 years".
Only 5? Does that mean he managed to find some decent beer in human lands? Inconceivable! :)



I think he spent some time making his own brew, but when he ran out of money, he had to start adventuring. Humans aren't used to dwarven brews, so he could not make a living at it. :)

[Zann]

Well, fun though it is, maybe we should stop picking at Zeekars faults.

I'm sorry to say this, but the punchline of this strip lacked the 'punch' (hehe) of pretty much every other strip there. a bit of a let-down, I'm sorry to say.

[Flak_Razorwill]

Hm. "Haven't had a decent mug of lager in 5 years".
Only 5? Does that mean he managed to find some decent beer in human lands? Inconceivable! :)



I will quote two words from Origins.

"Moose urine."

That is all.

[saraswati]

Other probable favourite bands of Haley's goth/wave alter ego:

Alloy Division
.... {etc}


Arazvil, stop sneaking into my house and raiding my CD 's !

[Sabishii_Kouen]

Well, fun though it is, maybe we should stop picking at Zeekars faults.

I'm sorry to say this, but the punchline of this strip lacked the 'punch' (hehe) of pretty much every other strip there. a bit of a let-down, I'm sorry to say.

The point of this particular comic is not to be funny, the point was for some back story, character development, and emotion. They all can't leave us rolling on the floor laughing. That'd be a gag a strip comic, but OotS actually has a plot.

I liked this strip, good character development.

[Zeekar]

Well, fun though it is, maybe we should stop picking at Zeekars faults.

Hm? Were people picking at my faults? Huh?

I'm confused. If people were picking at me, I completely missed it, so I'll just sit here like Elan and play with my puppets.

And the "moose urine" was sort of my point. We know from OtOoPCs and #305 that Durkon was cast out of his homeland almost 18 years ago. But in #93, which must have taken place at most a year ago in OOTS time, he made the comment about not having had a decent lager in 5 years. So somewhere, seven years after the start of his exile, he found a decent lager. The question is, where? It would be unlikely to be anywhere in Human lands, given his stated opinion of what was claimed to be the finest ale therein...

[TinSoldier]

I know I wasn't picking on you Zeekar. I just decided to post movie quote because you said "Inconceivable!"

Otherwise, yeah, I wonder how Durkon got any good beer or ale since he's been away from home for 17 years. Unless he was able to find some Dwarven Beer here or there during his travels.

[rebellioussong]

Wow tht is actually really deep and slightly depressing. How sdo you know what it feels like to be a teenage girl?

[Serina_Spellbinder]

Other probable favourite bands of Haley's goth/wave alter ego:

Alloy Division
A. R. Cane Mark
Banshees and Sushi
Baumhaus
Bigby’s Killing Joke
Cockatrice Twins
Dire Wolfsheim
Drows of Avalon
Feeble Minds
Leomund’s Icehouse
Mödrönhëäd
Monk Order
New Kobold Army
Pest Department
Project Image Ltd.
Psionic Youth
Swanships
Talking Meads
The Dwarven Smiths
The Quest
Thin White Rope Trick
This Immortal Soul
Tunnel Legion
Undead Can Dance


LOL!! I loved Psionic Youth, The Dwarven Smiths, and Undead Can Dance. Very funny. :)

[WarriorTribble]

Zeekar, I guess one of two things could have happened. He after years of searching finds a brewer (possibly non human) who doesn't invoke piss flavor in the booz, or a high level wizard/DM takes pity on him and wishes some into existence.

[BlythraB]

I got the impression that Rachel is her sister. It's just an impression though.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking... sister, cousin, friend, niece... the possibilities are a very long list

As to Durkon's beer, WHY does it matter? I seriously doubt that Rich will do a flashback to the secretly evil brewer who poisoned Durkon with his dwarven beer. If we don't stay on topic, the thread will probably get locked.

Another topic entirely:
*I* think that hayley's big secret WAS that she didn't think she was good enough for people.
"I'm not exactly what you'd call- good enough for society" or something to that effect
P.S. sorry about sounding grumpy guys

[WarriorTribble]

Another topic entirely:
*I* think that hayley's big secret WAS that she didn't think she was good enough for people.
"I'm not exactly what you'd call- good enough for society" or something to that effect
P.S. sorry about sounding grumpy guysHmm that would explain her ditzy, almost apathetic facade in parts of the comic. Still it sounds more like something one has to admit to themselves then their peers imo. Not to mention Elan weill remain clueless for another 50+ strips in that case. :)

[theswarm]

Elan is still oblivious, as always. Best part, if you ask me

[Starla]

By the way Darren Leafsword. He sounds like a pretty exciting guy LOL. I can just picture his weapon. He could scare Durkon and an ant. ;D

[Messenger]

I don't think Haley's problems are merely romantic (ie. I somewhat disagree with the incest and bisexual readings). I'd say she's got problems with her relationships on all levels.

Mom -> love/relationship with a family member
Rachel -> I'm guessing a friend of some sort, platonic love/relationship- a friend or best friend?
Kyran -> assuming a guy, then another instance of failed romantic love/relationship; otherwise same as Rachel

Honestly, I've got nothing to say that it's neither incestuous and bisexual, but to limit it to just romantic and sexual problems is kinda shallow.

For Haley to actually have problems with practically all the people that have been meaningful to her and her life at one point or another makes for great drama. I mean, this strip did pull our heartstrings, didn't it?

It makes Haley one helluva deep and complex character. She's got problems. She's an excellent archer and rogue, a good team player, grounded yet morally trustworthy (in her own way), but she's also got this. She's in love with Elan but afraid of it, and she has a history of broken relationships that aren't just romantic, but in so many areas as well.

Furthermore, we know that what motivates her to grab as much loot as she can is so that she can bail out her dad.

She's got a relationship with her dad- makes you wonder if it also is damaged...

[Efogoto]

I'm surprised that Elan was able to figure out the complexities of chopsticks, though.
Since the contents of the plate never change, how good could he be with them?


(And yes, I know, the plate of food is only iconic just as the characters are stick figures after all.)

[teratorn]

I like the "that would take the message across, even to Elan". Even with a crush she sees the guy for what he is.

This romantic stuff is sort of funny but I miss the adventurer vs nasty-creature thing. I'm not really complaining, we know what's moving towards the city.

[CelestialStick]

:)
I did, and was wondering if anyone else did. But if you really compare, her current-day outfit is of a slightly higher cut than her teenage outfit. (See also #93.)

Yes, I suppose it could just be that the cut of her current top conceals more, but it at least looks like she got smaller.

[CelestialStick]

I remember being 15. I remember being told what to do by the government, my parents, and any adult who felt the urge. I remember considering sub-minimum wage good pay. I remember not being able to drive a car. I remember standing for 10 minuites in front of a cash register, with goods and money in hand, and having the two clerks with no other costomers ignore me. After five minutes an adult walks up, with something cheaper to purchase than what I'm buying, they serve her first, and this was in no way notable or unusual. The offensive case that sticks in my memory is the one when AFTER they have served her they go back to chatting and still don't serve me.

If I go to a clothing store with my neice, who buys or makes all her own clothes, and hang back where the clerks can't see she's "with" an adult I can still see the same sort of behavior applied to someone else, and it still sucks.

I note that sexy 15-17 year olds on TV and in movies are consistently played by 25+ year old actors and actresses. For most people 15 doesn't actually look that good, not even to other 15 year olds.

I wouldn't pay to look 30, I haven't changed appearance much, but if I could be that physical condition with as many years of good health in front of me as when I was 30. Absolutely.

I was actually still in great shape at 40, but the last few years have been very tough on me. So I'd pay to be 40 again.

[Wrecan]

Actually it appears that she has shrunk a bit in the, um, upper region. Did anyone else notice? ;D

At some point in a woman's life the circumstance bonus to Charisma checks from stuffing you bra is overshadowed by the extra encumbrance. ;)

[TinSoldier]

I didn't see that much of a difference between 15-year-old Haley and 24-year-old Haley.

But if there was a difference, I would chalk it up to wearing a sports bra. You know, jumping and climbing over things, shooting a bow, jumping from balconies -- very athletic.

[The_Logic_Ninja]

I'd chalk it up to Gothley wearing a dress that's squishing'em together and pushing'em up.

Those tend to have an effect.

[Nightmarenny]

Yes, I suppose it could just be that the cut of her current top conceals more, but it at least looks like she got smaller.
Corset.

[Arazvill]

Arazvil, stop sneaking into my house and raiding my CD 's !

But I need replacements for my vinyl recordings! ;)

[Grrrrrr]

Haley is a tiefling.

[CelestialStick]

At some point in a woman's life the circumstance bonus to Charisma checks from stuffing you bra is overshadowed by the extra encumbrance. ;)

Yes, as we say in economics, she should stop stuffing her bra where the marginal benefit of stuffing just equals the marginal cost, in this case, the marginal encumbrance. ;D

[Dave_L]

"How else would you expect your self-loathing to look?"

Classic! :)