Rainbow Servant "cleric spell access" questions

[mrcarter11]

So the language of rainbow servant's capstone feature is a little confusing and I wanted to make sure I understand exactly what it is allowing me/not allowing me to do. The class feature itself says, "Can learn and cast spells from the cleric spell list", how does that apply to a caster who is both a prepared caster(wizard) and a spontaneous caster (duskblade)? Would I be able to write cleric spells into my spellbook and then prepare them normally or metamagic'ed? And from the duskblade side, I'm assuming RAW I can't actually learn cleric spells for my spells known, but it seems like I could learn cleric spells from my "every odd level" swap?

[Nifft]

Would I be able to write cleric spells into my spellbook and then prepare them normally or metamagic'ed? Yes.


And from the duskblade side, I'm assuming RAW I can't actually learn cleric spells for my spells known, but it seems like I could learn cleric spells from my "every odd level" swap? You can learn Cleric spells for your spells known, and you can learn Cleric spells when you odd-level swap.

[16bearswutIdo]

>Wizard

Follows the same rules for learning new Arcane spells. You get them on level up and can scribe them from whatever legitimate source you find.

>Duskblade

You can learn cleric spells the same way you'd learn duskblade spells. Instead of picking something off your duskblade list, you could instead pick an appropriate spell off the cleric list.

Rainbow Servant has a stupidly good capstone.

[Grim Reader]

The above is correct. RAW is is a bit questionable if you can learn them when you get to swap out a spell known, because Duskblades are spontaneous casters, and spontaneous casters have to spend a spell pick when something lets them learn a divine spell. But I think most DMs will let you swap into Cleric spells after RS 10.

[mrcarter11]

DM was actually the one would felt that by RAW I can't learn cleric spells with my duskblade learning.

[Grim Reader]

DM was actually the one would felt that by RAW I can't learn cleric spells with my duskblade learning.

RAW you absolutely should be able to pick Cleric spells when you level up your Duskblade casting, either by taking levels in Duskblade or raising it with a PrC.

However, there is a strong argument RAW that you cannot swap out a spell known for a Ceric spell.

[mrcarter11]

Yeah his argument is essentially that PHB2 says I have to take spells from the duskblade list when I gain new ones, and while the class feature says I can learn cleric spells, dm doesn't feel that it applies. On the other hand, they don't seem to have an issue with swapping because it never makes any specific mention of having to be from the duskblade list.

[Grim Reader]

Yeah his argument is essentially that PHB2 says I have to take spells from the duskblade list when I gain new ones, and while the class feature says I can learn cleric spells, dm doesn't feel that it applies. On the other hand, they don't seem to have an issue with swapping because it never makes any specific mention of having to be from the duskblade list.

Rainbow Servant capstone overrides that. It is a listed exception to a general rule. Every class has to take spells from their own class list as general rule, unless overridden by specific texts. If his interpretation was correct, no spellcasting class could benefit from the RS capstone.

[mrcarter11]

Rainbow Servant capstone overrides that. It is a listed exception to a general rule. Every class has to take spells from their own class list as general rule, unless overridden by specific texts. If his interpretation was correct, no spellcasting class could benefit from the RS capstone.


Yeah his argument is essentially that PHB2 says I have to take spells from the duskblade list when I gain new ones, and while the class feature says I can learn cleric spells, dm doesn't feel that it applies. On the other hand, they don't seem to have an issue with swapping because it never makes any specific mention of having to be from the duskblade list.

Can't do much about it unfortunately.

[Nifft]

Can't do much about it unfortunately.

If your DM denies you the capstone, then ask your DM if you can just re-build to take a different class instead.

Clearly your DM doesn't like the class doing what the class very obviously intends to do. That's fine, the DM can ban a class. It's a shame you didn't learn this about your DM earlier, but whatever -- your DM wants to change the class, and so you ought to be allowed to change your character in response.

[mrcarter11]

Sorry for any misconceptions, the game hasn't even started yet. I am looking to play a rainbow servant still however. In their own words, it still works fine with the wizard, which means I can still prepare any cleric spells I desire. Admittedly not as advantageous as spontaneous casting the entire cleric spell list, but it isn't terrible. I'm currently just trying to decide if there are enough cleric spells that I'd want to be able to prepare.

[Caylin]

I think warmage is the classic entry for rainbow servant. They "know" their whole list and the prc simply expands that. Thus you get full warmage and cleric spells on a spontaneous caster. Under the assumption that text trumps table ofc.

[gkathellar]

I seem to recall an argument that Rainbow Servant doesn't work for wizard - something about the text not technically allowing you to record the spells in your book, or not being able to prepare the spells for some reason or another. I can't actually find the supporting text for this, though, so it's even more or a moot point than it would be otherwise.

[Crake]

I seem to recall an argument that Rainbow Servant doesn't work for wizard - something about the text not technically allowing you to record the spells in your book, or not being able to prepare the spells for some reason or another. I can't actually find the supporting text for this, though, so it's even more or a moot point than it would be otherwise.

It says they can "learn and cast spells on the cleric spell list", for wizards learning a spell involves writing it into your spellbook, so that's not a correct reading. There's literally 0 reading I can see that would prevent a duskblade from benefitting from from it as well. Ask your DM why wizards gain the benefit but duskblades do not? Ask him if a sorcerer would benefit? If a sorcerer would, then duskblades 100% should, since they practically learn and cast spells as sorcerers do.

[mrcarter11]

I think warmage is the classic entry for rainbow servant. They "know" their whole list and the prc simply expands that. Thus you get full warmage and cleric spells on a spontaneous caster. Under the assumption that text trumps table ofc.

I believe you are correct, I am however not a huge warmage fan. And in theory, I can learn the whole cleric list with enough xp to write the spells if I REALLY wanted to.


I seem to recall an argument that Rainbow Servant doesn't work for wizard - something about the text not technically allowing you to record the spells in your book, or not being able to prepare the spells for some reason or another. I can't actually find the supporting text for this, though, so it's even more or a moot point than it would be otherwise.


I see a lot of rainbow servant arguments, it was part of why I started this thread just to get direct replies I could source back to. I personally am not familiar with this argument and DM has already said they are cool with gaining cleric spells as a wizard.


It says they can "learn and cast spells on the cleric spell list", for wizards learning a spell involves writing it into your spellbook, so that's not a correct reading. There's literally 0 reading I can see that would prevent a duskblade from benefitting from from it as well. Ask your DM why wizards gain the benefit but duskblades do not? Ask him if a sorcerer would benefit? If a sorcerer would, then duskblades 100% should, since they practically learn and cast spells as sorcerers do.

The duskblade thing is specifically because of their "spells" wording, and the DM feeling it isn't a case of general verses specific. I believe this is the passage that lead to the ruling, but I'd have to double check with DM to make sure, "You cast arcane spells, which are drawn from the
duskblade spell list on page 98. You can cast any spell you
know without preparing it ahead of time.", I believe it is this part since the spell swapping language is different and says I can swap for any spell I can cast.

[Khedrac]

It's not completely RAW, but if you are looking at going Rainbow Servant with a duskblade/wizard using the wizard levels to qualify then it is a very reasonable ruling to say that the Cleric Spell Access only applies to the wizard casting (i.e. the qualifying casting); certainly the increase in casting ability does specify that it can only be applied to the qualifying class.

The OP clearly asks about a caster who is both spontaneous and prepared (wizard and duskblade) and if one assumes that only the wizard part can cast 3rd level spells when RS1 is taken then all of the casting boosts are restricted to wizard (even if Duskblade gets 3rds subsequently). As such, it is very reasonable to limit this to Wizard.

Aside from that, I would agree that RS + a class which can spontaneously cast from its entire list is both powerful and RAW and probably RAI.

[Grim Reader]

I think warmage is the classic entry for rainbow servant. They "know" their whole list and the prc simply expands that. Thus you get full warmage and cleric spells on a spontaneous caster. Under the assumption that text trumps table ofc.

I don't think that works. Warmages are spontaneous casters. Spontaneous casters must expend a spell pick for every divine spell they learn. And Warmages are even shorter on spell picks than Duskblades.


It's not completely RAW, but if you are looking at going Rainbow Servant with a duskblade/wizard using the wizard levels to qualify then it is a very reasonable ruling to say that the Cleric Spell Access only applies to the wizard casting (i.e. the qualifying casting); certainly the increase in casting ability does specify that it can only be applied to the qualifying class.


At the bolded: Whut? As far as I remember the relevant RS text is the standard text, not the Eldrich Knight.

Mccarter11, have you considered Ultimate Magus?

[Cosi]

I don't think that works. Warmages are spontaneous casters. Spontaneous casters must expend a spell pick for every divine spell they learn. And Warmages are even shorter on spell picks than Duskblades.

No, Warmages get no spell picks. None of the fixed list casters do. They add spells to their spell list, then automatically come to know them. Therefore, when Cleric Spell Access (or Prestige Domains) provide access to spells, they automatically learn them as well. The notion that they must use Advanced Learning picks is based on a failure to read the abilities correctly. Either the Rainbow Warsnake works, or the abilities in question do nothing at all. I don't know why you insist on staking out the middle ground, but it's not defensible if you read the abilities.

These classes do not pick spells known. Expanding the list of spells they can learn is always and in all ways the same as expanding the list of spells they know.

[Crake]

The duskblade thing is specifically because of their "spells" wording, and the DM feeling it isn't a case of general verses specific. I believe this is the passage that lead to the ruling, but I'd have to double check with DM to make sure, "You cast arcane spells, which are drawn from the
duskblade spell list on page 98. You can cast any spell you
know without preparing it ahead of time.", I believe it is this part since the spell swapping language is different and says I can swap for any spell I can cast.

Yes, and wizards say they can cast arcane spells which are drawn from the wizard spell list, clerics can cast spells drawn from the cleric spell list, etc etc. There's nothing unique about the wording of the duskblade's spell section.

[mrcarter11]

Mccarter11, have you considered Ultimate Magus?

Not offhand. I don't mind the prc, just isn't what I'm looking for. Granted, having cleric spell list might not be as interesting as I think it will be, but have to wait and see.

[Khedrac]

At the bolded: Whut? As far as I remember the relevant RS text is the standard text, not the Eldrich Knight.

Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new rainbow servant level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class in which she could cast 3rd-level arcane spells before she added the prestige class.

Underlining mine, but it is clear - if you enter Rainbow Servant as a Wizard 5 / Duskblade 1 / Beguiler 1 / Warmage 1 then RS can never be used to increase the casting of any class other than wizard.

[Grim Reader]

No, Warmages get no spell picks. None of the fixed list casters do. They add spells to their spell list, then automatically come to know them. Therefore, when Cleric Spell Access (or Prestige Domains) provide access to spells, they automatically learn them as well. The notion that they must use Advanced Learning picks is based on a failure to read the abilities correctly. Either the Rainbow Warsnake works, or the abilities in question do nothing at all. I don't know why you insist on staking out the middle ground, but it's not defensible if you read the abilities.

These classes do not pick spells known. Expanding the list of spells they can learn is always and in all ways the same as expanding the list of spells they know.

I'm not married to the interpretation that they can use advanced learnings as spell picks to get divine spells on their list. I just find it provides the capstone with some utility for the fixed-list casters as well, since its otherwise useless to them. Also, they can get some use out of the domains they get as they level.

There is no law saying that Rainbow Warsnake must work for the fixed-list casters. The fact that they do not pick spells known make them unable to take advantage of the Cleric spell access. Also the feature even specifies that the spells don't appear on his lists:
The character can learn and cast spells from the Cleric list even if they don't appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has.


Underlining mine, but it is clear - if you enter Rainbow Servant as a Wizard 5 / Duskblade 1 / Beguiler 1 / Warmage 1 then RS can never be used to increase the casting of any class other than wizard.

Huh. You are right. If I ever knew thta I had forgotten it. It does state that if you could cast arcane spells from more than one class you can pick, but how often is that going to come up?

[Cosi]

There is no law saying that Rainbow Warsnake must work for the fixed-list casters.

No, just the rules saying that.


The fact that they do not pick spells known make them unable to take advantage of the Cleric spell access. Also the feature even specifies that the spells don't appear on his lists:

That says the character may "learn and cast spells". The mechanism by which a Warmage learns spells is "automatically". All the ways in which a Warmage learns spells function automatically. As a result, an ability that generically allows the character to learn spells from some new source automatically provides all of those spells unless it specifies its own rules. Your logic would allow us to prohibit any class from using the capstone, as it never specifies those classes use their normal mechanism either.

If the ability said something like "when the character gains a new level, they may select spells from the Cleric list as new spells known", you'd be right. However, that's not what it says, and you're not right.

[Crake]

No, just the rules saying that.



That says the character may "learn and cast spells". The mechanism by which a Warmage learns spells is "automatically". All the ways in which a Warmage learns spells function automatically. As a result, an ability that generically allows the character to learn spells from some new source automatically provides all of those spells unless it specifies its own rules. Your logic would allow us to prohibit any class from using the capstone, as it never specifies those classes use their normal mechanism either.

If the ability said something like "when the character gains a new level, they may select spells from the Cleric list as new spells known", you'd be right. However, that's not what it says, and you're not right.

The problem arises with the fact that the cleric spells aren't added to his spell list, by the way the capstone ability works. It doesn't add the cleric spells to the warmage list, it merely enables the warmage to learn cleric spells, which makes the following line seem to counteract that point:


When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage's spell list.

However, the very next line then expands that more limited reading by making a broader ruling:


Essentially, his spell list is the same as his spells known list.

A warmage cannot have a spell on his spell list that he somehow does not know.

[Cosi]

The problem arises with the fact that the cleric spells aren't added to his spell list, by the way the capstone ability works.

Well, yes, the capstone ability isn't very precise. It says you "can learn" them. It doesn't say you can learn them via any particular mechanism. It would be perfectly consistent to say that the intended effect of the capstone is to allow characters to take Extra Spell to learn Cleric spells. But that's obviously wrong, because what it obviously means (and the way that even anti-Rainbow Warsnake posters interpret it for every other class), is that you can learn the spells via whatever your normal mechanism for learning spells is.


the following line seem to counteract that point:

If that line prevents Warmages gaining Cleric spells via Rainbow Servant, it would seem to me that it also prevents Advanced Learning from working because, as I have noted, Advanced Learning adds spells to a character's list rather than to their spells known. That's certainly a way you can interpret the text, but it seems to me that we should prefer an interpretation of the text that allows the class's abilities to function over one that doesn't. And once you accept a paradigm where Advanced Learning works, you can't carve out exceptions for Cleric Spell Access (or Prestige Domains).


A warmage cannot have a spell on his spell list that he somehow does not know.

Yes. Which means that, by extension, the Warmage's method of spell acquisition is to learn all available spells immediately. Therefore, when he is afforded some new set of spells to learn from (absent some defined mechanism for learning those spells), he learns them immediately. Just as when a Sorcerer is afforded some new set of spells to learn from, she may spend her spells known learning those spells.

Basically, Grim Reader is right that the ability hooks into the class's native mechanism for learning new spells. He just doesn't understand what that mechanism is, because he seems to have assumed that Advanced Learning said something other than what it actually says.

[Crake]

If that line prevents Warmages gaining Cleric spells via Rainbow Servant, it would seem to me that it also prevents Advanced Learning from working because, as I have noted, Advanced Learning adds spells to a character's list rather than to their spells known. That's certainly a way you can interpret the text, but it seems to me that we should prefer an interpretation of the text that allows the class's abilities to function over one that doesn't. And once you accept a paradigm where Advanced Learning works, you can't carve out exceptions for Cleric Spell Access (or Prestige Domains).

I think you misinterpreted what I was saying, I was counteracting the previous point I made, not the point you were making, in essence, agreeing with your stance.