Game-Warper's Optimization Challenge #2: Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons

[daremetoidareyo]

Hello, welcome to the the

Game-Warper's Optimization Challenge!




Round 2: Dragonwrought Kobolds Are True Dragons



In this round, you will build a character that is eligible to take the Dragonwrought feat at 1st level under the assumption that doing so definitively allows you to treat that character as a True dragon. If you don't understand what that means, just wait a week for the giantitp boards to poke that particular dead horse with the loquacious stick. You can use any benefit of being a true dragon that you can cite from an allowable source.

This character build will be from levels 1-20.

This competition is based on the Iron Chef Competition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571065-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-XCV) rules.

Allowable Sources: Same as the Iron Chef Competition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571065-Iron-Chef-Optimisation-Challenge-in-the-Playground-XCV).

Rules: We will follow all of the entry rules and requirements of the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge for this contest except Judging and that you are limited to a single entry.

PAY ATTENTION THIS IS WAY DIFFERENT THAN NORMAL, WE ARE NOW USING RANKED CHOICE JUDGMENTS:

Judging: By Entering an entrant into this contest, you agree to become a judge. That's right. This is pay to play. Judging works like this:

1. Once all of the submissions are made to the chair: ME (daremetoidareyo) at the end of the challenge period, they will be posted to the forum by the chair.

2. Entrants will read all of the entries and score the other builds by the following metrics:

If there are two entries: The judge will address the following 4 categories: Originality, Power, Elegance, and Use of the ingredient. Each category will need at least two sentences explaining the judge's thoughts and ideas about the build. The submitter only judges the other contestant's build. Both Contestants will share the gold/plated silver medal.

If there are 3-6 entries: The Builds will be assessed in the following 4 categories: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of the ingredient. Each category will need at least one sentence that evaluates how the build performs in those categories. The submitter only judges the other contestant's builds, not their own. The Judge will then rank each of the builds based on the insights received through the assessment of the build categories from first to last (first place, second place, third place, etc.) If a submitter fails to provide a judgement to every other entrant, all of the scores received for their build rendered by other entrants are treated as zeros. If you want to win, you have to judge.

To determine the medalists, Each build will then receive a number of points depending on what ranks they received from judges. The point gain rubric for this formula is this:



1st place = Number of Contesants -1
2nd place - Number of contestants -2



Each of the builds will then have a tally of the total points from between the judge's rankings. The highest point total wins.

If there are 7 or more entries: Builds will be assessed by the following 4 categories: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of the ingredient.

There must be at least one sentence addressing the your Elegance of the Build.
There must be one sentence that begins with "What i liked most about this entry was....."
And there must be one sentence that must begin with "An area of this build that needed more attention was...."

The submitter only judges the other contestant's builds, not their own. If a submitter fails to provide a judgement to every other entrant, all of the scores received for their build rendered by other entrants are treated as zeros. If you want to win, you have to judge. We then move to the ranked choice system explained in the "If there are 3-6 entries" section above.

OVERALL Simply use the established definitions of the rating categories (originality, power , elegance, UoSI) from the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge.

3. These judgments are PMed to the chair, You can send google doc links or similar formats so long as i don't have to sign up for anything, and I will cut and paste the judgments into the thread.

4. We tally up and determine the winner There is no dispute process, so these scores may wildly fluctuate and some contestants will potentially have to manage feelings of injustice on their own. If someone actively works to game this judging system we will edit it in the future to preclude optimization that hurts the spirit of the contest.



So there it is. Show me your tiny dragons!
DEADLINE For Entry: November 1st Midnight, Eastern Standard Time in the USA.

[daremetoidareyo]

Previous Rounds
Round 1: Flawed Commoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568952-Game-Warper-s-Optimization-Challenge-1-E6-Flawed-Commoner)

Announcements
I will post edits and announcements here. For example, if you didn't read the judging section of the above post, you wouldn't know that we are using a ranked choice system to determine winners.

Don't worry too much about providing extensive snapshots like in Iron Chef. Tell us what your true dragon kobold does differently or better than other true dragon kobolds. That's where the real gold lies.


Here are the previous comps

#1: E6 Flawed commoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568952-Game-Warper-s-Optimization-Challenge-1-E6-Flawed-Commoner)

[Bronk]

Don't worry too much about providing extensive snapshots like in Iron Chef. Tell us what your true dragon kobold does differently or better than other true dragon kobolds. That's where the real gold lies.

I like this! Trying to wrangle the Iron Chef form wasn't a particularly fun part of the process last time and evidently no one liked the result anyway.

How simple a look are we talking? Just a few lines of "whatever1/something else10/etc.", a full stat block, or still somewhat of a level by level breakdown?

[daremetoidareyo]

Prove that you're viable at low levels, and pick a level where you have all the tools you need to do your dragonwrought thing well and explain from there.

If you want to do snapshots like iron chef, go ahead.

[WhamBamSam]

I have entirely too many ideas to decide between. This is going to be fun.

[noob]

How about the reverse where dragons would count as true kobolds?

[daremetoidareyo]

Bronk, there are a couple of tricks for wrangling the table. You can build it in a spreadsheet on Google Sheets or Excel or numbers if you have a Mac and then you can copy and paste it into the PM. What you have to do is click that top left button, the what-you-see-is-what-you-get button, first.

[jdizzlean]

possibly, in for a bookmark at least :D

[RaiKirah]

I am unsure if I have any ideas that warrant putting together a build. Partially paralyzed by the wealth of options. Also don't really think I have the TO chops to play with Dragonwrought Kobold to any real level of awesome. We shall see!

[daremetoidareyo]

How many maybes do we have as entrants?

[jdizzlean]

i am a definite.

[Bronk]

I'll be a maybe... I'm working on it, but I'm still in the planning phase. Time is harder to come by this month! Thanks for the table advice too, by the way.

[RaiKirah]

I'm a definite maybe. I've got an idea I'm interested in, now I need to see if I can make it work and then see if I have the time to polish it to submission form.

[WhamBamSam]

I'm honor-bound to get something in.

[daremetoidareyo]

If anyone needs an extension, just let me know

[RaiKirah]

we've got a week left, right? Should be enough at this point.

[Bronk]

If anyone needs an extension, just let me know

Thanks... I’m not sure yet. I’ll know where I’m at after the weekend.

[jdizzlean]

i made a few boo boos, but should be able to correct them and submit in time.

[daremetoidareyo]

We have one entry! Keep them rolling in!

[WhamBamSam]

I'm struggling with my usual problem of wanting about 10 more feats and finding myself a bit swamped this week. I may end up needing an extension.

[daremetoidareyo]

I'm struggling with my usual problem of wanting about 10 more feats and finding myself a bit swamped this week. I may end up needing an extension.

We shall reconvene at 11:59PM on the night of the 8th.

[Bronk]

We shall reconvene at 11:59PM on the night of the 8th.

Just checking to make double sure... does this mean we get an extra week? If so, that would relieve a lot of stress!

[daremetoidareyo]

Just checking to make double sure... does this mean we get an extra week? If so, that would relieve a lot of stress!

Yup. Let that stress fail its death saving throw

[daremetoidareyo]

I have a single entry in. Thursday night is the deadline, do we need a few more days?

[RaiKirah]

I should be good to go

[WhamBamSam]

I think I'll be able to make the deadline.

[daremetoidareyo]

As per a request via PM, make that friday night at 1159 PM Eastern Standard US time

[RaiKirah]

As per a request via PM, make that friday night at 1159 PM Eastern Standard US time

Oh good - that gives me more than 20 minutes to come up with some fluff (though now I also feel honor bound to actually provide sources as well, sigh)

[WhamBamSam]

I was about to ask for an extension too. I spent too much time dithering between two builds and need a little longer to actually finish the one I finally decided on.

[daremetoidareyo]

I was about to ask for an extension too. I spent too much time dithering between two builds and need a little longer to actually finish the one I finally decided on.

Do you need till Monday?

[WhamBamSam]

Do you need till Monday?I'm going to try to get it done by tonight, but we'll see.

EDIT: Yeah, I'm going to need a little more time. Apologies to the other participants.

[Bronk]

Hopefully you got mine in the other day! Thanks, I definitely needed the extra week.

This took way more time than I was expecting though... I think I'll hesitate to participate in the 20 level challenges unless I feel particularly inspired, like I did for the flawed commoner challenge.

[daremetoidareyo]

I just won't have time for the transposition of the entries until nighttime sometime this weekend. I got your entry, bronk.

We have 4 competitors! whew.

If anyone else wants to spontaneously enter, i probably won't be ready until after eleven tonight or tomorrow, so get yer entry in and if you want it to be tomorrow night, send a pm before 11 tonight.

[Bronk]

Thanks!

I'm going on vacation soon, so I'll be able to look at the entries when they come out, but I won't be in a position to do any judging for at least a week...

[daremetoidareyo]

Entry #1: Ganji, The All Watcher


Ganji, The All Watcher
CG Venerable Desert DWK (Steel) Sorc 17/Pally of Freedom 2/Marshall 1





Ladies and Gentlefolk of the Jury, the facts of the case are thus, and they are undisputed.

DWK are True Dragons. This is the infallible reasoning of this round. A DWK can be from any dragon type, so there for any dragon type DWK is a true dragon for this round. An important distinction is that a DWK is a True Dragon, not the other way around. These are the facts of the case, and they are undisputed.

The prosecution will attempt to dissuade you from these facts through hyperbole and inflection, but the facts remain undisputed!



A dragon’s main power is from its age, and a DWK has rules for venerable age category (Great Wrym) that exist. So at level 1, a Venerable Dragonwrought (Steel) Desert Kobold has the following:

-4 STR, +2 DEX, +3 INT, +1 WIS, +3 CHA
Small size bonus’s (+1 to attack and AC, +4 hide, -4 grapple), Speed 30
Darkvision 60 ft, Lowlight, +2 Survival/Search/Craft (traps)
+1 NA

so, we are going to rule that since a DWK is a true dragon, and true dragons have age catergories, and those categories grant HD, that at "level 1" a venerable DWK (great Wrym Steel) then has 37 racial HD and all the feat goodness that entails.... This works because you are playing a DWK who is a True Dragon, and not a True Dragon who is a DWK, a most important distinction. Granted you could then be really any dragon type, say a Great Wrym Prismatic Dragon who has 78 racial HD, but really any of the Dragons in great wrym stage could be used and still be legal…

Great Wrym Steel Dragon:
37d12+296 HOWEVER d10’s + our CONx37 because loredrake
S33, D10, C27, I26, W27, C24 HOWEVER we’re using Point buy
BAB/Grapple +37/+56 Attack: +46
FORT +28, REF +20, WILL +28
Breath Weapon 12d6 (DC 36) Line of Acid and Cone of Poison Gas (Fort or take 12 pts CON, repeats after 1 min) and Frightful Presence 360ft radius (DC 35)
Speed 60/250 Flight (poor)/30 Swim
AC: 46 (+36 natural) touch 10, flat 46
Sorcerer CL 21 and SR 38
Special Abilities: 5/day: Alternate Form, Immunity to Acid, Poison Resistance 10, DR 20/Magic, (Su) - Moderate Arcane Shield (+10 SR on arcane spells of 4th or lower level), 1/day: Enthrall, Charm Person, Suggestion, Mass Suggestion, Mass Charm
Skills: Add Bluff, Craft, Disguise and Profession to class skills
Spells: True Dragon Spellcasting (MM 69) except can also cast Cleric Spells and Knowledge or Trickery Domains as arcane spells

According to the MM, True Dragons have the following:

Bite: 1d6+STR 2Claws: 1d4+1/2STR Wing: 1d4+1/2STR(med size) Tail Slap: 1d8+1.5xSTR(large size) Crush: 2d8+1.5xSTR (huge vs 3sizes smaller) Tail Sweep: 2d8+1.5xSTR (gargantuan) **damage die changes based on size**
Can always use breath weapons while grappling, as well as spells and sla’s. SLA DC’s = 10+CHA+spell level. Natural Weapons are treated as Magic to overcome DR. Immunity to sleep/paralysis.
Blindsense 60ft, Keen Senses (extend Darkvision to 120ft). 6+INT skillsxHD+3 (True Dragon Class skills: Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, all Knowledges, Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Use Magic Device)

Loredrake: add Spellcraft to class skills, increase Sorcerer Level by 2 (23), reduce Racial HD to d10’s, lose cleric casting.

Draconic Rite of Passage (RoTD 43) gain a 1st lvl sorc spell as a SLA 1/day, mage armor or benign transposition
Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (+1 sorc level *24*, for spells and spells/day) casting as 4th level Sorcerer (total)


Advanced Dragon:

gain 1 virtual age category per 3 HD beyond Great Wrym (will gain 6 virtual age categories). Steel dragons are small in wrymling and therefor are in the ordinary group, meaning it becomes Colossal when it gains 1 age category beyond Great Wrym (4th level), and increases to Colossal+ after gaining 12HD beyond Great Wrym (13th lvl).
AC: increase Natural Armor by +1 per HD gained after Great Wrym
Breath Weapon: increase by 2 dice for each age category gained, DC remains 10+1/2 HD+Con
SR: increase by 2 per age category gained
Speed: upon gaining colossal, increase fly speed by 50ft and change to (clumsy), at C+ an additional 50ft
Ability Scores: +2 STR/CON for every age category gained, +2 INT/WIS/CHA for every 2 categories gained
Special Abilities: DR increases to 15/epic at first age category gain, and Nat Weapons are treated as epic
Caster Level: increase by 2 for each category gained, and gain Improved Spell Capacity as a bonus feat for every 3 CL’s above 20 http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedSpellCapacity
Feats: any gained after Great Wrym can be epic feats

Advanced Dragon Gains:

1- (B) Improved Spell Capacity at CL 23rd

4- 40HD: Become Colossal: gain +50ft flight speed (clumsy) Bite becomes 4d8+STR with 30ft reach Claws(2) 4d6+1/2STR Tail 4d6+1.5xSTR Wing(slam) 2d8+1/2STR Tail Sweep (40ft half radius) 2d8+1.5xSTR Crush: 4d8+1.5xSTR
Size change from Small to Colossal:
MED- +4 STR, -2 DEX, +2 CON, -1 AC/Attack
Large- +8 STR, -2 DEX, +4 CON, +2 NA, -1 AC/Attack
Huge- +8 STR, -2 DEX, +4 CON, +3 NA, -1 AC/Attack
Gargantuan- +8 STR, +4 CON, +4 NA, -2 AC/Attack
Colossal- +8 STR, +4 CON, +5 NA, -4 AC/Attack
============================================
Total: +36 STR, -6 DEX, +18 CON, +14 NA, -11 AC/Attack
Breath Weapon 14d6 140ft Line, and 13 points CON 70ft cone. +2 STR/CON. SR 40, Increase CL by 2 Frightful Presence radius 390ft (B) Improved Spell Capacity at CL 26

7- 43HD: gain an additional +50ft flight speed. Breath Weapon 16d6 Line, and 14 pts CON cone. +2 STR/CON/INT/WIS/CHA. SR 42, Increase CL by 2 Frightful Presence radius 420ft

10- 46HD: Breath Weapon 18d6 Line, 15 pts CON cone. +2 STR/CON. SR 44, increase CL by 2 Frightful Presence radius 450ft (B) Improved Spell Capacity at CL 29

13- 49HD: Breath Weapon 20d6 Line, 16 pts CON cone. +2 STR/CON/INT/WIS/CHA. SR 46, Increase CL by 2 Frightful Presence radius 480ft (B) Improved Spell Capacity at CL 32

16-52HD: Breath Weapon 22d6 Line, 17 pts CON cone. +2 STR/CON. SR 48, Increase CL by 2 Frightful Presence radius 510ft

19- 55HD:Breath Weapon 24d6 Line, 18 pts CON cone. +2 STR/CON/INT/WIS/CHA. SR 50, Increase CL by 2 Frightful Presence radius 540ft (B) Improved Spell Capacity at CL 35 (total 36)



32 point buy:
STR 10 DEX 14 CON 10 INT 10 WIS 12 CHA 18
DWK:
STR 6 DEX 16 CON 10 INT 13 WIS 13 CHA 21
Change to Colossal:
STR 42 DEX 10 CON 28 INT 13 WIS 13 CHA 21
Advanced Dragon changes:
STR 54 DEX 10 CON 40 INT 19 WIS 19 CHA 27
Level gains:
STR 54 DEX 10 CON 40 INT 19 WIS 19 CHA 32


Kobolds revere and seek to become One with dragons. Each day all perform a ritual known as Seeking the Dragon in which they hope to become closer with their draconic past. Ganji was born not only different, but vastly different from his clutch-mates. His scales had a steely tinge, and the blood of a Dragon flowed through his veins.

Ganji spent many a year patrolling the ancestral hunting grounds of his people, often alone. His blood allowed him to grow stronger, much faster than the others. In time he became the All Watcher of his tribe, leading them from the front.

Shortly after his 123rd hatchingday he went to sleep as he always did after a day of fighting off the enemies of his people. When he awoke, his home lay in a shambles all around him. So in fact did those of his neighbors, and their neighbors, and their neighbors. Ganji had grown twelve-fold overnight, and towered to the top of the caverns fifth level. All stood in awe around him, many in stunned but blatant adoration.

He had always known fervent respect and servility from the others, but this had an air of Religious zeal about it. Soon, Emissaries from other Tribes began to pilgrimage to his valley. Without trying, he united the Kobold Nation and became their defacto leader, the first ever ALL Watcher. In time, he forgot the name of Kurtulmak, and surpassed him.

The future of the Kobold race was now in His hands, and all enemies would tremble and kneel and retreat, or he would force them into oblivion.


((attorney cants his head to the side))

Ladies and Gentlefolk of the Jury, My client wishes to be addressed now as His Holiness, or the All Watcher, whichever you prefer. Obviously my client can’t be here right now, He has more important things to attend to, but rest easy in the knowledge that He is aware of all that is going on and should I do an insufficient job explaining His desires, He will either send his Avatar in His stead, or grant you the magnificence of His presence.


Deity Rating: in RoTD (100), the picture in the center of the page states a DWK w/ Dragon Wings is revered by his people. Kurtrulmak is the God of Kobolds with a divine rank 15 which would be nice to usurp, but based on his listing he has 60HD where we end up with 56, 28 NA where we have 69, SR of 47 where we end up with 50, skills ranging from 89 ranks to mostly 40/50 where we’ll end up around 60, plus he’s still small while we’re 64+ feet tall barring shape changing. Since this is all entirely an exercise in TO for this round and will never be played, let’s just go ahead and state we’ll be Divine Rank 15 (Intermediate). Of course we don’t just *poof* and are Rank 15, so assume at level 20 we’re 15, and from Level 4 when we hit Colossal until then we’re gaining power at an equal rate starting at Divine Rank 0 and ending at 15 (1 DR per class level).
Any Deity w/ a divine rank above 1 never automatically fail on a roll of 1.

Armor Class: Deities w/o Outsider HD have a tangible field of divine energy that ecompasses them, stacking with all other AC bonus’s, and is effective against touch and incorporeal attacks equal to their divine rank. Also a deflection bonus to AC equal to CHA, and an increase to NA equal to divine rank +15.

Divine Rank is also added as a bonus to all saving throws, and as a bonus on all skill checks, ability checks, caster level checks, and turning checks. Always get a result of 20 on any check, assuming one needs to be made at all.

Immunities: Polymorphing, Petrification, or any other attack that would alter its form. Energy Drain, Ability Damage or Drain. Mind-Affecting effects, i.e. charms, complusions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects. Electricity/cold/acid even if the attacker is a higher divine rank, also immune to disease, poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, death effects and disintegration. Effects that imprison or banish them, including banishment, binding, dimensional anchor, dismissal, imprisonment, repulsion, soul bind, temporal stasis, trap the soul and turning/rebuking.

DR= 35+Divine Rank/+4 = 50/+4
Fire Resistance 20+Divine Rank = 35
SR= 32+Divine Rank = 47

Salient Divine Abilities: in no particular order
1 – Alter Reality
2 – Alter Size
3 – Divine Blast
4 – Mass Divine Blast
5 – Instant Counterspell
6 – Divine Fast Healing : Gain Fast Healing 35, and lost limbs reattach instantly when placed against wound.
7 – Rejuvenation
8 – Divine Shield
9 – Avatar
10 – Annihilating Strike
11 – See Magic
12 – Sunder and Disjoin
13 - Battlesense
14 – Divine Blessing (Strength)
15 – Divine Blessing (Constitution)


A Deity of rank 1 or higher can use any domain power it can grant (Kobold, Magic, War) a number of times/day equal to its Divine Rank (15), Cleric Level equal to divine rank if no class levels taken, or half this.

A Deity can use any domain spell it can grant as an SLA/will with an effective CL of 10+Divine Rank and a DC of 10+spell level+CHA+Divine Rank.
Immortality: all Deities are immortal, have no need to eat, sleep, or breathe and cannot die from natural causes. Any Deity above Rank 1 is not subject to death from massive damage.

Senses: extend out to 15 miles, and sense remotely as a standard action anything w/in range of any worshipers (1 mile/Divine Rank) and for up to an hour afterwards at up to 10 locations. Portfolio Sense: automatically sense any event that involves portfolio regardless of number of people effected, and extend 15 weeks into the past.

Deities gain an additional +2 on synergy bonus’s for skills with 25 ranks (and again at 45 ranks, 65, etc)

Automatic actions (max DC 25) and increased free actions of 10/round.

Any magic item creation related to Portfolio up to 200,000 gold that isn’t an artifact, w/o need of possessing the creation feats. Assume Deity has around 30,000xp/week of disposable XP for crafting.

Divine Aura equal to 1500ft with a save dc of 10+Divine Rank+CHA
-Daze – affected just stare at deity in amazement, can defend but take no actions
-Fright- affected become shakened, any glance or gesture from deity makes them frightened and they flee
-Resolve- allies receive +4 morale bonus on attacks/saves/checks, and enemies receive -4 to the same.

Grant Spells: automatically grant spells/domain powers (3 or more) to mortal divine who pray to you. Levels in Druid/Paladin grant those spell lists, can withhold spells as a free action also.

Spontaneous Casting: any Deity rank 1 or higher can spontaneously cast any spell it can grant.

Remote Communication/Telepathy: rank 1 or higher at any distance from a worshiper, or w/in 15 miles of a site dedicated to deity.
Godly Realm, supreme control over essentially a pocket dimension of 10 mile radius if based in the outer planes, or 1500ft radius on the material plane, and can apply up to 4 metamagic feats to spells w/o increasing spell level.

Can teleport without error as an SLA/will CL 20, Plane Shift as an SLA/will CL 20.

Familiars: rank 1 or higher can treat any creature of a given kind in Rank/miles as a familiar, and grant it all associated abilities of a 10th lvl caster. Can still only have 1 of these special familiars, but can switch between multiple creatures instantaneously. Does not replace a familiar gained from class levels.

Portfolio: Conquest, Kobolds, Magic, Strength, War
Domains: Kobold, Magic, War




Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Sorcerer
37
28
20
30
cc-Balance 10,Bluff 20,Conc 40,Diplo 20,Intim 20,Know Arc 40,Listen 20,Spellcraft 40,Spot 40,UMD 20
Dragonwrought (Steel), Dragon Wings, Dragon Tail, Improved Dragon Wings, Spellcasting Prodigy, Draconic Reservoir, Born Flyer, Diving Charge, Hover, Flyby Attack, Eschew Materials, Improved Familiar - Psuedodragon, (B) Improved Spell Capacity at CL 23
Summon Familiar, Spells, Loredrake, Rite/Greater Rite of Passage, Breath Weapon DC 28


2nd
Sorcerer 2
38
28
20
31
Conc 41, Know 41, Spellcraft 41
-
+1 NA


3rd
Sorcerer 3
38
29
21
31
Conc 42, Know 42, Spellcraft 42
Recover Breath
+1 NA


4th
Marshall
38
31
29
33
Diplomacy 22, Intimidate 22, Know Arc 43
(B) Improved Spell Capacity at CL 26 (B) Skill Focus Diplomacy
Minor Aura – Motivate CHA, Colossal (+36 STR, -6 DEX, +18 CON, +14 NA, -11 AC/Attack) Breath Weapon 14d6 140ft Line, and 13 points CON 70ft cone DC 40. +2 STR/CON. SR 40, Increase CL by 2 Frightful Presence radius 390ft, +1 NA, Divine Rank 0


5th
Paladin of Freedom
39
33
29
33
Conc 44, Diplomacy 23
-
Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/day, +1 NA, Deity Rank 1


6th
Pally 2
40
34
29
33
Conc 45, Diplo 25
Snatch
Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, +1 NA, Deity Rank 2


7th
Sorcerer 4
40
34
29
34
Conc 46, Know 44, Spellcraft 43
-
+50ft flight speed. Breath Weapon 16d6 Line, and 14 pts CON cone DC 42. +2 STR/CON/INT/WIS/CHA. SR 42, Increase CL by 2 Frightful Presence radius 420ft +1 NA Deity Rank 3


8th
Sorcerer 5
40
34
29
34
Conc 47, Know 45, Spellcraft 44
-
+1 NA, Deity Rank 4


9th
Sorcerer 6
41
35
30
34
Conc 48, Know 46, Spellcraft 45
Multiattack
+1 NA, Deity Rank 5


10th
Sorcerer 7
41
35
30
34
Conc 49, Know 47, Spellcraft 46
(B) Improved Spell Capacity at CL 29
Breath Weapon 18d6 line, and 15 pts CON con DC 45. SR 44, Increase CL by 2, Frightful Presence radius 450ft, +2 STR/CON, +1 NA, Deity Rank 6


11th
Sorcerer 8
42
35
30
35
Conc 50, Know 48, Spellcraft 47
-
+1 NA, Deity Rank 7


12th
Sorcerer 9
42
36
31
35
Conc 51, Know 49, Spellcraft 48
Improved Multiattack
+1 NA, Deity Rank 8


13th
Sorcerer 10
43
36
31
36
Conc 52, Know 50, Spellcraft 49
(B) Improved Spell Capacity at CL 32
Breath Weapon 20d6 Line, 16 pts CON cone DC 47. +2 STR/CON/INT/WIS/CHA. SR 46, Increase CL by 2 Frightful Presence radius 480ft, +1 NA, Deity Rank 9


14th
Sorcerer 11
43
36
31
36
Conc 53, Know 51, Spellcraft 50
-
+1 NA, Deity Rank 10


15th
Sorcerer 12
44
37
32
37
Conc 54, Know 52, Spellcraft 51
Recover Breath
+1 NA, Deity Rank 11


16th
Sorcerer 13
44
37
32
37
Conc 55, Know 53, Spellcraft 52
-
Breath Weapon 22d6 Line, 17 pts CON cone DC 50. +2 STR/CON. SR 48, Increase CL by 2 Frightful Presence radius 510ft +1 NA Deity Rank 12


17th
Sorcerer 14
45
37
32
38
Conc 56, Know 54, Spellcraft 53
-
+1 NA, Deity Rank 13


18th
Sorcerer 15
45
38
33
38
Conc 57, Know 55, Spellcraft 54
Ignore Material Components
+1 NA, Deity Rank 14


19th
Sorcerer 16
46
38
33
39
Conc 58, Know 56, Spellcraft 55
(B) Improved Spell Capacity at CL 35
Breath Weapon 24d6 Line, 18 pts CON cone DC 52. +2 STR/CON/INT/WIS/CHA. SR 50, Increase CL by 2 Frightful Presence radius 540ft +1 NA Deity Rank 15


20th
Sorcerer 17
46
38
33
39
Conc 59, Know 57, Spellcraft 56
-
+1 NA



Changes to INT score (from advanced dragon) not accounted for in skill point selection



Ladies and Gentlefolk of the Jury, His Holiness wishes you to know that having already achieved the paltry accomplishment of a BAB of +16 and a Caster Level of 20 in his ‘youth’ (that some consider to the hallmark of a truly powerful Gish), that there is no point in taking more than the base sorcerer class to expand His magickal ability. He doesn’t wish to pay lip service to any other organization or lesser being.


Spells per Day/Spells Known


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st (as 4th lvl Sorcerer)
6/6

6/3

4*/1

-

-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd (as 5th)
6/6

6/4

5/2

-

-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd (as 6th)
6/7

6/4

6/2

3/1

-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
6/7

6/4

6/2

4*/1

-

-
-
-
-
-


7th (as 7th, etc)
6/7

6/5

7/3

5/2

-

-
-
-
-
-


8th
6/8

6/5

7/3

6/2

3/1

-
-
-
-
-


9th
6/8

6/5

7/4

7/3

4/2

-
-
-
-
-


10th
6/9

6/5

7/4

7/3

5/2

3/1

1*

-
-
-


11th
6/9

6/5

7/5

7/4

6/3

4/2

1
-
-
-


12th
6/9

6/5

7/5

7/4

6/3

5/2

4/1

-
-
-


13th
6/9

6/5

7/5

7/4

6/4

6/3

5/2

1*
-
-


14th
6/9

6/5

7/5

7/4

6/4

6/3

6/2

4/1

-
-


15th
6/9

6/5

7/5

7/4

6/4

6/4

7/3

5/2

-
-


16th
6/9

6/5

7/5

7/4

6/4

6/4

7/3

6/2

3/1

-



17th
6/9

6/5

7/5

7/4

6/4

6/4

7/3

7/3

4/2

-



18th
6/9

6/5

7/5

7/4

6/4

6/4

7/3

7/3

5/2

3/1



19th*
6/9

6/5

7/5

7/4

6/4

6/4

7/3

7/3

6/3

4/2



20th
6/9

6/5

7/5

7/4

6/4

6/4

7/3

7/3

6/3

6/3






*'s on the table represent levels that grant Improved Spell Capacity. 19th lvl grants a 10th level spell slot. Spells/day listed do not reflect additional spells per day for a High CHA, mostly because that changes drastically as the build goes on, and there's already enough headache up in here to track.
Should you care to look up the additions to slots, CHA bonus for spells is:
Level 1: 23
Level 4: 24
Level 7: 26
Level 8: 27
Level 12: 28
Level 13: 30
Level 16: 31
Level 19: 33
Level 20: 34

Spells Known are the same as directly out of the book at each level. In this case the kobold sorcerer substitution level at 7 would grant 1 more additional spell known over the baseline.
0: Detect Magic, Light, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Arcane Mark, Minor Invisibility, Read Magic
1: Comprehend Languages, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Strength of the True Form, Disguise Self
2: Shatter, Minor Image, Alter Self, Wings of Cover, Essence of the Dragon
3: Dispel Magic, Haste, Major Image, Invisibility Sphere, Lightning Bolt
4: Wall of Scales, Wings of Flurry, Dimension Door, Polymorph
5: Cloudkill, Dominate Person, Arcane Fusion, Manifest Dragon Heritage
6: Summon Monster 6, Disintegrate, Greater Dispel Magic, True Seeing
7: Limited Wish, Summon Aspect of Bahamut, Prismatic Spray
8: Greater Manifest Dragon Heritage, Mind Blank, Polymorph Any Object
9: Gate, Shades, Wish



Deities and Demigods: Deity creation rules
Draconomicon: Recover Breath
Dragons of Eberron: Loredrake
Dragons of Faerun: Steel Dragon
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting: Spellcasting Prodigy
Miniature’s Handbook: Marshall
Monster Manual: Hover, Flyby Attack, True Dragons
PHB: Pally and Sorc Stuff
Player’s Guide to Faerun: Spellcasting Prodigy
Races of the Dragon: DWK, Venerable age category, Dragon Tail, Dragonwrought, Dragon Wings/Improved, Draconic Reservoir
Races of the Wild: Born Flyer, Diving Charge
Tome and Blood: Improved Familiar
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonAdvanced.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm


Ladies and Gentlefolk of the Jury:

I have shown unequivocally that Ganji, The ALL Watcher is a True Dragon and deserving of your worship.
I have shown unequivocally that He is indeed beyond mortal comprehension, and will continue to grow in His stature as time goes on.
I have shown unequivocally that He has surpassed even the semi-great Kurtulmak who from this point on shall still enjoy a place in Kobold Lore as is his right, but it shall be beneath Ganji’s place.

DWK are True Dragons. This is the infallible reasoning of this round. A DWK can be from any dragon type, so there for any dragon type DWK is a true dragon for this round. An important distinction is that a DWK is a True Dragon, not the other way around. These are the facts of the case, and they are undisputed.

The Defense rests.


First and foremost, while I personally fall on the side of the “DWK is or isn’t a dragon argument” as a definitive IS a dragon, this build and this rounds stipulation that they are a TRUE DRAGON with all that entails and more results in things like this coming to be.

The premise of the build is that you are a kobold who happens to be a true dragon.

A kobold can be venerable at level 1 w/o penalty.

A dragon has age categories as well, and these age categories have associated HD, and venerable/great wrym is in most cases the strongest version of that dragon that can be.

Therefore, a great wrym dragonwrought kobold WHO IS A TRUE DRAGON, has all of the associated benefits of whichever dragon type he is, for his age category.

And the rest of the build from there.

Clearly a colossal+ sized Kobold would be something of an ooh and ahh thing. Combined with the kobolds racial affinity for dragons, and their daily meditation seeking to become closer to dragons leads to the character attaining Divinity. There are many sorcerer based PrC’s, but none which provide any real tangible benefit to this build and this background. Pure spellcasting progression is the only thing worried about as BAB/CL/SR/DR is all taken care of in the “first level”.

Marshall is of course a shameless CHA stacking dip, but the character is also clearly becoming a leader in his area and expanding outward from there so it makes sense.

Paladin is also clearly as is a protector of his people, and of course it doesn’t hurt to double stack his CHA bonus into his saves, and then stack his divine rank into them later as well.

Spell progression is in short hops higher than it would otherwise be, allowing the character to be ‘better’ than everyone else at several times during his career. Attaining a 10th level spell slot is evidence of this as well.

Hit points work out to roughly:
37d10+2d4+1d8+10+2d10+20+3d4+33+3d4+36+3d4+39+3d4+ 42+2d4+30

Or simplified: 39d10+1d8+17d4+348, somewhere in the ballpark of say 600 out of a maximized 814

Unfortunately Leadership (and by extension, Legendary Leadership) and Dragon Cohort is banned, otherwise Tome Dragon would make an excellent Cohort, and could possibly take a dragon pact from you as well. However there is no such restriction in place for Epic feats.

I apologize to no one, however I’m sorry for what is probably a head-shattering ache that has developed between your ears and thus caused you to possibly see blinding white flashes of sheer disbelief as you have read this submission. We only get one entry, so go big (haha, colossally BIG!) or go home.

[daremetoidareyo]

Entrant #2:Draco ‘Goldie’ Wyvernsbottom


Draco ‘Goldie’ Wyvernsbottom, Dragonwrought Kobold Cleric

PHB, DMG, MM1, Draconomicon, Races of the Dragon, Dragon Magic, Spell Compendium, Dragon Compendium, the Book of Exalted Deeds, Dragons of Eberron, Fiendish Codex 1, the Completes, and the Complete Divine web enhancement: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a

Other sources may be referenced later.
Kobold stats, Races of the Dragon, p 39:
Humanoid (dragonblood, reptilian), -4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, Small (+1 AC, +1 att, +4 hide, -4 grapple, ¾ lift), speed 30, Darkvision 60, Add Craft (trapmaking) to class skills, +2 racial bonus to Craft (trapmaking), Profession (miner), and Search, +1 natural armor, Light Sensitivity (dazzled in bright light), Automatic Language: Draconic, Bonus languages: Common and Undercommon, favored class: Sorcerer, LA+0, have two sets of age categories, one with 12 ages from wyrmling to great wyrm, and another stating middle age, old, and venerable ages. Venerable, at 120 years, equates to Great Wyrm.

Kobold stat adjustments to Races of the Dragon from web:
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a
2 primary claw attacks that deal 1d3 slashing damage, 1 secondary bite attack that deals 1d3 piercing damage, slight build, Bonus Feats: Weapon Proficiency (heavy pick), Weapon Proficiency (light pick), Weapon Familiarity (treat greatpicks as martial weapons instead of exotic weapons (greatpick, two handed, 15g, 1d8 small damage, X4, piercing)).

Dragonwrought Kobold (Races of the Dragon, p39, 100, 103):
Per p100, type is dragon rather than humanoid, lose dragonblood subtype, retain all other subtypes and kobold racial traits, scales tint to match draconic heritage. Gain immunity to magic sleep and paralysis effects. Darkvision 60, gain low light vision, gain +2 racial bonus to skill indicated on draconic heritage table on page 103. Ability to take dragon wings feat at level 3. Per page 39, also do not take physical penalties from aging.
Draconomicon, p66: Dragons can start choosing epic feats when they reach Age Category: Old
Ability to pick starting age: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm
Aging to venerable: -6 Str, Dex, and Con. +3 to Int, Wis, and Cha
Original: Str8, Dex10, Con12, Int14, Wis15, Cha16

After racial adjustments: Str4, Dex12, Con12, Int14, Wis16, Cha14

After aging to venerable:: Str4, Dex12, Con12, Int17, Wis19, Cha17

+1 Intelligence at level 4
+1 Charisma at level 8
+3 Wisdom at levels 12, 16, and 20
Rebuke Dragons (cleric ACF, Dragon Magic p14)

Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype. (Dragon Magic, p4)

Spell: Embrace the Dark Chaos, Cleric/Sor/Wiz 8, FC1 p92
Spell: Shun the Dark Chaos, Cleric/Sor/Wiz 8, FC1 p95
Note: These spells are not evil, merely chaotic.

Wyrm of War: Grants proficiency in simple and martial weapons, all armor and shields, and gains a bonus feat every 4 HD.

From the time Goldie was born, his dragonwrought gold dragon heritage was apparent to all. It afforded him with status in his far flung clan, which he took for granted. After a sheltered upbringing, he turned a blind eye to the hardships and troubles his clan faced, surrounding himself various cronies and hangers on, and over the years he jealously accumulated a veritable dragon hoard of loot, not helping other kobolds at all. This went on for quite some time, and why not? His feelings and actions weren’t out of the ordinary for a normal kobold, and certainly not for one whose draconic ancestry showed so clearly.

Goldie lived to a ripe old age in this manner, living the good life, not caring that he had insulated himself so much from regular day to day life that he barely knew what was going on outside his own doors! However, one day he was visited by an emissary of the dragon god Astilabor, the Hoardmistress!

Astilabor was one of the many deities that Goldie paid lip service to and the emissary - an angel in dragon form - slapped Goldie upside the head, made them both invisible, and took him on a tour of his clan’s land. There Goldie was shown the truth… that the clan members faced serious dangers out in the wilds of the underdark beyond their cavern. Astilabor, the angel relayed, cared about the kobolds, related to the dragons as they were, and called upon Goldie to step up and take a hand in protecting them, for the angel left with a warning… there would come a time when his clan would be inundated by an ever increasing number of evil draconic creatures!

The castened Goldie went into a hermitage, and when he came out the venerable kobold had become a cleric of Astilabor, with the ability to rebuke dragons instead of turn undead, and had achieved the status of a Wyrm of War. Goldie used his status to rally his clan, and together they were able to fight back against the increasing tide of draconic that were appearing throughout their territory. When rival kobolds began infiltrating their lairs, he became a Church Inquisitor to root them out. The battles raged on, fought with weapons and magic, and Goldie was in the heart of it all.




Note: All prerequisites for Singer of the Concordance are waived for dragons (see Dragon Magic, p4).



Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Cleric 1
0
2
0
2
4 Kn. Arcana,
4 Kn. Religion,
4 Spellcraft,
4 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local
Racial: W. Prof. Heavy Pick,
Racial: W. Prof. Light Pick,
Cleric: Shield Proficiency,
Cleric: Armor Prof. Light,
Cleric: Armor Prof. Medium,
Cleric: Armor Prof. Heavy,
General: Dragonwrought,
Rune Domain: Scribe Scroll,
Metal Domain: Martial W. Prof.,
Metal Domain: Weapon Focus Warhammer,
General (flaw): Epic Toughness
Flaw: Inattentive,
Domain: Rune,
Domain: Metal,
Turn Undead
ACF: Rebuke Dragons,
Spellcasting


2nd
Singer of the Concordance 1
0
2
2
4
5 Kn. Arcana,
4 Kn. Religion,
4 Spellcraft,
5 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local,
5 Sense Motive

Aspect of Peace


3rd
Singer of the Concordance 2
1
2
3
5
6 Kn. Arcana,
6 Kn. Religion,
6 Spellcraft,
6 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local,
6 Sense Motive
General: Extra Turning,
Wealth Domain: Skill Focus Appraise
Bonus Domain: Wealth


4th
Church Inquisitor 1
1
2
3
7
6 Kn. Arcana,
7 Kn. Religion,
6 Spellcraft,
7 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local,
6 Sense Motive,
4 Gather Information
WoW: Intuitive Attack,
Devotion: Knowledge Devotion
Detect Evil,
Bonus Domain: Inquisition


5th
Church Inquisitor 2
2
2
3
8
6 Kn. Arcana,
8 Kn. Religion,
6 Spellcraft,
8 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local,
6 Sense Motive,
8 Gather Information

Immune to charms


6th
Church Inquisitor 3
3
3
4
8
6 Kn. Arcana,
9 Kn. Religion,
9 Spellcraft,
9 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local,
6 Sense Motive,
9 Gather Information
General: Extend Spell
Pierce Illusion






Venerable DWK L6, Cleric 1 / Singer of the Concordance 2 / Church Inquisitor 3,
Important features: Dragonwrought, Rebuke Dragons, Intuitive Attack Feat, Epic Toughness, level 3 cleric spells

BAB +3, Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +12, HP = 4d8 +2d6 + 6 Con +30 Epic Toughness
Abilities: Str4, Dex12, Con12, Int18, Wis19, Cha17
Initiative: +1
Speed 30
AC: 23 (10 +1 dex +1 natural + 7 armor + 3 shield +1 size)
Attack: Melee: Claw +8 (1d3-3 X2), Bite +3 (1d3-3 X2)
Attack: Ranged: Crossbow +6 (1d8+2 X2)
Special: Light Sensitivity, Low Light Vision, Darkvision 60’, Immune to magic sleep, immune to paralysis


Items: repeating heavy crossbow +2, banded mail +1, heavy wooden shield +1, handy haversack, adventuring gear



Tactical spells: Ice Gauntlet (L1, SpC), Shield of Faith (L1, PHB), Conviction (L1, SpC), Divine Favor (L1, PHB), Bull’s Strength (L2, PHB)

With spells up:

BAB +3, Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +15, HP = 4d8 +2d6 + 6 Con +30 Epic Toughness
Abilities: Str8, Dex12, Con12, Int18, Wis19, Cha17
Initiative +1
Speed 30
AC: (10 +1 dex +1 natural + 7 armor + 3 shield +1 size + 3 deflection)
Attack: Ice gauntlet +10 (1d4-1 +1d4 cold X2), Bite +5 (1d3-1 X2)
Attack: Ranged: Crossbow +8 (1d8+4 X2)
Special: Light Sensitivity, Low Light Vision, Darkvision 60’, Immune to magic sleep, immune to paralysis


Additional tactics - Casting Sanctuary, then summoning Ice Beasts:

Conjure Ice Beast 1:
Medium Monstrous Centipede beast: 44hp, 18AC, s40, bite +2(1d6-1) (either +1d6 cold or 1d6 cold breath)

Conjure Ice Beast 2:
Large Monstrous Centipede beast: 70hp, 20AC, s40, bite +3(1d8+1) (either +1d6 cold or 1d6 cold breath)

Conjure Ice Beast 3:
Huge Monstrous Centipede beast: 104hp, 24AC, DR5/m, s40, bite +5(2d6+4) (either +1d6 cold or 3d6 cold br)





The Beginning of the Middle

The struggle raged on and never let up - it merely evolved. The draconic enemies gave way to demons and the undead, and Goldie turned to the ways of the Sacred Exorcist to protect his clan. He used his connection to the divine to begin to empower himself, knowing that if he could survive, he could help others. He found himself on the offensive more often than not. However, he realized something… he was alone.

His fellow kobolds from his clan - and now a number of neighboring clans which had banded together with them for safety - were still there, of course, and he was still granted spells, but where were his fellow clerics of Astilabor? Where was the angelic messenger from earlier? It appeared that his clan had been left in the lurch, forgotten in the grand battlefield, but that couldn’t be, could it? Goldie investigated using his powers as Church Inquisitor once more, questioning his enemies and even a number of celestial beings called forth as Planar Allies, and discovered a dire truth… The battles his kobold clan were engaged in were raging on because of the dragon gods, not despite them! They were being used in pawns in increasingly antagonistic rounds of a dangerous draconic game… they were Grand Central Station in multiple games of Xorvintaal!

Xorvintaal is a game played for gold, loot, power, and prestige… all things that the Hoardmistress claimed to engender in dragons, but supposedly without the ‘stigma of greed’. Yet the games of death they were embroiled in were between dragons - even supposedly goodly dragons - that envied those very qualities in each other! If it wasn’t greed what was it? Goldie entered into a very deep contemplation of the concept of draconic envy…







Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Cleric 1
0
2
0
2
4 Kn. Arcana,
4 Kn. Religion,
4 Spellcraft,
4 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local
Racial: W. Prof. Heavy Pick,
Racial: W. Prof. Light Pick,
Cleric: Shield Proficiency,
Cleric: Armor Prof. Light,
Cleric: Armor Prof. Medium,
Cleric: Armor Prof. Heavy,
General: Dragonwrought,
Rune Domain: Scribe Scroll,
Metal Domain: Martial W. Prof.,
Metal Domain: Weapon Focus Warhammer,
General (flaw): Epic Toughness
Flaw: Inattentive,
Domain: Rune,
Domain: Metal,
Turn Undead
ACF: Rebuke Dragons,
Spellcasting


2nd
Singer of the Concordance 1
0
2
2
4
5 Kn. Arcana,
4 Kn. Religion,
4 Spellcraft,
5 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local,
5 Sense Motive

Aspect of Peace


3rd
Singer of the Concordance 2
1
2
3
5
6 Kn. Arcana,
6 Kn. Religion,
6 Spellcraft,
6 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local,
6 Sense Motive
General: Extra Turning,
Wealth Domain: Skill Focus Appraise
Bonus Domain: Wealth


4th
Church Inquisitor 1
1
2
3
7
6 Kn. Arcana,
7 Kn. Religion,
6 Spellcraft,
7 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local,
6 Sense Motive,
4 Gather Information
WoW: Intuitive Attack,
Devotion: Knowledge Devotion
Detect Evil,
Bonus Domain: Inquisition


5th
Church Inquisitor 2
2
2
3
8
6 Kn. Arcana,
8 Kn. Religion,
6 Spellcraft,
8 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local,
6 Sense Motive,
8 Gather Information

Immune to charms


6th
Church Inquisitor 3
3
3
4
8
6 Kn. Arcana,
9 Kn. Religion,
9 Spellcraft,
9 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local,
6 Sense Motive,
9 Gather Information
General: Extend Spell
Pierce Illusion


7th
Church Inquisitor 4
4
3
4
9
8 Kn. Arcana,
10 Kn. Religion,
10 Spellcraft,
10 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local,
6 Sense Motive,
10 Gather Information

Pierce Disguise


8th
Sacred Exorcist 1
4
3
4
11
8 Kn. Arcana,
10 Kn. Religion,
10 Spellcraft,
10 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local,
6 Sense Motive,
10 Gather Information,
6 Intimidate
WoW: Improved Initiative
Exorcism,
Turn Undead


9th
Sacred Exorcist 2
5
3
4
12
8 Kn. Arcana,
10 Kn. Religion,
10 Spellcraft,
10 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local,
6 Sense Motive,
10 Gather Information,
12 Intimidate
General: Persist Spell
Detect Evil,
Resist Posession


10th
Loremaster 1
5
3
4
14
8 Kn. Arcana,
13 Kn. Religion,
12 Spellcraft,
10 Kn. Planes,
8 Kn. Local,
6 Sense Motive,
10 Gather Information,
12 Intimidate
Bonus Feat from Secret: Extra Turning
Secret: Bonus Feat


11th
Contemplative 1
5
3
4
16
8 Kn. Arcana,
13 Kn. Religion,
12 Spellcraft,
10 Kn. Planes,
8 Kn. Local,
14 Sense Motive,
10 Gather Information,
12 Intimidate

Bonus Domain: Envy,
Divine Health


12th
Contemplative 2
6
3
4
17
8 Kn. Arcana,
13 Kn. Religion,
12 Spellcraft,
10 Kn. Planes,
8 Kn. Local,
15 Sense Motive,
15 Gather Information,
12 Intimidate,
2 Diplomacy
General: Divine Metamagic Persist,
WoW: Blindfight
Slippery Mind




Venerable DWK L12, Cleric 1 / Singer of the Concordance 2 / Church Inquisitor 4 / Sacred Exorcist 2 / Loremaster 1 / Contemplative 2

Important features: Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), Rebuke Dragon ACF (may be used to power divine feats), Turn Undead regained from Sacred Exorcist, Extra Turning feat that applies to both Rebuke Dragon and Turn Undead, Level 7 cleric spells

BAB +6, Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +23, HP = 7d8 + 4d6 + 1d4 + 13 Con +30 Epic Toughness
Abilities: Str4, Dex12, Con12, Int18, Wis20, Cha18 (24)
Initiative +5
Speed 30
AC: 31 (10 +1 dex +1 natural + 11 armor + 7 shield +1 size)
Attack: Melee: Improved Unarmed Strike +11/+6 (1d2-3), Claw +6 (1d3-3 X2), Bite +6 (1d3-3 X2)
Attack: Ranged: Crossbow +9/+4 (1d8+2 X2)
Special: Light Sensitivity, Low Light Vision, Darkvision 60’, Immune to magic sleep, immune to paralysis

Items: repeating heavy crossbow +2, banded mail +5, heavy wooden shield +5, Cloak of Charisma +6, various scrolls, handy haversack, adventuring gear


To cast at L12 (up to L6 Spells, but with DMM persist with 36 rebuke/turnings)

Opalescent Glare (permanent) L6 (save or die if evil foe is 5HD or fewer, otherwise, save or fear)

Superior Resistance (L6) lasts 24 hours (+6 resistance bonus to saves)

Conviction (DMM)(L1) +4 morale bonus to saves

Divine Favor (DMM)(L1) +3 luck bonus to attack and damage

Persist Divine Power(DMM) L4 (+6 Strength, +1HP/CL (12), BAB=HD=12))

Shield of Faith (DMM) L1 (+4 deflection AC)

Divine Agility (L5) (DMM) +10 enhancement bonus to Dex

Righteous Might (L5) (DMM) Size medium, DR 6/good, +4 size bonus to Str, +2 size bonus to Con, and gain one size category (+4str, +2 con, -2 dex, -1 attack, -1 AC)


With spells up and persisted for the day:

BAB +12, Fort +16, Ref +19, Will +33, HP = 7d8 + 4d6 + 1d4 + 36 Con +30 Epic Toughness +12 Divine Power
Abilities: Str8(18), Dex20, Con16, Int18, Wis20, Cha18 (24)
Initiative +5
Speed 30
AC: 38 (10 +5 dex +1 natural + 11 armor + 7 shield +4 deflection)
Attack: Melee: Improved Unarmed Strike +20/+15/+10 (1d2+7 X2), Claw +15 (1d3+5 X2), Bite +15 (1d3+5 X2)
Attack: Ranged: Crossbow +18/+13/+8 (1d8+2 X2)
Special: Light Sensitivity, Low Light Vision, Darkvision 60’, Immune to magic sleep, immune to paralysis, DR6/good
Items: repeating heavy crossbow +2, banded mail +5, heavy wooden shield +5, Cloak of Charisma +6, various scrolls, handy haversack, adventuring gear

Tactics: Using Sanctuary while conjuring more powerful ice beasts. Attacking directly with spells such as Darkfire, Alicorn Lance, Deific Vengeance, Moonbolt, Cloud of Knives, and Flamestrike.




...and didn’t like what he saw.

Because eventually Goldie realized the truth. This was no normal game - or even games! - of Xorvintaal he and his clan were all caught up in… This had escalated to the gods themselves! This game had started who knows how long ago, and he saw that he was brought in as a cheap patsy as easily as dazzling a local yokel with some parlor tricks. In this game, he and his clan were treated as expendable pawns, less than dirt. As less than Dragon.

Goldie knew he was all Dragon, True Dragon, so he Dragoned up and did what was best for his clan! He broke with Astilabor and the other dragon gods, and changed his allegiance to to the goddess that most fit his outlook: Mystra, goddess of magic! Becoming a dweomerkeeper, Goldie continued in his quest for ever more powerful spells to protect himself and his clan, not by turning away from his draconic heritage, but by embracing it, eventually taking on the battle form of an Aspect of Bahamut as one last nod to his old beliefs.






Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Cleric 1
0
2
0
2
4 Kn. Arcana,
4 Kn. Religion,
4 Spellcraft,
4 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local
Racial: W. Prof. Heavy Pick,
Dark Chaos Shuffle 1
Racial: W. Prof. Light Pick,
Dark Chaos Shuffle 2
Cleric: Shield Proficiency,
Dark Chaos Shuffle 3
Cleric: Armor Prof. Light,
Dark Chaos Shuffle 4
Cleric: Armor Prof. Medium,
Dark Chaos Shuffle 5
Cleric: Armor Prof. Heavy,
Dark Chaos Shuffle 6
General: Dragonwrought,
Rune Domain: Scribe Scroll,
Dark Chaos Shuffle 7
Metal Domain: Martial W. Prof.,
Dark Chaos Shuffle 8
Metal Domain: Weapon Focus Warhammer,
Dark Chaos Shuffle 9
General (flaw): Epic Toughness
Flaw: Inattentive,
Domain: Rune,
Domain: Metal,
Turn Undead
ACF: Rebuke Dragons,
Spellcasting


2nd
Singer of the Concordance 1
0
2
2
4
5 Kn. Arcana,
4 Kn. Religion,
4 Spellcraft,
5 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local,
5 Sense Motive

Aspect of Peace


3rd
Singer of the Concordance 2
1
2
3
5
6 Kn. Arcana,
6 Kn. Religion,
6 Spellcraft,
6 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local,
6 Sense Motive
General: Extra Turning,
Wealth Domain: Skill Focus Appraise
Dark Chaos Shuffle 10
Bonus Domain: Wealth


4th
Church Inquisitor 1
1
2
3
7
6 Kn. Arcana,
7 Kn. Religion,
6 Spellcraft,
7 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local,
6 Sense Motive,
4 Gather Information
WoW: Intuitive Attack,
Devotion: Knowledge Devotion
Dark Chaos Shuffle 11
Detect Evil,
Bonus Domain: Inquisition


5th
Church Inquisitor 2
2
2
3
8
6 Kn. Arcana,
8 Kn. Religion,
6 Spellcraft,
8 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local,
6 Sense Motive,
8 Gather Information

Immune to charms


6th
Church Inquisitor 3
3
3
4
8
6 Kn. Arcana,
9 Kn. Religion,
9 Spellcraft,
9 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local,
6 Sense Motive,
9 Gather Information
General: Extend Spell
Pierce Illusion


7th
Church Inquisitor 4
4
3
4
9
8 Kn. Arcana,
10 Kn. Religion,
10 Spellcraft,
10 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local,
6 Sense Motive,
10 Gather Information

Pierce Disguise


8th
Sacred Exorcist 1
4
3
4
11
8 Kn. Arcana,
10 Kn. Religion,
10 Spellcraft,
10 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local,
6 Sense Motive,
10 Gather Information,
6 Intimidate
WoW: Improved Initiative
Exorcism,
Turn Undead


9th
Sacred Exorcist 2
5
3
4
12
8 Kn. Arcana,
10 Kn. Religion,
10 Spellcraft,
10 Kn. Planes,
4 Kn. Local,
6 Sense Motive,
10 Gather Information,
12 Intimidate
General: Persist Spell
Detect Evil,
Resist Posession


10th
Loremaster 1
5
3
4
14
8 Kn. Arcana,
13 Kn. Religion,
12 Spellcraft,
10 Kn. Planes,
8 Kn. Local,
6 Sense Motive,
10 Gather Information,
12 Intimidate
Bonus Feat from Secret: Extra Turning
Secret: Bonus Feat


11th
Contemplative 1
5
3
4
16
8 Kn. Arcana,
13 Kn. Religion,
12 Spellcraft,
10 Kn. Planes,
8 Kn. Local,
14 Sense Motive,
10 Gather Information,
12 Intimidate

Bonus Domain: Envy,
Divine Health


12th
Contemplative 2
6
3
4
17
8 Kn. Arcana,
13 Kn. Religion,
12 Spellcraft,
10 Kn. Planes,
8 Kn. Local,
15 Sense Motive,
15 Gather Information,
12 Intimidate,
2 Diplomacy
General: Divine Metamagic Persist,
WoW: Blindfight
Dark Chaos Shuffle 12
Slippery Mind


13th
Dweomerkeeper 1
6
3
4
19
8 Kn. Arcana,
13 Kn. Religion,
16 Spellcraft,
10 Kn. Planes,
8 Kn. Local,
15 Sense Motive,
15 Gather Information,
14 Intimidate,
6 Diplomacy

Mantle of Spells 1


14th
Dweomerkeeper 2
7
3
4
20
10 Kn. Arcana,
13 Kn. Religion,
17 Spellcraft,
10 Kn. Planes,
8 Kn. Local,
15 Sense Motive,
15 Gather Information,
14 Intimidate,
11 Diplomacy

Arcane Sight


15th
Dweomerkeeper 3
7
4
5
20
10 Kn. Arcana,
13 Kn. Religion,
18 Spellcraft,
10 Kn. Planes,
8 Kn. Local,
15 Sense Motive,
15 Gather Information,
14 Intimidate,
18 Diplomacy
General: Extra Turning
Mantle of Spells 2


16th
Dweomerkeeper 4
8
4
5
21
16 Kn. Arcana,
13 Kn. Religion,
19 Spellcraft,
10 Kn. Planes,
8 Kn. Local,
15 Sense Motive,
15 Gather Information,
14 Intimidate,
19 Diplomacy
WoW: Improved Shield Bash
Dark Chaos Shuffle 13
Supernatural Spell 1/day


17th
Dweomerkeeper 5
8
4
5
21
20 Kn. Arcana,
15 Kn. Religion,
20 Spellcraft,
10 Kn. Planes,
8 Kn. Local,
15 Sense Motive,
15 Gather Information,
14 Intimidate,
20 Diplomacy

Mantle of Spells 3


18th
Dweomerkeeper 6
9
5
6
22
21 Kn. Arcana,
20 Kn. Religion,
21 Spellcraft,
10 Kn. Planes,
8 Kn. Local,
15 Sense Motive,
15 Gather Information,
14 Intimidate,
21 Diplomacy
General: Extra Turning
Supernatural Spell 2/day


19th
Dweomerkeeper 7
9
5
6
22
22 Kn. Arcana,
22 Kn. Religion,
22 Spellcraft,
13 Kn. Planes,
8 Kn. Local,
15 Sense Motive,
15 Gather Information,
14 Intimidate,
22 Diplomacy

Mantle of Spells 4


20th
Dweomerkeeper 8
10
5
6
23
23 Kn. Arcana,
23 Kn. Religion,
23 Spellcraft,
17 Kn. Planes,
8 Kn. Local,
15 Sense Motive,
15 Gather Information,
14 Intimidate,
23 Diplomacy
WoW: Quick Draw
Dark Chaos Shuffle 14
Supernatural Spell 3/day


Dark Chaos Shuffle






DCS 1: Extra Turning
DCS 2: Extra Turning
DCS 3: Invisible Spell
DCS 4: Maximize Spell
DCS 5: Energy Substitution (Acid)
DCS 6: Energy Admixture (Acid)
DCS 7: Divine Metamagic (Energy Admixture Acid)
DCS 8: Enhance Spell (Epic)
DCS 9: Divine Spell Power
DCS 10: Zen Archery
DCS 11: Assume Supernatural Ability (breath weapon)
DCS 12: Multiattack
DCS 13: Tenacious Magic (Epic): Wish
DCS 14: Hover





Venerable DWK L20, Cleric 1 / Singer of the Concordance 2 / Church Inquisitor 4 / Sacred Exorcist 2 / Contemplative 2 / Dweomerkeeper 8
Important features: Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), Rebuke Dragon ACF (may be used to power divine feats), Turn Undead regained from Sacred Exorcist, Extra Turning feats that apply to both Rebuke Dragon and Turn Undead, Level 9 cleric spells, Supernatural Spell 1/day from Dweomerkeeper, Wish spell from Envy Domain, Ability to cast Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos as L8 cleric spells to enact the ‘Dark Chaos Shuffle’


BAB +10, Fort +8, Ref +9, Will +31, HP = 7d8 + 12d6 + 1d4 + 60 Con +30 Epic Toughness
Abilities: Str7, Dex16, Con16, Int22, Wis26, Cha22(28)
Initiative +7
Speed 30
AC: 41 (10 +3 dex +1 natural + 11 armor + 7 shield +13 wisdom +1 monk +1 size), flat footed 38, touch 28
Attack: Melee: Improved Unarmed Strike +8/+3 (1d6-2), Claw +6/+1 (1d3-2 X2), Bite +6 (1d3-2 X2)
Attack: Ranged: Crossbow +18/+13/+8 (1d8+2 X2)

Special: Light Sensitivity, Low Light Vision, Darkvision 60’, Immune to magic sleep, immune to paralysis

Items: repeating heavy crossbow +2, banded mail +4, heavy wooden shield +4, Cloak of Charisma +6, various scrolls, Manual of quickness in action +4, Tome of leadership and influence +4, Tome of understanding +4, Pearls of Power (two 9ths, three 6ths), handy haversack, monk’s belt, howdah (holds 4 medium creatures), eight sundark goggles, adventuring gear


PAO has been cast with Wish gained from Envy Domain via Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell, and bolstered by the epic feat 'Tenacious Magic'. This use of PAO is permanent (same kingdom, same class, related).

PAO: Aspect of Bahamut, Dragon Magic p108, huge dragon, 12HD, AC: -2 size, +18 natural
Str34, Dex9, Con26, Int23, Wis24, Cha23, s30/100fly, bite 3d6, 2 claws 2d6

BAB +10, Fort +14, Ref +7, Will +31, HP = 7d8 + 12d6 + 1d4 + 180 Con +30 Epic Toughness
Abilities: Str37, Dex13, Con29, Int25, Wis26, Cha22(28)
Initiative +16
Speed 30 / fly 100
AC: 51 (10 +1 dex +18 natural +13 wisdom +1 monk -2 size), flat footed 50, touch 23
Melee: IUS +21/+16/+11 (3d6+13), 2X Claws +19/+19/+14 (2d6+6), Bite +19 (3d6+6)

Special: Low Light Vision, Darkvision 60’, Immune to magic sleep, immune to paralysis

Items: repeating heavy crossbow +2, banded mail +4, heavy wooden shield +4, Cloak of Charisma +6, various scrolls, Manual of quickness in action +4, Tome of leadership and influence +4, Tome of understanding +4, Pearls of Power (two 9ths, two 6ths), handy haversack, monk’s belt, howdah (holds 4 medium creatures), eight sundark goggles, adventuring gear

Spells Already Cast:
Opalescent Glare (permanent) L6 (save or die if evil foe is 5HD or fewer, otherwise, save or fear)

Polymorph Any Object (Aspect of Bahamut) permanent and undispellable via supernatural wish

Further spells to cast at L20 (up to L9 Spells, with up to 14 DMM persists from combined pool of 86 rebuke/turnings), and with Ability Enhancer feat applied (+2 ability bonus to transmutation spells that enhance ability scores) to the following spells: Nixie’s Grace, Greater Visage of the Deity, Divine Power, Owl’s Insight, Bite of the Werebear, Righteous Might, Snowsong, and Righteous Aura.

Persist ‘Nixie’s Grace’ L6 via miracle L9 (DMM) DR5/cold iron, enhancement bonuses: +4 Wis +8 dex +10 cha

Superior Resistance (L6) lasts 24 hours (+6 to saves)

Greater Luminous Armor (L4) lasts 1hr/level, 24 hours with Divine Spell Power feat (+8 armor bonus), glow like a daylight spell

Energy Immunity: Fire (L6, lasts 24 hours)

Energy Immunity: Electricity (L6, lasts 24 hours)

Energy Immunity: Sonic (L6, lasts 24 hours)

Persistent Darkfire (L3, cast at L6: Maximized, DMM Persist and DMM Energy Admixture, with Enhance Spell epic feat): 60 fire damage + 60 acid damage

Persistent Greater Visage of the Deity L9 (DMM) (extra wings?, +1natural armor, immunity to acid, cold, disease, +4 to saves vs poison, Untyped bonuses: +6 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, +4 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha

Persistent L1 (cast at L7) Conviction (+5 morale to saves)

Persistent Divine Favor (Cast at L7) L1 (+3 luck to attack and damage)

Persistent Divine Power(DMM) L4 (+8 str, +1HP/CL (20), BAB=HD=20))

Persistent Holy Star L7 (DMM) cast with Divine Spell Power, Energy Admixture (Acid), Divine Metamagic Energy Admixture (Acid) and Enhance Spell feats: either a +6 circ bonus to AC or 1d4+3 spell turning or 90’ 12d6 fire bolt (as ranged weapon) switchable as a free action

Persistent Holy Aura L8, (DMM):SR25+4 defl AC, +4 res saves, blind attackers who hit in melee, protects from possession

Persistent ‘Owl’s Insight’ L5 via miracle L9 (DMM+Div Spell Power) +14 Wisdom (+ CL/2 as insight bonus to wisdom)

Persistent Bite of the Werebear (Miracle with invisible spell to avoid bearface) Druid 6, +18str, +4 dex, +10 con, +7 natural armor

Persistent Righteous Might (L5) (DMM) Size medium, DR 9/good, +6 size bonus to Str, +2 size bonus to Con (don’t gain size category because size altering magics don’t stack, but do gain the separate magical ‘size’ bonuses)

Persistent Snowsong: (L6 bard) cast with supernatural wish (DMM) 24hr fast healing 1, +4 morale bonus to charisma, +4 morale bonus to attack rolls, +4 insight bonus to AC, and cold resistance 15 for caster and allies within 30’, while enemies get a 20% chance of spell failure

Persistent Righteous Aura (L4 paladin) via miracle (DMM) +4 sacred bonus to charisma, explode upon death, dealing 20d6 damage to all enemies within 20’, while healing allies within 20’ by the same amount, while undead within the area take double the damage. Also, glow like a daylight spell.

Persistent Stormrage L8 (DMM) cast with Divine Spell Power, Energy Admixture (Acid), Divine Metamagic Energy Admixture (Acid) and Enhance Spell feats L8 Fly 40’, unaffected by thrown or ranged projectiles, eye lightning: 12d6 electricity, 12d6 acid.

Persistent Scintillating Scales (sorcerer L2, cast via supernatural wish) (DMM) natural armor becomes deflection bonus

Persistent Superior Magic Fang cast with supernatural wish (DMM) +5 to attack and damage for all natural weapons.

Bonuses from spells:

Saves: +6 resistance (superior resistance) (better than holy aura’s res), +5 morale (conviction)
Attack: BAB set to 20 by Divine Power, +3 luck Divine Favor) +4 morale Snowsong, +5 enhancement Superior Unarmed Strike.
Damage: +3 luck Divine Favor, +5 enhancement Superior Magic Fang, Maximized Darkfire to IUS
AC: +8 armor bonus (greater luminous armor), +18 base natural armor from form of Aspect of Bahamut, +7 enhancement to natural armor (Bite of the werebear), +1 untyped natural armor Greater Aspect of the Deity +4 deflection (Holy Aura), +6 circumstance (holy star), +4 insight Snowsong
Best Str bonus: +18 enhancement Bite of the Werebear +6 size righteous might +6 untyped from G Visage of the D
Best Dex Bonus: +8 enhancement Nixie’s Grace +4 Untyped from G Visage of the D
Best Con bonus: +10 enhancement Bite of the werebear +4 size righteous might +6 untyped from G Visage of the D
Best Int Bonus: +4 untyped from Greater Aspect of the Deity
Best Wis Bonus: +14 insight from Owl’s Insight and +6 untyped from Greater Aspect of the Deity
Best Cha Bonus: +10 enhancement Nixie’s Grace +6 untyped from G Visage of the D, +4 morale Snowsong

Other Spell Effects: Immunity to acid, cold, rire, electricity, sonic, disease, possession, 15 resistance to cold, +4 vs poison, +3 non-magical damage, blind foes that hit in melee DC37, SR25 against spells from evil foes, DR5/cold iron, DR9/good, 1d4+3 levels of spell turning or fire bolt

Bonuses from magic items:
Monk’s belt (AC and Unarmed Damage of a L5 monk, Wisdom Bonus to AC, +1 AC, IUS damage 1d6 small, 1d8 medium, 3d6 huge).

BAB +20, Fort +24, Ref +13, Will +41, HP = 7d8 + 12d6 + 1d4 + 380 Con +30 Epic Toughness
Abilities: Str67, Dex25, Con49, Int29, Wis46, Cha42
Initiative +11
Speed 30 / fly 100
AC: 78 (10 +7 dex +26 deflection (converted from natural armor) +8 armor +6 circumstance +4 insight, +18 wisdom, +1 monk -2 size)
Flat-footed AC: 71, Touch AC: 70
Melee: IUS +60/+55/+50/+45 (3d6+36 + 60 fire +60 acid), 2X Claws +58/+58 (2d6+22), Bite +58 (3d6+22)
Ranged: Fire Bolt (ranged touch) +34/+29/+24/+19 (12d6 fire +12d6 acid) (range 90’)
Or Dark Fire (thrown weapon): +34/+29/+24/+19 (60 fire +60 acid) (range 120’)
Or standard action ranged touch attack +34 (12d6 electricity +12d6 acid) (range 100’)
Special: Low Light Vision, Darkvision 60’, Immune to magic sleep, paralysis, acid, cold, rire, electricity, sonic, disease, possession, projectiles, and thrown weapons, 15 resistance to cold, +4 vs poison, +3 non-magical damage, blind foes that hit you (vs DC of Holy Aura spell), SR25 against spells from evil foes, DR5/cold iron, DR9/good, 1d4+3 levels of spell turning or fire bolt, opalescent glare, fire bolt (12d6 ray), electrical eyes (10d6 ray), opalescent glare effect, magic flight speed, feathered wings, glows like a torch

Items: repeating heavy crossbow +2, banded mail +4, heavy wooden shield +4, Cloak of Charisma +6, various scrolls, Manual of quickness in action +4, Tome of leadership and influence +4, Tome of understanding +4, Pearls of Power (two 9ths, two 6ths), handy haversack, monk’s belt, howdah (holds 4 medium creatures), eight sundark goggles, adventuring gear

Tactics: Goldie can hover above the battlefield, raining down bolts of acid fire and acid electricity, engaging with tooth and claw when necessary. Additional spells, such as Implosion, Firestorm, Righteous Smite, Destruction, Flamestrike and Boreal Wind are kept in reserve, favoring enhanced lower level spells such as Deific Vengeance and Darkfire, further empowered with Energy Admixture. He can act as a base or hospital for up to 8 small kobolds in his Howdah, and has 8 sundark goggles so his passengers can withstand his constant glowing.

Now, Goldie protects his clan, rallies them, leads them into battle, even heals them up all in dragon form, but that’s not his ultimate goal. After using his supernatural wish ability to transform into a true gold dragon (although that is beyond the HD limit of this contest) - probably an old gold dragon - and wishing up a complete set of +5 tomes and manuals and any other magic item he desires, there’s nothing stopping him from offering a similar service to the rest of his clan…

[daremetoidareyo]

Entrant #3: Groesse Perte, the Sonic Serpent



Groesse Perte, the Sonic Serpent

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/22/af/68/22af68916889561c2079552a9f9e7fea.jpg
Credit: FleurDelyse on DeviantArt (https://www.deviantart.com/fleurdelyse/art/Dragon-Portrait-01-132518905)


There once was a small Kobold, who managed to grow quite old,
So she sang and she danced west, then lay herself down to rest,
Surprised she had woke at all, now over two stories tall,
As a full dragon in truth, as she once dreamt in her youth,
To tower over her kin, as her new story begins.

As a Dragonwrought Battle Kobold, the only real signs Groesee had shown in her early life was a penchant for music, and a devout purpose to protect her tribe. As a more slender, serpentine Kobold, she could wend her way through tighter spots in the mines, searching further and finding dangers before too late. Her four legs allowed her to climb easily through the tunnels and up the walls to look for treasures.

After readying herself to die, she instead had a massive growth spurt into a full draconic form, sprouting wings and increasing in size a hundredfold! Luckily, she remained just as sepentine as before, continuing to wend her fearsome length around and between their structures and tunnels. Her newfound purpose is to use her stature to defend her people, using her newfound strength and magical powers to build up her homeland and start her own family and hoard-home.

As other Battle Dragons before her, she uses her musical abilities to bolster her allies, her self, and even her own arcane/divine magics. Her wardance trembles the earth, her body wrapped in protective magics as she leaps into battle. Whereas most dragons are as easy to hit as the hulks they are, Groesse's coiled body twists and turns, making herself a difficult target to track.

Even in her new scale, Groesse can squeeze through all but the narrowest halls, allowing her to continue her exploration of the mines, homesteads, and world at large. She seeks to discover new ways to keep her tribe safe and protected, rooting out the causes of harm and prejudice against her people.

32 Point Buy: 09 / 14 / 08 / 17 / 14 / 14

Kobold(SRD) RHD 1, LA +0
Small Humanoid, -4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, Darkvision 60', +1 NA

Kobold(Web) LA +0
1d3 Claws, 1d3 Bite, Slight Build, Martial Weapon(Light Pick), Martial Weapon(Heavy Pick)

Tauric(SS) LA +0 (Ignoring any Beast LA)
Combine Humanoid(Mental) and Beast(Physical) abilities, RHD and all special qualities.

MageBred(ECB) Winged(SS) Phnxkin(DrM) RHD 2, LA +1
+6 Str, +10 Dex, +6 Con, +2 Wis, +4 NA, 2 Claws, Bite, Pounce, Endurance, +CON vs. Spells, 70' Fly, 50' Move, 25' Climb, Auran

Size Increase, Small to Collosal(SRD)
+36 Str, -6 Dex, +18 Con, +14 NA, -9 AC / Attack

Advancing Dragons(SRD)
"A standard dragon gains one “virtual age category” for every 3 Hit Dice it gains beyond the great wyrm stage."
"A dragon that is Small as a wyrmling and never reaches Colossal size is in the ordinary group..."
"An ordinary dragon becomes Colossal when it gains one age category (3 Hit Dice) beyond great wyrm."
"When a dragon becomes Colossal, its fly speed increases by 50 feet and its maneuverability becomes clumsy."
"The great wyrm’s damage reduction increases to 15/epic after exceeding the great wyrm age category and the dragon’s natural weapons count as epic weapons"
Total: +1 NA / HD, and +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 CL, +2 SR, +2 Breath Weapon Damage die per virtual Age

True Dragon(SRD)
* Colossal, 30 ft./20 ft. (30 ft. with bite) Reach, 4d8 Bite, 4d6 Claws, 2d8 Wings, 4d6 Tail, 4d8 Crush, 2d8 Tail Sweep
* Crush(Ex), Tail Sweep(Ex), Frightful Presence (Ex), Immunities(Ex), Blindsense(Ex)
* ... Listen, Search, and Spot ... Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge(any), Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device ... All these skills are considered class skills for dragons.

Battle Dragon(Drc)
Perform as a Class Skill, Immunity to Sonic



LvlClassSrc CLDiv CLHDBABFortRefWillSkillFeatsBoostAbilitiesSkills

Kobold Race
Martial Weapon(Heavy Pick),
Martial Weapon(Light Pick)Small, Slight Build, Bite, 2x Claws,
+2 Craft(Traps) / Pro(Miner) / Search,
Darkvision 60ft, Draconic

Great Wyrm
+3 Int,+3 Wis, +3 Cha

1Dragon 1 (Kobold)10122224DragonwroughtImmunities(Sleep, Paralysis, Sonic),
Frightful Presence, Blindsense4 Concentration, 4 Diplomacy, 4 Intimidate,
4 Know(Arcana, Nature, Religion),
1 Know(Dungeon, Local, Planes, History),
4 Listen, 4 Perform(String, Dance), 4 Sense Motive

LoreDrake2
Dragon HD reduced to D10

Tauric


2Dragon 2 (Phynxkin)1011116+4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 NA,
Claws(Feet), Pounce, +Con vs. Spells,
+10' Move, Climb Speed(1/2 Move)4 Concentration, 5 Diplomacy, 5 Intimidate,
5 Know(Arcana, Nature), 4 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Dungeon, Local, Planes, History), 5 Listen,
5 Perform(String, Dance), 4 Sense Motive, 2 Tumble

Winged
Fly(Perfect) 20'+Move, +4 Dex, Auran

3Dragon 3 (Magebred)1010006Initiate of Aasterinian,
Kobold Endurance+2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +2 NA, +10' Move4 Concentration, 5 Diplomacy, 5 Intimidate,
6 Know(Arcana, Nature), 5 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Dungeon, Local, Planes, History), 6 Listen,
6 Perform(String, Dance), 5 Sense Motive,
1 Spellcraft, 3 Tumble

Great Wyrm +1 Age2
Collossal (+36 Str, -6 Dex, +18 Con,
+14 NA, -9 AC/Attack), +2 Str, +2 Con,
+3 NA, +2 CL, +2 SR, +50' Fly, DR 15/Epic

4Cloistered Cleric 11602026Knowledge Devotion,
Extend SpellSTRLight Armor, Aura, Rebuke Dragons, Lore,
Domains(Knowledge, Planning, Magic),
Spont. Cure Wounds4 Concen, 5 Decipher, 5 Diplomacy, 5 Intimidate,
6 Know(Arcana), 6 Know(Nature), 5 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Dungeon, Local, Planes, History), 6 Listen,
6 Perform(String, Dance), 5 Sense Motive,
5 Sleight of Hand, 2 Spellcraft, 3 Tumble

5Cloistered Cleric 216110164 Concen, 5 Decipher, 5 Diplomacy, 5 Intimidate,
8 Know(Arcana), 6 Know(Nature), 5 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Dungeon, Local, Planes, History), 6 Listen,
6 Perform(String, Dance), 5 Sense, 7 Sleight,
1 Speak(Druidic), 8 Spellcraft, 3 Tumble

Spells (Purchase)
Craft Wondrous Item
Cast Embrace + Shun the Dark Chaos, Lose Feat(Martial Proficiency), Cost: (2450x2) 4950 GP

6Dweomerkeeper 111600022Combat CastingMantle of Spells 14 Concen, 5 Decipher, 5 Diplomacy, 5 Intimidate,
9 Know(Arcana), 7 Know(Nature), 5 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Dungeon, Local, Planes, History), 6 Listen,
6 Perform(String, Dance), 2 Prof(Astro), 5 Sense,
7 Sleight, 1 Speak(Druidic), 9 Spellcraft, 4 Tumble

Ritual1

Greater Draconic Rite of Passage

7Church Inquisitor 11800024Inquisition Domain, Detect Evil4 Concen, 7 Decipher, 5 Diplo, 7 Gather, 5 Intimidate,
9 Know(Arcana), 7 Know(Nature), 5 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Dungeon, Local, Planes, History), 6 Listen,
6 Perform(String, Dance), 2 Prof(Astro), 5 Sense,
7 Sleight, 1 Speak(Druidic), 9 Spellcraft, 4 Tumble

8Dweomerkeeper 211610012CHAArcane Sight4 Concen, 7 Decipher, 11 Diplo, 7 Gather, 5 Intimidate,
10 Know(Arcana), 7 Know(Nature), 5 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Dungeon, Local, Planes, History), 6 Listen,
6 Perform(String, Dance), 2 Prof(Astro), 5 Sense,
7 Sleight, 1 Speak(Druidic), 9 Spellcraft, 4 Tumble

Otyugh Hole
Iron Will
Cost: 3000 GP

Spells (Purchase)
Dodge, Mobility
Cast Embrace the Dark Chaos + Shun the Dark Chaos(x2), Lose Feats(Martial + Iron Will), Cost: 9900 GP

9Spelldancer 11600224Persist SpellSpelldance4 Concen, 7 Decipher, 11 Diplo, 7 Gather, 5 Intimidate,
11 Know(Arcana), 7 Know(Nature), 5 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Dungeon, Local, Planes, History), 6 Listen,
10 Perf(String), 6 Perf(Dance), 2 Prof(Astro), 5 Sense,
7 Sleight, 1 Speak(Druidic), 12 Spellcraft, 5 Tumble

10Spelldancer 21610114Enthralling Dance, Evasion4 Concen, 7 Decipher, 11 Diplo, 7 Gather, 5 Intimidate,
12 Know(Arcana), 7 Know(Nature), 5 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Dungeon, Local, Planes, History), 6 Listen,
13 Perf(String), 6 Perf(Dance), 6 Prof(Astro), 5 Sense,
7 Sleight, 1 Speak(Druidic), 13 Spellcraft, 5 Tumble

11Fochlucan Lyrist 111610226Bardic Music4 Concen, 7 Decipher, 14 Diplo, 7 Gather, 5 Intimidate,
13 Know(Arcana), 7 Know(Nature), 5 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Dungeon, Local, Planes, History), 13 Listen,
13 Perf(String), 6 Perf(Dance), 6 Prof(Astro), 5 Sense,
7 Sleight, 1 Speak(Druidic), 13 Spellcraft, 5 Tumble

12Sublime Chord 11600024SnatchWISBardic Lore, Bardic Music4 Concen, 7 Decipher, 15 Diplo, 7 Gather, 5 Intimidate,
15 Know(Arcana), 7 Know(Nature), 5 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Dungeon, Local, Planes, History), 15 Listen,
13 Perf(String), 8 Perf(Dance), 6 Prof(Astro), 5 Sense,
7 Sleight, 1 Speak(Druidic), 15 Spellcraft, 5 Tumble

13Fochlucan Lyrist 2116101164 Concen, 7 Decipher, 16 Diplo, 7 Gather, 6 Intimidate,
15 Know(Arcana), 7 Know(Nature), 5 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Dungeon, Local, Planes, History), 16 Listen,
13 Perf(String), 8 Perf(Dance), 6 Prof(Astro), 10 Sense,
7 Sleight, 1 Speak(Druidic), 16 Spellcraft, 5 Tumble

14Fochlucan Lyrist 3116110064 Concen, 7 Decipher, 17 Diplo, 7 Gather, 12 Intimidate,
15 Know(Arcana), 7 Know(Nature), 5 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Dungeon, Local, Planes, History), 17 Listen,
13 Perf(String), 8 Perf(Dance), 6 Prof(Astro), 12 Sense,
7 Sleight, 1 Speak(Druidic), 17 Spellcraft, 5 Tumble

15Fochlucan Lyrist 411610116Practiced Spellcaster(Sorc)4 Concen, 7 Decipher, 18 Diplo, 7 Gather, 15 Intimidate,
15 Know(Arcana), 7 Know(Nature), 5 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Dungeon, Local, Planes, History), 18 Listen,
13 Perf(String), 8 Perf(Dance), 6 Prof(Astro), 15 Sense,
7 Sleight, 1 Speak, 2 Spot, 18 Spellcraft, 5 Tumble

16Fochlucan Lyrist 511610006CHA4 Concen, 7 Decipher, 19 Diplo, 7 Gather, 19 Intimidate,
15 Know(Arcana), 7 Know(Nature), 5 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Dungeon, Local, Planes, History), 19 Listen,
13 Perf(String), 8 Perf(Dance), 6 Prof(Astro), 19 Sense,
7 Sleight, 1 Speak, 3 Spot, 19 Spellcraft, 5 Tumble

17Fochlucan Lyrist 6116111164 Concen, 7 Decipher, 20 Diplo, 7 Gather, 20 Intimidate,
15 Know(Arcana), 7 Know(Nature), 5 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Dungeon, Local, Planes, History), 20 Listen,
13 Perf(String), 8 Perf(Dance), 6 Prof(Astro), 20 Sense,
7 Sleight, 1 Speak, 9 Spot, 20 Spellcraft, 5 Tumble

18Fochlucan Lyrist 711610006Practiced Spellcaster(Clrc)4 Concen, 7 Decipher, 20 Diplo, 7 Gather, 20 Intimidate,
15 Know(Arcana), 7 Know(Nature), 5 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Dungeon, Local, Planes, History), 20 Listen,
13 Perf(String), 8 Perf(Dance), 6 Prof(Astro), 20 Sense,
7 Sleight, 1 Speak, 20 Spot, 20 Spellcraft, 5 Tumble

19Fochlucan Lyrist 8116101164 Concen, 7 Decipher, 22 Diplo, 7 Gather, 22 Intimidate,
15 Know(Arcana), 7 Know(Nature), 5 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Dungeon, Local, Planes, History), 22 Listen,
13 Perf(String), 8 Perf(Dance), 6 Prof(Astro), 22 Sense,
7 Sleight, 1 Speak, 21 Spot, 22 Spellcraft, 5 Tumble

20Fochlucan Lyrist 911611006CHA4 Concen, 7 Decipher, 23 Diplo, 7 Gather, 23 Intimidate,
19 Know(Arcana), 7 Know(Nature), 5 Know(Religion),
1 Know(Dungeon, Local, Planes, History), 23 Listen,
13 Perf(String), 8 Perf(Dance), 6 Prof(Astro), 23 Sense,
7 Sleight, 1 Speak, 23 Spot, 23 Spellcraft, 5 Tumble



Level 3 Feats:
1) A Kobold may gain Kobold Endurance instead of Endurance as a bonus feat, at any time (RotD)
2) True Dragons are automatically qualified for any feat with the Dragonblooded pre-req (RotD p4)

Otyugh Hole(CS) - A 3k vacay for the Iron Will feat.

Druidic(SRD) - The only restriction on Druidic is teaching it, not learning it. You may learn it from any Ex-Druid/Blighter(CD) without consequence.

Buying Spells(SRD) - "If a spell's total cost is above 3000GP, it's generally unavailable." At 2450GP per casting, you should be able to get your hands on it, though you may have to go to a large city / guild to find a caster.

Fochlucan Lyrist Entry -
1) Druidic (see above) per the Speak Language skill.
2) Bardic Knowledge, via Lore. Per the Cloistered Cleric(SRD): "This ability is identical to the bard's bardic knowledge class feature, using the cloistered cleric's class level in place of the bard level." Identical means it acts in all the same ways, which should include as a pre-requisite.
3) Evasion, via Spelldancer 2.
4) Perform, via Dragonwrought + Battle Dragon, granting it as a class skill for all RHD / class levels.

Sources outside the SRD:
(MM2) Snatch
(Drc) Battle Dragon, Multisnatch
(RotD)Dragonwrought, Kobold Endurance, Kobold Rituals
(DrM) Initiate of Aasterinian, Phynxkin, Rebuke Dragons
(DoE) LoreDrake
(CA) Fochlucan Lyrist, Persistent Spell, Sublime Chord
(CC) Knowledge Devotion
(CD) Blighter, Church Inquisitor, Dweomerkeeper
(CS) Otyugh Hole
(SS) Tauric, Winged
(ECB) MageBred
(Web, http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) Kobold, Kobold Rituals

Groesse Perte, the Sonic Serpent
Neutral Good Colossal Female Kobold (Dragon) 30'/20' Reach
Cleric 2 / Dweomerkeeper 2 / Church Inquisitor / Spelldancer 2 / Fochlucan Lyrist / Sublime Chord
Level 12, Init 4, HP 253, Speed 50', Fly(Clumsy) 120', Climb 25'
Abilities Str 54, Dex 18, Con 34, Int 20, Wis 18, Cha 18
Fort 18, Ref 12, Will 22, Base Attack Bonus 7, Grapple[B] 45
[B]AC 31, Touch 10, Flat-footed 27, DR 15 / Epic
Unarmored (+0 Armor, +4 Dex, +21 Natural, -4 Size)
Epic Claws +25 / +25 / +25 / +25 (4d6+22, x2) 20'
Epic Wings +20 / +20 (2d8+11, x2) 20'
Epic Bite +20 (4d8+11, x2) 30'
Epic Tail +20 (4d6+11, x2) 20'
Special Abilities Blindsense, Darkvision 60', Immunities(Sleep, Paralysis, Sonic),
Slight Build, Pounce, Crush, Tail Sweep, Frightful Presence, Aura(Good), Rebuke Dragons,
Lore, Mantle of Spells(Balor Nimbus), Domains(Knowledge, Planning, Magic, Inquisition),
Spelldance, Enthralling Dance, Evasion, Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage(+1),
Proficient with light armor and simple weapons
Feats Dragonwrought, Initiate of Aasterinian, Kobold Endurance, Knowledge Devotion,
Extend Spell, Craft Wondrous Item, Combat Casting, Dodge, Mobility, Persist Spell, Snatch
Supernatural Abilities (CL 12) Arcane Sight at/will
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12) Detect Evil at/will, Identify 3/day
Spells (Sublime Chord CL 9, DC 14+Lvl) 3/1
Lvl 4 - Dimension Door, Sirene's Grace(SpC, Brd4),
Lvl 5 - Wall of Greater Dispel Magic(SpC, Brd5)
Spells (Sorcerer CL 9, DC 14+Lvl) 7/7/6/4
Lvl 1 - Blockade, Charm Person, Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Silent Image,
Lvl 2 - Glitterdust, Scorching Ray, Shatter,
Lvl 3 - Dispel Magic, Haste,
Lvl 4 - Celerity(PH2)
Spells (Cleric CL 8, DC 14+Lvl) 5+1/4+1/4+1/3+1
Lvl 1 - 5 + Detect Secret Doors,
Lvl 2 - 4 + Detect Thoughts,
Lvl 3 - 4 + Dispel Magic,
Lvl 4 - 3 + Divination
Skills 32 Jump, 30 Climb, 23 Diplomancy, 22 Spellcraft, 22 Swim, 20 Know(Arcana),
19 Listen, 19 Perform(String), 16 Concentration, 14 Perform(Dance), 13 Sleight of Hand,
12 Decipher Script, 12 Know(Nature), 11 Gather Info, 11 Intimidate, 10 Know(Religion),
10 Pro(Astrology), 9 Sense, 9 Tumble, 6 Know(Dungeon, Local, Planes, History), 6 Balance,
Speak(Abyssal, Auran, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Druidic, Dwarven, Elven, Sylvan)
Additional +4 Dispel checks, UMD as Wizard
Condition No items, before any spells / buffs

Choose Cleric spells as needed, with the following standouts:
Domain Spells
Cleric 1st: Detect Chaos, Nystul's Magic Aura, Detect Secret Doors, Deathwatch
Cleric 2nd: Zone of Truth, Identify, Detect Thoughts, Augury
Cleric 3rd: Detect Thoughts, Dispel Magic, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Cleric 4th: Discern Lies, Imbue With Spell Ability, Divination, Status
Extra Spells via Initiate of Aasterinian
Cleric 1st: Expeditious Retreat
Cleric 2nd: Soul of Anarchy
Cleric 4th: Invisibility, Greater
Spontaneously cast Balor Nimbus as Cleric via Mantle of Spells

Breakdown:
Groesse can safely spelldance for 14(2+Con) rounds, or two Persistant+Extended spells per day. The first spell after this requires a DC 24 Fort Save, which she can easily make. This allows her to safely persist 6 spells at any one time, Arcane or Divine, by spending two minutes per day.

A good selection of persistenet spells for Level 12 would be:
Balor Nimbus(SpC, Cler2) Automatic 6d6 Fire damage per round per grappled opponent
Sirene's Grace(SpC, Bard4) +4 Dex/Cha, Cha to AC, +8 Perform, Water-breathing, Swim
Greater Invisibility(SRD, Cler4) Endless Invisibility can be quite useful
Freedom of Movement(SRD, Cler4) Immunity to movement restrictions
Sheltered Vitality(SpC, Cler4) Immunities to Fatigue/Exhaust, Ability Damage/Drain
Death Ward(SRD, Cler4) Immunities to Death, Level Drain, Negative Energy


Additional spells to consider:
Blinding Beauty(BoE, Bard4) Free action Blindness in 60ft. Watch for Friendly Fire.
Divine Power(SRD, Cler4) +6 Str, +5 BAB means +8 Grapple, +3 damage. Boring, but effective.


Groesse can use all Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Bard magical devices, giving her a wide array of utility from her dragon hoard. She doesn't require weapons/armor, (DR Epic makes her natural weapons Epic to bypass DR) but she could wear Gargantuan light armor made for Dragons if she desires, with an eye on ASF chance. Most likely, she will spend her money perfecting herself (see above) and gathering magical trinkets to use as needed.

It's usually hard to play as a Colossal creature without massive RHD/LA penalties, but a True Dragonwrought
Kobold can do it with 3 RHD and 0 LA, via a Virtual Age Category boost, automatically scaling them
up to Colossal, granting a full suite of natural weapons and attack abilities, while mixing in an important
Kobold racial feature... Slight Build!

The Kobold's Slight Build racial ability is a gargantuan :smallwink: boost to a Colossal creature. Being
treated as Gargantuan halves the -8 size penalty to only -4, essentially a +4 boost to Attack and AC that
normal Dragons do not enjoy. Additionally, it allows such a large creature to enter smaller spaces: Her 30'
width squeezes into a 20' space with no penalty, or as small as a 10' space with the usual penalties.

The main difficulty is getting those 3 RHD. A Venerable Kobold usually has zero RHD, as they lose their
usual one to Class levels... But, when we add in extra RHD, we can recover that lost RHD. There are
precious few ways to add in the necessary two RHD, but Tauric or Multi-headed from Savage Species will do.
Tauric allows us to choose any animal/beast for a bottom half, and MageBred is useful to add on an extra
RHD as needed. It also allows us to ignore LA on the combined creature, but for this trick one I only used
Winged to ensure a Fly Speed (as it's debatable if a Virtual Age's +50' Fly speed grants one if missing.)

By grabbing another Draconic creature, the Phynxkin, we can add two foot claws (4 Total with her hand-claws)
and Pounce, to devastating effect: On a charge, Groesse can make four claw attacks on four creatures
within 20' of her 30' square, with four free grapple attempts to rear up on her hind legs and grapple-hold
four opponents at once (two in her hand-claws, two in her front-claws) for automatic damage, all while
not being considered grappled herself. If needed, she can add in a 30' reach Bite attack to grapple a
fifth in the same manner. This is done in combination with the Draconic feat Snatch, which could be
further improved with it's corresponding feat chain (Flaws would be very useful here).

At 3HD, a Dragonwrought Great Wyrm+ Loredrake Kobold has the spellcasting ability of a 4th level Sorcerer.
While we could pursue early Epic spellcasting, I instead wanted to expand upon the Holy Song aspect of
the Battle Dragon, going for dual-casting with a Sonic/Musical focus. This trades power for versatility,
though by level 20 we do gain both 9th(Arcane) and 8th(Divine) level spells. This build gains 9 songs/day,
musically persists personal spells, has a +10 to Lore checks, and offers many wide-area buff opportunities.

The musical dual-caster path is very feat-intensive (Spelldancer), which is one more way the Kobold brings
extra to the table with it's two Racial bonus feats. While two Martial Weapon proficiencies are
near-worthless as given, they are quite valuable when you can afford to swap them out for other (also
nearly-worhtless) feat taxes. By spending just under 5k each, we can turn those instead into Dodge and
Mobility.. Not exciting, just required. Thankfully, this build can do without the magic weapons + armor,
so money should be in high supply, especially by 8th level when the need arises. One bonus feat will need
to be traded for a crafting feat earlier (Level 6), but 5k is easy even then, and adding 3k for the
Otyugh Hole is still well under 1/4 WBL.

[daremetoidareyo]

Entrant #4: Puk’alib’an, Ancient Sage of War


Puk’alib’an, Ancient Sage of War
Race: Arctic Kobold --> Very Old Silver Dragon --> Great Wyrm Silver Dragon
Starting Age: Venerable (~700 – Max Age is 742.5 years)
Sovereign Archetype: Loredrake (+2 Effective Sorcerer Level once able to cast spontaneous Arcane spells)
Alignment: Lawful Good
Flaws: Inattentive (-4 Listen, -4 Spot), Vulnerable (-1 AC)

Stub:
Duskblade 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 1/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Shaper of Form 1/Abjurant Champion 2/Hulking Hurler 2/War Hulk 6

Background:

A lone outpost on the edge of the arctic tundra guards the only pass through an enormous glacier stretching across the horizon. A small cadre of Kobolds, mostly young and untried, manned this outpost guarding the far edges of their arctic home.
A young soldier was woken from his rest shift to panicked cries, followed shortly by the deafening discharges of combat spells loosed by the will of many mages.
The soldier grabbed his kit and sped to the walls, heart sinking as he beheld the massive host spread out before them; how the army of men had approached without warning mattered not, for they were undeniably there. The commander of the wall, a grizzled veteran of many years serving out his final tour on what should have been a soft duty called over the young kobold.
“Run back to our people as swiftly as your feet can take you. We are lost and the City must prepare!”
“But –”
“That is an order soldier! We’ll hold them as long as we can, but you must warn our people or we will have died for nothing. Go!”
The young soldier bowed low, and with a final look back fled. He slipped out the back of the outpost and sped off into the pass, the sounds of his compatriots buying time with their lives following on his heels.
But the kobolds of the outpost, for all their bravery, had not been able to buy much time. Eldritch energies streaked across the sky above the fleeing kobold and slammed into the glacier above his head, causing tons of ice to fall with a thunderous roar. The kobold barely had time to begin to shriek in fear when a distortion in the air encased him, causing the falling ice to part around the terrified creature. An enormous Silver Dragon appeared next to the bewildered kobold and with a gesture the shimmering wall of force dissipated.
“Puk’alib’an…” the word was a soft breath, almost reverent as the young kobold beheld the ancient champion of his people. “…you’re real!”
The ancient wyrm chuckled softly, the sound thrumming through the air and setting the exhausted young kobold’s bones thrumming.
“Indeed I am little one, and it seems I am needed once again.”
The old warrior looked back at the approaching host, further magics splashing harmlessly off his silvered hide, and his eyes narrowed as he beheld the armies gathered to invade his homeland. The young kobold soldier visibly steeled himself and said:
“I want to help.”
“No need to hurry little one; your time will come.” The ghost of a wry smile crept across his lips. “You remind me much of myself when I was newly wrought and barely dry from the shell.”
One massive claw reached out and grasped a chunk of fallen ice many times the size of the kobold, hefting it in a negligent grip. As the kobold watched the ice warped and changed, taking on a dark metallic hue.
“Run now child, and warn your clan. I will hold them here.”
As the kobold turned and sped back along the path to his people the ancient wyrm spoke words of power and hurled the once-ice towards the gathered host. The screams of dying men accompanied the kobold for many minutes along his way.





Ability
Initial
Racial
Venerable
ECL 20
ECL 29


Strength
14
12
12
29 (+5 levels, +12 War Hulk)
39 (+10 Age Categories)


Dexterity
8
10
10
10
10


Constitution
14
12
12
12
20 (+8 Age Categories)


Intelligence
11
11
14
14
20 (+6 Age Categories)


Wisdom
9
7
10
10
16 (+6 Age Categories)


Charisma
18
18
21
21
27 (+6 Age Categories)





Build Progression


Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Duskblade 1
+1
+2
+0
+2
Balance 2(4cc), Concentration 4, Craft (Alchemy) 4, Craft (Sculpture) 4
Dragonwrought (Silver Heritage), Extended Life Span (F1), Extended Lifespan (F2)
Arcane Attunement, Armored Mage


2nd
Duskblade 2
+2
+3
+0
+3
Concentration 5(1), Craft (Alchemy) 5(1), Craft (Sculpture) 5(1), Know. Arcana 1, Balance 2
Combat Casting (B)
-


3rd
Fighter 1
+3
+5
+0
+3
Concentration 6(2cc), Spellcraft 2, Balance 2, Craft (Alchemy) 5, Craft (Sculpture) 5, Know. Arcana 1
Great Fortitude, Power Attack (B)
Hit & Run Fighter ACF: +2 Initiative, +Dex to damage vs flat-footed


4th
Fighter 2
+4
+6
+0
+3
Craft (Sculpture) 7(2), Spellcraft 4(2) , Balance 2, Concentration 6, Craft (Alchemy) 5, Know. Arcana 1
Point Blank Shot (B)
-


5th
Warblade 1
+5
+8
+0
+3
Balance 8(6), Concentration 6, Craft (Alchemy) 5, Craft (Sculpture) 7, Know. Arcana 1, Spellcraft 4
-
Battle Clarity (Reflex Saves), Weapon Aptitude, Initiator Level: 3


6th
Bloodstorm Blade 1
+6
+10
+0
+3
Concentration 7(1), Craft (Sculpture) 8(1), Know. Arcana 3(4cc) , Balance 8, Craft (Alchemy) 5, Spellcraft 4
Draconic Bloodline, Throw Anything (B)
Returning Attacks, Throw Anything, Weapon Aptitude


7th
Bloodstorm Blade 2
+7
+11
+0
+3
Concentration 9(2), Know. Arcana 4(2cc), Spellcraft 6(2) , Balance 8, Craft (Alchemy) 5, Craft (Sculpture) 8
-
Martial Throw, Thunderous Throw


8th
Bloodstorm Blade 3
+8
+11
+1
+4
Concentration 11(2), Know. Arcana 5(2cc), Spellcraft 8(2) , Balance 8, Craft (Alchemy) 5, Craft (Sculpture) 8
Weapon Focus (Any) (B)
Bonus Fighter Feat


9th
Bloodstorm Blade 4
+9
+12
+1
+4
Concentration 12(1), Craft (Sculpture) 9(1), Know. Arcana 6(2cc), Spellcraft 10(2) , Balance 8, Craft (Alchemy) 5
Spell Focus (Transmutation)
Lightning Ricochet


10th
Shaper of Form 1
+9
+14
+1
+6
Know. Arcana 7(2), Spellcraft 12(2) , Balance 8, Concentration 12, Craft (Alchemy) 5, Craft (Sculpture) 8
-
Like Begets Like, Modify Self (Renaissance --> Silver Dragon), +1 Spellcasting (Sorcerer) (CL16)


Renaissance
Change Race from Arctic Kobold to Silver Dragon (Very Old)

Size: Huge
Speed: 40ft, fly 150 (poor)
Natural Armor: +30
DR15/magic
SR 27
Immunity to Acid, Cold, Vulnerability to Fire
Natural Weapons: 2x Claw 2d6, 1x Bite 2d8, 2x Wing 1d6, 1x Tail Slap 2d6, 1x Crush 4d6
Spellcasting: Sorcerer Spellcasting Level +13
SLAs: Fog Cloud 3/day, Control Winds 3/day, Feather Fall 2/day
Breath Weapon: Cone (Cold) 18d8 (DC 10 +1/2HD +Con)
Frightful Presence: DC 10 +1/2HD +Cha
Alternate Form 3/day
Cloudwalking


11th
Abjurant Champion 1
+10
+14
+1
+8
Know. Arcana 9(2), Spellcraft 14(2) , Balance 8, Concentration 12, Craft (Alchemy) 5, Craft (Sculpture) 9
-
Abjurant Armor, Extended Abjuration, +1 Spellcasting (Sorcerer) (CL17)


12th
Abjurant Champion 2
+11
+14
+1
+9
Know. Arcana 12(3), Spellcraft 15(1) , Balance 8, Concentration 12, Craft (Alchemy) 5, Craft (Sculpture) 9
Cleave
Swift Abjuration, +1 Spellcasting (Sorcerer) (CL 18)


13th
Hulking Hurler 1
+12
+4
+3
+9
Know. Arcana 14(4cc) , Balance 8, Concentration 12, Craft (Alchemy) 5, Craft (Sculpture) 9, Spellcraft 15
-
Catch Weapon, Really Throw Anything


14th
Hulking Hurler 2
+13
+14
+4
+9
Know. Arcana 15(2cc), Spellcraft 17(2) , Balance 8, Concentration 12, Craft (Alchemy) 5, Craft (Sculpture) 9
-
Two-Handed Hurl Trick (Overburdened Heave)


15th
War Hulk 1
+13
+16
+4
+9
Know. Arcana 17(4cc), Balance 8, Concentration 12, Craft (Alchemy) 5, Craft (Sculpture) 9, Spellcraft 17
Ability Enhancer
No Time To Think, Ability Boost (Str +2)


16th
War Hulk 2
+13
+17
+4
+9
Know. Arcana 18(2cc), Spellcraft 19(2) , Balance 8, Concentration 12, Craft (Alchemy) 5, Craft (Sculpture) 9
-
Great Swing, Ability Boost (Str +2)


17th
War Hulk 3
+13
+17
+5
+10
Know. Arcana 20(4cc) , Balance 8, Concentration 12, Craft (Alchemy) 5, Craft (Sculpture) 9, Spellcraft 19
-
Mighty Rock Throwing, Ability Boost (Str +2)


18th
War Hulk 4
+13
+18
+5
+10
Concentration 13(1), Know. Arcana 21(2cc), Spellcraft 21(2) , Balance 8, Craft (Alchemy) 5, Craft (Sculpture) 9
Spell Knowledge (Genesis, Wish)
Ability Boost (Str +2)


19th
War Hulk 5
+13
+18
+5
+10
Concentration 14(1), Know. Arcana 22(2cc), Spellcraft 22(1) , Balance 8, Craft (Alchemy) 5, Craft (Sculpture) 9
-
Ability Boost (Str +2)


20th
War Hulk 6
+13
+19
+6
+11
Concentration 15(1), Know. Arcana 23(2cc), Spellcraft 23(1) , Balance 8, Craft (Alchemy) 5, Craft (Sculpture) 9
-
Sweeping Boulder, Ability Boost (Str +2)


Genesis Vacation
Increase Age Category to Great Wyrm
Size: Colossal (space/reach 30ft/20ft (30ft w/bite)
Speed: 40ft, fly 200 (clumsy)
Abilities: +10 Str, +0 Dex, +8 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha
Natural Armor: +39
DR20/magic
SR 32
Immunity to Acid, Cold, Vulnerability to Fire
Natural Weapons: 2x Claw 4d6, 1x Bite 4d8, 2x Wing 2d8, 1x Tail Slap 4d6, 1x Crush 4d8, 1x Tail Sweep 2d8
Spellcasting: Sorcerer Spellcasting Level +19 (Total 24)
SLAs: Fog Cloud 3/day, Control Winds 3/day, Feather Fall 2/day, Control Weather 1/day, Reverse Gravity 1/day
Breath Weapon: Cone (Cold) 24d8 (DC 28)
Frightful Presence: DC 32
Alternate Form 3/day
Cloudwalking



ECL 23
Skills: Concentration 26 (11), Know. Arcana 26(3), Spellcraft 26(3), Use Magic Device 7, Balance 8, Craft (Alchemy) 5, Craft (Sculpture) 9
Feat @ 21HD: Epic Spellcasting

[/tr]

ECL 26
Skills: Concentration 29(3), Know. Arcana 29(3), Spellcraft 29(3), Use Magic Device 25(18), Balance 8, Craft (Alchemy) 5, Craft (Sculpture) 9
Feat @ 24HD: Improved Spell Capacity

[/tr]

ECL 29
Skills: Concentration 32(3), Know. Arcana 32(3), Spellcraft 32(3), Use Magic Device 32(7), Craft (Sculpture) 16(14cc), Balance 8, Craft (Alchemy) 5
Feat @ 27HD: Improved Spell Capacity





Martial Maneuvers Known:
Stance: Punishing Stance (IH)
Strikes/Boosts/Counters: Action Before Thought (Dia), Disarming Strike (IH), Steel Wind (IH)


Sorcerer Spells Known/Per Day


ECL 1-9


0th
1st


5/6
2/4+2


ECL 10-20


Level
0th
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


10
9/6
5/6+2
5/6+1
4/6+1
4/6+1
4/6+1
3/6
2/5
1/3
-/-


11
9/6
5/6+2
5/6+1
4/6+1
4/6+1
4/6+1
3/6
3/6
2/4
-/-


12
9/6
5/6+2
5/6+1
4/6+1
4/6+1
4/6+1
3/6
3/6
2/5
1/3


ECL 29


0th
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th
Epic


9/6
5/6+2
5/6+2
4/6+2
4/6+2
4/6+1
3/6+1
3/6+1
3/6+1
3/6
3/day



Duskblade Spellcasting:
0th: 4/day
1st: 3/day

Sorcerer Spells Known: (Only Shown When Added)
ECL 1-9:
0th:


@ECL 1: Detect Magic (Div), Mage Hand (Trans), Message (Trans), Launch Item (Trans), Prestidigitation (Univ)
@ECL 10: Amanuensis (Trans), Detect Poison (Div), Read Magic (Div), Stick (Trans)

1st:


@ECL 1: Nerveskitter (Trans), Grease (Conj)
@ECL 10: Expeditions Retreat (Trans), Ray of Enfeeblement (Necro), Shield (Abj)
Draconic Bloodline: Comprehend Languages (Div)

2nd:


@ECL 10: Heart of Air (Trans), Glitterdust (Conj), Mirror Image (Illus), Rope Trick (Trans), Wings of Cover (Evoc)
Draconic Bloodline: Darkvision (Trans)

3rd:


@ECL 10: Dispel Magic (Abjur), Haste (Trans), Heart of Water (Trans), Stinking Cloud (Conj)
Draconic Bloodline: Protection from Elements (Abjur)

4th:


@ECL 10: Dimension Door (Conjur), Divine Power (Evoc), Heart of Earth (Trans), Aerial Alacrity (Trans)
Draconic Bloodline: Fear (Necro)

5th:


@ECL 10: Teleport (Conj), Wall of Force (Evoc), Plane Shift (Conj), Trait Removal (Trans)
Draconic Bloodline: Mindfog (Ench)

6th:


@ECL 10: Disintegrate (Trans), Greater Dispel Magic (Abjur), Superior Resistance (Abjur)
Draconic Bloodline: True Seeing (Div)

7th:


@ECL 10: Bite of the Werebear (Trans), Brilliant Aura (Trans)
@ECL 11: Holy Word (Evoc)
Draconic Bloodline: Vision (Div)

8th:


@ECL 10: Arcane Fusion, Greater (Univ)
@ECL 11: Greater Shadow Evocation (Illus)
@ECL21-29: Polymorph Any Object (Trans)
Draconic Bloodline: Mind Blank (Abj)

9th:


@ECL 11: Time Stop (Trans)
@ECL 12: Energy Drain (Necro)
@ECL 18: Genesis (Conj), Wish (Univ)
@ECL 21-29: Summon Monster 9 (Conj)
Draconic Bloodline: Dominate Monster (Ench)




Build Notes:
So, what’s going on here? When tackling the challenge of using a Dragonwrought Kobold I wanted to make sure that my build hinged upon being a Dragonwrought Kobold without simply rehashing the same things everyone’s seen before. In my research it quickly became apparent there’s some low-hanging fruit when it comes to these little monsters, and to some extent I make use of them. It would be criminal to not be a Venerable Kobold, Sovereign Archetypes are interesting (particularly I looked at using the Child of Eberron archetype to get into Focluchan Lyrist, until I realized that the class has no redeeming qualities and doesn’t do anything interesting), and I made use of the Loredrake archetype despite my intentions not to. The other thing that comes to mind with Dragonwrought Kobolds is access to Epic Feats, and I do take a few of those (another build I played with focused on being a badass monk and getting Infinite Deflection as well as various other Deflect Arrows improvements to become entirely immune to targeted ranged attacks including spells). Anyways, what I ended up focusing on was the Type change to Dragon, specifically the interaction with the Shaper of Form ability Renaissance, which allows you to change to a race that shares a type though you ‘cannot choose to become a race with a level adjustment.’ Interestingly enough, actual true dragons do not have LA after age category Juvenile (Silver Dragons have no LA after Young). Now, the subtlety here is how this actually works. The way I have interpreted it is that you simply choose ‘Silver Dragon’ (or whatever varietal), and then you become the appropriate one for your age. The details of the Renaissance ability specify that you don’t get Hit Dice or Ability Adjustments, so in some fashion you become the new race version of yourself. Therefore, we need to make sure that our age before trying to change race makes the target race a legal choice. Dragonwrought Kobolds have a maximum age of 120+10xCHA. A Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold with CHA 21 can be up to 330 years old, making us the equivalent of a Mature Adult True Dragon, and thus we can use the Renaissance ability to become a dragon in Truth. Since Dragons have a racial Effective Sorcerer level, this lets us get phantom Arcane Spellcasting without spending class levels on it. We take two flaws to pick up Extended Life Span to get a max age of 742.5 years, which puts us in the Very Old age category, so when we change our race at ECL 10 we end up with 13 free sorcerer levels (15 with Loredrake). Using this trick makes double 9s trivial, and triple 9s not all that hard either, but those builds seemed kinda boring, so I decided to make a Gish instead. Specifically, I decided to make a War Hulking Hurler with full Caster levels as well. Here’s some details as to what that looks like.

ECL 1-9:
We’re starting off as a nearly complete mundane. The first two levels of Duskblade are mostly there to trigger the +2 Sorcerer levels from Loredrake. The two levels of Fighter and the Level of Warblade let us fulfill the feat requirements for Bloodstorm Blade and later on for Hulking Hurler and War Hulk. We pick up the first four levels of Bloodstorm Blade for Lightning Ricochet to be able to full attack with a thrown weapon, which at this point is whatever weapon we’ve managed to get our hands on. The two Iron Heart strikes are largely there to fuel Thunderous Throw so we can treat our thrown attacks as melee attacks (which we will really enjoy later on), though Action Before Thought was chosen to offset one of our bad saves. Up to this point we’re a pretty straightforward Bloodstorm Blade, with some low level utility spells to improve our capability.

ECL 10-12: (Sweet Spot 1)
We become a Very Old Silver Dragon, and get 13 free Sorcerer levels (note that Silver Dragons can learn spells from the Cleric list). This gives us a Sorcerer level of 16, which gives us access to 8th level spells when everyone else has at most 5th. Two levels of Abjurant Champ gets us Level 9 spells at ECL12, and we pick up Time Stop first because it is awesome. In addition to all this we get the benefits of being a Very Old Dragon, which includes among other things SR27, NA +30, Frightful Presence (DC 10 +1/2HD +Cha), a 18d8 Breath Weapon, Huge Size and a bunch of natural weapons to secondary attack with while being a Bloodstorm Blade. We are a certifiable badass at the moment, though the fact that we don’t get racial ability modifiers means we’re also hilariously weak for a dragon. We’ll fix that shortly.

ECL 13-20:
These levels have two purposes: first, to become a Hulking Hurler because they are hilarious, and second to remedy our Strength problem (you’ll note that I left my base Dex at 10. Dragons have Dex 10 in dnd) through picking up War Hulk levels. We qualify for both of these by virtue of changing our race to Dragon to be size Large or Larger. Two levels of Hulking Hurler gives us Really Throw Anything and Overburdened Heave, which together allow us to explicitly through big boulders for stupid damage. At this point the Shaper of Form ability Like Begets Like becomes relevant as well, since we can use it to turn anything into Adamantine. Once we start taking War Hulk levels we need a way to deal with the negative ability No Time To Think, which makes us incapable of using mental stat tied skills, which would be sad considering that’s all we have for skills. The 5th level spell Trait Removal can be used to remove No Time To Think from ourselves for 1 hour/CL, meaning we don’t have to deal with this issue. We don’t want that. Hulking Hurler also has the downside of not improving BAB (+2 str/lvl breaks even, but still) however, we don’t actually care because we have Divine Power available to cast. Our 1st round is going to look something like: Greater Arcane Fusion --> Bite of the Werebear + Divine Power, with a swift action spell (Nerveskitter or Aerial Alacrity most likely) or ability/item. The Ability Enhancer feat is chosen largely to synergize with Bite of the Werebear to give an additional +2 STR/DEX/CON. By 20th level while buffed we have a strength score of 47 (12 base + 5 levels +12 War Hulk + 16 Bite of the Werebear +2 Ability Enhancer), which is pretty respectable for a Hulking Hurler. We also have the ability to full attack at BAB +20 with our boulder/statue and get secondary attacks with a bunch of natural weapons with range 20. Using Thunderous Throw we can treat those attacks as melee which means we can combine Mighty Swing and Sweeping Boulder to be able to make those attacks hit everything in 6 consecutive squares. Our 18th level feat was chosen to be the Epic feat Spell Knowledge, which lets us pick up Wish (because why not) as well as Genesis. This second choice is important because it will let us set up a personal demiplane with accelerated time inside, which we will need for our last trick. Once we’ve reached level 20 we’ll burn the XP to make our demiplane with whatever accelerated time is needed such that we can step inside and age to Great Wyrm without missing out on adventuring time.

ECL 21-29: (Sweet Spot 2)
Aging from Very Old to Great Wyrm adds 9 Dragon RHD. This gives us an additional +9 BAB, +5 effective Sorcerer Levels (total 24 now), some additional SLAs, racial ability score adjustments, and improved racial abilities as well as a bevy of Skill points. These skill points are enough to push us over the 24 rank threshold needed to qualify for the Epic Spellcasting feat, which we promptly pick up at ECL21. We use our remaining two feat slots (ECL 24 and 27) to get Improved Spell Capacity to get more Epic Spells (lvl 10) for a total of 5/day.



Sources:
Most everything here is from Core + Completes, Dragon Magic, Draconomicon, Races of the Dragon, Epic Level Handbook, or Dragons of Eberron. There are a few more obscure pieces as follows:

Dragon Compendium Vol. 1 (DrC) – Shaper of Form, Ability Enhancer, Draconic Bloodline
Races of the Wild (RoW) – Aerial Alacrity
Serpent Kingdoms (SK) – Trait Removal
Tome of Battle (ToB) – Warblade, Bloodstorm Blade, All Maneuvers
Drow of the Underdark (DotU) – Hit & Run Fighter ACF

[daremetoidareyo]

So those are it! Well done, you crazy munchkins.

Let's give it 2 weeks to judge...which puts the final deadline for judgments on November 24th at 11:59 PM. If y'all get judgments in sooner than that, we'll tally it all up. Then we shall begin Round 3. Pokemon pet battle will have to wait for me to get time to want to develop it more. So I'll leave it to the entire board.

What do you want game warper #3 to be?

[Bronk]

So those are it! Well done, you crazy munchkins.

Nice! Those will be fun to read on vacation!



Let's give it 2 weeks to judge...which puts the final deadline for judgments on November 24th at 11:59 PM. If y'all get judgments in sooner than that, we'll tally it all up. Then we shall begin Round 3. Pokemon pet battle will have to wait for me to get time to want to develop it more. So I'll leave it to the entire board.

What do you want game warper #3 to be?

I vote for something fun and E6, like the first one!

[RaiKirah]

Good gods there are some shenanigans going on here!! I'm going to have to spend a lot of time going over these in detail. Can't wait!! :D

On first blush these are a lot of fun folks, so thanks for making the judging aspect likely as entertaining as building was!

[WhamBamSam]

Damn. Just didn't have time to get my build done. I'm disappointed in myself. Here's the stub anyway...

Venerable Wyrm of War (Maneuver Variant) Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Domain Sorcerer 5/Binder 1/Anima Mage 10/JPM 4
1. Sorcerer 1 – Dragonwrought
2. Sorcerer 2
3. Binder 1 – Improved Binding
4. Sorcerer 3
5. Sorcerer 4
6. Sorcerer 5 – Draconic Reservoir, Extend Spell (Planning Domain)
7. Anima Mage 1
8. Anima Mage 2
9. Anima Mage 3 – Persist Spell
10. Anima Mage 4
11. JPM 1
12. JPM 2 – Craft Wonderous Item
13. JPM 3
14. JPM 4
15. Anima Mage 5 – Evasive Reflexes
16. Anima Mage 6
17. Anima Mage 7
18. Anima Mage 8 – Improved Combat Reflexes
19. Anima Mage 9
20. Anima Mage 10

The variant Wyrm of War Sovereign Archetype lets you trade spell slots for Tiger Claw maneuvers of the same level and gives an initiator level equal to your sorcerer caster level. Jade Phoenix Mage explicitly adds its level to your initiator level, so you can use it to bootstrap IL and qualify to get higher maneuver levels faster, at least through Martial Study/Stance (likely via Heroics), and the various maneuver-granting items. This build doesn't accelerate IL as fast as it's possible to (Sorcerer 6/JPM 6 with the Greater Draconic Rite hits IL 17 at 12th), but after a great deal of hemming and hawing, I thought it was a better showcase of the trick in the Iron Chef format because a) it shows off the potential to use the Archetype to theurge maneuver advancement with subsystems you ordinarily couldn't (in this case Pact Magic), and I thought it important in the context of IC to be a good crafter (Craft Wondrous Item, ability to bind Astaroth for another Item Creation feat, such as Extraordinary Artisan) because maneuver-granting items are the best way to get over the hurdle of prerequisite maneuvers. Pact Magic also offers the potential for some snazzy combos like an old favorite of mine, Paimon+Defensive Rebuke+Ghostly Tail (Empowered by Empowered Strike), Zceryll Summons which can wear items of low level maneuvers and give you allies for White Raven stuff/Defensive Rebuke, a lot of vestiges giving some miss chance to use with Ghostly Defense, and so on. Also Vestige Persistomancy for things like Draconic Polymorph (Mercury Dragon Tornado Throw y'all).

[Remuko]

If I think there's a legality issue in a build do I just comment it here or should I PM the creator of this thread?

[Bronk]

If I think there's a legality issue in a build do I just comment it here or should I PM the creator of this thread?

According to the Iron Chef rules we're using, we just dock one point in a single category, then move on.

[Zaq]

When everyone is hardcore cheesy, no one will be.

I love that every single entry seems to think that they're the only one who's diving so far into cheesy shenanigans, when in reality, all of these are basically TO even if we accept that DWK are true dragons. Which is, to be honest, absolutely hilarious. It's like a game of Paranoia—mutations are illegal and punishable by death on sight. Every PC has a mutation. None of the PCs know in-character that the other PCs have mutations. That's really kind of the vibe I'm getting here, and I love it.

As far as round 3 goes, what's on the short list at this point, dare? As usual, my chances of participating are basically zero because of school, but it's fun to discuss nonetheless.

[jdizzlean]

so are we simply ranking the builds on a 1-3 scale overall, or still doing a 5pt scale for each category like is the standard?

i'm confoosed.

[WhamBamSam]

When everyone is hardcore cheesy, no one will be.

I love that every single entry seems to think that they're the only one who's diving so far into cheesy shenanigans, when in reality, all of these are basically TO even if we accept that DWK are true dragons. Which is, to be honest, absolutely hilarious. It's like a game of Paranoia—mutations are illegal and punishable by death on sight. Every PC has a mutation. None of the PCs know in-character that the other PCs have mutations. That's really kind of the vibe I'm getting here, and I love it.

As far as round 3 goes, what's on the short list at this point, dare? As usual, my chances of participating are basically zero because of school, but it's fun to discuss nonetheless.I consider my uncompleted idea in the cheesy range of what can still be considered PO - not appropriate for every game by a longshot, but not something that I'd reject out of hand in a high-op game. But yeah, after a quick skimming, most to all of what's on display here would be on my ban list even as someone who rules/houserules Dragonwrought Kobolds to be True Dragons.

I think the Pokemon Battle is probably in the near future along with some rounds with select Dragon Magazines allowed (I'm hoping for E6 Martial Monks, and VC-style Dragon Magazine Dragons) and a round where 3-4 carbon copies of your build have to serve as a party.

[Bronk]

When everyone is hardcore cheesy, no one will be.

I love that every single entry seems to think that they're the only one who's diving so far into cheesy shenanigans, when in reality, all of these are basically TO even if we accept that DWK are true dragons.

I saw that as totally the point for everyone... If you can't do a little TO in something like this, then where? :)


I think the Pokemon Battle is probably in the near future along with some rounds with select Dragon Magazines allowed (I'm hoping for E6 Martial Monks, and VC-style Dragon Magazine Dragons) and a round where 3-4 carbon copies of your build have to serve as a party.

Those sound like fun. I might try out the Pokemon battle even if it's up to level 20.

[Remuko]

According to the Iron Chef rules we're using, we just dock one point in a single category, then move on.

okay thats fair.

[daremetoidareyo]

Please reread the judging part of the first post. You contemplate the judging categories and allow them to inform your ranked choice of 3,2,1

[Bronk]

Please reread the judging part of the first post. You contemplate the judging categories and allow them to inform your ranked choice of 3,2,1

I apologize! I missed and/or forgot that, even though I now see it's in a giant blue font! That'll be much easier to keep track of in my notebook while I'm on vacation.

[Ripptor]

Pokemon pet battle will have to wait for me to get time to want to develop it more. So I'll leave it to the entire board.

What do you want game warper #3 to be?

I vote for something fun and E6, like the first one!

I also vote for E6, so that I can participate! Like I said last time, lvl 20 just requires so much more time, both to build and to judge. Hopefully participation increases as well, this one barely got the minimum this time around.. Though it might just be busy season at work for more than just myself, so who knows?

As for judging, I'm glad to see us trying out my suggestion from last round, but the change in scoring is going to be brutal.. last place getting 0 points is rough, and with first place awarding twice as many points as second place, it's going to be rather polarizing. I'm interested to see how things end up!

[jdizzlean]

how about a modified e6, something along the lines of e8, or e9. this allows for higher BAB options, and some different things that you can't do in a normal e6 environment

[Zaq]

E6 forced-dipper round: no more than 1 level in any one class. I've seen builds like that before, but never in E6, and I think you'd get enough variety to keep it lively. (I was honestly thinking of something similar for my E6 competition, but it seems a little too similar to the current "must have 2 levels in one or more PrCs" round.)

[Ripptor]

E6 forced-dipper round: no more than 1 level in any one class. I've seen builds like that before, but never in E6, and I think you'd get enough variety to keep it lively. (I was honestly thinking of something similar for my E6 competition, but it seems a little too similar to the current "must have 2 levels in one or more PrCs" round.)

You should check out my Commoner Chameleon build from the last round! It got a lot of flak for ACF chaining (even though it was the most legal build of the set) but its a full E6 dipper with cohesive mechanics and flavor.

I've been meaning to do a post-judging write up to explain it better, as a teaching moment, but I haven't had the time yet..

[daremetoidareyo]

i have two judgments in. Just waiting on 2 more.

[daremetoidareyo]

Waiting on one more, I'll give it 2 more days and send a PM.

[RaiKirah]

Really sorry friends - life's been kicking me in the butt recently and I lost track of this. If you will bear with me for another couple days I'll get my judgements in by the end of the weekend. Probably going to have to take - or continue - a hiatus from the boards after that for a while.

[Ripptor]

So I like the idea of a Pokemon contest, but perhaps an evolutionary set/idea rather than an actual poke-battle?

Monster PCs with class levels, with three snapshots showing the different 'evolutions', each with different names/abilities, all themed around one of the Pokemon types? It would be easier to partake/judge if we capped the snapshots, maybe levels 3/6/8 to keep thing interesting yet pre-wuxia?

I'd love to see a DnD take on ghast / haunter / gengar :smallbiggrin:

[HouseRules]

Kobolds are Cobalt Goblins, the descendant of Goblins and Blue Dragons!

[daremetoidareyo]

I'll be posting the judgments tomorrow.

[daremetoidareyo]

numero uno

This was certainly an interesting contest! I apologize in advance for any rules misstep on my part… there may be gaps in the explanations for certain choices, something I know I’ve been kicking myself about since just after I sent my own entry in.


Of the three choices, I like Puk’s fun oriented class selection - which includes Hulking Hurler! - the best. Groesse comes in second with an interesting selection of templates as a tauric winged magebred kobold phynxkin. Gangi comes in last with the deity template.

Puk: 3
Groesse: 2
Gangi: 1

Taking all three choices at face value, all stand as having taken on advanced dragon forms related to their draconic heritage, so they’re about equal there. Puk comes in first with epic spellcasting, Gangi comes in second, being a god and all, and Groesse comes in third with 9th level arcane spells and 8th level divine spells.

Puk: 3
Gangi: 2
Groesse: 1

Puk, Gangi, and Groesse all break the 20 level limit - by the Iron Chef rules we’re using, racial hit dice are equated to class levels, which is backed up by the rules for dragon advancement in the Draconomicon, pages 142 through 144 - but since they’ve all done this, this aspect is all evened out.

For me, Puk comes in first of the three in elegance. Although taking on the form of an advanced Silver Dragon to gain RHD was against the rules of the challenge, which also invalidates the ability to gain the high skill ranks needed for the epic spellcasting feat, the reasoning given utilized a class ability, and not by claiming that the DWK’s draconic heritage allows them to pop into draconic form spontaneously at a certain level. However this also relied upon more advanced dragons having no level adjustment, and unfortunately they are specifically listed as ‘LA -’ in MM1 page 86, rather than +0. I don’t quite see it as working, but I do see it as a near miss, and in general his build relies well on the base dragonwrought kobold.

Gangi comes in second in elegance. His method of taking on his advanced Steel Dragon form relies on virtual age categories, which, unfortunately, are only for ‘standard’ dragons, and we’re using dragonwrought kobolds here (true dragons, but not standard). Next, although it’s a cool idea, there are no rules precedents for claiming the DWK’s draconic heritage allows them to pop into an advanced draconic form linked to that heritage. Also, the way I see it, under standard 3.5 rules, there are no standardized rules for becoming a deity. It was an interesting story and set of character choices to set up a plausible route to dnd godhood, but then again to me it seems like most of the power of the final product is deific rather than draconic.

For me, Groesse comes in last of the three for elegance. Groesse also uses virtual age categories to take on draconic form, despite not being a ‘standard’ dragon and uses their draconic heritage to do so, but as I read the various templates, it would appear that the base creature also has quite a bit of non-approved LA (+2 from tauric, +1 from winged, and +1 from magebred, the limit being LA+0), magebred can only be applied to animals (neither the kobold or the phynxkin is an animal), I’m not seeing any way for magebred to negate LA as stated in the entry, and by being tauric, they become a monstrous humanoid and not a true dragon, regular dragon, or kobold from that point on. I still think it’s a neat idea, but it doesn’t appear to have ended up fitting the challenge.

Puk: 3
Gangi: 2
Groesse: 1

Of the three, Puk comes in first by using DWK as true dragon the best, and staying true to that ideal. Gangi switches from true dragon to deity (and therefore an outsider) at some point, although becoming a dragon deity nets second place in my eyes. Groesse comes in last for straying farthest, unintentionally using a monstrous humanoid as an ingredient.

Puk: 3
Gangi: 2
Groesse: 1

Totals:
Puk: 12
Gangi: 7
Groesse: 5

[daremetoidareyo]

numero dos

Originality:

Ganji, the All Watcher: 3rd
I really enjoyed your framing of the build in the cheesy ‘opening’ and ‘closing’ statements fashion. It made it quite a lot of fun to read. On the plus side for your originality I was not expecting anyone to turn their build into a Deity, so props for surprising me there. In terms of the basics of the build however I find it somewhat ordinary. Your use of Loredrake was expected (I used it as well, so no judgment, just lack of bonus), and your class levels are a fairly standard Sorcadin Gish build. Your argument that you start as a Great Wyrm Steel Dragon is surprising, but as I don’t believe it to be correct, I can’t give you credit for it here. Your use of advancing by Virtual Age Category for additional HD was something I missed, and I’ll give you props for it. I think we all technically would have benefitted from it, but you actually called it out.

Draco ‘Goldie’ Wyversnbottom: 2nd
Your placement here comes largely from your class choices, and how you managed to get into them. I like the idea of a character that eventually decides to become the protector their god claims to be; it’s conceptually interesting and you manage to pull it off mechanically pretty well too. The use of the PAO trick to become an Aspect of Bahamut unfortunately doesn’t get you any bonuses in this category as it’s a tried and true measure to take on the path to power, as is persistomancy.

Groesse Perte, The Sonic Serpent: 1st
I really like your concept here, and it’s possibly the first time that I’ve seen a Tauric Template that’s not just a power grab (though it is) but also a mechanical necessity for other tricks. As with Ganji, you make use of the Virtual Age Category increases in the SRD, though unlike that build it is a central aspect of what you put together. I think that you may have restricted yourself with the RHD requirement (from what I’m seeing it’s just HD, so class levels would do the trick), but you work around it in a way I was very much not expecting. I was also not expecting to see a Fochlucan Lyrist (I considered it due to the Child of Eberron Archetype but discarded it because that class is super boring it turns out), so that gets you kudos. The fact that it doesn’t hinder you overmuch in your build it a bonus.

Power:

Ganji, the All Watcher: 1st
Gods are cheating, so nicely done. I’m a little hesitant to give this to you, but I’m proceeding on the assumption that what you’ve presented is legal. I don’t actually think it is (which will explain your Elegance), but so be it. This character is an absolute powerhouse. Not a whole lot of granularity to get through here, you’re a Deity with lots of casting, HD, BAB, etc……

Draco ‘Goldie’ Wyversnbottom: 3nd
You are a fully powered up Persistomancer with an enormous spell list and fantastic combat capability as well. You fall to third because you don’t have Epic Spellcasting (or are a Deity), and your big power spike comes online at ECL20, meaning for most of the game you’ll lag behind a dual caster build heading into the mid/late levels, and I’m also not sure that the Aspect of Bahamut is enough to push you beyond Groesse Perte. PAO into an Aspect of Bahamut gives you a bunch of additional goodies, and a huge power spike at Level 20 (can’t do it prior because you’d run out of XP).


Groesse Perte, The Sonic Serpent: 2rd
You have by far the cleanest manner to get Colossal size, and a very interesting build. Persistomancy from both the Arcane and Divine with 9s and 8s will get you everywhere, and though you don’t specify a means to dance forever it’s not all that hard to figure out. You achieve Colossal size early, so even while you trail a dedicated caster early, you also have combat capability to make up for it off the bat.


Elegance:

Ganji, the All Watcher: 3rd
I’m relatively certain that your build is not legal for this competition, and here’s why. The first reason is that while it’s not explicitly written out in the competition rules, we’re basing everything on the Iron Chef rules, and for that we don’t get a flat 20 Character Levels, we get enough XP to reach ECL20. That’s a total of 190K. So, when you start the build at 37RHD (If I’m reading this right), that means you only get enough XP for a couple class levels (ELH Table 1-2 on page 7 has the amount of XP to go up an ECL as +1000xCurrent ECL, so from 37 to 38 takes 37K, 38-39 takes 38K…). Thus, you don’t get all 20 Class levels. The second, and probably bigger issue, is that your argument for being a Great Wyrm Steel Dragon is flawed. Dragonwrought mentions a draconic heritage, but gives no rules for that save for stating the color of your scales, and what your maximum age is (+5/CHA for Chromatic, +10/CHA for Metallic). So, the choice of your heritage for a Dragonwrought Kobold is cosmetic, it does not make you into a True Dragon of that type. And here’s where I think the confusion comes from; True Dragon is not a race, it’s a class of races. Red Dragons are not Silver Dragons are not Still Dragons, but they are all True Dragons. A Dragonwrought Kobold is a True Dragon (so any generic rules for that class of races applies), but is still a kobold. Unfortunately, this means that the base premise of your build it flawed.

Draco ‘Goldie’ Wyversnbottom: 1st
The only part of this build I don’t like from a mechanical standpoint is the back-loading of features after reaching Level 20, though I understand that this is required so as to be able to achieve 20 class levels without running out of XP or going over on ECL. You avoid the use of Loredrake and use Wyrm of War to augment your off-role of melee character, which is a slick way to do so. The use of the ambiguous wording on Page 4 of the Dragon Magic book to flat out ignore the entry requirements for Singer of Concordance is inspired. The Deity change is a little awkward, but otherwise fine (I’m not a fan of alignment restrictions and the like). While Dark Chaos Shuffling is often frowned upon, you do it organically, rather than buying, which gives you brownie points in my book, and the plethora of Extra Turnings means you’re not relying on Nightstick Stacking, which removes a fair amount of the ick factor associated with DMM. Really slick build

Groesse Perte, The Sonic Serpent: 2nd
It was hard for me to decide between your build and Goldie’s in this category. I really like your method to become Colossal (earlier than any other build), and overall I quite like what you did. The build looks playable throughout, which is nice. In the end it came down to a couple factors; While I like that Tauric is not just for power, the template stacking is not terribly elegant. Add on the fact that you rely on purchasing time in an Otyugh Hole, and buying a couple of Dark Chaos Shuffles early in the game and you get just enough demerits to fall to second. Follow-on note: I’m unsure if your build is rules legal as a Dragonwrought Kobold is Type Dragon rather than Humanoid and thus not a legal target for the Tauric Template.


Use of SI:

Ganji, the All Watcher: 3rd
What exactly the SI is on this one is slightly vague, so I’m going to base it on the use of Dragonwrought Kobold, and all that entails. I think that Ganji attempts to make good use of the associated rules wankery surrounding Dragonwrought Kobolds. However, the core of this build is around the interpretation that you are in fact a Steel Wyrm rather than a Kobold, which is wrong, and sadly none of your other usages rely on Dragonwrought Kobold, rather than your (illegal) race.

Draco ‘Goldie’ Wyversnbottom: 2nd
Your build quite literally is not possibly without without the use of Dragonwrought Kobold being a True Dragon. You use that interpretation to qualify for Singer of the Concordance, you use the Wyrm of War Archetype to offset your weaknesses early, and the apotheosis into an Aspect of Bahamut relies on your type as a Dragon, True (though PAO chaining can get around this it’s still nice). That all said, your build is perhaps the least ‘Dragon-y’ of the builds, and while the mechanics do make use of Dragonwrought, you could largely re-create this with any race.

Groesse Perte, The Sonic Serpent: 1st
This build is built around being a Colossal Kobold, which is unusual and only possible through the use of the Dragonwrought Kobold as a True Dragon ruling. While you may have shot yourself in the foot with the Tauric Template (depends on being able to reassign the Monstrous RHD ECL1 feat to be Dragonwrought, and whether a Tauric Creature still counts as a Kobold), the trick still works and is highly entertaining. Loredrake and the Greater Rite of Draconic Passage lets you get Sorcerrer 9s, which you otherwise would not have as well. Your build is the one I consider to be the most reliant on the SI, and also to showcase it the most centrally.

[daremetoidareyo]

Numero tres


Improving Monsters
Each of the monster entries describes a typical creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster. These methods are not mutually exclusive—it’s possible for a monster with a template to be improved by both increasing its Hit Dice and adding character class levels.

Class Levels
Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels. Creatures that fall into this category have an entry of "By character class" in their Advancement line. When a monster adds a class level, that level usually represents an increase in experience and learned skills and capabilities.

Increased Hit Dice
Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice. Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows.
...
Monsters And Class Levels
...
Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size.
...
Increasing Hit Dice
...
Note that if a creature acquires a character class, it improves according to its class, not its type.
...
Size Increases
A creature may become larger when its Hit Dice are increased (the new size is noted parenthetically in the monster’s Advancement entry).


As outlined in the rules above, when advancing monsters their class levels override racial bonuses at all times. Racial Hit dice make monsters bigger and more powerful as member for their race, and class levels make monsters more experienced, skilled, and capable. While increasing Hit Dice may cause a creature to change size/age, class levels never increase size/age as shown in the entry's Advancement, and a monster acquiring a class no longer improves by it's type, only by the class chosen.

There exist no specific rules in the Advancing Dragons section which override any of the above. There is a very loose definition of Hit Dice, but the above rules make it clear that any HD increases due to added class levels may never change size or advance racial characteristics, only making them more experienced and capable as per that class's level advancement. Double-dipping is expressly forbidden.


Originality: 3
This is a level 37 True Dragon with 20 class levels, and lots of Dragon-only feats. I'm not seeing anything that really catches the eye mechanically, nor thematically.

There is an assumption to somehow use the deity rules for this character, but as there is no explanation and no reading that provides those benefits, I can grant no points.

Power: 3
Starting the game as a creature with 37 RHD gives a boost compared to characters with only 1 HD, but it doesn't change the rules of experience points: RHD and LA are not free XP, they start with 0 xp along with everyone else. This means the character will not gain their first character level until they acquire 703,000 exp, putting them significantly behind their party members once they catch up.

A bog-standard Great Wyrm Steel Dragon is below the curve for an optimized level 37 PC, and the level 57 character shown in your table does not close that gap.

Elegance: 1
Being a Dragonwrought Kobold changes your type to (True) Dragon, however it does not change your race. I can find nothing to support your use of another race's aging table and rules.

The Kobold has it's own aging table and age categories in Races of the Dragon, which do not grant racial HD, Size changes, Flight speeds, Swim speeds, Damage Reduction, Spell Resistance, Natural weapons, Special Abilities, Breath weapons, SLAs, Spellcasting, Domains, and anything else I may have missed. Additionally, the build illegally attempts to double-dip, counting their Class levels as Hit Dice for Monster Advancement, which removes again significant portions of what is outlined in the build as shown.

The amount of retconning needed to see what this build actually looks like makes the entire build indeterminable, as these are important aspects of what was presented. Also, two flaws for three level 1 feats, which additionally appear to be missing.

Use of SI: 2
The only way the Kobold was used in this build is in an attempt to play a normally illegal (LA -) race, by trading a feat for the Level Adjustment not provided. An interesting idea, if it worked per the rules.



Originality: 3
I like the story and the way it mirrors the character's growth. Mechanically, a lot of the rest of the build is the usual Cleric fare.

Power: 7
Full Divine caster with lots of special abilities and spells at every level, both in and out of combat, and Epic Toughness helps ensure survival in the early game. Better than Cleric 20.

Elegance: 6
The build appears to lack the ability to cast arcane spells for Dweomerkeeper entry? This seems even more pronounced as at Level 20 there's no mention of where those +8 arcane caster levels went towards... This is strange to complain about, since adding 8 caster levels would increase the strength of the build, but I just can't find where it's supposed to go... I can only assume you used the Kobold ritual to get a level 1 arcane SLA, and just didn't take advantage of the 8 caster levels??? I'm at a loss, but no points off.

Aside from that everything looks legal and straightforward, and easy enough to read and track the changes in build usage across three different snapshots.


Use of SI: 7
The main uses of the Kobold mechanically are early PRC to gain a few extra abilities in the early levels, and for all the free feats, two racial and five martial, all of which repurposed to make a very powerful caster. Thematically, the focus on the Dragon/Kobold piece is represented well through ACFs and Spell selections, keeping up the Aspect of Bahamut is a great way to be combatative.



Originality: 5
Dragonwrought with Extended Life Span into Shaper of Form is new to me, which is fun. There's not a lot of thematic or build cohesion outside of the main trick, due to the need to spread out to accomplish it: He's fairly weak for a build revolving around get strong and throw things for level 1-9, when he 180s into a full caster that can sometimes throws things, until using the usual tricks to pump STR.

Power: 6
Assuming this build did work(see below), and could skip 32 levels of RHD while also gaining all of the benefits of those HD advancement, this would be quite powerful after that point. Early access to ninth level spells would be a big win, alongside the other various Dragon abilities involved. There's tension between the build's separate plans on ranged melee combat and spellcasting, which have little overlap. There are stronger Spellcasters and stronger Bloodstorm builds, but doing both for free is a nice perk. Being Colossal means that there will be issues with travel / movement / location, though the Alter Self SLAs come into play to help.

However, it will be a struggle to live into the tenth level with the overall weakness of the build's first nine levels: Mostly dedicated to taking odd feats and other requirements, spreading it's focus out and relegating itself to a rather niche supporting role, with no out-of-combat utility. Light armor with +0 Dex for a low AC, combined with low Reflex (absolute 0 until level 8) and low Will saves means taking a lot of damage. The above-average HP and high Fort saves are the only buffers to stave off death.

Elegance: 1
Mandatory: Two flaws.

I've checked my source, the errata, and other online quotations of the Shaper of Form, but I cannot see where it states that you do not gain Racial Hit Die from changing races:


Renaissance: The Shaper of Form changes race, gender, or general physical appearance. She cannot change type and no ability score adjustments occur as a result of the change. Thus, if the character is weak and becomes an orc, she becomes a weak orc. The shaper of form cannot choose to become a member of a race with a level adjustment.

It is unspecific how Renaissance works with races that have RHD. However, it is clear (as your build itself states) that dragon age categories grant RHD. Becoming a Very Old Silver Dragon at level 10 would grant 32 Dragon HD alongside the abilities also granted in it's aging table, otherwise the abilities would also not be similarly granted. This is the crux of how the aging trick (used later in this build) works for True Dragons and Time shenanigans: Advancing via HD (and not class levels) grants special racial abilities, and advancing age categories grants RHD. If advancing in age does not definitively grant HD, than the Genesis trick you outline and use would not function. These abilities may not be gained without these RHD unless something else more specific overrides it, which I do not see.

This would catapult the build to an ECL 42 character at level 10, with everything that you listed: +19 Sorcerer casting, size increases, etc, except that your stats are specifically not allowed to change, rer Renaissance. As specific trumps general, this may include not only the racial adjustments but even the usual ability adjustments due to the size increases resulting from the race change, so the build would be an even weaker 'weak dragon' depending on interpretation.

As an ECL 42 character, it takes a large amount of experience before the first Abjurant Champion level, at ECL 43, meaning no ninth level spells until ECL 44. This dramatically changes the entirety of the build, which believed it could skip those 32 levels while still gaining all of the scaling abilities of those levels.

Use of SI: 5
Using the Dragonwrought Kobold to play a usually illegal (LA -) race is an interesting idea, and does work via Shaper of Form, as long as you are willing to take the 32 Levels of HD and the use the Kobold's ability score modifiers instead of the Dragon's. However, the hoops required to do so put one pretty far behind in the power curve, as those 32 Hit Die are an expensive price to pay. Extended Life Span is allowed via the




PointsScoreBuild
223Draco ‘Goldie’ Wyvernsbottom
117Puk’alib’an, Ancient Sage of War
09Ganji, The All Watcher

[daremetoidareyo]

Numero Quattro

DWK Judging
Goldie

Total Score: 1

It started out good, but chaos shuffled its way into a bad place. Especially at the cost of 500xp per shuffle.


A spellcaster w/o concentration? That’s brave.
Epic toughness at 1st is both laughable, and commendable.
Even a single tome of +1 to an attribute costs 27,500g, and a +5 manual is 137,500g. Both are outside the bounds of what Wish can do. Plus, each +5 tome would cost you 56k xp to wish into existence. Go Go Gadget de-leveling.


1 Flaw.
3 domains at level 1
A cleric of astilabor, but taking a prc devoted to Io, even w/ shenanigannery of ignoring pre-reqs is questionable at best.
You gain Knowledge Devotion at 4th level. It’s not a WoW feat, which you take at that level…
Essentially switching to 3 different deities over the build is a bit bothersome. When you channel your “connection” to Io for those class abilities, Astilabor probably gets miffed. When you drop Astilabor entirely, you’d also lose access to everything you’d gained up to that point in the cleric class. All spells/class features, and by the trickle-down effect, all PrC abilities/levels gained from that cleric casting. All those Domains as well, which I assume you’ve taken solely for their granted powers, as you still only have 1 domain spell slot at each level, that you now can’t cast.

Chaos Shuffling the entire build at 20 is a particularly nasty kind of limburger. After you shuffle, you still have to meet pre-reqs for everything you took.
Astilabor is Neutral, but Church Inquisitor requires membership in a LG or LN church. I don’t actually see you list an alignment, and your background suggests that you might hop a few of them, but w/o a starting point, you can’t have an ending point.
Sacred Exorcist’s must come from a church order that is devoted to combatting evil, which astilabor is not. Even if you ignore that bit of fluff, the specific requirements state “only characters judged to be exemplary in faith and devotion”. You’ve already shown that to be untrue do to dallying w/ Io.
Dweomerkeeper requires you to have a item creation feat, which you don’t have.


You do lots of dragonny things, but this seems more of a look what I can do w/ DMM Persist, than look what I can do as a true dragon. Doubly so, as your capstone is look what I can do to an aspect of bahamut, and not look what I can do to myself! Further still since an aspect of bahamut isn’t a true dragon.

Puk’alib’an

Total Score: 3

War Hulk, I congratulate you.
Kudos on not not advancing to venerable until the end of your build.


I actually had a really great argument here, only to find out I missed something in my own build about spell ability. So kudos to you. Which also means I could’ve totally done what I originally intended and also take epic spellcasting, oh well 



2 flaws. A few class abilities that don’t seem relevant to end game, but they don’t hurt you either.


A pretty good job of highlighting the ludicrousity of a true dragon wrought kobold.

Groesse Perte

Total Score: 2

Battle Dragon is unexpected. As is its BardBarian’esqueness. Too bad you don’t build onto the rage aspect at all.



I don’t think Slight build works when your base form is Colossal, even if by RAW its effects do. But it’s an interesting usage of an otherwise neglected racial ability. However squeezing into a 64 foot space when you are larger than 64 feet doesn’t seem like that big of a deal. Any underground cavern or tunnel that is that big would be hard to find.
Extra claw attacks for extra grappling is fun times.
Chaos shuffling your useless racial weapon feats is a nice way to “use” them.



Point buy seems largely irrelevant beyond stacking one side of your scores up as you’re going to ignore half of your attributes anyways.
(((Tauric Seems an off choice, plus, a DWK is a dragon, not a humanoid, so you can’t even apply it.)))
This is template stacking for ultimate cheese. Gaining the benefits of multiple things but only paying for it w/ a single level. All the true dragon goodness of DWK and Magebred/Winged/Tauric cheese on top of that. Cheese with a side of cheese, served on a plate made of cheese. MMII has an update to 3.5 that affects Tauric: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a meaning that your LA after applying Tauric is actually the base humanoid +3. Giving up 3 class levels probably wasn’t in your game plan solely to gain: Pounce, a flight speed, 2 claws, and some increases to stats.
Further, since you’re doing your build table to reflect templates at various levels, instead of starting at that level, you are already a DWK at level 1, so when you have your phynxkin racial hd, and then apply the rest of those things to it, you actually can’t take tauric as you are no longer a humanoid but a dragon.
Chaos Shuffling as a means of blowing your WBL is actually kinda funny/sad.
Otyugh Hole… especially since you chaos shuffle it away immediately.
Kobold Endurance can be taken instead of endurance when you gain endurance as a bonus feat, not just anytime you feel like taking it.
Initiate of Aasterinian requires 3rd lvl Cleric when you take it, which you don’t have.
Spelldancer requires some elvish blood, which a tauric dwk who happens to be a true dragon, wouldn’t have. Which then means you don’t qualify for Fochlucan Lyrist.
Once you take Sublime Chord, you can’t take another class until you take all 10 lvl’s per the restriction from Bardic Lock.



Some use of Kobold, not sure on an equal use of true dragon,




On a personal note: For my own build, I got lost in the details. Originally I had planned on taking epic spellcasting as well as Epic Quicken Spell 3 times to get all levels of spells 0-9 quickened free, which would combine w/ extra free actions/round and other divine things from being a deity into some truly stinky cheese. Somewhere along the build I thought I’d made a mistake and forgot about intrinsic sorc casting and so rebuilt the entire thing to take levels in sorc for base casting, which I already had from just being a super awesome true dragon w/ a pile of HD.

So the spirit of my build is the same, but instead of a 20th lvl sorc, it should probably be a 39th level sorcerer caster w/ all the rest of the cheese piled on top of that, especially w/ all those Improved Spellcasting bonus feats adding on spell slots above 9th. Oh well.

[daremetoidareyo]

Well that is that. I will be back later to sort some of the Dead.

[RaiKirah]

Thanks for bearing with me y'all - i'm really sorry I held the competition up.


I'm not interested in disputing for ranking, but there are a couple comments on the legality of my build that I want to discuss, because I had many of the same questions. The Renaissance ability of the Shaper of Form is confusing and poorly explored - there is little to no discussion on the class out there on the internet. I'm curious if collectively we can come to a RAW conclusion on these issues. I thought I would give the fullness of my logic and see if that answers some of the concerns raised.



Although taking on the form of an advanced Silver Dragon to gain RHD was against the rules of the challenge, which also invalidates the ability to gain the high skill ranks needed for the epic spellcasting feat, the reasoning given utilized a class ability, and not by claiming that the DWK’s draconic heritage allows them to pop into draconic form spontaneously at a certain level. However this also relied upon more advanced dragons having no level adjustment, and unfortunately they are specifically listed as ‘LA -’ in MM1 page 86, rather than +0. I don’t quite see it as working, but I do see it as a near miss, and in general his build relies well on the base dragonwrought kobold.

This is a valid concern, and one I myself couldn't entirely answer. For me it came down to the specific wording of the ability, namely what does 'with a level adjustment' mean? The clear intended meaning is LA +0. However, if we look at it from a strict literal meaning it could be read that any race without a LA > +0 qualifies as not having a level adjustment, and therefore LA: - is a viable option. The only other discussion I found on this topic seems to agree (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14852440&postcount=767). A further extension of this would in fact imply that only LA: - races are viable targets, and LA: +0 is still a Level adjustment (from a Group Theory perspective, LA: +0 is contained in the set of all LA (is in fact the additive identity), whereas LA: - is explicitly not in that set).


The second big issue with Renaissance, which Ripptor brings up, is the RHD issue.

It is unspecific how Renaissance works with races that have RHD. However, it is clear (as your build itself states) that dragon age categories grant RHD. Becoming a Very Old Silver Dragon at level 10 would grant 32 Dragon HD alongside the abilities also granted in it's aging table, otherwise the abilities would also not be similarly granted. This is the crux of how the aging trick (used later in this build) works for True Dragons and Time shenanigans: Advancing via HD (and not class levels) grants special racial abilities, and advancing age categories grants RHD. If advancing in age does not definitively grant HD, than the Genesis trick you outline and use would not function. These abilities may not be gained without these RHD unless something else more specific overrides it, which I do not see.

I'm actually coming down on the side of you possibly being correct that this is how this would work, but here's what my thought process was while building:
The Renaissance ability doesn't deal with what happens with RHD aside from stating that 'no ability score adjustments occur as a result of the change.' This would imply that inherent bonuses (every 4 ECL) would not be granted with the addition of RHD. Other than that we're left to flounder, and so I based my results on similar mechanics in the game, specifically the Druid Wild Shape ability, and the spells Reincarnate, and Alter Self (on which the entire Polymorph line is based).

Wild Shape references the Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) special ability, which states that the creature '...retains it's hit points' and 'except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points....' which is one point for not gaining RHD with a form change.

Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) makes a similar argument, stating that 'Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same.' If you gained the target form's RHD you would gain hit points, which you can't. Similar condition to the Renaissance ability.

Finally, the spell Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) is the only other way to change bodies in the game (without PAO which references Alter Self, or possessing things I suppose) that I can find, and it stipulates that your 'class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged,' similar to Alter Self and the phrasing of Renaissance. Furthermore, Reincarnate actually hits on our edge case of turning into a creature with RHD: the first option in the list is a Bugbear, which is a 3RHD creature. The further caveat that the reincarnated character loses one RHD/Level would serve to emphasize that you don't gain the RHD, as otherwise you would actually net 2 ECL from the Reincarnate.

So, there's my thought process as to why we don't get the 32 Dragon HD at level 10 (we don't age through the categories until ECL20, at which point we do get extra RHD extending ECL over 20 without additional XP). Curious what y'all think, as I'm not entirely convinced either!

[daremetoidareyo]

Now that I have read the judgments I see that I have failed to adequately explain the judging system. And for that I am sorry. I actually anticipated that everyone would render a scoring more like Jdizzleans. I'm not too worried in that it appears that converting everything to a unified system doesn't require a whole lot more leg work.

We just take the three judgments that scored in every category separately, derive first second and third placement, and issue trophies for total overall score.

The other option, which I am resistant to, is asking jdizzlean to score like the other judges, but i don't like the idea of asking someone to do more work when there is an option that renders less work for us. And this would further extend the amount of time this competition goes on, which sort of squashes enthusiasm for participation in future competitions.

Once we sort this out, I would like to propose that the gold place winner compromise with me as to what the next competition should be. My time is becoming more and more limited with the holidays, but I want to give the people what they want. ( although after re-reading that it seems extraordinarily pretentious of me to assume...)

[Ripptor]

I guess I'm mistaken somewhere as well? I thought my ending table was in line with the expectations... My understanding was we would score them each in the four separate categories, then rank them by combined score. That would result in something like this:



Scores
Ganji
Goldie
Groesse Perte
Puk'alib'an


JDizzlean
x
0 (1)
1 (2)
2 (3)


Bronk
1 (7)
x
0 (5)
2 (12)


Ripptor
0 (9)
2 (23)
x
1 (17)


RaiKirah
0 (2)
1 (4)
2 (6)
x


Totals
1
3 (2nd)
3 (2nd)
5 (1st)



I'll also outline some of the rules misunderstandings from the judges on my build in a future post, once I've got the time. It is interesting to see how much these misconceptions affect the final result, especially when everyone is forced to judge regardless of their comfort with the 3.5 rules.. Hopefully it can be a learning experience for everyone :smallsmile:

[Bronk]

Well that is that. I will be back later to sort some of the Dead.

Whew, that was fun!


Thanks for bearing with me y'all - i'm really sorry I held the competition up.

Well, I went on vacation for a week, so I thought I was the one holding it up there for a while! I'm glad I didn't have to try typing all that out on my phone somehow!

I see where you're coming from with the LA+0 vs LA- thing. I can only wish it was more clear! Since I don't think it is that clear, maybe RAW is that you can use both? Without the RHD, like you had. I think RAI would be that they intended you to use LA+0 forms... but I gave you tops on that category already, so that's a relief.

In general, I didn't see any reason getting and keeping RHD beyond a max HD of 20 would be legal for any of the builds, nor did I see any reason being a kobold true dragon would let you suddenly become any other kind of true dragon race.

For my build of Goldie:

I definitely agree with everyone... I was going for a dragon themed DMM persist. Taking on the Aspect of Bahamut form with PAO wasn't a true dragon thing, but it was the best dragon form I could find at my level and size, and hey, it's the aspect of a dragon god while still being a dragon.

Domains: I only have 2 domains listed at level 1, but they grant me three feats, which might have given the impression that I had taken three domains from the start.

I did take advantage of the Dragon Magic 'if dragon, skip prereqs' clause, and Goldie figured if the dragon gods didn't like it, they could revoke that clause at any time. Otherwise, what good is being a dragon god anyway? But really, it was part of including as many dragony rulings as I could.

From my point of view, there were two main features of my build beyond being as dragon-y as possible: getting into dweomerkeeper, getting access to wish, and therefore getting free supernatural wishes. Free as in no xp cost, no limits. Although I never saw the rule about having exactly 190K XP, yeah, all the Dark Chaos Shuffles were done over several days using free wishes, and could have been done earlier than level 20. Its just that I wanted to show all 20 levels.

To get into dweomerkeeper, you need to be a cleric of Mystra. But, to get wish as a cleric you need the Envy domain, which doesn't really have a god associated with it anywhere. So, I started out as a cleric to a dragon god then went into Contemplative PrC so I could take advantage of the class's description that said it represented changes in faith and studying those faiths. (For me, that's the shakiest part of the entire build, and I was curious if anyone else would remark on it. I think it works, so I used it.) I changed to Mystra's faith while a contemplative, then went into dweomerkeeper, which I qualified for by A: following Mystra, B: using the scribe scroll feat to make a scroll, which is a magic item, and C: (and I think I forgot to mention this in the build notes) being able to cast arcane spells by using the 'Substitute Domain' spell to take on the Spell Domain which I now had access to as a cleric of Mystra, gaining access to Anyspell, and therefore arcane spells.

Dweomerkeeper advances 'existing spellcasting class', not just arcane spellcasting class, so those levels were added to cleric.

I believe the wording of the two Dark Chaos Shuffle spells means that the feats you gain get tacked on at the level you cast it, but even if not, I don't think I took any I didn't have prereqs for wherever they started, especially with spells up. It's good to be a true dragon persistomancer!

But yeah, now that the contest is over, Goldie poofs himself into dragon form, complete with RHD, and maybe does the same for a few of his friends.

Long story short, again... Thanks! I had fun!

[Remuko]

So now that its over is it safe to bring up an issue I saw in one of the builds? Its very minor but I wanted to mention/ask about it.

I'll throw it in a spoiler tag.


We use our remaining two feat slots (ECL 24 and 27) to get Improved Spell Capacity to get more Epic Spells (lvl 10) for a total of 5/day.

So this was listed at the end of the Puk entry. Epic Spells and Lvl 10 Spells arent the same thing. Improved Spell Capacity doesn't work for this.

[RaiKirah]

So now that its over is it safe to bring up an issue I saw in one of the builds? Its very minor but I wanted to mention/ask about it.

I'll throw it in a spoiler tag.



So this was listed at the end of the Puk entry. Epic Spells and Lvl 10 Spells arent the same thing. Improved Spell Capacity doesn't work for this.

I am 100% comfortable admitting I'm not familiar enough with the epic rules to know how this works. I probably (definitely) got this wrong :)

[Remuko]

I am 100% comfortable admitting I'm not familiar enough with the epic rules to know how this works. I probably (definitely) got this wrong :)

See in epic levels you can take feats to get 10th, 11th, etc level spell slots. There are no spells of these levels its basically just additional spell slots to cast from and to have high level slots to use powerful metamagics from. Epic spell slots are based entirely on your ranks in the proper knowledge skill. They are treated as 10th level for the purposes of like save DCs but they are not actually 10th level spells and thus the improved spell capacity feat doesnt interact with them at all.

[daremetoidareyo]

I guess I'm mistaken somewhere as well? I thought my ending table was in line with the expectations... My understanding was we would score them each in the four separate categories, then rank them by combined score. That would result in something like this:



Scores
Ganji
Goldie
Groesse Perte
Puk'alib'an


JDizzlean
x
0 (1)
1 (2)
2 (3)


Bronk
1 (7)
x
0 (5)
2 (12)


Ripptor
0 (9)
2 (23)
x
1 (17)


RaiKirah
0 (2)
1 (4)
2 (6)
x


Totals
1
3 (2nd)
3 (2nd)
5 (1st)



I'll also outline some of the rules misunderstandings from the judges on my build in a future post, once I've got the time. It is interesting to see how much these misconceptions affect the final result, especially when everyone is forced to judge regardless of their comfort with the 3.5 rules.. Hopefully it can be a learning experience for everyone :smallsmile:

Is this chart correct? Can someone double check?

You all did lovely.

[RaiKirah]

Can confirm overall rankings from my judgements correspond to this chart

[Bronk]

Now that I have read the judgments I see that I have failed to adequately explain the judging system. And for that I am sorry. I actually anticipated that everyone would render a scoring more like Jdizzleans. I'm not too worried in that it appears that converting everything to a unified system doesn't require a whole lot more leg work.

We just take the three judgments that scored in every category separately, derive first second and third placement, and issue trophies for total overall score.

Cool... We all interpreted the same instructions differently - just like the whole challenge!

Oh, I realized I misspoke a bit in my judgement, there are a couple of routes to godhood in 3.5 that slipped my mind... becoming a quasideity through the Dragon Ascendant PrC, and using a God Trap from Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk.

[Ripptor]

Can confirm I did my own addition correctly, on a re-read. Here's that follow-up on the rules questions for the Groesse Perte build!


I’m unsure if your build is rules legal as a Dragonwrought Kobold is Type Dragon rather than Humanoid and thus not a legal target for the Tauric Template.
This was a common concern amongst judges, but I'll answer it for you since it was your only concern. Type juggling is always fun, whether it be Javascript or DnD Character creation :smallsmile:

Tauric is an inherited template. Per the Monster Manual, "templates known as inherited templates are part of a creature from the beginning of its existence. Examples include the celestial, fiendish, half-celestial, half-dragon, and half-fiend templates—all assume the creature was born with the template." To determine timing then, we need to find the step in Character creation where existence gives way to growth, as well as where it is mechanically necessary to wait / have already chosen your inherited template. We need to choose a window after which we can meet the requirements of the template, but before which the template is itself required.

The Player Handbook outlines the creation process in steps:
Step 1 is check for variant rules (The universe you are born into), which pre-dates the PCs birth.
Step 2 is Ability scores, which are your PCs natural ability / birthright. So this is a minimal floor for birth timing, however we are unable to apply a template without first knowing
the character's Race and Type.
Step 3 is choosing a Race, then class. Race is also determined by birth, however class is by training/growth... No one breaks out the shell as a level 1 Fighter.
Additionally, this is where the decision to overwrite RHD with a class level comes into play: As Inherited templates can add RHD (invalidating this choice) this is a natural ceiling for
adding Inherited templates, otherwise there would be significant ret-conning of the character build. As such, Inherited templates must be applied after Race, but before Class.
Step 4 is assign and adjust Ability scores. As this requires knowing your ability score modifiers, inherited templates would also be required to occur before this stage.
Step 5, consider a Starting Package for steps 6-8.
Step 6, add Racial and Class features.
Step 7, select Skills.
Step 8, select Feats.
Step 9, select Equipment.
Step 10, calculate HD, BAB, Saves, etc.

So, in Step 3 we choose the Race Kobold, gaining the Humanoid type. Before trading our first RHD for a class level, we add the inherited template Tauric, gaining 2 additional RHD and changing to type Monstrous Humanoid. We are now a Monstrous Humanoid Kobold with 3 RHD, and thus ineligible for choosing a class level to replace our first RHD. We continue through and much later at Step 8, we choose our first level feat Dragonwrought, which requires only the Kobold Race (which we have maintained), changing our type to Dragon. Then we calculate our HD/BAB/Saves from her three Dragon Hit Dice, and advance accordingly.

Thus, we are only fleetingly a Monstrous Humanoid pre-birth, meeting all requirements for the above and starting the game (and life) as a Tauric Kobold(True Dragon) with 3 Dragon RHD, immediately blossoming into a Colossal serpent when she reaches Venerable. This was the crux of her "Growth Spurt" build, which could be done with any other inherited template that adds 2+ RHD. I had considered Multiheaded, but using Tauric for a Magebred Winged Phynxkin gave more of what was needed for the build I envisioned... though with the update adding LA it's probably the better option.


Puk, Gangi, and Groesse all break the 20 level limit - by the Iron Chef rules we’re using, racial hit dice are equated to class levels, which is backed up by the rules for dragon advancement in the Draconomicon, pages 142 through 144 - but since they’ve all done this, this aspect is all evened out.
Groesse has 3 RHD and 17 Class levels, so she should be all set on the 20 level limit here (Though she is indeed the only one to do so).


Groesse also uses virtual age categories to take on draconic form, despite not being a ‘standard’ dragon and uses their draconic heritage to do so ...
This is what being a 'True Dragon' offers per RAW. I'm not sure what a 'standard' dragon is, or where those rules may be listed, but all 'True Dragons' may advance via Hit Dice via the True Dragon rules.


it would appear that the base creature also has quite a bit of non-approved LA (+2 from tauric, +1 from winged, and +1 from magebred, the limit being LA+0) ... I’m not seeing any way for magebred to negate LA as stated in the entry
Tauric in the SS has no LA (This was apparently updated, which I did miss!) but it ignores the LA of the 'Base Creature', so she receives no LA from choosing a templated base creature (Winged Magebred).


Magebred can only be applied to animals (neither the kobold or the phynxkin is an animal)
Phynxkin is an Animal(Dragonblood) per Dragon Magic p116, as cited in the build. I'm not sure where you may be reading otherwise?


By being tauric, they become a monstrous humanoid and not a true dragon, regular dragon, or kobold from that point on. ... Groesse comes in last for straying farthest, unintentionally using a monstrous humanoid as an ingredient.
This is a misunderstanding of how Race vs. Type works, as well as the rules for Inherited Templates and Character Creation (see above). Changing a creature type does not negate your race, you simply become a Kobold (Monstrous Humanoid). This still allows you to take the Dragonwrought feat later (as humanoid is not a requirement), which then overrides her type from Monstrous Humanoid into Dragon.


I don’t think Slight build works when your base form is Colossal, even if by RAW its effects do. ... However squeezing into a 64 foot space when you are larger than 64 feet doesn’t seem like that big of a deal. Any underground cavern or tunnel that is that big would be hard to find.
I'm not sure why Slight Build wouldn't work, but the main draw is the ability to squeeze into a 10ft space, despite usually taking up 30ft. 10ft wide hallways are the most common, and not all large caverns have equally cavernous hallways/doors between them. Not needing to Polymorph / Alter Self / Sit out an encounter due to size is useful, but much more important is the halving of the size modifier penalties, which I just love.


Point buy seems largely irrelevant beyond stacking one side of your scores up as you’re going to ignore half of your attributes anyways.
Groesse uses All of her attributes, so I'm not sure why this would be believed / penalized.. High STR allows her to attack and grapple, 18 Dex ups AC and covers pre-reqs, High Con makes her very survivable, her high Int barely covers her skill pre-reqs, while WIS and CHA are both important casting stats.


(((Tauric Seems an off choice, plus, a DWK is a dragon, not a humanoid, so you can’t even apply it.))) ... Further, since you’re doing your build table to reflect templates at various levels, instead of starting at that level, you are already a DWK at level 1, so when you have your phynxkin racial hd, and then apply the rest of those things to it, you actually can’t take tauric as you are no longer a humanoid but a dragon.
A DWK is a humanoid until the Dragonwrought feat is taken, well after the Inherited template is applied (See above). Additionally, despite how I may choose to display my build table to make it easier for judges to understand and read, it may never supercede the 3.5 Character Creation rules as written. RHD are always assigned before feat selection, regardless of the chosen race.


MMII has an update to 3.5 that affects Tauric: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a meaning that your LA after applying Tauric is actually the base humanoid +3.
This I did not know! That does nerf the Tauric template rather heavily, and would force me to consider other options.


Kobold Endurance can be taken instead of endurance when you gain endurance as a bonus feat, not just anytime you feel like taking it.
Endurance is gained as a bonus feat via the Magebred template, not just anytime I felt like taking it, so this is a legal substitution.


Initiate of Aasterinian requires 3rd lvl Cleric when you take it, which you don’t have.
As noted underneath the build table, True Dragons automatically qualify for anything with Dragonblood as a prerequisite, so this is legally ignored.


Spelldancer requires some elvish blood, which a tauric dwk who happens to be a true dragon, wouldn’t have. Which then means you don’t qualify for Fochlucan Lyrist.
This is not a requirement per Magic of Faerun, it's errata, or the online material still provided by WotC themselves. I'm curious as to where you are reading this?


Once you take Sublime Chord, you can’t take another class until you take all 10 lvl’s per the restriction from Bardic Lock.
This is also not a requirement per Complete Arcane or it's errata, much like the above. Googling 'Bardic Lock', I've found only one website where it's listed as a house rule, which is all I can find on the matter... Perhaps you are using incorrect online reference material?

And that's it! The one piece I missed is the 3.5 Tauric update, which saddens me... LA +3 is a rather large hit to that template, which gets little enough love as is. I have to admit, I am struggling to cover all the rules needed in the submission, as I continue to hit the character limit on these forum posts, and that's just for the things I think I need to cover! I didn't consider I would have to cover how to apply templates in my post, which appears to have lost me several points across all of the judges. Though, I did also lose points for several of the points that I did explain, as well as things that are simply untrue, so perhaps that wouldn't have helped anyway :smallsmile:

Looking forward to the next challenge, though I'm going to have to take a breather if we're doing another large build. This was just ... so much. So, so much. :smalleek:

[Bronk]

So, in Step 3 we choose the Race Kobold, gaining the Humanoid type. Before trading our first RHD for a class level, we add the inherited template Tauric, gaining 2 additional RHD and changing to type Monstrous Humanoid. We are now a Monstrous Humanoid Kobold with 3 RHD, and thus ineligible for choosing a class level to replace our first RHD. We continue through and much later at Step 8, we choose our first level feat Dragonwrought, which requires only the Kobold Race (which we have maintained), changing our type to Dragon. Then we calculate our HD/BAB/Saves from her three Dragon Hit Dice, and advance accordingly.

Thus, we are only fleetingly a Monstrous Humanoid pre-birth, meeting all requirements for the above and starting the game (and life) as a Tauric Kobold(True Dragon) with 3 Dragon RHD, immediately blossoming into a Colossal serpent when she reaches Venerable. This was the crux of her "Growth Spurt" build, which could be done with any other inherited template that adds 2+ RHD. I had considered Multiheaded, but using Tauric for a Magebred Winged Phynxkin gave more of what was needed for the build I envisioned... though with the update adding LA it's probably the better option.


Although the template also states that it gains feats as a monstrous humanoid, I see that it does say it favors those of it's two constituents. I'm sorry, I guess you're right about that! That's just the kind of fine reading of the rules that makes these fun. It looks like I stopped looking into it as closely when I saw that the tauric template was immediately disqualifying due to the LA.



Groesse has 3 RHD and 17 Class levels, so she should be all set on the 20 level limit here (Though she is indeed the only one to do so).


I'm sorry, I think I mixed Gangi up with Puk there! There's still that extra LA though...



This is what being a 'True Dragon' offers per RAW. I'm not sure what a 'standard' dragon is, or where those rules may be listed, but all 'True Dragons' may advance via Hit Dice via the True Dragon rules.

I was referring to Draconomicon, page 99, in the section on advanced dragon's age categories, where it says that virtual age categories are gained by 'standard dragons', not true dragons. Dragonwrought kobolds are pretty far from standard, even if they are true dragons.

The true dragon section states that dragons advance by age. They also advance by size, but according to variety, and DWK's charts don't advance the same way.

I also think there was a disconnect between being a true dragon and using virtual age categories to gain the progression and form of the specific dragon from the DWK's heritage. I haven't seen any rule that would allow anything beyond what's stated in the draconic heritage tables in Dragon Magic. If it were a thing though, for this build, a tauric creature also only gains the special abilities of the base creature (except as listed later in the entry, etc.) and the DWK isn't the base creature.



Tauric in the SS has no LA (This was apparently updated, which I did miss!) but it ignores the LA of the 'Base Creature', so she receives no LA from choosing a templated base creature (Winged Magebred).

The entry for Tauric in MM2 doesn't ignore the LA of the base creature so much as just never mentioning LA at all, so it also doesn't provide instructions for negating LA.



Phynxkin is an Animal(Dragonblood) per Dragon Magic p116, as cited in the build. I'm not sure where you may be reading otherwise?

I missed this completely... I thought the Phynxkin had the dragon type.

Speaking of which, what was the rationale for the magebred template allowing for extra RHD and shielding from LA? Adding RHD seems like more of a warbeast thing, and I'm at a loss about the LA bit.



Looking forward to the next challenge, though I'm going to have to take a breather if we're doing another large build. This was just ... so much. So, so much. :smalleek:

Oh yeah, I'm hoping for another E6 or so for the next one too. That was a lot to keep track of!

[daremetoidareyo]

Raikirah, I think you're the gold medalist. What do you want the next round to be, I only ask that it isn't pokemon pet battle, because it has way too many rules that need to be composed for my time crunched life right now.

The people have spoken, and they said E6 please.

So what sort of E6 competition would you like the next round to be.

Other competitors, what do you want to see come up next?

[Ripptor]

Although the template also states that it gains feats as a monstrous humanoid, I see that it does say it favors those of it's two constituents. I'm sorry, I guess you're right about that! That's just the kind of fine reading of the rules that makes these fun. It looks like I stopped looking into it as closely when I saw that the tauric template was immediately disqualifying due to the LA.
...
I'm sorry, I think I mixed Gangi up with Puk there! There's still that extra LA though...
Yes, the LA update to Tauric does have her accidentally fall off the wagon there :smallsmile:


I was referring to Draconomicon, page 99, in the section on advanced dragon's age categories, where it says that virtual age categories are gained by 'standard dragons', not true dragons. Dragonwrought kobolds are pretty far from standard, even if they are true dragons.

The true dragon section states that dragons advance by age. They also advance by size, but according to variety, and DWK's charts don't advance the same way.
Kobolds do have their own age categories chart for their particular variety, and do advance by age, but they do not gain RHD from age as most dragons. They can advance by size if they do gain enough RHD, via the advanced dragon aging rules in the SRD. The Draconomicon doesn't reverse these rules anywhere I can see.


I also think there was a disconnect between being a true dragon and using virtual age categories to gain the progression and form of the specific dragon from the DWK's heritage. I haven't seen any rule that would allow anything beyond what's stated in the draconic heritage tables in Dragon Magic. If it were a thing though, for this build, a tauric creature also only gains the special abilities of the base creature (except as listed later in the entry, etc.) and the DWK isn't the base creature.
Tauric creatures have the all of the special attacks and special qualities of both the base humanoid and base creature, so it would gain all of the racial special attacks and racial special features from virtual age categories as well. The language for 'abilities' is talking about 'ability score adjustments', for which the base creature determines the three physical modifiers at the start, but doesn't make the character immune to aging gains/penalties for the rest of its life. It would start with the three physical ability scores from point buy, add on the modifiers from the base creature (ignoring the racial modifiers from the base humanoid), and then any further modifiers would be added as usual. The argument that a centaur would not suffer age penalties to their physical stats afterwards because they are protected via this clause would not work.


The entry for Tauric in MM2 doesn't ignore the LA of the base creature so much as just never mentioning LA at all, so it also doesn't provide instructions for negating LA.
Specific instructions are not required, as the rules are already clear in the general. The rules for templates specify that if something is not listed, it is unchanged. A template with no LA listed therefore does not modify a race's LA at all. (Templates with LA - are specifically listed as non-PC races/templates) Therefore, Tauric had an original LA of +0 in SS, until it was later amended in MM2.


I missed this completely... I thought the Phynxkin had the dragon type.

Speaking of which, what was the rationale for the magebred template allowing for extra RHD and shielding from LA? Adding RHD seems like more of a warbeast thing, and I'm at a loss about the LA bit.
It's only dragonblooded to start, but I did evolve it via Dragonwrought to make it go all the way here :smallbiggrin:

Magebred does not shield from LA, Tauric does via the rules. Even after the MM2 update, Tauric always adds exactly 3 LA, regardless of the LA of the base creature (additional templates on the base humanoid would work as usual). If you pick a base creature with LA +10, Tauric will actually reduce that to LA +3. There's gotta be some use for that somewhere, but a minimum of 2+ RHD and LA +3 is a brutal start to most builds.


Oh yeah, I'm hoping for another E6 or so for the next one too. That was a lot to keep track of!

Speaking of LA, why don't we do something else that the usual contests don't allow?

How about E6 with the specific E6 LA Point buy rules? Minimum 3 LA with 10 Point buy, or LA 4 with 0 Point buy? With so little say over your ability scores, you've really got to play to your race's strengths and weaknesses, plus we can use some of the more unusual races that get no love due to their LA :smallsmile:

The theme/goal could be making a racial clan leader, someone who exemplifies the best of their race in an E6 universe? Someone to command attention and respect while keeping their people alive in a murderhobo world all too happy to kill anything even slightly non-humanoid. Que the theme song from "Reincarnated as a Slime" :smallamused:

[daremetoidareyo]

E6 racial hit dice and la that add up to ECL 6 instead of 6 class levels?

So basically a monster with 10 epic feats?

[Bronk]

Kobolds do have their own age categories chart for their particular variety, and do advance by age, but they do not gain RHD from age as most dragons. They can advance by size if they do gain enough RHD, via the advanced dragon aging rules in the SRD. The Draconomicon doesn't reverse these rules anywhere I can see.

It's the 'standard dragon' clause that nixes it.

The other two entries went even further though, using regular class level HD as RHD to get size, then size to get more RHD, and size and RHD together to pop into the full draconic form of their respective draconic heritages. None of those steps are supported.



Tauric creatures have the all of the special attacks and special qualities of both the base humanoid and base creature, so it would gain all of the racial special attacks and racial special features from virtual age categories as well. The language for 'abilities' is talking about 'ability score adjustments', for which the base creature determines the three physical modifiers at the start, but doesn't make the character immune to aging gains/penalties for the rest of its life. It would start with the three physical ability scores from point buy, add on the modifiers from the base creature (ignoring the racial modifiers from the base humanoid), and then any further modifiers would be added as usual. The argument that a centaur would not suffer age penalties to their physical stats afterwards because they are protected via this clause would not work.

There's another line earlier in the Tauric entry that specifies 'special abilities' though, separate from the stat abilities.



Specific instructions are not required, as the rules are already clear in the general. The rules for templates specify that if something is not listed, it is unchanged. A template with no LA listed therefore does not modify a race's LA at all. (Templates with LA - are specifically listed as non-PC races/templates) Therefore, Tauric had an original LA of +0 in SS, until it was later amended in MM2.

Magebred does not shield from LA, Tauric does via the rules. Even after the MM2 update, Tauric always adds exactly 3 LA, regardless of the LA of the base creature (additional templates on the base humanoid would work as usual). If you pick a base creature with LA +10, Tauric will actually reduce that to LA +3. There's gotta be some use for that somewhere, but a minimum of 2+ RHD and LA +3 is a brutal start to most builds.


So, if it's unchanged, then it wouldn't alter the original LA either, I'd think. The template is +0, or +3, in addition to other templates as normal, not set at a flat number.




Speaking of LA, why don't we do something else that the usual contests don't allow?

How about E6 with the specific E6 LA Point buy rules? Minimum 3 LA with 10 Point buy, or LA 4 with 0 Point buy? With so little say over your ability scores, you've really got to play to your race's strengths and weaknesses, plus we can use some of the more unusual races that get no love due to their LA :smallsmile:

The theme/goal could be making a racial clan leader, someone who exemplifies the best of their race in an E6 universe? Someone to command attention and respect while keeping their people alive in a murderhobo world all too happy to kill anything even slightly non-humanoid. Que the theme song from "Reincarnated as a Slime" :smallamused:


I agree... I liked this recent one because I got to make a character I'd always wanted to make, but I was really inspired by the first one! I felt good about that one too, even though I made a couple of initiator level blunders.

Maybe, like the first one, we could include some Dragon Mag stuff, or allow bloodlines too, or something like that? I like the LA aspect as well... maybe a few free points of LA at some point?

[WhamBamSam]

E6 racial hit dice and la that add up to ECL 6 instead of 6 class levels?

So basically a monster with 10 epic feats?I'd rather save "must use X amount or all RHD/LA" for an ECL 20 round, to open up bigger, weirder monsters. Something like 2 free LA in an E6 round, or E6 using LA as an ingredient but with the reduced point buy rules would be rad though.

I'm actually not sure what I'd do with it yet, but I'm still lobbying for E6 Martial Monks. E6 might also be a good format for the "party of 4 clones" round.

[Ripptor]

It's the 'standard dragon' clause that nixes it.

The other two entries went even further though, using regular class level HD as RHD to get size, then size to get more RHD, and size and RHD together to pop into the full draconic form of their respective draconic heritages. None of those steps are supported.
Ah, I do see that argument, now. And that would override the SRD, as the Draconomicon is the source of truth for Dragons. However, there's no definition of 'Standard Dragon' there, or anywhere else in that book, as it is the only mention of that phrase in the entire Draconomicon. I'd still argue that all 'True Dragons' would also grandfather in as a 'Standard Dragon', but it's just completely undefined rules territory :smallsmile: I do agree that class HD do not advance racial features per the rules, and that Dragonwrought doesn't allow the use of another race's aging table to grant RHD.


There's another line earlier in the Tauric entry that specifies 'special abilities' though, separate from the stat abilities.
I'm not sure where you a reading that, 'Special Abilities' is not something defined in the rules or in the Tauric template in MM2, the updated source of the template. The 3.0 version in the SS uses the term 'special abilities' at times throughout the book, but not once in the Tauric template. It's a vernacular that combines Special Attacks and Special Qualities together, which are each clearly and separately handled in both versions of the Tauric template. The MM2 template reads:


Special Attacks: A Tauric creature retains the special attacks of the base humanoid and the base creture, provided that the tauric creature is capable of delivering the attack. The absence of the base creature's head always results in the loss of the base creature's breath weapon or gaze attack.
Special Qualities: A tauric creature retains the special qualities of the base humanoid and the base creature.
Abilities: A tauric creature uses the base humanoid's Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, and it uses the base creature's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores.

Abilities only refers to the 6 Ability scores of a character/creature (both in the tempalte and in the 3.5 rules), and it the only one of those three that is not fully inherited from the combination of both the base humanoid and base creature.


So, if it's unchanged, then it wouldn't alter the original LA either, I'd think. The template is +0, or +3, in addition to other templates as normal, not set at a flat number.
You are misunderstanding the rules, here. In order:

1) You choose a Race (with or without LA), then choose any numer of templates (with or without LA).
2) You combine the listed LA of those races and templates (Kobold LA +0, Tauric LA +3).
2a) If the 'base humanoid' had applied any templates to itself here, then the LA would have increased. A Winged Kobold would have been LA +1.
3) In this instance, these are all of the templates applied to your character, the 'base humanoid'.
4) For Tauric, you may copy over the abilities of the 'base creature', and any RHD (as specifically stated)
5a) If this templates did not specify adding the RHD, it would not occur. That is why it is specified.
5b) No additional LA is added. This is true both in the SS version and in the MM2 version.

The LA of the base creature is never added, along with any templates added to the base creature, much like it's Race, Creature Type, and mental ability scores. Nothing is said that adds them, so they remain on the cutting room floor.

Perhaps I am explaining it poorly... There are a few other in-depth threads on the forums that may do a better job of it:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?256154-Help-with-the-Tauric-template
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?306643-3-5-Tauric-monster-s-base-creature-LA-doesn-t-matter

It's a fun template with some interesting applications, but you have to find a way around the disadvantages... For this contest, the RHD were actually the crux of the build rather than a handicap, for instance. I would advise playing around with it if you've got the time :smallsmile:


E6 racial hit dice and la that add up to ECL 6 instead of 6 class levels?

So basically a monster with 10 epic feats?
Maybe, like the first one, we could include some Dragon Mag stuff, or allow bloodlines too, or something like that? I like the LA aspect as well... maybe a few free points of LA at some point?
Something like 2 free LA in an E6 round, or E6 using LA as an ingredient but with the reduced point buy rules would be rad though.

Lots of interest in an LA round then! I see I wasn't clear, I was proposing using (Requiring the use of, really) the E6 reduced Point Buy rules.

This is something specific to the E6 ruleset that allows you to buy off LA with a reduced Point Buy at character creation. Essentially, you can have up to 6 RHD+Class levels and 0 LA, by reducing your point buy amount. For this contest, it would mean we would each make a 6 level build (RHD plus Class levels) with 10 additional feats. The only difference would be the race and ability selection: You need to choose a Race + Template with a combined 3 or 4 LA. 4 LA means a zero point buy (8s in all base ability scores, before modifiers), but 3 LA means you can use a 10 Point Buy on top. (This is where step 1 in Character Creation comes into effect: Step 2 gets shuffled after Step 3, to determine the point buy amount)

The other E6 contests I have seen on here each specifically remove this E6 rule from the competition, so it would be fun to see it not only used but forced at the max. I like using non-standard races to create variety in my worlds, and it could be a fun way to create more 'Elite' yet niche monster encounters.

In short: 10/0 Point Buy, 3/4 Free LA, 6 RHD/Class Levels (No additional LA), and 10 E6 feats. How does that sound?

[RaiKirah]

I had a lot of fun with this round, and am thrilled that people seemed to like Puk. There's clearly some significant rules issues/confusion for all of us about each other's builds, and it's been interesting to see what the chef's thought processes were, particularly since it seems clear that none of us judges necessarily understood what was going on entirely. While I don't know if any of the discussion we've had would have materially affected the outcomes of the judgements, I think it's clear that our judgement process could maybe use some additional tweaking, as this competition seems to encourage getting deep into the wilds of RAW interpretation. Maybe a round of disputes, or allowing a round of the judges conferring on the rules areas of difficulty might help. This round not all the judges had the same rules issues, and might have been able to clarify for each other. I'm not sure what the answer is, but it might behoove us to implement something.



With respect to the next round, I'm definitely on board for E6 with some relaxed rules. Allowing LA buy-off or flat out giving free LA could be a lot of fun. Adding in the 'party of 4 clones' thing could be great too, though that might better lend itself to an ECL20 build as there's way more options with more class levels (then again, might get a bit nuts there....hmmmm).

I'm thinking we go with an E6 round with LA (either free or bought), with some additional wrinkle to add some spice. I'll leave that part open for discussion (or host fiat) and open the floor!

[Bronk]

I'm not sure where you a reading that, 'Special Abilities' is not something defined in the rules or in the Tauric template in MM2, the updated source of the template.

I'm going from here in the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm

It lists a few different kinds, including natural abilities:


This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

In the MM2's version of the Tauric template, it has this line, just above the size section:


It otherwise uses all the base creature’s attributes and special abilities except as noted below.

Natural abilities aren't listed, so wouldn't be retained from the base humanoid, and I think that would include being able to take the dragonwrought feat. The line is different but more comprehensive in the savage species version.



You are misunderstanding the rules, here. In order:

1) You choose a Race (with or without LA), then choose any numer of templates (with or without LA).
2) You combine the listed LA of those races and templates (Kobold LA +0, Tauric LA +3).
2a) If the 'base humanoid' had applied any templates to itself here, then the LA would have increased. A Winged Kobold would have been LA +1.
3) In this instance, these are all of the templates applied to your character, the 'base humanoid'.
4) For Tauric, you may copy over the abilities of the 'base creature', and any RHD (as specifically stated)
5a) If this templates did not specify adding the RHD, it would not occur. That is why it is specified.
5b) No additional LA is added. This is true both in the SS version and in the MM2 version.

The LA of the base creature is never added, along with any templates added to the base creature, much like it's Race, Creature Type, and mental ability scores. Nothing is said that adds them, so they remain on the cutting room floor.

Perhaps I am explaining it poorly... There are a few other in-depth threads on the forums that may do a better job of it:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?256154-Help-with-the-Tauric-template
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?306643-3-5-Tauric-monster-s-base-creature-LA-doesn-t-matter

It's a fun template with some interesting applications, but you have to find a way around the disadvantages... For this contest, the RHD were actually the crux of the build rather than a handicap, for instance. I would advise playing around with it if you've got the time :smallsmile:


I read through this, then the two threads, then MM2 and SS again, and then the MM2 update booklet.

So, I think both of those threads came to the wrong conclusion, and the reason is that the booklet is only updating the LA of the example creature (along with the rest of the stat block), apparently to match the LA of the griffon being added to the hobgoblin in the example. In this case, the hobgoblin is LA +1, so the griffon half would add +3 to that for a +4. It's not outright stating that the LA of the template is +3, or that the LA of either of creatures going into this are negated or overwritten. This also matches up with the rules for adding level adjustments in SS, MM, and the DMG.

So, with that in mind, Tauric would actually still have an unlisted LA, but going from the example critter the final product would have the LA of both of its constituents added together, and RAI the Tauric template itself appears to be LA+0 but just for cohorts. What a mess.



Lots of interest in an LA round then! I see I wasn't clear, I was proposing using (Requiring the use of, really) the E6 reduced Point Buy rules.

This is something specific to the E6 ruleset that allows you to buy off LA with a reduced Point Buy at character creation. Essentially, you can have up to 6 RHD+Class levels and 0 LA, by reducing your point buy amount. For this contest, it would mean we would each make a 6 level build (RHD plus Class levels) with 10 additional feats. The only difference would be the race and ability selection: You need to choose a Race + Template with a combined 3 or 4 LA. 4 LA means a zero point buy (8s in all base ability scores, before modifiers), but 3 LA means you can use a 10 Point Buy on top. (This is where step 1 in Character Creation comes into effect: Step 2 gets shuffled after Step 3, to determine the point buy amount)

The other E6 contests I have seen on here each specifically remove this E6 rule from the competition, so it would be fun to see it not only used but forced at the max. I like using non-standard races to create variety in my worlds, and it could be a fun way to create more 'Elite' yet niche monster encounters.

In short: 10/0 Point Buy, 3/4 Free LA, 6 RHD/Class Levels (No additional LA), and 10 E6 feats. How does that sound?

I think I could get behind that, although I think it would be easier to just have some free LA to play around with.


While I don't know if any of the discussion we've had would have materially affected the outcomes of the judgements, I think it's clear that our judgement process could maybe use some additional tweaking, as this competition seems to encourage getting deep into the wilds of RAW interpretation. Maybe a round of disputes, or allowing a round of the judges conferring on the rules areas of difficulty might help. This round not all the judges had the same rules issues, and might have been able to clarify for each other. I'm not sure what the answer is, but it might behoove us to implement something.

I would rather we still didn't have a dispute process... I like how we're having fun talking about rules at this point, not arguing over scores or potential scores.

[daremetoidareyo]

I am inclined to agree with bronk on the congenial nature of the rules discussion set up occurred after this particular contest. There is something naturally oppositional to the dispute process. Whereas getting into the deep Wilds of raw discussion with less of a personal bias seems more conducive to deeper discussion.




It appears that the people want some LA. Do we want an E6 werebeasts round (gestalt any racial hit dice and no la from lycan- or entoma -thrope templates)?

Or do we allow a certain amount of LA, and combine it with something like the martial Monk from dragon magazine, or unarmed swordsage or something?

[RaiKirah]

I am inclined to agree with bronk on the congenial nature of the rules discussion set up occurred after this particular contest. There is something naturally oppositional to the dispute process. Whereas getting into the deep Wilds of raw discussion with less of a personal bias seems more conducive to deeper discussion.

I would rather we still didn't have a dispute process... I like how we're having fun talking about rules at this point, not arguing over scores or potential scores.

Sounds good to me - discussions are great!

[Bronk]

So... what's the next challenge going to be?

[daremetoidareyo]

That's where I stalled.

Y'all want e6. No prob.
Y'all want LA, cool.
Dragon 310 I see get mentioned a lot.

But doing LA changes what can be done with dragon 310.

I was going to compose the clone party idea, but it is too time intensive for me right now, and I refuse to use my phone to compose these threads.

E6 dragon 310? How do y'all feel about that? Flaws or no?

[Bronk]

That's where I stalled.

Y'all want e6. No prob.
Y'all want LA, cool.
Dragon 310 I see get mentioned a lot.

But doing LA changes what can be done with dragon 310.

I was going to compose the clone party idea, but it is too time intensive for me right now, and I refuse to use my phone to compose these threads.

E6 dragon 310? How do y'all feel about that? Flaws or no?

E6 (or even 8 or 10 as was mentioned earlier), 310, sounds great to me.

I'd like to use flaws, or do you mean adding dragon magazine flaws in general?

Is Dragon 310 the theme in itself, or did you have a more specific theme in mind?

[daremetoidareyo]

E6 (or even 8 or 10 as was mentioned earlier), 310, sounds great to me.

I'd like to use flaws, or do you mean adding dragon magazine flaws in general?

Is Dragon 310 the theme in itself, or did you have a more specific theme in mind?

Ua flaws

That was another stumbling block. The whole issue is acfs for mundanes. We could just allow the whole issue. The theme will be; E6 Beatsticks!

[Bronk]

Ua flaws

That was another stumbling block. The whole issue is acfs for mundanes. We could just allow the whole issue. The theme will be; E6 Beatsticks!

That sounds pretty awesome...

[Ripptor]

Sorry, I got behind on here!


I am inclined to agree with bronk on the congenial nature of the rules discussion set up occurred after this particular contest. There is something naturally oppositional to the dispute process. Whereas getting into the deep Wilds of raw discussion with less of a personal bias seems more conducive to deeper discussion.

I'm happy without a dispute process, I'm not here for the points :smallsmile: I've had a good amount of judging mistakes on my last two builds that held them back, but I doubt it's been malicious, we just have different levels of experience with the rules. I'm having fun :smallbiggrin:

I'd love to hear some thoughts from the other judges though! Especially if we're looking at a monstrous LA round next... Tauric could be useful there, and it would be great to know in advance how we all feel about it rules-wise... What does the template reading 'LA: Base Humanoid +3' mean? Is the base creature's LA ignored for a flat +3, or did they intend it to mean you keep the LA, and WotC just miscalculated and mistyped?

Actually, on that note, it would be great if more of the submissions were rules-legal... I was hoping for some DM-spiration to throw at my group, but I can't use most of the last two rounds of build ideas due to them being flat-out impossible, even with editing. That said, I'm not sure how to accomplish that... Perhaps the earlier suggestion for some pre-game rules clarification would help? IDK.


It appears that the people want some LA. Do we want an E6 werebeasts round (gestalt any racial hit dice and no la from lycan- or entoma -thrope templates)?

Or do we allow a certain amount of LA, and combine it with something like the martial Monk from dragon magazine, or unarmed swordsage or something?


That's where I stalled.

Y'all want e6. No prob.
Y'all want LA, cool.
Dragon 310 I see get mentioned a lot.

But doing LA changes what can be done with dragon 310.

I was going to compose the clone party idea, but it is too time intensive for me right now, and I refuse to use my phone to compose these threads.

E6 dragon 310? How do y'all feel about that? Flaws or no?

If i'm understanding this correctly...

E6 Gestalt:

Six levels per track
1st track RHD + LA only (capped at 6 total)
2nd track classes only
10 Epic6 feats, after both tracks are filled
Secret ingredient is Dragon 310, in it's entirety(?)
Two flaws from Unearthed Arcana, at no penalty


If so, I'm down! Lets go nuts! :smallbiggrin:

[Bronk]

I'd love to hear some thoughts from the other judges though! Especially if we're looking at a monstrous LA round next... Tauric could be useful there, and it would be great to know in advance how we all feel about it rules-wise... What does the template reading 'LA: Base Humanoid +3' mean? Is the base creature's LA ignored for a flat +3, or did they intend it to mean you keep the LA, and WotC just miscalculated and mistyped?


I know how I feel about it, but who knows, other people might want to use it too... it is fun. Maybe you could post it on the Q&A thread and see what the consensus is over there? If nothing else, it would be interesting to see their reasoning if the question gets picked up.

(Edit: After looking at it more from a player's perspective, I'd say RAI it's meant to be LA+0, RAW probably LA+3 due to parsing out each sentence of the poorly worded update booklet separately because of the semicolons, but in both cases you'd still add in LA from both sides along with the RHD.)


That said, I'm not sure how to accomplish that... Perhaps the earlier suggestion for some pre-game rules clarification would help? IDK.

It looks like the iron chef people tend not to do that because they're afraid of their ideas being sniped. I don't know if it would work for us, or if it would just put potential arguments earlier in the thread. It looks like the OP didn't play this round... if they're going to sit out every round, maybe they could act as a DM and make rulings that we'd have to stick to, at least for the competition? (If so, the OP could also make a ruling on the tauric template for the competition..)




If i'm understanding this correctly...

E6 Gestalt:

Six levels per track
1st track RHD + LA only (capped at 6 total)
2nd track classes only
10 Epic6 feats, after both tracks are filled
Secret ingredient is Dragon 310, in it's entirety(?)
Two flaws from Unearthed Arcana, at no penalty


If so, I'm down! Lets go nuts! :smallbiggrin:

Hmm, I'd missed the gestalt bit. Interesting!

[Ripptor]

Oh, I'm also down for waiving the 2 LA on lycanthropy, the RHD is enough!

[daremetoidareyo]

The new comp is up!:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?576522-Game-Warper-s-Optimization-Challenge-3-Beflawed-E6-Beatsticks-Dragon-310-allowed!&p=23580249#post23580249

Sorry, no LA or RHD for this comp. I want to see what a more table legal dragon 310 can inspire yall to create. I promise that the werebeast competition with the gestalt RHD and free lycanthrope LA will be next time.



Thank you all for a rousing round of theoretical optimization and discussion!