I once killed a Tarrasque with a Knife (Build Idea)

[Jcp1195]

Hey all!

So I recently saw a Knife Thrower build for 5e on Nerdarchy's Youtube channel and while I though it was good it was also a bit... bland. So I decided to try coming up with one myself and I think I'm getting there, but I wanted to see if anyone else wanted to chip in with ideas. Disclaimer: My idea isn't as powerful DPS wise, but flavor wise I think this would be much more fun to play.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Background would be Entertainer or Criminal, depending on how you wanted to spin the character.

The race, obviously, would be human (Though pretty much any Dex buffing race would work, especially Wood Elf or Kenku for this particular build). You could start pretty much with any feat to begin with but I'd personally take either Dual Wielder or Sharpshooter, depending on whether you wanted to start with throwing or start with stabbing and work into it.

As for class levels (These are in no particular order, however I do recommend starting with Rogue), I think the optimal choices here for a level 20 character are 4 levels Rogue, 10 levels Fighter, and 6 levels Monk... I know this might seem a bit odd but let me explain.

Rogue: Starting with Rogue you get your 4 skills and Expertise which are a huge help, Cunning Action, Sneak attack, and for Subclass we're going to be looking at Swashbuckler. Scout is also a viable choice, possibly better, but for the character I have in mind, Swashbuckler is more fitting for their swarthy, smack-talking, roguish personality and more befitting an entertainer. This gives you a free disengage for the times you decide Melee is important (Say when fighting a Monk or someone with Gloves of Missile Snaring, or in a spell/Weather effect that makes Ranged impossible) and Sneak attack whenever you want it. What could be better?

Fighter: While already good, Fighter is where you really start to take off. You get 2 Fighting Styles since we're taking Champion (You want Two-Weapon Fighter and Archery), Second Wind, Action Surge, 3 ABIs, Extra Attack, Indomitable, and a higher Critical Range. Being just one level out of that second Extra Attack hurts a bit, but I still think it's necessary for what comes next.

Monk: We're going for mobility. You want to be constantly moving, whether hitting and running or repositioning to get that nice Throwing Knife in. Monk helps this in many ways, not to mention giving you that nice bump to AC (which is why I recommend taking a level in Monk Early). And if you haven't guessed it already, we're going to be taking Path of the Kensei. At level three, you make your Knives a Kensei weapon (and some useless Ranged weapon you won't be using), and at level 6 you can make those Short swords you've probably been carrying around for melee Kensei weapons as well. At level 3 you get Agile Parry for Melee, and Kensei's Shot when throwing your knives, but level 6 is the important part. You get Magic Kensei Weapons. Playing a Knife thrower you're going to be wanting to carry around a good supply of Knifes, maybe 10, maybe 20 if you're paranoid. If you're playing Adventures League and expect to make all of them Magical, you're looking at 500 GP a Knife (Or 10,000 Gold for 20 if you don't like math). Sure, Monk doesn't make them +1s or higher, not until level 11 at least which you won't be seeing, but having a 2GP magic Knife, along with level 6's Deft Strike still gives you a nice 1d4+1d6+2d6(Sneak Attack)+Dex with a crit rate of 19-20. You won't be replacing your level 20 Paladin on Damage alone, but you can still be an incredible ranged unit, not to mention a pretty damn good Hit-and-Runner.

Recommended Feats:

If I were going to build this character right now, I'd take Dual Wielder, Sharpshooter, Mobile, Skulker, Defensive Duelist, and Savage Attacker. Not necessarily in that order, but those seem to be the ones that stand out the most for everything you might want to be doing.

I also realize that not everyone Rolls for stats, some of you might be Point Buying so feel free to space in some ABI's and pick and choose the feats however you want to play it.

Alternate ideas: If you decide that you don't want to be a dashingly handsome, or radiantly beautiful dervish with a loud mouth, and you'd rather kill your enemies nice and quiet with a Knife to the throat from 60 feet away, you might consider going 15 levels Rogue, 5 levels Fighter

Going Assassin and Champion specifically, (with Archery Fighting Style), you've got some pretty nasty stealth DPS. 4 Sneak attacks in one round (Yes only the first does the bonus damage, but the advantage does make that heightened crit range more desirable). before you move to another spot and wait for your tank to draw aggro is pretty nice, especially if you've got Surprise on your side.

After that it's as easy as focusing on ranged and stealth feats, maybe even Prodigy if you're THAT scared of getting less than a 15 total on a stealth check. Thank the Gods for Reliable Talent.
---

Additionally, lets say that, while you like the First idea, you feel like you want a more... Aggressive, maybe more criminal, murderous character (Basically, you want to try outclassing your level 20 Paladin by using a Knife). In that case it's easy as ditching those 6 Monk levels and taking up 2 more of Rogue (For that sweet Uncanny Dodge, extra Expertise, and 3d6 Sneak Attack), and 4 of Ranger, taking us to 6 Rogue, 10 Fighter, 4 Ranger OR 11 Fighter 3 Ranger if you really don't care about that last ABI/Feat.

Now this one can be a little different:

Rogue: I still prefer Swashbuckler for this. It keeps you good in Melee and it gives you ample time to use that Uncanny Dodge when you just cant outrun something after stabbing it in the sweet meats.

Fighter: Again, it's fine as is. You still get those two fighting styles, HOWEVER, if you want to be something else there's no reason you can't since you'll be taking Ranger. Maybe take Battle Master for those Maneuvers and extra damage, Hell, take Cavalier, get a nice Mount, and draw aggro as a Knife-Wielding Rogue, who's going to stop you? You should certainly have the HP to make a decent go of it before riding out to 60 feet and throwing again. And if you decide to go 11 Fighter, 3 Ranger, you've got that sweet, sweet Extra Attack (2).

Ranger: There's actually quite a few things you can do here. Obviously we'll be taking it for the Fighting Style and that wonderful Hunter's Mark spell (Good, not good enough to waste an ABI on Magic Initiate), but the Subclass is more or less up to you:

Hunter (Colossus Slayer specifically) Has that nice, reliable once per turn DPS that factors in well with Sneak Attack and enhanced Crit Range. By that same reasoning though you could go Gloom Stalker but you only get that benefit on your first turn. Horizon Walker is also good but is Planar Warrior really worth giving up your Offhand Knife Toss for Force damage on your first attack and an extra 1d8? Sure not much resists force, but at higher levels, especially if you're a more morally nebulous character, you should have more than enough coin for those shiny magic knives. And of course Monster Slayer is... Honestly just as good as Hunter if you don't go beyond level 3 at least. It's less DPS but knowing your enemy's Strengths and Weaknesses is Half, maybe a quarter of the battle.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway I digress. Thank you all for reading the ramblings of a mad man! Especially if you made it all the way down here. I do actually plan on using one of these builds in the near future so if anyone has any comments, criticisms, ideas, thoughts, feel free to throw them my way. Thanks again and happy playing!

[Lille]

Archery's +2, as well as Sharpshooter's -5/+10, won't apply to a thrown dagger. They both require a ranged weapon, not a ranged weapon attack, and even when thrown a dagger just counts as a melee weapon. Similarly, Savage Attacker doesn't apply to thrown weapons, because it requires a melee weapon attack, not a melee weapon.

Note: At 5th Monk level, a dagger's damage (melee or thrown) increases to 1d6, rather than 1d4.

With a Monk/Ranger, Horde Breaker can be a pretty good choice. The more attacks you make, the more useful Kensei's bonus action damage boost is. Gloom Stalker can also be good there - while it's not as reliable, it does give a few other benefits, particularly for a sneaky character. And even without Monk levels, Gloom Stalker's extra attack is decent for getting just a little bit more out of Hunter's Mark.

Improved Critical isn't as good with daggers, since they don't do much damage per hit. Battlemaster could be a better choice, allowing you to add some fancy Maneuvers to your repertoire of tricks.

[R.Shackleford]

Archery's +2, as well as Sharpshooter's -5/+10, won't apply to a thrown dagger. They both require a ranged weapon, not a ranged weapon attack, and even when thrown a dagger just counts as a melee weapon. Similarly, Savage Attacker doesn't apply to thrown weapons, because it requires a melee weapon attack, not a melee weapon.

Note: At 5th Monk level, a dagger's damage (melee or thrown) increases to 1d6, rather than 1d4.

With a Monk/Ranger, Horde Breaker can be a pretty good choice. The more attacks you make, the more useful Kensei's bonus action damage boost is. Gloom Stalker can also be good there - while it's not as reliable, it does give a few other benefits, particularly for a sneaky character. And even without Monk levels, Gloom Stalker's extra attack is decent for getting just a little bit more out of Hunter's Mark.

Improved Critical isn't as good with daggers, since they don't do much damage per hit. Battlemaster could be a better choice, allowing you to add some fancy Maneuvers to your repertoire of tricks.

This is why I hate 5e's rules lawyerish ways that really pick on martial abilities.

For spells you generally just *cast the spell* but anything not magic? Better get the lawyer background.

Same thing with feats. Ugh.

[Dudewithknives]

Not being able to draw your weapons is going to be an issue.

No thrown weapons are considered ammunition, so you have to spend an object interaction to draw.
So at most without using magic abilities, you can only draw 2 a turn.

Most dms, find the idea of being able to draw an arrow free but a dart costing an action to be stupid so they consider ranged thrown weapons ammunition.

Essentially in 5e, you are not going to be able to make a competitive thrower unless you just go mostly rogue who only get one attack a round anyway.

Also there is no item for making them returning so no way to keep using a magic one.

I would probably go mostly rogue and maybe eldritch knight to 3 or 4. Use shield and javelin/dager, and throw once a turn but make it a very good throw, use a bonus action to summon it back.
or.
Just go all rogue, swashbuckler. Use a dagger/javelin, and just make that one big attack, but back to issue of keeping your magic weapon.

[Lille]

This is why I hate 5e's rules lawyerish ways that really pick on martial abilities.

For spells you generally just *cast the spell* but anything not magic? Better get the lawyer background.

Same thing with feats. Ugh.

I agree, and if I run a game a have a standard house rule of "If you have fun with it, and it doesn't stop anyone else from having fun, then go ahead". Even so, it's generally better to know what might not be allowed in some games, to better prepare for that.

Personally, I'd allow Archery+Sharpshooter, as well as allowing a character to hold/draw more weapons than they normally could, because thrown weapons in 5e really need whatever they can get.

[Unoriginal]

This is why I hate 5e's rules lawyerish ways that really pick on martial abilities.

For spells you generally just *cast the spell* but anything not magic? Better get the lawyer background.

Same thing with feats. Ugh.

Yeah, right, because if there is one thing that doesn't happen with spells and magic, it's ridiculous rule lawyering.



There is almost nothing rule lawyerish about martial abilities. They just chose terms that were a bit too similar, which can cause some confusion if you forgot that fact, but the abilities themselves are clear and don't open for rule lawyering most of the time. At most there are questions about how the timing of some feats works, but that's about it.

[Trampaige]

Archery's +2, as well as Sharpshooter's -5/+10, won't apply to a thrown dagger. They both require a ranged weapon, not a ranged weapon attack, and even when thrown a dagger just counts as a melee weapon. Similarly, Savage Attacker doesn't apply to thrown weapons, because it requires a melee weapon attack, not a melee weapon.

Note: At 5th Monk level, a dagger's damage (melee or thrown) increases to 1d6, rather than 1d4.

With a Monk/Ranger, Horde Breaker can be a pretty good choice. The more attacks you make, the more useful Kensei's bonus action damage boost is. Gloom Stalker can also be good there - while it's not as reliable, it does give a few other benefits, particularly for a sneaky character. And even without Monk levels, Gloom Stalker's extra attack is decent for getting just a little bit more out of Hunter's Mark.

Improved Critical isn't as good with daggers, since they don't do much damage per hit. Battlemaster could be a better choice, allowing you to add some fancy Maneuvers to your repertoire of tricks.

Darts, however, do count as ranged weapons. It would be reasonable enough (given the rules for using improvised weapons is DM discretion) to treat them like daggers when wielded as a melee weapon.

The improved critical is probably there to double sneak attack dice.

Fighter 1/hunter ranger 2/inquisitive rogue 17 with archery, dual wielding, sharpshooter, and dual wielder could drop insightful fighting on the first turn with their bonus action, and then have two chances per round to deliver their 12d6 sneak attack, taking the -5/+10 on the second attack if the first hits. You could even use hunter's mark if your first attack of the round lands to buff subsequent rounds. For games not planning to go to 20 (as they generally don't), you might take an extra fighter level for action surge so you can throw two weapons on the same turn you use insightful fighting, and/or or take another level of ranger for colossus slayer/hunter's prey, or go to ranger 4 to double your spell slots. In general, your bonus action is pretty tied up so actually using hunter's mark or prey has a hefty opportunity cost. Horizon walker 3 is also an option to deal with the magic weapon problem, it costs you a bonus action but you're dealing your entire sneak attack as force damage.

Thinking about it horizon walker 5 isn't a terrible idea. You would get to make two attacks even if your bonus action is tied up, you'd get more spell slots which you could use easier with two guaranteed attacks, and you could cast darkvision assuming you're a human. And you could throw two darts plus item interaction bonus action throw on the first round of combat, or any time you're able to draw weapons without making two attacks.

[R.Shackleford]

Yeah, right, because if there is one thing that doesn't happen with spells and magic, it's ridiculous rule lawyering.



There is almost nothing rule lawyerish about martial abilities. They just chose terms that were a bit too similar, which can cause some confusion if you forgot that fact, but the abilities themselves are clear and don't open for rule lawyering most of the time. At most there are questions about how the timing of some feats works, but that's about it.

Whenever you cast a spell as a bonus action, that's it. You use the bonus action. Reaction spells or magic abilities typically have broad triggers (reaction to an attack, damage, or casting a spell).

However, look at tavern brawler and shield master. One is based on a hit with a improvised melee weapon (very specific) and the other can be used after you take the Attack action. You have very specific triggers that just complicate matters and have people arguing RAI/RAW/RoC/Whatever till the goblins come home.

Take away the rules lawyerese and you can set up the game to be much simpler. And much more fair.

Tavern Brawler: Bonus Action Grapple with a free hand.

Shield Master: Bonus Action Shove with a shield.

The only restriction on bonus action spells is that you can't then cast an action spell. Spells are much more diverse than just attacking, though you can still bonus action spell + cantrip.

5e is chalked full of these sorts of things on the martial side of abilities. I mean, look at the (original) wording of Whirlwind Attack from the ranger and tell me how that isn't multiple attacks (as you roll for each target) and why I can't move in between attack rolls. We could go on for weeks debating that little bit of bull crap (and no, I don't really care what the devs say on it as they go against their own wording).

5e is good, but can be so much better without the mumbo jumbo that clutters the game.

[Jcp1195]

So here’s an important clarification that I did not realize: Archery does not work, however, Sharpshooter DOES work. Mostly.

The first two abilities of Sharpshooter specify “Ranged Weapon Attacks” which throwing a Knife or Handaxe is.

However the -5, +10 does not work because it requires a “Ranged Weapon” which a dagger unfortunately is not.

So sorry about that. I’ll concede that I messed up big time there but hey, it’s still helpful, just not so much. Damn those ancient DragonSuing lawyers.

[Specter]

You should never take Savage Attacker. I mean... I literally can't think of a single case where it's better than another feat or ASI.

[Kadesh]

My favourite part of those rules is making a Sharpshooter Attack with a improvised weapon melee attack with the bow and also getting +2 to hit from the Fighting style.