Player wants to play a Cryomancer type mage, but...

[hdcoffey]

I am running a game in my schools Tabletop club. The group I am DMing for has completely new players. The PCs consist of a Wood Elf Cleric, Human Sorcerer, Tiefling Warlock, and a Dragonborn Paladin. All of the players seem satisfied with their characters aside from the sorcerer. He seems to be wanting to a Cryomancer themed character, however is disappointed in the lack of ice themed spells. I have told him he can reflavor some spells like hold person to be like you are freezing the enemy instead of normal paralysis however he still has issues. He feels that he isn't as effective in combat as his peers. Any tips? I think he wants to be able to do more with the ice than just damage. Like he said he wants to have a more fine manipulation of ice, like i guess just more variety. They recently just made it to level 3, and I am running Princes of the Apocalypse module.

[Man_Over_Game]

There ARE options, and surprisingly enough, Cold doesn't actually have it half bad.

Level 0 Cold spells: 2
Level 0 Lightning spells: 2

Level 1 Cold Spells: 1
Level 1 Lightning Spells: 1

Level 2 Cold Spells: 1
Level 2 Lightning Spells: 0.

Sorcerers get Fog Cloud, Dragon's Breath (which can do Cold damage), Gaseous Form, Sleet Storm, and plenty of other abilities.

The main concern, though is that Blaster-style Sorcerers need to go as Fire. For these kinds of abilities, he needs to focus more on control. Sorcerers actually do some significant things as a controller since they can concentrate on two things at once (via Twinned spell), they can double the range, and they can increase the duration of those spells, which dramatically increase how powerful Concentration spells are, and usually Concentration spells are game-changing to begin with.

Your team already has a Warlock and a Paladin; doing flashy damage isn't what the Sorcerer is going to stand out doing, no matter what build you decide to do.

However, if it's still a major concern, you could probably take the Storm Sorcerer and replace all instances of Thunder damage with Cold damage and it'd probably do just fine. You are the DM, you have that power.

[hdcoffey]

There ARE options, and surprisingly enough, Cold doesn't actually have it half bad.

Level 0 Cold spells: 2
Level 0 Lightning spells: 2

Level 1 Cold Spells: 1
Level 1 Lightning Spells: 1

Level 2 Cold Spells: 1
Level 2 Lightning Spells: 0.

Sorcerers get Fog Cloud, Dragon's Breath (which can do Cold damage), Gaseous Form, Sleet Storm, and plenty of other abilities.

The main concern, though is that Blaster-style Sorcerers need to go as Fire. For these kinds of abilities, he needs to focus more on control. Sorcerers actually do some significant things as a controller since they can concentrate on two things at once (via Twinned spell), they can double the range, and they can increase the duration of those spells, which dramatically increase how powerful those things are.

Your team already has a Warlock and a Paladin; doing flashy damage isn't what the Sorcerer is going to stand out doing, no matter what build you decide to do.

However, if it's still a major concern, you could probably take the Storm Sorcerer and replace all instances of Thunder damage with Cold damage and it'd probably do just fine. You are the DM, you have that power.

Thank you for the quick response, I appreciate it. I will try to use this information to help him out and i might end up doing the storm sorcerer thing if the thing you mentioned about spells doesn't convince him. Thanks again!

[Man_Over_Game]

Thank you for the quick response, I appreciate it. I will try to use this information to help him out and i might end up doing the storm sorcerer thing if the thing you mentioned about spells doesn't convince him. Thanks again!

Here's some quick advice for your friend, or anyone trying to decide on what to do:

Take a look at your team. Now take a look at your team once you're removed from it. What did the party lose?

Now focus on that. Make that component all of your being, and own it. Nobody else can do that, so that needs to be your specialty.

In this case, Clerics have healing, Warlocks have high consistent damage, Paladins have tankiness and burst damage, and Sorcerers have control of the entire battlefield.

[Bloodcloud]

I am running a game in my schools Tabletop club. The group I am DMing for has completely new players. The PCs consist of a Wood Elf Cleric, Human Sorcerer, Tiefling Warlock, and a Dragonborn Paladin. All of the players seem satisfied with their characters aside from the sorcerer. He seems to be wanting to a Cryomancer themed character, however is disappointed in the lack of ice themed spells. I have told him he can reflavor some spells like hold person to be like you are freezing the enemy instead of normal paralysis however he still has issues. He feels that he isn't as effective in combat as his peers. Any tips? I think he wants to be able to do more with the ice than just damage. Like he said he wants to have a more fine manipulation of ice, like i guess just more variety. They recently just made it to level 3, and I am running Princes of the Apocalypse module.

Has he checked the elemental evil supplement? There's a few spell in there if nothing else.

Over reflavoring, allowing him to switch some elemental spell to ice shouldn't pose any problem. Cold fireballs won't break anything.

[MaxWilson]

I am running a game in my schools Tabletop club. The group I am DMing for has completely new players. The PCs consist of a Wood Elf Cleric, Human Sorcerer, Tiefling Warlock, and a Dragonborn Paladin. All of the players seem satisfied with their characters aside from the sorcerer. He seems to be wanting to a Cryomancer themed character, however is disappointed in the lack of ice themed spells. I have told him he can reflavor some spells like hold person to be like you are freezing the enemy instead of normal paralysis however he still has issues. He feels that he isn't as effective in combat as his peers. Any tips? I think he wants to be able to do more with the ice than just damage. Like he said he wants to have a more fine manipulation of ice, like i guess just more variety. They recently just made it to level 3, and I am running Princes of the Apocalypse module.

Make up some rules for spell research during downtime, using gold, time, a research library, and some Arcana rolls, and let him go wild with his creativity. Assign appropriate Arcana DCs to the spells he wants to research. Enjoy what happens after that.

Iterate on your spell research rules as necessary to iron out any bugs.

[EmeraldFire]

The Storm Sorcerer with Cold damage is a good suggestion.

A common fix I've used in games I DM is to reskin a spell to fit the theme (or change the damage type).

Level 1
Burning Hands: Have it deal Cold instead of Fire damage. It becomes a blizzard effect, kind of a smaller Cone of Cold. Instead of objects igniting, have them freeze and shatter.
Expeditious Retreat: Ice the ground beneath your feet to slide around.
Mage Armor: Have sheets of ice cover your body.
Shield: Summons a shield of ice to block an attack
Sleep: A deep cold puts the creatures in the area to sleep.

Level 2
Blur: Could have a snow effect. Less of a 'blur' and more of a whirlwind of sleet and snow that disrupts incoming attacks.
Darkness: Emulate the long nights of the arctic.
Gust of Wind: Follows a blizzard theme.
Hold Person: As you stated, can be themed to freeze people.
Mirror Image: Could summon sorta simulacrums of yourself (copies made of ice and snow that look real until they die)
Scorching Ray: Deal Cold damage instead and have it be spikes of ice.
Web: Reflavor it to be a freezing area.


I've found that many spells can fit a lot of themes without major changes to their mechanics (such as damage type), or no changes at all.

[Vogie]

If UA is available, I'd use a Sea Sorcerer Core with a dip in warlock.

Sea Sorcerer Augments all of your Cold damage spells and makes your Ice & controlling spells more control-y. You'll have Chill Touch, Frostbite & Ray of Frost as your main collection of cantrips. Any type of control spells can also be refluffed as frost effects - Hold person could be a freeze, Mage armor is ice armor, Sunbeam as Ice Beam, and so on. Sorcerer typically has at least 1 cold themed spell, such as Sleet Storm, Ice Storm, Cone of Cold, and so on.

As for the Warlock Dip:

A 2 level dip gives you a pair of spellslots that can be turned into sorc points, gives access to AoA, and either repelling blast or grasp of Hadar, both of which are augmented by Curse of the Sea, which you may ask your DM if you can retune your EB to deal cold damage.
A 3 level dip adds the ability to summon ice weapons with Pact of the Blade
A 5 level dip gives you access to the AOE cold spell Hunger of Hadar, as well as Tome Of Levestus, which allows you to encase yourself in ice


As for Patron, go with Hexblade, which will also give you the Elemental Weapon spell, and, since we're using UA already, the Chilling Hex Invocation (Since the effect wasn't released in XGtE, instead rolled into Maddening hex, but if you ask the DM, you may be able to combine the 2 into a "Maddening Chill Hex", which is just Maddening hex that does cold damage, but still requires 5th level)

[KOLE]

I would agree with what everyone said above- reskin the spells. If you want to put extra effort, you yourself could rewrite a few spells from the Sorc list with fire swapped for cold and new flavor text- everything else the same. For example, call fireball Blizzard Ball.

It’s a little stronger- cold damage isnt resisted as much as fire damage- but far from gamebreaking.

[ImproperJustice]

Twin ice knifes are strong at low level.

Shape Water includes ice type components and is a freat utility spell.

Shield could be the creation of ice barriers.

Snowball Swarm is a spell.....
Slow is on the arctic druid list and representative of cold effects.

Sleet Storm is great. Ice Storm and Cone of Cold are solid and investiture of ice or the cold variant of fire shield are decent.
What exactly is he looking for in cold spells?

[hdcoffey]

Wow thank you so much guys these are all really good ideas, I actually just sent him this thread and we are talking about it right now, If you wanna keep posting ideas go ahead I seriously appreciate it.

[Joe the Rat]

Ice is control. You've already had hold person on the list
Grease isn't flammable this edition, so Ice Slick is a valid interpretation. Any sort of hold or terrain befuddlement can be ice-based.

Fog Cloud, Gust of Wind can both be chill. Slow can be chill - it's like a souped up version of Ray of Frost.
Frostbite is Vicious Mockery on Steroid-flavored-milkshakes.

To expand your horizons, consider the Utterdark. Cold beyond cold. Soul-freezing cold. Necrotic Damage. Gives you some options.
If you want to cheat a little... Armor of Agathys. Nothing says cryomancer like coating yourself in temporary hitpoints that bite back. You haven't lived until someone punches you and freezes to death from it.

[Dungeon-noob]

Since you mentioned these are all new players and the sorcerer doesn't feel as powerfull as the rest, are you and your players aware that sorc is the class with the highest skill floor by far? As in, it requires by far the most skill with the game and system to be minimaly competent compared to other classes. This seems to be a common problem with new players playing sorcs, so check if your player is actually as effective as the other players. If not, have a look if you can improve there as well. All the flavor in the world (for most players) won't fix being provebly weaker then your teammates.

I recall there are a few good class guides on sorcs on GitP here, if this is (at least part of) the problem, you can also look at those if that can help.

[Vogie]

Since you mentioned these are all new players and the sorcerer doesn't feel as powerfull as the rest, are you and your players aware that sorc is the class with the highest skill floor by far? As in, it requires by far the most skill with the game and system to be minimaly competent compared to other classes. This seems to be a common problem with new players playing sorcs, so check if your player is actually as effective as the other players. If not, have a look if you can improve there as well. All the flavor in the world (for most players) won't fix being provebly weaker then your teammates.

I recall there are a few good class guides on sorcs on GitP here, if this is (at least part of) the problem, you can also look at those if that can help.

That's a good point... If you're using my concept, but starting at level 1, I'd start off with a couple of warlock levels first, then move into Sorcerer once they have it handled.

[Sariel Vailo]

Can i make a suggestion im here to say a word or two i have a nice idea for you. The middle finger oof vecna has many sights to see including many decent cold spells. http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2017/10/elemental-spells-water.html?m=1

[Aett_Thorn]

As another option, since I didn’t see it mentioned above (though could have missed it) is to see if the player would be willing to switch to an Arctic Land Druid instead (sine you have enough Cha-based casters). They get a decent list of cold-based spells and a lot of control options. Just another thought.

[JackPhoenix]

Twin ice knifes are strong at low level.

Twin Ice Knives also don't exist, because it's AoE spell and can't be twinned.

[ImproperJustice]

Twin Ice Knives also don't exist, because it's AoE spell and can't be twinned.

I think that’s still somewhat open to interpretation since the knife aspect is single target. So it may require a GM call (which this GM may be open to).

[Ganymede]

In my experience, the Fire, Ice, and Lightning damage types are largely fungible. I wouldn't be against offering versions of spells with those damage types swapped around.

[iTreeby]

In my experience, the Fire, Ice, and Lightning damage types are largely fungible. I wouldn't be against offering versions of spells with those damage types swapped around.

Sorcerers a shafted on spells know any way. If they want to blow a spell known on a damage spell, just let them swap the elements and move on. Like if you are worried about it getting out of hand make them pick only one element out of acid, poison, fire or, lightning to count as cold for the purposes of the custom spells. I could even see limiting it to non-cantrips though that might be overboard.

[Man_Over_Game]

Twin Ice Knives also don't exist, because it's AoE spell and can't be twinned.


I think that’s still somewhat open to interpretation since the knife aspect is single target. So it may require a GM call (which this GM may be open to).

Ice Knife can definitely be twinned.


When you Cast a Spell that Targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).

To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level.


Ice Knife does not target any additional creatures, they are within the impact zone. Similarly, you can even twin-cast Fireball, because of the fact that you choose a single point (which can be a creature) which then explodes into the Fireball spell.

The emphasis is the term Target in Twinned Spell. Effectively, as long as you can only make a single choice on a single point, the spell is valid.

------

Or rather, that's what I THOUGHT. Then I did a bit of digging and came out of my hole feeling dirty and disappointed:
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/944272988983062528?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5E tweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E944272988983062528&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2018%2F0 1%2F06%2Fis-is-possible-to-twin-spell-booming-blade%2F

Dragon's breath can affect more than one creature with the exhalation. It therefore can't be twinned.

So...I don't know anymore. A lot of people don't like his ruling on that, but take that as it may.

[JackPhoenix]

Snip

I think you may be looking for this: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/04/11/can-i-use-twinned-spell-on-ice-knife/

[Man_Over_Game]

Thanks! More directly relevant, but effectively the same thing; twinned spell can ONLY work on a spell that magically affects AND targets only a single creature.

Which is really quite disappointing.

[Joe the Rat]

Crawford is flat wrong on dragon's breath. It targets one creature - the one you touch and transmute. It'd be like arguing you can't twin polymorph because there are creatures with multiattack.

He's been getting a little off of late.